Does anyone have any definitive documentation that knotting between
pearls (on a strand) was actually done?  I'm thinking of teaching a
small class how to do this mainly for the security of not losing pearls
and preventing them from damaging each other, but I can't find any proof
that it was done.  It would make sense that it *was* done before 1600 as
it's not hard to do, just fiddly, but this doesn't mean that they did
so.  Any clues??

Cheers,
~ Tyghra

Hi Tyg,

I think the plural is crucifix.

They're pretty cool :-)


Regards Charles

Tyghra na Tintagel wrote:

>>From the 12th Century list -
>
>Swedish crucifii (what *is* the plural of crucifix?) for those who are
>looking for this sort of thing.  Personally I love the armpit spirals.
>>From Oland with reproductions of them here:
>http://www.hr-replikate.de/katalog/indep/detail.php?image=060&oversize=1
>
>Cheers,
>~ Tyg
>
>

From the 12th Century list -

Swedish crucifii (what *is* the plural of crucifix?) for those who are
looking for this sort of thing.  Personally I love the armpit spirals.
From Oland with reproductions of them here:
http://www.hr-replikate.de/katalog/indep/detail.php?image=060&oversize=1

Cheers,
~ Tyg

http://www.jewelryhistorian.com/books.htm#Tait

One of our new members has the above website.  Go look see.  It's got
lots of useful stuff!

Cheers,

~ Tyg

This is all very nice, but due to the mist of time this all conjecture.
Nothing wrong with conjecture, until you're asked to prove it ;-)  Charles

Damian Forlani-Brennan wrote:

>Julian Wilson writes:
>"That website makes no mention of the classical references by Pliny and
>others to a "shiny, light,  metal" said to have been 'stronger than the
>finest bronze, the best iron, the rare & highly-prized steel'  - which are
>thought by some Classical Scholars to refer to accidental discoveries of
>aluminum/aluminium in the Classical Period.  The Emperior Tiberias is said
>to have ordered the execution of one such "accidental Discoverer" - said to
>have been a Master Goldsmith."
>
>As aluminium is far softer than iron or steel so I'm thinking Pliny was
>actually referring to early forms of stainless steel - possibly made from
>meteoric iron deposits.  Its absolutely as likely as that they were refining
>aluminium with the technology available at the time.
>
>R.
>
>

Julian Wilson writes:
"That website makes no mention of the classical references by Pliny and
others to a "shiny, light,  metal" said to have been 'stronger than the
finest bronze, the best iron, the rare & highly-prized steel'  - which are
thought by some Classical Scholars to refer to accidental discoveries of
aluminum/aluminium in the Classical Period.  The Emperior Tiberias is said
to have ordered the execution of one such "accidental Discoverer" - said to
have been a Master Goldsmith."

As aluminium is far softer than iron or steel so I'm thinking Pliny was
actually referring to early forms of stainless steel - possibly made from
meteoric iron deposits.  Its absolutely as likely as that they were refining
aluminium with the technology available at the time.

R.

Charles said -
> The word "incentivation" - No matter how many times our Prime Minister
> uses it, it doesn't make it a real word.  Why add this one here?  It
> will go down as a historical moment that shows that our Prime Minister
> is an ass.

I *knew* there was a good reason not to watch/read about Australian
politics.  D'you think that Little Johnny is picking up Bushisms?

Back on topic -
I haven't seen anyone mention anything about the supposed Russian (?)
headset of regalia made from aluminium.  I've only got hearsay on this
one.  The story goes that because it was so expensive to produce
aluminium, it made the crowns worth more than gold.  It's a neat tale
but probably a load of rubbish.  However, where there's smoke, often
there's... something worth checking out with a hose in hand.

Damn this dialup.  Apologies if it takes me a while to answer or sign up
members (welcome to the flurry of new people who have just joined us!)

Cheers,
~ Tyghra

COMMENT

Yes,well, having to revise one's High School education isn't a new thing. It happened to me, for example, - probably before you were born.

I have the feeling that this kind of re-assessing process will become more and more frequent, as research sources become more available through library digitising of manuscripts and books, and the Internet, and the increasingly inter-disciplinary nature of Research made much easier thereby..
Charles Anderson - in another Posting - wrote " Napoleon made swords from pure aluminium, as it was considered a new metal and would have special properties".  That was a historic note which I'd not heard previously. [ I wonder which "Napoleon" that was - 1,2, or the ill-fated 3?]

here's my personal example of mis-information given at High School, and subsequent re-assessment.

Our Family were great enthusiasts for the writings of Rudyard Kipling. and as a small boy living in Essex, the son of a Marine Engineer who owned a fleet of day-trippers "pleasure boats", and of inshore trawlers - I was well aware that much of the Essex Coastline had been reclaimed from the sea by immigrant Engineers from the Low Countries "djyking" the coastal marches in the 16th & 17th Centuries. So I was particularly struck by Kipling's poems in which he makes fleeting mention of the Goodwin Sands having been an Island in the time of the Saxon Eorl Godwin. "Overflown by the sea" because the dykes were not maintained.

So I brought-up the question in High School Geography Class,  - I was about 12 yrs old at the time - and got sharply "slapped-down" with the comment from the Geography Teacher that "rises in sea levels only took place in 'geological ' timescales, and not within Human History, - and so the idea of a significant rise in sea levels in the Dark Ages was scientific nonsense".

It wasn't until some years later when  I was doing my first Degree at Bishop Otter College in Chichester, Sussex, I got involved with the Sussex Archaeological Society, and was shown Roman ruins, including a well, actually on the beach, near Pagham Harbour. Who would dig a well on a beach? Certainly not the hard-headed Roman Engineers, surely? Either there had been substantial coastal erosion, or a rise in sea levels since Roman times.

Then I found out that a medieval Bishop of Chichester had petitioned King William II for relief from Taxes of "12 parishes overflown by the Sea in the times of our Forefathers, and now under the Wave, off the Island of Seals Eye" [modern Selsey Bill]. King William  ordered a Royal Commission to investigate, which found the claim proven, and the taxes were remitted.

Both of these facts pointed to a rise in sea levels during the Dark Ages.

When I came to live in Jersey, and started travelling to nearby France, I found that the Breton and Norman Historians still had good Dark Ages ecclesiatical records of the sea breaking through the high ground between Granville and Cancale, and forming the Bay of Mont St, Michel, drowning the ancient Forest of Broceliande, and the Roman Road which had run through it.

So my High School Geography Teacher, who had slapped-down the 12-year-old me with such authority, was proven wrong, and I had to alter what I'd learned from him about changes in sea-levels and their time scales. And perhaps Kipling was right, and the Goodwin Sands were once Eorl Godwin's Isle, a useful stopping-off point on the Dark Age  voyages between Kent and Armorica.

Aluminium salts have been used since antiquity.  Aluminium as a metal is
a relatively late development.

Napoleon made swords from pure aluminium, as it was considered a new
metal and would have special properties.  Pure aluminium swords were not
a good idea.


Regards Charles from Oz

Julian wrote:

>Gentles of the List,
>over on the Paternosters List, there is a discussion going on about the
>possible use of Aluminium in strings of prayer beads.
>A contributor has expressed an interest in knowing of contemporarey
>references to the metal prior to the 1800's.
>I recall reading of a huge reward offered by Napoleon Buonaparte for
>anyone who could turn the laboratory process into a large-scale
>industrial one. but no details of earlier mentions, when I believe
>Aluminium was regarded a a precious metal,(just as Titanium used to be,
>more recently).
> Can any of you noble Sages enlighten the Gentles of the Paternosters
>List concerning the History of Aluminium?
>
>

Thanks for your discussion here.
Ok. It seems that I may need to to revise my high school education. I
was always taught that Al was discovered in "modern times". Despite
being abundant in the earth's crust, yada yada yada!

I'm not aware of any of the references you cite but it may make a fun
research point. My feeling is that Al would not have been used at all in
classical or medieval times as it is so reactive that is couldn't have
been isolated to form ingots merely with the techniques available.
Modern Al is produced with electricity. I know that some Al can be made
with chemical techniques but it takes a lot of materials and effort.

Lets open the discussion here as I'm keen to know but pretty sceptical
about the likelihood.

Rodrigo



On Mon, 2007-02-12 at 00:39, julian wilson wrote:
> Dear Mr. Brown,
> Thank you very much for your prompt reply.
> That website makes no mention of the classical references by Pliny and
> others to a "shiny, light,  metal" said to have been 'stronger than
> the finest bronze, the best iron, the rare & highly-prized steel'  -
> which are thought by some Classical Scholars to refer to accidental
> discoveries of aluminum/aluminium in the Classical Period.
> The Emperior Tiberias is said to have ordered the execution of one
> such "accidental Discoverer" - said to have been a Master Goldsmith.
> I forget the  Greek and Latin literary references which I recall being
> cited during my Classical education, decades ago, otherwise I'd quote
> them for you. In the decades since, I do recall having come across
> other fleeting references to the same accidental discovery having been
> independantly-made in ancient India, and Ancient China.
> So that History given at the World Aluminium wbesite could be compared
> to a "History of the Steam Turbine" which doesn't mention Hero of
> Alexandria, but begins instead with Charles Parsons and the SY
> "Turbinia".
>
> Yours gratefully,
> Julian Wilson,
> isolated in "Old Jersey"
>
> james brown <jaybe62@...> wrote:
>         Whats to Know?
>         http://www.world-aluminium.org/history/index.html
>
>         Unknown in Period!
>
>         Rodrigo
>
>         On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 20:17, Julian wrote:
>         > Gentles of the List,
>         > over on the Paternosters List, there is a discussion going
>         on about
>         > the
>         > possible use of Aluminium in strings of prayer beads.
>         > A contributor has expressed an interest in knowing of
>         contemporarey
>         > references to the metal prior to the 1800's.
>         > I recall reading of a huge reward offered by Napoleon
>         Buonaparte for
>         > anyone who could turn the laboratory process into a
>         large-scale
>         > industrial one. but no details of earlier mentions, when I
>         believe
>         > Aluminium was regarded a a precious metal,(just as Titanium
>         used to
>         > be,
>         > more recently).
>         > Can any of you noble Sages enlighten the Gentles of the
>         Paternosters
>         > List concerning the History of Aluminium?
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
>         >
>
>
>
>
>

Whats to Know?
http://www.world-aluminium.org/history/index.html

Unknown in Period!

Rodrigo

On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 20:17, Julian wrote:
> Gentles of the List,
> over on the Paternosters List, there is a discussion going on about
> the
> possible use of Aluminium in strings of prayer beads.
> A contributor has expressed an interest in knowing of contemporarey
> references to the metal prior to the 1800's.
> I recall reading of a huge reward offered by Napoleon Buonaparte for
> anyone who could turn the laboratory process into a large-scale
> industrial one. but no details of earlier mentions, when I believe
> Aluminium was regarded a a precious metal,(just as Titanium used to
> be,
> more recently).
> Can any of you noble Sages enlighten the Gentles of the Paternosters
> List concerning the History of Aluminium?
>
>
>
>
>

Whats to Know?
http://www.world-aluminium.org/history/index.html


Unknown in Period!

Rodrigo




On Sun, 2007-02-11 at 20:17, Julian wrote:
> Gentles of the List,
> over on the Paternosters List, there is a discussion going on about
> the
> possible use of Aluminium in strings of prayer beads.
> A contributor has expressed an interest in knowing of contemporarey
> references to the metal prior to the 1800's.
> I recall reading of a huge reward offered by Napoleon Buonaparte for
> anyone who could turn the laboratory process into a large-scale
> industrial one. but no details of earlier mentions, when I believe
> Aluminium was regarded a a precious metal,(just as Titanium used to
> be,
> more recently).
> Can any of you noble Sages enlighten the Gentles of the Paternosters
> List concerning the History of Aluminium?
>
>
>
>
>

Gentles of the List,
over on the Paternosters List, there is a discussion going on about the
possible use of Aluminium in strings of prayer beads.
A contributor has expressed an interest in knowing of contemporarey
references to the metal prior to the 1800's.
I recall reading of a huge reward offered by Napoleon Buonaparte for
anyone who could turn the laboratory process into a large-scale
industrial one. but no details of earlier mentions, when I believe
Aluminium was regarded a a precious metal,(just as Titanium used to be,
more recently).
  Can any of you noble Sages enlighten the Gentles of the Paternosters
List concerning the History of Aluminium?

Here is Tristan's explanation for Muntz Metal...

> Muntz metal, often referred to as "commercial bronze" is 60% copper,
> 40% zinc. It is commonly used for fabricated architectural fixtures,
> particularly elevator doors an surrounds. The reason why this brass
> alloy is often referred to as bronze is because of it's good color match
> to a 60/40 bronze alloy that was typically used for door handles and
> other hardware when oxidized with selenium oxide. The color is in fact
> now known as "storefront bronze". I have made many spoons from muntz
> metal. I cold forge them, annealing when necessary. It work hardens
> quite nicely, and will ring like a bell when hard.
> Yours, Tristan
> ------------------------------
> ekmg mailing list
> ekmg@...
> http://lists.eastkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/ekmg

Does anyone here know what 'muntz'
is? It's alloy components etc?

.

Science and Technology Dictionary

Muntz metal (¡äməns ¡ämed¡¤əl)

(metallurgy) A 60/40 type of brass composed of 58-61% copper, up to 1% lead, and remainder zinc. Also known as malleable brass; yellow metal.

 

YIS,

Matthew, in "old" Jersey

In a discussion about Plique a Jour enamelling on the East Kingdom
Metalsmiths Guild list, I asked about how one person overcame the zinc
discoloration that occurs when enamelling at high temperatures on
standard brass.  Gilding metal (which has less zinc in the alloy) is one
way but he mentions 'muntz' metal.  Does anyone here know what 'muntz'
is? It's alloy components etc?

I wish the low temp enamelling powders hadn't been discontinued for
import into Australia due to lack of interest.  Might look into
importing them myself.

~ Tyg

> Tyghra wrote:
>
>    1. Re: RE: plique a jour
> Can I ask a further question to do with enamelling with brass. How do
> you not get the zinc bubbling up spoiling the colours?  Are you using
> low temperature enamels suitable for brass (unfortunately not available
> in Australia) or are you using gilding metal perhaps?
>
> regards,
>
> ~ Tyghra
>
> My Reply:
> With the plique a jour, since the only are coming into contact with the
> brass is around the edge of the cut-out, it wasn't an issue. I ddin't
> file smooth my saw cuts, and that gives the edge a little tooth for the
> enamel to hold too. In trying to enamel on brass sheet, the only thing
> that I found to work was the same process as reduction guilding: heating
> and quenching in acid repeatedly to remove the zinc from the surface
> until it looks like copper; and that only worked with small pieces. For
> the maunche medallion, I cut through the brass and soldered it onto a
> copper backer. I use the same technique with silver, because it greatly
> reduces the silver content in my pieces, making this more affordable for
> me (I don't sell anything)I also find that the thick cloisons that this
> gives me hold the transparent enamels thickly enough that their color is
> greatly enhanced. I'm planning some brass and enamel pieces styled after
> the gold and garnet pieces form Suton Hoo using this technique. The
> alloy I'm using, by the way, is muntz metal. It has a nice golden color
> and great durability, and takes a nice polish.
> Yours, Tristan deWarrell
>
> _______________________________________________
> ekmg mailing list
> ekmg@...
> http://lists.eastkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/ekmg

Could always go to Sandy's sight (can never remember the spelling
"Froegel"? :-(  ), lot's of images there :-)   Charles

Scott Jaqua wrote:

>Tyghra na Tintagel wrote:
>
> > For those with the money and time to go North and look for the real
> > McCoy or rather, the real McNorseman!
> > The cds from arkeodok are brilliant for metalwork and other areas of
> > norse interest.
>
>I can second that on the CD's. The knife CD has photos of artifacts,
>drawings, reconstructions and articles on the context in which the
>knives were found.
>
>Njall
>
>

Tyghra na Tintagel wrote:

  > For those with the money and time to go North and look for the real
  > McCoy or rather, the real McNorseman!
  > The cds from arkeodok are brilliant for metalwork and other areas of
  > norse interest.

I can second that on the CD's. The knife CD has photos of artifacts,
drawings, reconstructions and articles on the context in which the
knives were found.

Njall

For those with the money and time to go North and look for the real
McCoy or rather, the real McNorseman!
The cds from arkeodok are brilliant for metalwork and other areas of
norse interest.

~ Tyg

> Dear Viking friends,
> In the middle of winter, with half a meter snow outside my window and
> a temperature well below freezing point, it is nice to start thinking
> of a warm summer day, on one's knee looking into the daily life of the
> Viking People! We are getting closer to the summer's programme about the
> archaeological field courses on the island of Gotland, Sweden.
>
> For some years, we have been excavating the Viking Port of trade at
> Frojel, with some tremendous fascinating discoveries (among all, we
> have now registrered som 33 000 objects in our database and excavated
> about 100 graves). The excavations are now finished, and we will start a
> new project, while at the same time working on reports about Frojel.
>
> Now the time has come to get a better picture of the houses and farms
> in Viking Age. It might seem strange, but in spite of the tremendous
> rich material from Viking Age from Gotland, we know rather little about
> houses and farms. So, for som years to come, we will carry out
> designated studies of houses from Viking Age.
>
> Coming summer, we will start to investigate a farm up in the northern
> part of Gotland, where a silver hoard from Viking Age was found a few
> years ago, containing more then a 1000 coins. The hoard was found in
> a Viking Age house, and now we will investigate the remains of the
> hoard and try to get a better idea about house constructions etc.
>
> We are now opening up for application to our courses, that will take
> place in July and August in a bit different ways. Please check out
> the information and application form at
> http://www.arkeodok.com/Discoveryprogramme.html.
>
> I would very much appreciate any help you can give me to spread the
> information about the course. If you have any questions, please don't
> hesitate to contact me. Hope to see you next summer at a fascinating
> excavation site!
>
> Dan Carlsson

A friend dropped around some polishing compounds that he used for sharpening fine scientific saw blades (the things they use for dissections).  I have found this great at putting a sheen on my helm.

The small section brass tube can be purchased at most modeling and hobby shops in Australia, they normally have a small stand with different sections of brass, copper and aluminium about a foot long.

 

Leofric

>>
http://www.dirk-kennis.be/b1.html
<<

Thanks Tyghra.

I liked window shopping at these, though only window shopping as the
price is just a "tad" high.

Quite inspirational with metal stuff from 6th century onwards, as
well as other medieval artifacts - including stone bits of building,
wood sculptures, all for sale.

But what wasn't obvious at first glance is that the enlargements
(sometimes but not always) have the front and reverse, so very
worthwhile also from that perspective.

So I actually saved images of one of the brooches and the dragon. :)

Regards
Brian
<SPACE RESERVED FOR RENT>

Tyghra na Tintagel wrote:

>~ Tyghra
>ps would love to hear people discussing glass beadmaking on the Metallum
>list (yahoo group Metallum_Lochac).  I need help to balance the
>armourers v jewellers ratio!
>

Ha harrr! (with the best swashbuckling laugh the internet can muster).

I'm a Cutler mainly... so will I be left out in the cold? :-)


Regards Charles
P.S.  I could always glue some pretty beads onto grips :-)

Hey,
He’s talking about wood! I thought this was a metal working list :-)
I can’t talk I’m building a boat.
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2107289229
Leofric

Nice little boat! There'll be some metal used at *some* stage, surely!
<remembering attaching sacrificial anodes to a hull many moons ago> Nails?
~ Tyg

Lady Aranghel (spelling? I know it's wrong, can someone please correct
this!) from down Krae Glas way, has held glass beadmaking collegia for
the last two years running at Rowany Festival.  She also started a glass
beadmaking list that ticked along for a while but was closed down
eventually due to lack of use.  There aren't terribly many glass
beadmakers in Lochac but lots of people are interested to try it :)
<hoping the class will run every year because at one bead per year I
might have made a full strand in a couple of decades!>

~ Tyghra
ps would love to hear people discussing glass beadmaking on the Metallum
list (yahoo group Metallum_Lochac).  I need help to balance the
armourers v jewellers ratio!

> Are there any on this list who make Glass beads
> and would be interested in maybe having a list for
> discussion and exchange if there isnt already one?
> Please contact me off list if so.
> Or we could get together at Festival and
> talk and stuff.
> Rhianwen

> Hey,
> He’s talking about wood! I thought this was a metal working list :-)
> I can’t talk I’m building a boat.
> http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2107289229
>
> Leofric

Nice little boat!  There'll be some metal used at *some* stage, surely!
<remembering attaching sacrificial anodes to a hull many moons ago>
Nails?

~ Tyg