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#31 From: demipagan@...
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:33 pm
Subject:: Elf's letter (HTML Format) 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
What a curious little letter this was ...

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   <table border width=100%>
   <tr><th align=right>From:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;DWEDDLE@N...</td><th
align=right>Number:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;425456</td></tr>
   <tr><th align=right>To:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;DEMIPAGAN</td><th
align=right>Date:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;3/19/01 11:35 AM</td></tr>
   <tr><th align=right>Subject:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;RE: Not a JOKE</td><th
align=right>Reference:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;None</td></tr>
   <tr><th align=right>Read:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;3/19/01 12:12 PM</td><th
align=right>Private:&nbsp;</th><td>&nbsp;Yes</td></tr>
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Yes I am 'Elf'. My friends have called me that for many many years now.
I was orignally <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>
<mailto:<A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>>
and <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A> <mailto:<A
HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>>  . My wife,
Brigantia, and I worked on things as far as the list is concerned as a
team. She registered the internic name in her name when we got the idea
because she was at the computer already.

As for the story, aside from a few extra details, its pretty complete
and to the point. The extra details aren't worth mentioning at this
point. I was told by a few that there were people on my side of this,
whatever that means. I do know some went out and researched public
documents and talked to the police who came to my condo as well.

Can't say from the writing style that I can ID your person but they do
know a great considerable amount of information it seems. Its good the
author asked for concealment and that you abided by it, shows some level
of trust in my opinion, but hey what do I know :)

As for the lists I stay out of them except for one I started on
Interfaith called Magickal-Intentioneering. Since I am not Wiccan I
don't do purely Pagan stuff. I deal with philosophies as well as a great
deal of many other things. My new website is not up yet and the list is
small. At one point I had started it before the big fiasco and Ed was
actually on it.

He had stated to me about how many pagans are in this area, about how to
bilk them for money, and how to send it to Africa to pay for a resort he
agreed in good faith to be part owner on. He also wanted to be "THE"
persona of Pagans in the Illinois/Chicago area.

As for his morals? Well, no man who walks in between anothers
relationship with his spouse will ever gain respect from me. He had no
right to walk in on me like that. He did so because after meeting us he
wanted what I had, I had a good wife, and a life. So he decided to step
in, he is Wiccan however, Corellian(sp?) and they do have the "An it
harm none..." rule. So much for that eh?

In my opinion he is back stabbing the community for his own purposes and
its ashame that they don't open their eyes before he does it to them
rather than after. But what can one do?

Hope this answers your questions.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=demipagan@m...">demipagan@m...</A>
  Sent: Mon 3/19/2001 9:31 AM
  To: Dane S. Weddle
  Cc:
  Subject: Not a JOKE



  Two questions : 1. Are you "Elf", formerly the webmaster for the
  IllinoisPagans sight, and formerly the list owner for Il-Pagans
? 2. Is the
  story below, true ? This letter was sent to me, and I am
forwarding it to
  you for confirmation. At the request of its author, I am
concealing his
  identity.


                   ---------------------------------------
  "Now, I and Pat have both received e-mails to the
  effect that you did
  a squeeze play on Elf, and are now involved in the
  Illinoispagans
  site. Whether this is actually the truth, or something
  you put one of
  your friends up to telling us, in the hope that one of
  us would snap
  at the bait, is a mystery that I have neither the time
  nor the
  inclination to try to resolve. It is a typical example
  of why so
  many are cutting out, though. You and your friends
  have time for
  these games. The rest of us do not."


  I can assure you that I am in way associated with Ed
  nor has he put anyone up to it. I can bear witness to
  what Ed has done to Elf as well as others. I will not
  reveal who I am or how I got the information, but in
  good faith will provide plenty of it as long as you
  keep this identity secret, pagan to pagan.

  As it stands Ed went to visit Elf and Brigantia to ask
  them to work with an 'elite' group and be his new web
  people because frankly his work sucked. They took some
  time to think about it. Meanwhile Ed asked Elf if he
  could have his wife as a 'slave' to use for sexual
  BDSM things outside of the business relationship. Elf
  preferred no but was willing to hear his wife out
  first. Ed returned to talk again at their place at
  which time they asked everyone to grab some liquor
  from the store and people were drinking. When
  Brigantia began to ignore her husband and ran around
  in panties in front of Ed she was asked to remove Ed
  from the premise. From there she became upset and Ed
  continued to aggrevate it. He assisted her in calling
  the police and saying Elf was a threat to people and
  they came and put him in hospital. On the police
  report, available to the public, Ed and Brigantia were
  both asked if Elf was armed by police, both refused to
  reply to the cops. The cops then became rough with Elf
  not knowing if he was armed which led to him having to
  go to surgery a week later. While Elf was in hospital
  Ed admitted to a friend of Elf's that he was the
  'catalyst' for all of this and that he was interested
  in Elf's wife. Ed convinced her to leave Elf at which
  time she began a legal fight, removed him from
  Illinois Pagans which both had run for its whole
  existence of about 3 years. The website was a success
  because they worked in the web industry and knew what
  to do. Now Ed seems to think its success is his doing
  when in fact its success led him to ask for help with
  his  pathetic site.

  As an investigator to find out if this was all try I
  myself have gotten all public copies of the police
  report, etc involving what Ed has done to Elf. I can
  guarantee this not a sick joke, nor something Ed is
  even smart enough to do. He's a con artist and he is
  going to take the community for what he can.

  If you really are concerned about if this is truth you
  can contact Elf as his original companies email, he
  ran a web hosting service which actually hosted
  Illinois Pagans before they decided to not pay for
  service, the company is called NeonKnights. The email,
  the last one that I used to communicate with him on,
  is <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=dweddle@n...">dweddle@n...</A> , find out
for yourself
  what is true or isn't true by merely asking Elf
  yourself.

  (end of message)


---------------------------------------------------------------------

  To put your mind a little at ease, I hope ...

  I am a Pagan. I am not one of the elders, or other members of
Ed's
  clique. Somebody sent me this, and suggested that I write to you
  to ask if this was true. OK, is it ? Just want to know the
truth.


</pre>
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#30 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:24 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Why these groups are not democracies, Pt. I 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Monday, December 11, 2000 at 8:52 pm, In HP
Chicago_Gripe@egroups.com, Antistoicus (demipagan@...) wrote :




We have already discussed why it is, that I seek to make an island of
these groups. By the way, if the page at GoPlay is down, one can find
s
mirror at

       http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/HPChicagoGripe-entry1.html

What I want to avoid seeing, is the continuation of a situation in
which
the insane rule, because there is no place one can go to speak, where
they
have not intimidated people into silence. I would like to see the
establishment of many such islands, so that no one clique can ever
impose
its will on the entirety of local online Pagandom, in this fashion,
ever
again. This raises another key point.

Neither HPChicago, ChPChicago, this group, or the Shrine of the
Sleeping
Gods, will ever be a democracy. One of the hallmarks of the 90s, I
think,
was the attitude that since we live in a "democracy", all institutions
within the society must be run on a democratic basis as well. This
misconception lead to some very anti-democratic results.

As we saw in the Sancta Sophia story, it is very easy to deal with
people
calmly, and reasonably in this subculture (indeed, in this society),
and
quickly find that one is being ganged up on by a pack of lunatics.
This is
not a happy thought. If the moderator/group coordi
nator/professor/whatever
has abdicated his responsibility to stand up for those being abused,
defending his cowardice in the name of "democracy", he will side with
the
gang setting on the lone individual.

In any side of lawless situation, people will seek that support which
legitimate authority has denied them. In these forums, what people
will
tend to do, is band together for protection. "You stick up for me, and
I'll stick up for you". Those who don't do so quickly, tend to be
driven
off quickly, especially if they stand out in some way. This tends to
insure that people will make alliances with people they don't know,
which
obviously tends to rule out principled choices.

In the place of free and open discussion, we have cliques held
together by
anxiety. A clique is a very small society, whose members are in
constant
fear of expulsion. Consequently, they will quickly tend to develop
into
dictatorships, with well-defined pecking orders, as dissent is not
accepted within them. Losing that, all that remains is posturing and
intimidation. If one confronts another, either one is up, one is
down, or
one is out (ie. the clique breaks into pieces, one of which one is
excluded from, and one of those pieces may consist of a single
person).

This is how we got the elders. They weren't people who attracted
followers
because of their wisdom, or innovative ideas, of the nobility of their
character. They're people who accumulated clout, and intimidated
others
into not opposing them. That's why they and their "causes" aren't
welcome
in either of our groups.



Recognize the situation ? Think back to your world history class.
Europe
around the time of the fall of Rome. Feudalism. You know, the system
where
one man gave up his freedom in exchange for the protection of somebody
who was powerful because he had already made a similar bargain with a
large number of other people ? A classical example of how lawlessness
lead
to anything but freedom, right ?

What we're seeing, now, is akin to a satire of feudalism, given a weak
sort of dark humor, only by the current reduction of the stakes
involved.
The stakes, though, are still disturbingly high. The feudal lord
dealt in
life and death. The clique leader, in our politically correct world,
deals
in the freedom to speak, and associate with others. But make no
mistake.
If we, as a society, allow this trend to continue, it ultimately
leads to
the same place.

If we can not speak up against those who trample our rights, then
there is
no way to have those rights addressed, and we cease to possess them.
Give
up real freedom of speech, or of the press, so lightly as we have in
the
last decade, and one is headed down the road to tyranny. At first, as
the
forming cliques are small, it'll be a matter of making our day to day
lives an unpleasant ordeal, under the guidance of the most
self-righteously unprincipled. If this trend continues unopposed,
eventually those cliques will grow large enough, to de-stabilize the
republic. It has happened elsewhere, before.

I should not have had to write this post. These issues, about freedom
of
speech, and why we don't put it to a vote, were all addressed in the
Federalist Papers, written by the founding fathers, centuries before
we
were born. Unfortunately, nobody seems to want to read, any more, even
though everybody wants to be "involved". Oddly enough, this
involvement
never seems to include the concept of civic duty. "Are you saying
that the
republic will fall, if I appease this elder, Antistoicus ?" No, of
course
not. But many small losses of freedom, do add up, and the act helps to
push the balance of our culture, in a very bad direction.

     (Let us also note that the microscopically small early Christian
      Church, grew into the authoritarian Medieval Church, inquisitions
      and all. Maybe we ought to think twice, before helping to build
      another authoritarian institution, out of concern for our own
      descendants).

In an era in which FBI agents have been seen beating up civilians with
impunity, and courts have ruled that mere innocence is not grounds for
preventing an execution, concern for the freedom to question
authority,
and the willingness of the people to exercise that right, has never
been
more topical. Let's not get people in the habit of being even more
timid
than they've already been, or the future is going to be even more
dystopian than the present.

Let us never forget, that a society is reconstructed from the bottom
on
up, not the other way around. What is happening on the interpersonal
level
today, will be tend to be reflected in the politics of tomorrow.

So, The question is not, "am I going to destroy America", but rather,
"am
I contributing to the status quo in a positive way, or a negative
one".
It's about time that some of us started answering it.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#29 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:06 pm
Subject:: Fwd: [The Coliseum] Why I booted Frederick Johnson for good 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- At 2:24 am, on Thursday, December 28, 200, In HPChicago_Gripe@egroups.com,
Antistoicus (demipagan@...) wrote :
With the departure of Mr. Johnson, I am now rid of all who had
brought grief to the Shrine, during the Sancta Sophia incident. I'd
like to say that this places the incident behind us. I hope it does,
but some people seem reluctant to let go, and go away.

Phyllis Steinhauser (atheleas@a...) tried to sign up recently.
On the bright side, she does seem to be establishing her reputation
as a flake, though some would say, a generally nice one. Perhaps
Raymond can help me see the good in her some time. Right now,
though, I must admit that I am unable to find it, myself.

Ms. Carlson, for medical reasons, probably has only a little time
left to her. She seems content to use it to try to disrupt any
serious discussion in her presence. Given that any community which
accepts this as normative behavior, renders itself incapable of
making plans to deal with real problems, and even more incapable of
dealing with the serious questions people come to religion with, I
can say with confidence that those who continue to accept Vicki will
be far more of a problem to themselves, than to us.

Emme, for all I know, could be Vicki. Given that nobody seems to have
heard of this alleged elder, it's hard not to wonder. One thing is
certain. I haven't heard a word from or about her since.


As for the non-Sancta Sophia people ...

Fred Johnson is now without allies. He has succeeded in antagonizing
both sides in the Sancta Sophia dispute, and Ed Hubbard of Holy
City as well. The moderators of every local Pagan list I know of,
with the possible exception of "Skyclad" think he's an idiot. My
prediction is that having exhausted all of his potential Pagan playing
fields, he's going to slowly drop out of sight. We might see him, in
a few years, terrorizing some protestant denomination once he runs
out of pagans to talk to. But why bother to look ?

Paul Lewis ... was barely even in the picture, and barely seemed to
want to be. Reportedly, he turned over the Skyclad list to somebody
named "Jannell Schmidt" within a few days of its founding. He
barely even hung around the lists. This suggests that he has little
staying power. My guess is that he was just passing through.


So, we may conclude that the above characters, are no longer a subject
that we should spend a lot of time thinking about. This part of the
story is done, or might as well be.

What is a little more troublesome, is the behavior of Ed Hubbard, who
continues to haunt the lists, and spread the bad word. (Likewise
with Traci Logan-Wood). They are far from irrelevant in the local
Wiccan community. Fortunately, we are not Wiccans.

The strategy of the Shrine, and this list, will be to keep its
distance from the Wiccan community. Let us build a good place to be,
here, and let people come of their own accord. Living well will be
all the rebuttal we need, especially given how wired Ed and Traci have
looked of late. Let us simply exercise discretion, when we decide who to
let through our door.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#28 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 1:01 pm
Subject:: Fwd: [The Coliseum] Why I booted Frederick Johnson for good 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote on Thursday, Dec. 28, 2000 at
1:47 am :
What was especially offensive, was that Fred had pledged to work for
the group. Granted, we didn't give him that much to do. I gave him
very limited moderator duties. He could sign people up, approve
messages that he understood, and sharpen pencils. OK, not so much
sharpen pencils, after a while. But, we don't need to get into that.

The point is, that Fred was in a position of trust. While it was
agreed that Fred was perhaps not the brightest of souls, he had
always seemed to mean well.

Fred was also a member of Skyclad in Chicago.

Until today, I didn't know who had breached our trust, though I
had my suspicions. This afternoon, I think it was, I saw something
unusual in my box. Somebody had gone over to that half-forgotten
group (Trollheim_Central), registered, been approved, and quickly
unsubscribed. Well, that can't be good, I think. Finding this a little
curious, I go over, and look around for anything that seems unusual.

Well, the introductory letter had been turned into a lament. That
would explain the sudden cancellation. Something seemed very familiar
about the style, though. It was then that I noticed Fred and Paul's
links, including the one to Skyclad, and made the connection. I asked
Fred, point blank, if he had passed the names along to Mr. Lewis.
He said "yes". Goodbye, Fred. It's not just that he did wrong again,
but that he did the same wrong. History would counsel skepticism,
were he to apologize again. If he can't apologize, though, there
can be no way for us to work past this. Thus, as with Sancta Sophia,
I was left with no doubts. The decision had made itself.

This left me wondering how to deal with Mr. Lewis. One thing was
certain. He did seem remarkably devoid of a sense of humor. Given
this, he didn't belong on Trollheim. While it might have been the
case that Fred had volunteered his help to somebody who hadn't asked
for it (it wouldn't be the first time), Mr. Lewis had seemed willing
to make use of that information. What is not so clear cut, is whether
or not he had understood the breach of trust in which he had become
a participant.

The uncertainty is the assumption leading to my decision, becomes an
uncertainty about the decision itself. I banned Mr. Lewis from my lists,
for what I perceived to be a cerain amount of skulking around. However, I
do so acknowledging that there is room for reasonable doubt about my call
on this way. In the case of Mr. Johnson, however, there can be no serious
doubt.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#27 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:58 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Why I booted Frederick Johnson for good 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote, on Thu Dec, 28 at 1:17 am:
Frederick, as you may have seen in the Sancta Sophia story, created
endless headaches for the Shrine by breaching the confidentiality of
its internal mailing list. Later on, he pleaded for forgiveness, and
agreed to do penance for this violation of our trust. Ok, fine.

Later on, I decided to revive "The International Brotherhood of
Warlocks and Trolls. This was kind of a networking organization, for
post-baby boomer Pagans looking for a few laughs, with nothing
serious being discussed. Fred hears about this, and sends me an
e-mail saying "So I hear you got this warlock thing going again.
Can I be your assistant moderator ? Can I ? Huh ? Can I ? Can I ?".

Well, it wasn't like I had the time to run ANOTHER list, or had any
other candidates for the post of assistant. Sigh. Oh, well, it wasn't
a serious list, anyway, so how much damage could he do, really ? "Yes,
Fred, you can be a moderator. And are you sure you're 25 ?" "Well,
yes, pretty sure. I counted the candles on the cake. That's what they
came out to. Why ?" "Oh, no reason". With that, I proceeded to largely
forget that Trollheim_Central, the home list for the Brotherhood at
egroups even existed. Fortunately, I did have the sense to stay the
list owner, just in case Fred did something stupid.

Of course, he did. One of the people who had signed up for the list,
Mr. Paul Lewis, went out and started promoting a list called
"Skyclad in Chicago", for Pagans interested in Skyclad gatherings.
Fine, no problem. Some of our people at HPChicago started arguing
with Mr. Lewis about this. Not great, but not disastrous. Then Fred
either called, or e-mailed Mr. lewis and told him which of our
people were doing this, again, breaching the confidentiality of a
list he was one. Not fine, very big problem       -----> cont
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#26 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:56 pm
Subject:: Fwd: another test 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote, on Sun Dec.24 2000 at 10: 11
pm :
testily testing the testy tester
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#25 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:54 pm
Subject:: Fwd: test post 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Sun, Dec, 24 2000 at 1:55 am the whole held its breath, as In
HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@... wrote the immortal words:
testing, 1,2,3,4 ...  testing ...
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#24 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:51 pm
Subject:: Fwd: One other reason I post explanations here. 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Tue, Dec. 12, 2000 at 7 : 45 In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
As I've already mentioned, I do want my subscribers to understand the
thinking behind my decisions. One reason, as I have explained, is that
it helps them to know what to expect from me. This, I think, has to be
a much more comfortable feeling, that to be left guessing as to what
the "rules" are.

There is another reason, though, and this tends to throw people. I put
the thought processes that lead to my decisions out there, and make
the effort to do so in detail, so that you may examine them, and
assess the validity of the arguments for yourself. If the reasoning
within my argument seems flawed to you, you are not only allowed to
post a detailed explanation of what you feel the errors are, but you
are urged to do so.

I am not "Elf", and this is not Il-Pagans. The moderator is not
always right, and he knows it. If I look over your reasoned, detailed
rebuttal, and see that indeed, I have made an error, I will revisit
my argument, and reverse my decision if logic seems to dictate that
I do so. Let us understand, though, that ad hominem arguments like "I've
known so-and-so for 20 years", rants, and the like, aren't valid rebuttals.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#23 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:47 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Swinging the axe over at the Shrine 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Tue Dec.12, 2000 at 5:11 am, In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...=
  wrote:




Hah haH hah ! Power ! Tremble before me, I, the mighty leader of a nine
person group ! I, and my mighty delete key of destruction !

No, I'm not serious. But, some people would be.

Learning that the moderator of a list has thrown people off of a list in
the past, can sometimes be a source of concern for a new member. Well,
trust me, one is never happy about it, but sometimes it just has to be
done. But I do know that you don't know me, so I've tried to explain the
thinking behind my decisions to do so in the past, so you'll have some
idea of what to expect from me in the future. Also, some of these people
have been rumor mongering, so this is a rebuttal.

Two of the people I've mentioned so far, have been people I've expelled so
far : Vicki Carlson and Emme Wilson of the Temple of Sancta Sophia.
Atheleas (Phyllis Steinhauser) might claim to be a third, but that's not
strictly true. The list had already been closed down, and Phyllis and I
were trading private e-mail. Phyllis, apparently unclear on the demise of
the list, tried to get me to throw another member off because he said that
the elders in the community were "a pain in the ass". It is in the taking
of an oath that one became a member of the Council, and that oath required
one to refrain from trying to prevail in an argument by trying to keep
one's opponent from being heard, so, like Vicki, she voided her own
membership. There was no decision for me to make. The page

             http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/atheleas.html

tells and documents the story. As you can see there, she then attempted to
play lawyer on Vicki's behalf, by saying that she was just defending
herself from Fred Johnson's attacks online, when she went to the outside
groups to smear the Council, and continue her griping from the list. As a
matter of confirmable, objective reality, though, Fred had never mentioned
Vicki, ever, on egroups, when Vicki started her campaign. Atheleas had
simply lied outright on behalf of one of her friends.

Again, lying to the moderator in order to win his support - as common
sense should suggest, this is grounds for expulsion. I don't have the time
to check stories that people have made up, on a regular basis. Who does ?
Phyllis has now earned the revocation of a membership she has already
voided. Combine this with the crude attempt at manipulation that
accompanied all of this, and you can't help but see that I didn't tell her
to go away, lightly.


You know, I say this, but some people don't hear it, or maybe, don't think
about it. Even in business, there has to be an expectation of some level
of honesty. Phyllis' behavior would have been intolerable, even in a
corporate setting. Now, our "business" at the Shrine and Council was
religion, that which provides us with guidance in all else that we do. We
HAVE to be on our best behavior, here, because of why it is, that we're
here. So, here it is, and I'll say it openly. Respect for freedom of
expression, here, is not going to be taken to the point at which people
are allowed to do things that are clearly sleazy.

Kids, basically this is a prayer group, in a family of traditions that
played a prominent role in the formation of modern Christianity. This is a
religion that comes with a value system, and morality, in it, is viewed as
being objective. If one violates its moral code, or even worse does so,
and gets smug about it as Phyllis did, then, at a bare minimum, I am duty
bound to take the person aside, and not allow her to return until she is
ready to repent, and do penance. I owe that much to the rest, and to those
we meet in honor of.




Then there was Fred. Nice enough guy, but he created a problem. The Shrine
was basically a college and grad student group. So, two things we were
really short on, were time and money. After Jack Armstrong threw me out of
Alchemy A˙rts, and threatened to sue me (and the Shrine) because he
thought we were Ed Hubbard's friends, I went into our inhouse list. I told
people that I wasn't saying that they shouldn't shop at Alchemy Arts, just
that they shouldn't mention my name, or the name of the Shrine or Council,
while they were over. I just didn't want to see my people get hassled.

Fred had been creating the illusion that he was a representative of the
Council, which, again, is grounds for expulsion, almost anywhere. He dared
Jack to sue us. You know, I'm really in favor of free expression - up to a
point. But if somebody stands behind me, and yells "Antistoicus said he
wants to kick your teeth in. Bring it on wimp, he's not afraid", well, I
might just have something to say about it. Especially if somebody is
borrowing passages out of my writing, and passing it off as his own while
he does so. Oh, dear God, I don't think I'll ever forget that month, even
if I should live to see graduation.

If Fred, on his own, was just calling people idiots, and I had seen a wave
of mail asking me to "do something about it", I would have just initiated
mail filtering, and posted a message telling people to get a life. But
speaking for us, and dragging the rest of us into a fight that we didn't
necessarily want, was inappropriate.

Again, and this is a point I keep coming to, I did not have a decision to
make. The decision made itself. The stated purpose of the offline
portion of the Council was to promote free and open communication,
something that all on the list were pledged to support. Obviously, if
people are afraid to post on it, because Fred might globally repost it,
and pick fights in their names, this will have a chilling effect on
discussions on the list. If Fred had been a member, again, he would have
voided his own list membership. As it was, he was only a guest.

(Note : Fred did eventually apologize).



So, here's a rule that comes out of this incident. Please don't be a mope.
If you want to get into a fight of your own, that's your privilege, and
best wishes for a speedy recovery. But respect the fact that the rest of
us are entitled to choose our own fights.

Another is, don't speak for us. Yes, you're entitled to your freedom of
expression, but we're equally entitled to ours. If people are free to
stick words into our mouths, we lose control over what it is that people
think we have said, and that makes our freedom of expression much less
meaningful. For this reason, with a clear conscience, we'll step in.


I hope this has answered any concerns you may have had in this area.
Staying on this list, is really, really easy, as long as you remember one
thing. This is not a new age list, where you're encouraged to "do your own
thing, man". Remember what was considered to be "basic common courtesy"
before you found Paganism ? Becoming a polytheist should, if anything,
strengthen your respect for those values, because you now have more people
helping you to be a better person, right ? Twelve more gods, at least.

If you're really unclear, here's a pair of links

         http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/introval.html
         http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/introval.html

to a discussion of something called "the Uniform Base Code of Morality".
What it is, is the common ground between almost every traditional code of
morality that I know of. I wouldn't ask you to read the whole discussion,
but if in doubt, skimming the pages linked to val95ues.html on either
site, should my position clear. If you are planning an action that would
be prohibited by that very loose code, or runs contrary to its spirit, the
significance of the code, is that it tells you not to do that, here.

Actions of that nature are considered to be undebatably over the line,
here, and will result in rapid expulsion. I hope, though, that this will
build confidence here, not undermine it, as every single act prohibited,
is one that "common decency", as it is generally understood, would not
allow. In other words, you're not on your own, here. Your moderator may
not always be logging in frequently enough to act quickly, but I do care
about each and every one of you, and I will do my best to see to it that
you are treated right, while you're here.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#22 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:45 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Why these groups are not democracies, Pt. II 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Mon, Dec. 11, 2000 at 9:10 pm, In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
As I mentioned, certain people have tried to argue that all
institutions (private or public) in a democratic society, should
be democratically run.

Let me refer people back to the Federalist papers, which I mentioned
before. A key point raised there, is the danger of the formation of
majority factions. The US, in their argument, is protected from this,
by its sheer size.

The largest Pagan organization that we know of, Nova Roma, counts no
more than 1000 members, in its entire national organization. It's
hard to picture that being large enough, to avoid the faction problem.
Even the smallest banana republic, is much larger.

Some will protest the "arrogance" of a moderator who is unconcerned
with the wishes of the majority. "What makes you think that you have
the right to set your judgement over everybody else's ?" This is
nonsense. Anybody here, is free to create his own forum, if he doesn't
like the way I'm running mine, under the same rules, and people are
free (and encouraged) to vote with their feet if they feel that I am not doing a
good job. My position is not "I rule". My position is that in place of power
politics, we should have the ethic of competition, in which each leader is free
to pursue his own vision, within the constraints of common decency, much as the
individual businessman is free to run his own business as he sees fit. The
businessman, if he serves his customers well, will see a good return in profits.
The leader, or moderator, if he serves his group well, will see the reward of
watching his group grow. If wither the leader, or businessman serves those who
come to him pporly, he will be left standing alone. It's just that simple.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#21 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:39 pm
Subject:: Fwd: "Where are they, now ?" What went wrong, and why. 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Mon Dec.11, 2000 at 6:45 pm In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
Small point ... this is being written purely for the archives, as
nobody has registered for this group, yet. (It's only two days old).

So, I might as well use a link, here. Go to

        http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/HPChicagoGripe-entry1.html

This ties into WHY I don't want the subscribers to HPChicago, and
ChPChicago to crosspost articles here, onto the General pagan lists,
or discuss them there, and why I don't want to see events there,
being discussed on our lists here. I would like to keep our groups
isolated from this kind of insanity.

It would be a waste of time, for us to go out, and try to reason with
the insane. To put it another way, let's not try to 'save the world'.
The world is too big for us, and our efforts would be diluted to
the point of meaninglessness. Let us instead make a good corner of it
to dwell in, and be careful about who, or what, we let into it.

Think of it as being the difference between going out into the night to try to
end all crime, and locking your door when you get home. Which approach to
dealing with the nastiness out there, is likelier to produce worthwhile results
?
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#20 From: medius@...
Date: Wed Apr 18, 2001 12:36 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Garbage from Holy City and Sancta Sophia, that won't go away 		medius@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- On Mon Dec.11, 2000 7:26 am In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:




Ah, the joys of working with the community !

While I generally prefer to ignore crazy people, some of them just won't
go away. Here is a summary of what went on with some of them.

Sequence of events

     1. I make the mistake of founding the Agora, a local Pagan listings
        page, and the Council for Pagan Liberty and Interfaith Cooperation.

              see : http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/bard.html
                    for an explanation of what that was about.

     2. Somebody calls Traci Logan-Wood of the Holy City Temple, and tells
        her that I've claimed to be a representative of the Holy City
        Temple. This is incorrect. I tell Traci that she has been given
        bad information, and ask her to check the Temple's listing to see
        that this is so. Traci merely gets more belligerent. I hang up.
        Traci calls back. I ask her to stop calling.

        Traci then goes on to tell everybody who will listen about how
        rudely I treated her just for asking me to take out the
        "inappropriate information" in the Temple's listing. The objective
        fact that it was never there, makes no impression on her.

     3. I go to the Pagan Expo, and set up a table to bring people in, both
        to the Council, and the Shrine of the Sleeping Gods. I make the
        mistake of putting out one list for both groups, with the
        instruction that those signing up indicate which group(s) they are
        interested in. Naturally, nobody does. All that I can do at this
        point is set up a combined list in the hope of sorting things
        out there.

     4. Vicki Carlson, Emme Wilson and Phyllis Steinhauser (Atheleas) of
        the Temple of Sancta Sophia have signed up.

        Note : THE oath required of new applicants for the Council, is
        to refrain from trying to prevail in a dispute, by persuading
        other people to not listen to one's opponent. This oath will
        be repeatedly breached.

     5. The Round Table, the local Pagan newsletter, has folded. I start
        a discussion about setting up a new newsletter, for the general
        Pagan community, and starting an independent and uncensored press
        for said community, not under the control of the "elders".

     6. Emme Wilson nominates herself to be editor, and immediately
        complains that she isn't being offered absolute control over the
        newsletter. (Instead, a system of checks and balances is in place).

             a. Meanwhile, a notice has been sent out, to the effect that
                a successor to the Round Table is being planned. That is to
                say, a newsletter that will fill the nice left empty by
                the demise of the Round Table.

                I go into Alchemy Arts, where I meet Jack Armstrong, the
                owner. Jack goes berserk when he finds out that I mentioned
                the Round Table, and threatens to sue me and the Council
                for being friends of Ed Hubbard.

                Small point : I never was Ed's friend, I simply knew him.
                In short order, it becomes clear that Jack is psychotic.
                Goodbye, good riddance.

     7. The Council is nothing more than a loose association, charging no
        dues. Consequently, in order to get funds, the editorial board of
        the newsletter would have to go out and raise them. This is
        explained on the list.

     8. Emme sends a snotty letter, in which she demands to be paid $ 40
        per hour for the volunteer position she has nominated for, and
        asserts that she will accept no responsibility for raising funds.
        She also denies having signed up for the Council, and Shrine (even
        though her signature is on the list), and demands to be not be
        counted as a member of either.

     9. Fine. As requested, I remove her from the membership roster, and
        consequently, the in-house mailing list. As the newsletter is a
        project of the Council, Emme can no longer be on the editorial
        board. Emme decides that she doesn't like that at all, and
        requests reinstatement.

    10. Having grown tired of her games, I exercise my discretion as
        moderator, and decline the request.


    11. Vicki, meanwhile, is deciding to maneuver. She takes to asking
        impossibly broad questions (what is the Council) that are
        addressed on the Agora. This eats up a lot of time and bandwidth.
        Worse, she takes to repeatedly asking questions that have already
        been answered, in response to her own questions.

        This threatens to bring the list to a halt. I suspend Vicki's
        membership, with reinstatement contingent on her agreement to
        abide by basic netiquette. Like, for example, not asking the
        same questions over and over, and looking at the FAQ file, before
        asking questions.

    12. One of Vicki's favorite questions, is whether participation on the
        newsletter will be restricted to members of the Council, or will
        be open to all interested Pagans. Compliance with Vicki's wishes
        would, of course, open the door to Emme's candidacy for editor.

        Given that membership in the Council does not exclude membership
        in any other organization, and that it is available to any
        interested Pagan who is willing to abide by certain rules of
        conduct, I indicate that I don't see what the issue is. I mention
        that it strikes me as being a bad idea, for us to hand partial
        control of one of our projects to people who haven't even agreed
        to let us get to know them first. Also, how many organizations
        do we know of, that hand partial control of their projects over
        to outsiders. The Round Table, for example, was under the
        exclusive control of the Holy City Temple, and nobody objected
        to that arrangement.

    13. Vicki throws a screaming fit, and sends a letter to the staffs of
        the previous newsletters asking them to join her in making a
        newsletter of her own. Apparently forgetting that she has been
        suspended, she cc's this letter to the inhouse list, being sure
        to accompany it with large amounts of abuse directed against the
        moderator. (Me).

            a. Traci Logan-Wood and Ed Hubbard of the Holy City Temple
               were on the list of people the letter was cc-ed to. I
               tell our side of the story. Traci becomes the first to
               mislabel this "bashing", a line which much of the community
               will later parrot.

               Some months have passed since Traci's bizarre phone call.
               I am over it. Traci, however, isn't, and seizes on this as
               an excuse to bring up her old insane cause (the non-existent
               comment). I tell Traci to go away, and stay away.

               Ed decides to jump in on her behalf, basically arguing that
               the facts are irrelevant, only status matters. Ed will
               restate this "argument" on his own behalf, in a few months,
               with even greater arrogance. At this point, however, I tell
               Ed that I don't wish to know him any more.

    14. I remove Vicki from the list, with cause. She breached the
        aforementioned oath, and, as such, voided her own membership.

             See : http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/council-sophia.html

    15. Vicki, Emme and their friends then proceeded to raise so much hell,
        that most of the membership of the Shrine and Council was driven
        off. Did I mention that these two were Wiccan community elders ?

    16. In particular, Vicki and Atheleas went onto outside lists, to drum
        up hostility toward the Shrine, even before Vicki's final
        expulsion. At this point, I am so repulsed by what I've seen, that
        I leave the council, and pledge to never work with or on behalf of
        "the community" ever again.

    17. Members of the Council went onto the lists, to try to tell our side
        of the story. They encountered what I encountered via private
        e-mail with the Wiccan community : a persistent refusal to listen.
        Worse still, was the self-righteous hypocrisy of the attitude that
        any attempt to tell our side was "bashing" or "flaming", while
        anything Vicki's side said, no matter what it was, was simply
        "discussion" or "expressing a concern".

        This in particular came up recently. The last two remaining members
        of the council went onto the lists to mention that the Agora was
        being updated again, and that the Council was looking for somebody
        to take it over. Ed proved to be as petty as Traci.

        He went on, and lied, outright. He said that every time that
        "assistance has been given to the Agora", the help had resulted in
        attacks. In fact, assistance had never been given to the Agora,
        and attacks had been conducted BY him and his friends, not directed
        against them.

        I could go on reciting a litany of untruths, but I think you see my
        point. This was a man of non-existent ethical character.

    18. This raised the question, of who it was that we were ever working
        on behalf of. Having failed to find so much as a single outside
        community member willing to do anything but engage in blatant
        favoritism on Vicki's behalf, the last Council member decided that
        the "General Pagan Community" could go straight to Hell.

        Lacking a mission, the Council then dissolved. Two people were
        offered control of the Agora, and given copies of it for their
        own use : Doxxx of Doxxx CyberCircle fame, and Eric Roberts of
        Witches of the West.


Either man would be an excellent webmaster for the Agora, and I would be
pleased to see either take over, or make its files part of his site.
However, my heart will not bleed, if the site is deserted altogether.

The Agora, like the Council, was overwhelmingly an effort on behalf of
Wiccans by non-Wiccans, and Wiccan ingratitude has long since reached
epic proportions. The particular part of the Agora that had been split off
was the Wiccan section. The Shrine is not a Wiccan group. So, the only
people that stand to be hurt, are the members of the community doing the
damage. I think that there's a certain poetic justice to that.

Did all of the Wiccan groups endorse what Ed and company were up to ? No.
But not a single one of them condemned Ed's efforts, or spoke up on our
behalf. So, what are we to think ? Ed speaks for them, because they've
elected to let him do so.

As for losing traffic from these groups - look at who I was meeting. Would
you miss these people ? I just wish that I had never wasted time trying to
sow the seeds of community, on such stony ground.



The "no elders, never, no matter what" rule at the Shrine was a direct
result of this incident, and the community response. It was a turning
point. Before that, the Shrine sought to reach out, greet new members
and guests from the other groups, and help to promote cohesion within the
"General Pagan Community". Afterwards, a far different approach was
chosen, as mentioned on the Almond Jar.

       See : http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/phone.html

One lives and learns. I just wish that I had learned a lot more quickly.
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#19 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:43 pm
Subject:: Fwd: [Trollheim_Central] BUY MY SOUL!!! 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In Trollheim_Central@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:
Oh, sure ! The price is good. But just wait until you send the repo
man to take possession. Then it's whine, whine, whine ! And just
try to get those holy water burns out of your clothing, because you
just know he's going to have a vial of the stuff the moment you
manifest yourself. I tell you, it's enough to make you wonder if
being in league with the forces of darkness is even worth it.

                  ---------------------------------------
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=558203051
                  ---------------------------------------

I noticed that the minimum bid was $ 21 Australian, and bidding was
up to $ 20.50. Bidding increments were 50 cents each. I get the
feeling that the man really wants to make a sale, and bid it up
there himself. I'd love to oblige him, but I don't know what I'd
do with a spare soul. Knowing me, it'd probably just end up gathering
dust in my dad's attic.

Any suggestions ?
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#18 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:38 pm
Subject:: Fwd: [Trollheim_Central] BUY MY SOUL!!! 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In Trollheim_Central@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:
Oh, sure ! The price is good. But just wait until you send the repo
man to take possession. Then it's whine, whine, whine ! And just
try to get those holy water burns out of your clothing, because you
just know he's going to have a vial of the stuff the moment you
manifest yourself. I tell you, it's enough to make you wonder if
being in league with the forces of darkness is even worth it.

                  ---------------------------------------
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=558203051
                  ---------------------------------------

I noticed that the minimum bid was $ 21 Australian, and bidding was
up to $ 20.50. Bidding increments were 50 cents each. I get the
feeling that the man really wants to make a sale, and bid it up
there himself. I'd love to oblige him, but I don't know what I'd
do with a spare soul. Knowing me, it'd probably just end up gathering
dust in my dad's attic.

Any suggestions ?
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#17 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:36 pm
Subject:: Fwd: BUY MY SOUL!!! 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In Trollheim_Central@e..., soulseller2000@y... wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=558203051
--- End forwarded message ---

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#16 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 3:35 pm
Subject:: Fwd: Re: March 17th, not a day to celebrate ! 		demipagan@...
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--- In Trollheim_Central@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:
--- In MidwestPagans@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:
--- In MidwestPagans@au.egroups.com, "Albert A. Feyen"
<eaglestar100@y...> wrote:
> This was sent to me on a Nation Pagan list I participate on.
>
> I think it is something you need to read and think about.
>
> I'll never wear green again on March 17th, I'll wear black.
>

Assuming that ANY of this ever actually happened, and it isn't another
New Age red herring. If I spent my time chasing down every one of
those I heard, I'd never get anything else done. I especially loved
the gem about the Bible commanding the killing of Wiccans. Never
mind the fact that the very English culture that Wicca has its roots
in, wouldn't even come into existence for another few millenia. No,
we have a story to tell, and if you were a good little heathen, you
would swallow it, and run along.

So, I hope you'll forgive me if I suspect that the original version
of this story may have ended with the Niemann-Marcus cookie recipe.
I find it peculiar, to say the least, that St. Patrick's murdering
ways have seen so little press, given just how much grisly detail
history was willing to pass along about, say the Inquisition.

You wouldn't happen to have a reputable citation to back up this
story ? You know, something from a University Press ? And who was
it that provided that killer Patrick, with the muscle he needed ?
In a country so decentralized, that the nobility had to travel by
sea to reach the alleged high king, because they wouldn't be safe
in each other's territories ? How does one quickly orchestrate such
a thing ? Even the far better organized Roman Empire, dealing with
a generally more docile populace, with a generally far greater
level of brutality, had trouble achieving that over a period of
centuries. Arguably, given how thoroughly the state religion's
ritual base and philosophy ended up being Paganized, they never quite
succeeded. Mardis Gras, anybody ?

To sum up ...

> On March 17, I will not wear green.

On March 17, I will look like a friggin' leprechaun.

> On March 17, I will not wear a shamrock.

On March 17, I will toss on a Chieftains' album.

> On March 17, I will not honor the man who lead the conquest of
> Ireland.

On March 17, I will not honor the man who lead the killing of a good
time.

> On March 17, I will wear black.

On March 17, I will get shit-faced on Guiness.

> On March 17, I will wear snakes.

On March 17, my girlfriend will be wearing my ... no, it's too easy.

> On March 17, I will mourn the deaths of my spiritual ancestors.

On March 17, I will celebrate what has been gained, and try to
recapture some of what has been lost.


I don't know, Al, but I think I'll be having a better time.
You might try putting a little less faith into those rumors.
You'll live a fuller life.

                   Antistoicus

                   http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/christ-index.html
                   http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/
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#15 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 8:13 am
Subject:: The Council, and past ambitions 		demipagan@...
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What were my intentions, as I set up the Council ? Where was I going with
it ? A question that Raymond Anderson more than subtly hinted at was,
was whether or not I was setting this up, because I wanted to get into
Ed and Don's "racket". The answer, as with the Shrine, was "no, far
from it". It was set up on the usual grounds one starts any bit of
volunteer work. "It needs doing, nobody else is doing it, so let's just
get it done".

If I'm sounding unenthusiastic, it's because I was, going in. But, I
did have a sense of purpose, and an exit strategy. Remember how I spoke
of projects running autonomously, once they were set up at the Council ?
This would have included the newsletter. The beauty of autonomy, is that
it cuts down on the workload for everybody else. The bigger the
bureaucracy, the higher the ratio of administrative busy work to actual
productive labor. (I did mention that I had a few libertarian tendencies,
right ?). Once most of the projects were up and running, there would be
little for the group organizer (me) to do, as the group organizer, except
keep a reasonable degree of order at the meetings, prepare the
refreshments, and greet the guests, which was fine with me.

I set up a charter for the newsletter, and started looking for candidates
for the various posts. If all had gone according to plan, I would have
been able to fill all posts, with capable and conscientious candidates,
without having to be one, myself. Having done so, I would no longer
have a say in the running of the newsletter. Nor would I want one. The
cost for being "blessed" with this would be a large amount of work, and
I already have plenty.

This, I think, should answer Raymond's question with regard to the
Council. Once again, it overlooks the semi-anarchistic nature of the
"organization" in question, and the fact that under my own rules, I
would have had no authority to collect dues. So, once again, there was
no "racket" for me to get into, because there was no money to be had.

The fight here, then, wasn't over which faction would dominate. In part,
it was an ideological dispute (moderate anarchism, vs. centralized
control by the elders), and in larger part, about a very practical
political issue - maintaining order. Let's remind the reader of the url

           http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/council-sophia.html

and one basic fact that Raymond glosses over, when he asks if I am a
"disgruntled young man, trying to get his way", who has "libeled" a
number of prominent elders to get it. Vicki Carlson wasn't the group
organizer, list moderator, or chairman for the upcoming meeting. I was,
and she freely chose to sign up as a member in MY GROUP. To be
"disgruntled" in this context, would imply that I was unhappy with the
way the Vicki was running things at the Council, when, in fact, I was in
charge. It was Vicki, and her friends, that were disgruntled, and
resorting to libel and disruptive behavior because of it, and I have the
documentation to prove it.

To get to the main issue, though ...

As the chairman, I have to have the authority to eject unruly and
disruptive members, no matter who they are, or I can't do my job. There
can't be any compromise on this. I found that it was the acceptance of
precisely this, that was to be the first sticking point between the
Council and the elders.

To those who think that there is another way, take due note. The
thwarting of the first attempt to get the newsletter out, took place in
May of 2000. It is now April of 2001. In that time, the very people
objecting to the even-handed application of the rules, as explained in
advance, to one of the elders, have proved incapable of getting a
newsletter going, themselves, on any other terms.

Let's get serious, now. If this was the transcript of an offline meeting,
instead of the log of an online exchange, the policies that I described
would be a proper subset of simple, standard Parliamentary procedure.
When it becomes a local cause celebre, that I enforced something like
that on one of the elders, and one has to fight this one out for a year,
because of what said elder did in the course of a day, we have a problem
that is incompatible with our being able to get anything done.

I might add, that it is also incompatible with the stated code of ethical
principle given at the Expo

            http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/introval.html

(in particular, with the call for limited egalitarianism), when the
argument against the same rules being applied to said elder, refers to
the position of said elder in the community. The rule, as is the norm
in Parliamentary disputes, is that all are equal under the law. When a
branch of the Pagan community decides to wage bitter war, in response
to the application of said principle, one may well ask whether
Neo-Paganism has become a step forward, or a step backward.



Either way, what is proposed, does not work, and has no basis in
tradition (so, it is not understandable as an error). This aspect
of community life, has got to change, and but fast, or there won't
be any community left. So, the question I put to all in this one,
is how one gets an unruly elder to behave herself ? Worse still,
what happens if an elder goes senile, suffers from some other
mental break, or simply thinks it's funny to be difficult ?
(One doesn't have to be a good person, to live a long life).

Realistically, you know that these things do periodically happen to
old people, which is why gerentocracies don't tend to be especially
well-run, or pleasant societies.

How do we keep her from bringing everything to a screeching halt,
just for the sake of doing a power play, as Vicki did here ? I
would maintain that this scenario alone, is reason enough to
discard the novel and inequitable institution of "elderhood" and
return to traditional Western egalitarianism. Without it, it is
impossible to get work done, in any serious fashion.


                                                Antistoicus



PS. There is the whole separate issue, of the appropriateness of a
     Wiccan elder claiming authority over a non-Wiccan group, which
     is a little like a Catholic priest expecting to be obeyed when
     he steps into a synagogue, but that's another discussion.

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#14 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:59 am
Subject:: How I got the idea for the Council 		demipagan@...
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Let's talk about the Council for Pagan Liberty and Interfaith
Cooperation, now. This post will be about its past, and what lead me
to the concept that I explained here, of how it would be set up.



One might say that this story really began long before I had ever heard
of Ed. My first exposure to "the Reader Circuit" (the local pocket of
Pagandom in which the Holy City Temple is to be found) came when I saw an
ad in the Chicago Reader (where else ?), and attended something called
"Pagan's Night Out". At first, the people I was meeting seemed to be a
colorful and entertaining crowd, with maybe a few minor, amusing quirks.
The quirks, however, did not stay minor or amusing for long.

         http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/stale-coffee.html

Here's the short form of a very long story at the above url : An innocent
act (walking somebody out to her car) brings me into contact with a very
strange young woman in the community, and her equally strange and bizarre
friends. (The names have been changed, largely because I'm tired of
hearing them). The women and her friends prove to have far too much
trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality. The rumor mill kicks
into high gear. Eventually, the Naperville and Chicago Police Departments
have to be brought in, because some of the "peace and love" crowd have
taken to phoning my parents' home at odd hours, to make death threats.
(It takes a real "hero" to get his/her friends together, to terrorize a
middle-aged leukemia patient, and her elderly spouse). Much silliness
follows, leaving me with the thought ... this is religion ?

Here's an even happier thought for you : one of the members of the
'Heathen Hit Squad' from the paragraph above is currently the owner of one
of the local Pagan lists. I believe this is known as "having one of the
inmates running the asylum". It's not very reassuring. the fact that a
number of the principals in that story are currently group leaders, is
much less so. (No, I'm not inclined to name names on this one. Guess !)



In retrospect, this incident should have been enough to end my involvement
with that community, right there. At least, though, I did have enough
sense to learn one lesson from this, and I made sure to share it with
those I knew, before they encountered Ed's community. Here it is :

Never, ever tell strangers at the socials your real name. Go under a
pseudonym/craft name, or make a real sounding, but false "mundane name".
DO NOT give people accurate information about where you're from, or where
you work. There is an excellent chance that you will be meeting at least a
few psychotic individuals, who will have nothing better to do with their
time than stalk you or those close to you, because of some grievance
existing nowhere outside of their troubled minds. The last thing on earth
you want to do, is help them start their search for you, or yours. It is
far better enough to make it difficult enough, that by the time they would
have started to make a little headway on it, they will have been
distracted by their obsessive hatred of a new "enemy", leading them to
largely forget about you.

When somebody has earned your trust - that's when you start giving them
good information. We live in a major city, and there are some scary
people out there. Any reasonable person will understand why you threw out
a few false leads, here and there. There is very little dishonor attaching
to the act of letting somebody think that you're from Utah, instead of
Montana, or that your name is "Mark" instead of "Paul" under these
circumstances, for example.



At this point, I was still naive enough to think that I could put the
coffeehouse incidents behind me, merely by not returning to those, once
they resumed. No, this was the mistake. The rumor mill in the Reader
Circuit never rests, and it never lets go of you, once you've been caught
in it. But, I didn't know any better, so I went looking for a group.

The first thing that I discovered, on looking for a Hellenic Pagan group
in the Chicago area, was that none existed, at least not in the circles I
was looking for one in. In fact, I couldn't even find an understanding of
what that was, among the "old timers" I was meeting. "Well, yes", they
would say glibly, "Aphrodite, Astarte, Kali ... these are all names for
our goddess", growing quite indignant when it was pointed out that there
was more to Hellenic Paganism, than the chanting out of a particular name
or two, and that it bore no resemblance whatsoever to Wicca.

There was nothing left to do, but start a new group, because I was not
going to be paying my respects to Aphrodite in any meaningful sense, in
the old ones. In my continuing naivete, I still felt that establishing
connections to the other groups in "the community" was the thing to do.
The elders I encountered assured me that the coffeehouse crowd did not
speak for the whole community, and I believed them.



So, I went looking for groups to get to know. Given the unpleasantness in
the coffeehouses, I would have liked to have had some sense of the
personalities of the people I would be meeting. Given how many of my
inquiries had turned out to be time-wasters, I would have liked to have
some sense of what the philosophies of each group were, what they did ...
what it was that made each distinctive, for better or worse. This proved
to be impossible, as the group listings were little more than classified
ads. There just wasn't enough room to for them to do all of that, even if
they wanted to take the time to do so.

That gave me something to think about, later on.



I wrote up the blurb for the group I was trying to get going (The Shrine
of the Sleeping Gods), and sent it in to the Round Table. And, of course,
I had to get the url to my own site wrong. I wrote

         http://www.freeyellow.com:8080/members/demipagan

when I should have written

         http://www.freeyellow.com:8080/members8/demipagan

(You just have to love those old urls). Discovering the error, I wrote in
to Ed Hubbard. (Here is where I first encounter Ed). He seemed like a
pleasant enough guy, if maybe not too bright. Over the next few months, he
proved unable to fix a broken link. Here's what happened in my case :

When you have a hot link to another page, in HTML it appears in this form

         <a href="url">label</a>

In Lynx, the label appears in highlighted script, and if you click onto
it, you are sent to the url. (In Netscape, I believe, the label will
appear underlined, and maybe a different color if one has set one's body
tags the right way). What Ed did in my case, was take a link of the form

         <a href="address1">address1</a>

where address1 was the old, bad urls, and replace it with

         <a href="address1">address2</a>

where address2 was the corrected address. But, this still sent the browser
to the same, old, non-existent location, creating the illusion that the
site was no longer there. (In fact, it is there to this day, years later,
except that FreeYellow has cut out the annoying ":8080" after the
".com").

I found that there were a few other groups left with broken links that Ed
wasn't fixing. (AMOKS drumming circle and the Fellowship of Isis, if I
recall correctly). Peeling back a few urls, and then following a few links
was enough to find the correct urls. Since Ed was obviously having
difficulties, I even downloaded a copy of his groups listing page,
fixed the broken links, and mailed it back to him.

No movement on his part, and all that he had to do at this point, was
upload. After a while, it became clear that absolutely nothing was going
to change on this score, so I assembled a small page of corrections and
uploaded it to a site on the Freewebsites.com server.

That felt good, for about two minutes. Reality check : who was going to
link to that page ? Who was going to even see it ? This left me wondering,
"OK, I have 10 Meg here, and I've used 3 K of it. What do I do with the
rest of this space, anyway ?" And then I thought back on my experience,
of learning how frustrating it was to try to learn much about these
groups just from those little blurbs, and an idea for a worthwhile use
for that space occurred to me. There was a job that seemed to need doing,
that past experience suggested wasn't getting done.



I started a listing site called "The Agora", on which group listings
would be the primary focus, and not an afterthought. I also went looking,
on and offline, for people to collaborate with me on this project. One
point that some seemed to have a problem with, was that the listings were
there for informational purposes, not promotional. (50 - 250 K worth of
information per group was the plan).

These listings, when fleshed out, would be reviews of the groups in
question. It is the job of the reviewer to be honest, not supportive, and
sometimes that means showing the reader things that those reviewed would
rather he didn't know about. It is a tradition, established for many, many
years and well tested by experience, that one who visits a place to do a
review, does so incognito. This should not be a surprise - if those being
dropped in on, know that their visitor is writing a review, they're going
to put on an uncharacteristically good face. Under the circumstances, what
had merely been a good piece of advice - "be careful about who you give
your real name to" - seemed to serve an invaluable second purpose. It
would help to maintain the anonymity of the reviewer.

This lead to the rule (not the suggestion) that those who did the reviews,
would never identify themselves in the community being served, either by
their real names, or by their online pen names. This lead to a certain
amount of ongoing adolescent behavior, as some would offer a variety of
conspiracy theories as to who the reviewers "really were", accompanied by
"challenges" to them to "show themselves". As if this were middle school,
and we just had to do something, if somebody "dared us to". Sorry, guys,
no go. Our buttons are not that easy to push.



After a while, this didn't seem to be working quite as well as had been
hoped. Oh, to be sure, we were finding the bad sides of the groups in
question with far greater ease than we ever imagined possible. The
problem was, that we weren't finding the other side, the good side, of
the groups we were looking at. Without that, all that a Pagan review site
becomes, is a recommendation to convert to Episcopalianism. Worse still,
I was running into a string of raving lunatics, whose lunacy had, at
least, been easy to ignore before this. After a string of incidents like
the one involving Traci, I divested myself of the Agora, out of sheer
exasperation, passing it along to somebody else, who was to pass it along
to somebody else, still, in much the same spirit. But, I had not yet
given up on the community. So, I decided to see what I could learn from
this set-back.



The problem that I had observed at the socials, was that conflicts were
resolved, not by listening to both sides and making the effort to come to
a reasonable resolution, but instead were made in such a way as to
appease the craziest and most belligerent individuals present. Yes, that
wins peace, but only in the very short term. It leaves us with a pool of
people seething in well-justified rage, drives off the reasonable, and
rewards the ill-behaved. If one rewards bad behavior, and punishes good,
one has to be a fool to expect anything other than more bad behavior.
That means, in the long run, more turmoil, not less.

The question was, how does one deal with such a problem ? My answer was,
I'm afraid, only half thought out, if even that. What I, and perhaps some
of my predecessors had failed to consider, was that the practice of
making such group descriptions a simple discussion of what the group WAS,
created a positive incentive for the group to appear as non-descript to
the visiting stranger, as possible. To be distinctive is to be different,
and in an environment where people are looking for things to complain
about, to do that, and be seen, is to make oneself a target for the next
bout of hysterical outrage. People learn to lie low, which is probably
why groups like Earthsong/Moonbeats have found themselves having trouble
getting people to do the work. It's not that the individual group
leaders are necessarily failing to do what they can to inspire the
members they have. It's that people have gotten used to the idea, of
not wanting to be noticed.

The solution I came upon, was to base the group description, not on what
the group was, but on what it did. My suggestion, which was agreed with,
was that the new group reviews would be indexes to listings of articles
about the various projects the groups were doing. What is a project ?
A project is a group activity, requiring the use of creativity and
original thought. If a group took part in no projects, it wouldn't get
a listing. Do or disappear.

The newsletter, and the Agora, then, were to be closely connected,
hence our continuing interest in both projects, at the time of the
Expo. Our feeling was that this new way of doing things, would help
to resolve a prisoner's dilemma situation which we had been contributing
to, unintentionally.


     (For those who haven't heard of that, here's the usual example :

          Picture two prisoners being interviewed separately by the
          police. If neither confesses, they both walk free. But, if
          convicted, each faces 15 years in prison. The police go
          up to each, and tell him that if he confesses, and
          testifies against his accomplice, he'll only get 2 years
          in prison, while his partner will get the full 15.

          While the two of them would be better off if neither
          confessed, if either tries to make that happier situation
          a reality on his own, and the other doesn't do as
          expected, the results are very bad. Thus, in the absence
          of any means to insure cooperative behavior, the rational
          pursuit of self-interest leads to a less than ideal solution,
          from the standpoint of the prisoners.

          As one might expect, as the number of prisoners in this
          scenario goes up, the trust issue grows in severity, to
          such a point that ultimately, the prisoner's freedom to
          not do as the police ask, becomes a merely formality.

          Such slightly counter-intuitive situations, in which
          an abundance of freedom can actually reduce the range of
          workable choices, are known as "prisoner's dilemma
          situations". The existence of such, is why governments
          exist at all, arguably).


Clearly, it is not the interest of the community, as a whole, for
the groups to appear to be non-descript, because this costs them
prospective members. Yet, if one group unilaterally decides to stand
out, it gets to be the subject of the next witch hunt, and the
resulting headaches will cost it more than it gains.

By closing that path of least resistance, and ceasing to provide
visibility for groups that don't do anything to stand out, the
local listing sites could turn the current perverse incentives
around, I felt. If all of the groups, or at least a great many
of them stopped hiding their lights under a basket at once, the
troublesome few wouldn't know which group to hit first. Further,
as the rest would potentially be exposed to the same sort of
trouble, were they to allow such abuse to stand, it would be in
their own clear and immediate self-interest to speak up in support
of the group under attack. At least, so I thought.


                                               Antistoicus

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#13 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:14 am
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt.6 		demipagan@...
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A few closing thoughts, before turning this one over to the list, on a
subject that I've barely scratched the surface of. Keep in mind that
everything here is tentative, and is thought of as being such. The surest
sign that a five year plan has failed, is that it is still being followed
five years later, because that means that people have stopped thinking
about what they're doing. Real plans are modified as one goes along.

Here, we spoke of building a tradition. But a community, some would argue,
should be a collection of traditions. Well, perhaps so. One thought, is
that this issue will tend to work itself out, to an extent. Certain Pagan
traditions derived from others. Greek culture has its roots in Egypt and
Mesopotamia - for a Hellenic pagan to study with an Egyptian or a
Judeo-Pagan group (with its roots derivative of Sumerian and Babylonian
lore) is only natural. The student thus becomes a tie between his own
group, and the group he studies from. (Likewise, Hellenism influenced
Western thought, and so Norse Pagan visitors would not be out of place at
the Shrine. Wicca is really more of an Anglo-American hodgepodge, which
depends very little on traditional Western thought, and thus a Wiccan
visitor would have little to do at the Shrine. Idle hands cause mischief,
as the sound cliche goes). I would suggest that the connections thus
formed, are all the one needs, in this area.


One objection to the extended family metaphor, for the expanding network of
groups, is that one can't choose one's family, and so this forces one to
work things out with them, giving the family a cohesiveness that this
network would lack. Perhaps, but one can work on that. I've mentioned the
notion of the Council which, while tabled as an organization, lives on as a
concept. It's the sort of thing that a more vital, tolerant community can
do, in order to strengthen the bonds of friendship within it. Also, one
might note the emphasis on the festival, rather than the ritual. A festival
is a party, with a higher purpose. Ever have a friend who you got really,
really mad at, but you had been through too much together to stay mad at
him ? Those festivals are shared memories. Make it frequent enough, and
people will end up sharing so much, that it will be easier for them to work
out their disagreements, than to get angry, and walk away.


The point that you should walk away with here, is not that this is
the future, and how things should be done. I offer no promises that
I, myself will even endorse this scheme a few years from now. It's
just a thought.

The point here is that, yes, there is a coherent alternative to the
whole notion of putting a few people in charge, that doesn't involve
putting everything to a vote, with all of the notorious instabilities
of very small-scale democracies coming into play. (I trust that we've
all heard of "banana republics". What we're witnessing here, is some
of the hysteria that comes at the end of one, in some of the flamewars
that have come about on the lists). The principle to follow here, is
not that of finding the right ruler to control the floor of
discussion, or to assemble the right collection of allies to put
a repressive order in place 'for our own good'. The answer is to
create a series of a great many experiments in religious living,
and let the ethic of honest competition between alternatives that
are honestly tried determine what it is that we end up endorsing, not who
has been the most successful at infiltrating the other's organization, or
whipping up the hysteria at his opponent's expense. There is no other
standard of success is these things worthy of our respect, or any leader
worthy of it, who would desire victory on any other terms.

Just a thought.

                                          Antistoicus

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#12 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:12 am
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt.5 		demipagan@...
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OK, fine, you say, we have these rituals, happenings, whatever, taking
place, and there still is no authoritarian structure in place. (Ever
see an actor argue with a director, before ? Authoritarianism is not
a likely direction for our 'companies' to evolve into). Now what ?

Simple. Yes, there is a usuable model for relating the different
companies to each other, and maintaining some sort of cohesion, in the
community one is building. Think of the people who founded the company
as being its parents, and its members as their children. You get sort
of a family tree going there, especially as more people enter the
community, and members of the older group, get offspring groups of
their own, going, under the supervision and guidance of those directing
their old groups. At some point, much as the parent accepts the
maturity of his child, the director of the old group accepts that
the director of the new one has gained enough experience, and proved
himself enough, for his group to be ready to claim its autonomy.

But, like the parent and child, such maturation does not break the bond
already established. Think of the rules governing the rights and
obligations of the members of extended families (who may turn to whom,
and expect support, etc), and the expectations in terms of cooperation
between companies, as one follows that family tree, perhaps should be
analagous.

Now, as while this is going on, as the network of discussion groups
spreads out, those putting thei ideas into practice, and testing them,
may find deficiencies in them. If they're doing their job right, they
will. No problem. Go find a new discussion group, talk things over with
them, maybe make a new bond. Or, perhaps, start a new discussion group
of one's own, and start the process all over again, as this new
community ever renews itself.

No authoritarian structure. Nobody in charge. No need to change that,
for the forseeable future.

Have we resurrected an old religion ? No, and and I doubt that one can.
A religion is not just a set of doctrines, it is the subculture that
gives those doctrines life. Have we created a new one ? No. What we
are creating here, is not a religion, but an idea about what a religion
might be. That idea will be refined, as shall its refinement, and the
refinement of that. And, after maybe 500 to 1000 years, one will have,
not a religion, but a real, honest living folk tradition.

When that tradition has advanced so far ahead of the existing religion,
that the deficiencies of the old religion have become a scandal, that
is when prophets and charismatic leaders are seen, not before. These
are the ones that will make a synthesis of that which has gone before,
and make a real religion, to stand the test of time.

What ? Not happy with the thought that you might not live to see a new
path form ? What can I say, other than to note that Jesus never stepped
foot into a Church, and Moses never lived to see the first Synagogue.
Such, often, is life. One may make good money, telling people what it
would be fun to believe, but the honest truth will out in the end, and
it isn't always what we would wish it would be.


                                           Antistoicus

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#11 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:09 am
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt. 4 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
This leads us to the next, natural question. Natural, that is, if one
came to Paganism from certain branches of Christianity. Darn
perplexing if you come to it from Judaism, but I am coming to
understand such things.

The question is : how does one create the consensus in even one such
discussion group, much less a diffuse network of them ? How does one
create doctrine ?

The answer is, one doesn't, and one shouldn't wish to, at least not
under the proposed philosophical terms. The argument against
evangelism in one of the arguments I gave an url to

       http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/god-copyright.html

applies with equal force, whether the evangelism is applied to another
group, or one's neighbor sitting next to one. The question is not
whether all will be in agreement. They won't be, so let that one go.
The question is whether or not there will be enough common ground,
for people to work together in an interesting way.

Let's say that, on their own, a few of the discussion group members
get together, and decide that this is so. What happens next ? Very
simple. It is no great secret that Solitary Paganism is extremely
widespread in the Artistic community. Some would argue that it has
been, for centuries. In general, I would argue that it is a good thing,
anyway, for those with scientific or other scholarly interests to
maintain artistic interests as well, as a matter of general personal
rounding. (It makes for a richer life, and enhances one's creativity
and productivity). In the course of pursuing an interest, one makes
friends. Invite those friends to drop by.

These members find members with theatrical, musical, and other artistic
backgrounds who would be interested in creating ritual and other events,
rooted in the ideas brought to them. Think of those who have created
the ideas as the producers for a theatrical company. These are the ones
who say "dazzle me", and decide which projects proceed. Think of one
of the artists they've intrigued, as being the director.

In the description of the primary group described, we based modeled in
on something that those of scholarly backgrounds are already used to,
and have found works well for them - the network of academic discussion
groups. (The value suggested, are those common to a few traditional
extended family cultures, and, not coincidentally, to much of academia,
in which those coming from such cultures are heavily represented). It
is good to sitck to what people are used to, when it works. On this same
principle, the model for the groups at this second, supporting stage
is that of the threatrical company, in which those of a more artistic
bent, seem happiest.

Yes, visual artists have created a much different culture than that
of the theatre. I understand that. But, theatrical comapnies have had
a good deal of success with honoring the lone wolf tendencies more
common to that branch of the artistic community, and there is no reason
what a Pagan theatrical community could not continue that desirable
past performance.


                                                  Antistoicus

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#10 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:07 am
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt.3 		demipagan@...
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Here's a brief sketch of a few further ideas about community building,
in the post-elder period.

You've seen the notion of a semi-order introduced, and a few objections
and questions may arise. One is, how does such an organization manage
to levy funds, in the absence of a presiding elder, or ruling council ?

The answer is, that it doesn't, because it doesn't need to. This is not
intended to be a large group, needing a huge structure to meet in. (Not
that any local Pagan group in existence is such a group anyway, at this
point). What we're setting up, at this stage in the game, are the small
discussion groups (or, "Socratic discussion circles", as some would
call them), that create the ideas, that later ritual will be built on.

The needs of such groups are simple ones, as are their activities. The
basic rite of Classical Paganism, to take our own case, is a sort of
communal meal, at which those who take part will bring stories, poems
and essays to read to those present, others may sing songs they have
written, or perform small plays they have written. This has lead to
the old joke about Classical Paganism being the "dinner theatre"
religion. In Asatru, one has the Althing, at which, perhaps, similar
things might be done, over a shared horn of mead.

"How is one to find spiritual guidance in such a place". One isn't
supposed to find it there, at all. That's not what it's for. Such a
gathering is for those who wish to work on the creation of ideas,
not for those who wish to be hande them in finished form, and will
tremble in perplexed outrage when some are contradicted. Nor, really
is it for those who wish to see elaborately choreographed rituals
presented in finished form. What is emphasized at this level, and
stage of development, aside from the process of discussion, is more
the small, low key festival (like the Saturnalia observance
described on our site), than the preplanned ritual.

Nor are the groups at this stage for all, as the list of suggested
places to find new members in my last post might have suggested.
It is a reality, established through lengthy experience, that
degrees will be expected of those who lead. We accept this reality,
but instead of calling for degrees in "magick", in programs
assembled by those who owe their influence to their success in
silencing their opposition, it is our view that a better approach
would be to call for degrees awarded by accredited universities,
where status is a reflection of one's past accomplishments, in an
atmosphere of honest, civil and reasoned discourse. Membership
in a group of this nature is, then, to be limited to the well
(and formally educated). Thes members, then, will work together
on the creation of offbranch groups designed to meet the needs of
a broader segment of the community.

It may be realistically hoped, based on the history of such
individuals, that the philosophical discussions that such an
endevor calls for, may be carried out without producing the violent
rages and calls for censorship seen from the "elders", when the
strength of their arguments is not great enough for them to
prevail on their own merits.


                                      Antistoicus

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#9 From: demipagan@...
Date: Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:05 am
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt. 2 		demipagan@...
Send Email Send Email
  
Note : there is a quote that I have heard somebody claim comes
        from "The Egyptian Book of the Dead" (*), that
        goes "When I am quiet, I know the things that gods know".

        As I have heard it used, it has nothing to do with the
        development of delusions of grandeur. It refers to the
        notion that the gods, in their own way, seek to speak to
        all, and one need only be willing to listen, to hear.

        "You mean, you hear the voice of Aphrodite ?" No, of course
        not. This is an honor reserved to the prophets. The gods
        will speak to us, to all of us (and not just the High
        Priest trying to sell you his latest book), through the
        experiences that life brings one, and through moments of
        clarity that will come to one, if one prays for them, and
        has found the inner calm needed to notice (1).

        For this, what is needed is the capacity for calm, patient,
        and rational examination of those experiences, and one's
        thoughts regarding them. It is for this reason that one
        steps into the sactuary alone, in silence, with no company
        present to disturb one's thought, but the goddess herself.
        It was for this reason, that Vicki Carlson and Atheleas would
        have had to be shown the door quickly, even had they not
        defined themselves out of membership in the Council, by
        voiding the social contract that defined their presence
        within it. The very sort of rational discourse which they
        fought so hard to stifle, is essential to our communion with
        those we serve. Its preservation can't be a negotiating point.

        Worse, the turmoil they arouse, seeking to be granted that
        which they must not have, disturbs that calm that allows one
        to hear, in the metaphorical sense described.


To have such things as elders, and their "teachings" (read : dogmatic
opinions), merely gets in the way. So, the question arises, how do we
dispense with them ? Look at the response of the Holy City Temple, and
the Temple of Sancta Sophia, merely to being told to go away, and the
widspread endorsement their abuses saw among the other elders.

Realistically, they won't agree to simply go away. One game that we
have found that some of their followers are fond of playing, is to
walk in, and act like the Shrine was a subsidiary of their own
particular branch of Wicca, regardless of what they are actually told,
going in. Picture a Christian fundamentalist walking into a Circle
casting, and hallucinating a mass that he then takes part in.
It's like that, and it's why we stopped posting a public ritual
schedule. It's also why we don't identify ourselves to outsiders, as
members of the Shrine.

There is a phrase for what the acolytes were doing. It's called
"civil disobedience", The traditional aim of such behavior is to
get one's way, by wearing down those who disagree with one's goals.
It can be a real, disruptive time-waster. The question that arose
on another list, is how one keeps such efforts from succeeding,
and to contain the harassment from those who won't abide the notion
of a Pagan effort being left running, without them being in control
of it. The answer is not one of head-on confrontation, in the long
run, but of side-stepping the offending effort.

One doesn't continue the fight in perpetuity, but rather, finds a
more peaceful place to do one's work.

________________________________________________________________________

                     excerpt from earlier post
________________________________________________________________________



     1. How could I have done this better ?

        Better one should ask, how could I have done this worse ? One
        thing that I needed to get past, was the idea that being in a
        "central location", puts one in a good place to assemble a
        group. As in, "where better to find Pagans to join a group,
        than in the general Pagan community ?" Well, that's on a level
        with "where better to find a date, than at the local singles'
        hang-out, something we all learned was a REALLY BAD IDEA, long
        before the ink was dry on our fake IDs. The question is, what
        kind of Pagans are you going to meet there (and will they
        respect you in the morning) ?



        Forget the "Pagan" (read : "Occult") bookstores. Forget the Pagan
        community. Avoid these like they were Ebola wards. Instead, in the
        case of a younger Pagans' group like ours, look to advertising on
        the college campuses, and in the regular used bookstores (and the
        regular coffeehouses) one feels comfortable in. "Regular",
        non-Pagan people can be a lot more open minded than they are given
        credit for being, especially when they are relatively
        well-educated. There are literary, and philosophical discussion
        groups that one knows that one might like to attend. Go. Meet
        people. A lot of people. Get comfortable with them, and be
        reservedly open about what it is that one believes. Bring business
        cards (url included) for those occasions on which somebody proves
        to be interested.

        For good measure, host such groups oneself, and get out of the
        Pagan ghetto. It isn't such a nice place.

        In my first post about the Shrine, I mentioned something called
        a "semi-order". I didn't really invent those. The concept is a
        formalization of how both academic discussion groups, and the
        informal network of connections in some extended family cultures
        have traditionally operated. At some point, common interests
        will tend to cause certain groups of people, within a network of
        overlapping discussion circles, to pool together. At
        some point, one would never be sure of exactly when, one of one's
        discussion sections might evolve into a Pagan group. Naturally, it
        would inherit the structure of the network that gave rise to it.



     2. It would be wise for us to remember where we are, and be good
        Chicagoans, so long as we are here. If somebody one doesn't know
        asks for one's real name, one don't respond by telling him one's
        life story. Instead, with hand on hip, one looks him in the eye,
        and says, "who's asking, buddy ?".

        While in group, and dealing with those we haven't gotten to know,
        yet, it would be prudent to stick to nicknames and pseudonyms,
        and not mention where we're from, or where we work. That way, if
        somebody wishes to play the attrition game, and start harassing
        and attacking the reputation of those who don't "go along to get
        along" ... what good does it do him to spread rumors about
        "Iphicles", if nobody knows who "Iphicles" is ? We would further
        make sure to not use those "craft names" (to borrow a phrase from
        our Wiccan friends) outside of the group.



(*) Apparently, not is actual title, which I seem to recall translates
     to something closer to "The Book of Walking by Day". I'll have to
     check on that, though, I'm not sure.

(1) This relates to a discussion of the role of myth
     in our tradition at

            http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/myth-aphrodite.html

     and to that of authority at

            http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/preauthority.html

     The upshot of this, is that allowing the elders to stay,
     derails the entire process by which myth continues to be made.



                                              Antistoicus

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#7 From: paganlistings@...
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:23 pm
Subject:: A few brief, but awkward closing questions 		paganlistings@...
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Referring back to the forwarded material which you've just seen :

      1. How can we, as elders, ask our children to respect us, when
         it is so often we that the ones that are acting like
         children, ourselves ? Should respect be the reward of age,
         or of maturity ? The two are not the same.

      2. By what right does the Wiccan community complain about
         Christian prejudice, when it so clearly displays its
         own prejudice against the smaller Pagan communities in
         its midst ? Look at the accounts I have forwarded to
         you. Has there even been the faintest hint of equity
         in these dealings ?

      3. Is it proper, in an allegedly open forum, for the moderator
         to be censoring people on behalf of her adulterous love
         interest ?

      4. Is it a good thing, that the community has now gone without
         a newsletter for over a year now, because an embezzler
         in the community wanted it that way ? What kind of community
         allows its crooks to make the rules like that ?

      5. Aren't you glad the Christian fundamentalists haven't gotten
         a hold of these delightful little stories, yet ? They don't
         exactly cast the community in a light it would like to be
         seen in, do they ? How long does a situation denied
         a just resolution, stay a secret ?

                                         Pat Cottard

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#6 From: demipagan@...
Date: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:36 pm
Subject:: One alternative to authoritarianism, pt. I 		demipagan@...
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Let's start by explaining what the Shrine was, and is. This was
addressed in a series of posts on another list. As you can see, the
differences between it, and Sancta Sophia or the Holy City Temple,
ran a good deal deeper than a difference over who should be in charge.
One of the main issues here, was whether anybody should be "in charge"
at all.

A few notes and relevant urls for further explanation have
been inserted.

___________________________________________________________________


First of all, it was a group for (currently) younger (post-baby
boomer) Hellenic Pagans here in Chicago. Among other virtues, this
gave us a place to meet others our own age, while we still were our
own age. For reasons that I have mentioned in part, often, that is
not easily done in this city. Given the aspect of Aphrodite that we
are especially concerned with, the promotion of social interaction
is an appropriate part of our mission statement, so this is not an
irrelevant luxury. Also, given the "in loco parentis" mentality we
have encountered far too often, offensively far into our adult
lives, it was a pleasure to take a break from our elders, and a
long overdue one at that.

The Shrine was devoted to all of the Hellenic gods, but
especially to Aphrodite Urania. Gods willing, it will be
these things again. I'll get to that in a little bit.

   (mention of the business with Sancta Sophia deleted)

The Shrine was, and will be, on what would probably be termed as
being near the far end of the Rationalist wing of the Pagan
community, embracing something called "Metaphysical Empiricism",
in which ideas about the Divine are tested against individual life
experience, with very little, if any, emphasis on visions, trances,
and the like. If the gods wish to speak to us, that is a wonderful
thing, but if somebody has been starving himself without sleep for
three days, we're more likely to term what follows a "hallucination"
than a "shamanic vision", and would hesitate to give it credence.
Spell casting, astrology, UFOs, etc. are not areas of interest
for us. Philosophy, History, the Arts, etc. are.

      http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/god-copyright.html

This approach has lead to a (somewhat) unusual view of divinity,
in which the gods are thought of as existing in a dreamlike state,
brought to a fuller awareness of our own portion of existence
(if not their own) through the intense emotional connection with
the worshipper that occurs during prayer. (Hence the name of the
Shrine). It is the promotion of that communion with the Divine,
and what it inspires, that is the mission of the Shrine. Spell
casting, even if we believed in it, would be beside the point,
which is a focus on how we live in this world.



The Shrine is a Demipagan, as opposed to a Neo-Pagan group.
(I'm sure that you've noticed the vanity user ID, by now). This
does not specifically mean that one includes the god of Israel,
or Jesus in one's pantheon, though many demipagans do (eg.
Judeo-Pagans and Christo-Pagans, such as Mayan synchretists).
What it does mean, is that instead of creating a historical
discontinuity, as one inevitably must if one discards the
non-Pagan traditions outright, one considers what it is that
one can keep from one's own immediate non-Pagan heritage.

          http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/demipagan.html
          http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/christ-index.html

To this core of retained tradition, we add those elements we
can find of the old, suppressed Paleo-Pagan religion, that did
not survive into the Christian religions that are derivative of it,
and which one feels are worthy of revival. (The offering of first
fruits, yes, the offering of the pharmakoi, no, unless maybe in a
bloodless, symbolic sense). What results is not the original, but
a melange of ancient and modern tradition, with a modern sensibility
informed by a study of older writings. At no point, however, do we
confuse, or are we to encourage the confusion, of the modern material
with the older source material from which it is in part derived.

An expression used here is "eclecticism in time, rather than
space". What this means, is that in fleshing out the fragmentary
older source material, instead of relying of material from
contemporary, but unrelated Pagan societies, we make use of the Pagan
and non-Pagan sequels (and prequels) to the Pagan tradition of
interest. For example, in attempting to reconstruct the story of
Aphrodite and Adonis from the summaries and commentary that comes
down to us, I felt free to draw on the extent story of the descent
of Ishtar, which may plausibly be argued to be the earlier
source material that the Hellenic story derived from.

            http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/adonis2.html

I would not have considered using material from the Eddas, even
if they did prove to be of equal antiquity (doubtful), given the
lack of Germanic influence on Ancient Hellenic society. A Roman
demipagan, on reconstructing the Saturnalia, might rely in part
on the surviving, and derivative tradition of Epiphany, or "Twelfth
Night", from those countries that grew out of the debris of the
Roman Empire. He would not be interested in any Confucian festivals
that bore a coincidental resemblance to the Saturnalia.

The driving question, as synchretism is considered here (in any
form), is whether or not it is historically justified. The Shrine
is predominantly Hellenic, with some Latin elements in its practice
(reflecting a culture which derived in large part from the Hellenic),
and Levantine elements in its mythology (reflecting Greece's own
cultural roots). The occasional insistence, from the outside, that
we be more "multicultural" (usually heard from Wiccans who decided
that they were our elders, too), was firmly refused, up until the
time of the disruption of the first Shrine, which came all too
close to the time of its founding.

The countries the modern, post-Pagan portion of its tradition
derives from, were and are to be those of the Latin West (Italy,
France, Spain and Portugal) as well as those of Greece, herself,
of course. This proved, and frequently proves, to be a source of
friction between those who have tried to make the Shrine happen,
and the self-appointed "elders" of the Chicago Pagan community.


      Note : "Remember, 'inclusiveness' in P.C. only includes
             you, if your culture happens to be fashionable
             this week, you charmingly backward Mediterranean
             type, you." Not a real quote, but darn close to
             things people actually have said, most of which
             wouldn't be printable here.

             One might note, that it takes more than a week
             to produce a culture with any depth.


One might ask "do you mean merely the religious traditions of these
countries, or the cultural traditions as well ?". How does one
separate the two ? The arts have traditionally, at first, served
faith in these lands, quite openly, and religion has continued to
inform the philosophies which have found expression in the
arts subsequently.

You get one, and you get the other, to a very substantial degree.



I am sure that most of you already know who Aphrodite Urania is,
but for those who don't, she is the aspect of Aphrodite concerned
with "Celestial Love". (Hence the second part of the name, which
refers to the heavens - "Ouranos", the father of Cronos). In the
original conception of Urania, she was probably simply a force
that moved the heavens, but Celestial Love went on to be thought
of as Higher Love. That is to say, the love one family member
feels for another, that what feels for a friend, that which forges
the bonds of extended family and community.

Sex is not necessarily disparaged. It may, indeed, be highly valued,
as the intense passions one feels in the beginning, help build
the feeling of attachment that the deeper bonds of marriage and
family grow out of, and, when experienced by those of good
character, can be both a pleasurable and ennobling thing. But it
is not, on its own, what the cult of Urania is about, and those
who would visit our Shrine seeking a casual sexual encounter,
would most likely be in for a truly unpleasant surprise.




As proved truly confusing to the elder of the invading coven,
when she sought to attack the reputation of the High Priest
of her acquisition-to-be, the Shrine was, and shall remain,
a circle of equals, accepting neither Priest nor Priestess. In
part, this is a reflection of a desire to accept Divine will.
We do not feel that any has the right to establish a priesthood
for a deity, save that deity herself, and having found no
prophets, we have found no priesthood, and no sign that
Aphrodite desires one.

      Note : The view of the nature of Divinity also provided an
             objection to the notion of establishing a priesthood,
             in the case of our group.

             See : http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/preauthority.html


At most, we have a moderator, whose only job is to maintain
just enough order for the members to associate in an unobstructed
and productive fashion, who is oath bound to claim no spiritual
authority, and who is simply whoever has decided to organize
whichever event we are at.


      Note : The nature of that role is explained at

                 http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/postindex.html


The post rotates. In other words, we are neither democratic nor
authoritarian, but are an anarchy structured only by the oaths
we take, and the customs that arise from them. Thus, when the
Priestess attempted to seize control of the political machinery
governing the Shrine, she found that there was nothing to grab
a hold of. The members simply moved around and past her faction,
like the water of a river, past an obstacle.

Unfortunately, we were far too open, far too casually with her,
one of many foolish mistakes on my part, which will not be
repeated. Membership in the Shrine is a confidential matter,
with the members now urged to use pseudonyms on the Internal
Mailing List, in order to maintain that confidentiality. Should
a repeat of the unfortunate political incidents of before occur,
the attacker will never know from which direction the response
will come, a fact which should serve to deter such efforts.

Because the post of moderator rotates, and each enjoys broad
discretion within the limitations his oaths require, the
membership list rotates as well, those being banned on one list,
possibly being honored on another. Thus, the Shrine was at once
one group, and several, finding unity under the roof of one
household, and still being divided when meeting under another.
A curious situation, perhaps, but one that I would not seek to
change in the course of rebuilding.

This is not an organization in the usual sense, then, but
neither is it a disorganized group of individuals, but rather,
something in between, that we had to learn how to define.

Let's call it a semi-order.

_____________________________________________________________________

           Some discussion then followed, about how to
           protect an organization from destructive
           interference from the outside, while it was
           growing. This raised the question of whether
           by doing so, one solved a problem or merely
           delayed it. This was addressed in a subsequent
           post, on the same list.
_____________________________________________________________________


One might say, that if the group grows large enough, it will gain
attention, and one is back to one's previous problems. But, a
semi-order, by its very nature, is going to be decentralized.
Even if the network of associations formed were to grow into the
thousands, that wouldn't mean that the original gathering would
grow to be much larger than the two dozen or so it originally was.
It would mean it would overlap with branches of the semi-order set
up by those members, which in turn would overlap with ... and so
on, going outward. At this point, hearing that there are members
of that particular network in an area, is like hearing that
there are Catholics in Naperville. Absolutely true, and
culturally significant, but, as a political bit of information,
utterly useless.

Where is an attacker going to hit ? It's a diffuse, and
widespread, though densely interwoven network, not
centralized group. Fine, she hits one little pocket. So what ?
Big deal. Through the grapevine, people will have heard of
others, not so far away, they go there for a bit, and
no measurable damage is done.


       Note : Some further discussion occurred, regarding the
              relationship of a semi-order, to a more structured
              networking organization (no, not the Council) that
              was, and is arising, of which we said :


It gives stability to the community. It can bring members of
the community together for large, well organized efforts. The
Shrine, on the other hand, was and would be akin to a system
of coffee klatsches, or extended family gatherings (fictive
relatives included). The participants in a klatsch may join
the PTA, or chamber of commerce, but it would be
most curious for the klatsch itself to seek to do so.

At most, the membership might seek to take part in a chapter
they might individually join. But the purpose, at the Shrine,
is to create community (with its network of informal connections),
not to organize it. Should it succeed, it would no longer even
think of itself as being an organization. It would simply be a
hard-to-define patch, in a larger social network, no longer even
needing a name, or a distinct institutional identity.


                                         Antistoicus

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