i can think of one area leader who apparently imagines themselves to
be godlike: i can only discribe him in the following terms:
-he wanted to play touch football, but nobody wanted to touch him
-appearancewise, he resembles the third guy from the left on the
evolution chart.
-he cant go for a walk in the woods for fear that someone will throw
a net over him, thinking theyve just caught sasquacht
-he gets all his hair care products from petco
-he has a bumper sticker that says; "im easy to get along with, as
long as you bow down and worship me!"
antistochius, ill leave you to guess who it is im talking about.
i only call it "a man" because it walks upright on two legs".
Out of curiosity, I went over to telepathicmedia.com to see
what was going on. Not much, really. Ever since Witchschool
began, Ed's old scams ... er, spiritual endeavors ... seem
to have fallen by the wayside. Most of the links weren't even
working any more, except for one which took me over to Witch
School and the faculty bios, where some mildly amusing
reading was waiting for me.
Quoting from Don Lewis' bio at
http://www.witchschool.com/fns/donlewis.asp, we have :
" Don is also Chief Priest and founding Temple Head of
Chicago's Holy City Temple, founded in 1591 Pisces (1991 AD).
Don is the son of the blv. Lady LaVeda, former Regent of
the Correllian Tradition. Don is the head of the Mabelline
branch of the High-Correll family. He has been an initiated
Priest of the Correllian Tradition since 1576 Pisces (1976
AD), and a Third Degree High Priest since 1579 Pisces
(1979 AD). "
Now, here's reality.
I first met Mr.Lewis in the late 1990s. 1997, I believe. He was
running the so-called "Holy City Temple" out of a small room in
Albany Park, right down the street to the east of the last
stop on the Ravenswood. There was no large group meeting there.
There couldn't have been. Even with only three of us present
at that meeting, the room was getting a little crowded. You
could probably find the location of the old room in an
old copy of "the Pipes of Pan"
That was six years after the alleged start of the temple.
If there was a multitude of other members, we never saw them
appear at Pagan's Night out at Konak's, or at the Pagan
Coffeehouse at Yo Mama's (yes, that's its real name). Not
for years. This leads me to a question.
More than a few of us have had the experience of being stabbed
in the back by Don and his friends, of being subjected to
mudslinging and whispering campaigns carried out at our
expense. This has disrupted a community that Don and Ed
claimed to care greatly about, scattering much of its
membership. Some of us, at first, wondered why.
Maybe this is why. When Ed and Don go out to sell magic
lessons, being able to talk about their years and years
serving as high priest in this family tradition helps their
business. How inconvenient for their sales pitch if those
of us who were there in the community with them, as they
began their rise really not so very long ago, are there to
say "Ed. Don. Get real. We knew you when you barely had a
storefront, and no members of this famtrad you're talking
about were ever to be seen".
Deliberately destroying a community for the sake of getting
rid of the witnesses when they go out to do a little myth
making? Not too cool, but such would seem to be the case.
--- In IL-PagansCenter@yahoogroups.com, "antistoicus"
<antistoicus@y...> wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted to WildOnionNetwork. I won't hazard a guess as to
whether or not it will post.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Heard about this, and decided that this was too 'good'
to pass up.
--- In WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Eric Roberts"
<woad@w...> wrote:
> Dane,
> As I asked you to do, and you failed to do, in the past,
> where is the proof that Ed or anyone associated did
> something wrong? Until you, Ayla, Antistoicus, or anyone
> else (who BTW all have a past history with Ed and have
> personal issues with Ed, so their opinion is colored by
. a personal hatred of Ed...
* much ranting snipped * (Interesting that Eric waited until
AFTER I announced my departure from this list to toss this out).
> to keep your mouth shut and stop spreading lies, because
> unless you can prove it...that is all it is...nothing but lies
> driven by personal hated.
> When the issue of the books for Africa...you made claims
> that he was doing something unethical.
Eric, you've got to be kidding me. The man advertised the
lodge in question on his own website, as you should be able
to confirm by visiting the archived copy of his homepage
at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://wwww.telepathicmedia.com/
TelepathicMedia.com being one of the most heavily networked
Pagan sites in existence, the >only< reason a page from that
site would be missing would be because the webmaster had
asked archive.org to leave it out. In the process of leaving
a single page out, broken links will be left behind, so even if
Ed decides to play the Richard Nixon tape erasing game and
take the incriminating page out of the archives, the broken
links will be left behind. Willfully destroyed evidence must
be presumed unfavorable to the person destroying it, a thought
to ponder as we now notice that one of Ed's allies has blocked
public access to the Il-Pagans archives where Ed did a lot of
a lot of the backbiting I referred to, earlier.
Real estate costs real money. Ed helps run an alleged "not
for profit" organization and as for his own personal finances,
in 2000, he was well known in this community as being somebody
a few steps away from homelessness, having been taken in by
Don Lewis because he had nowhere else to stay. And yet he has
the money to buy real estate on the other side of the world?
Where did he get the money for that, Eric? I'm sure we've all
heard the expression "no visible means of support". Charitable
contributions are handed to Ed. Ed can not account for their
disposition. Ed suddenly has possession of something he hasn't
the personal funds to buy and no explanation of how this happened.
Would you like me to draw you a road map? :)
I am left incredulous by the suggestion that I've offered no
"proof" for my allegations regarding his behavior during the
Sancta Sophia incident; the page linked to is one of the most
extensively documented accounts of an incident in this community
ever written, the relevant letters are attached and I held
onto the originals. I've offered to cc copies of those letters,
headers attached, repeatedly, only to be stonewalled by a number
of the people who joined in on Ed's campaign of defamation back
in 2000, YOURSELF INCLUDED. How much more evidence do you want?
What I find truly disturbing is the suggestion that having been
stabbed in the back by Mr.Hubbard and his faction back during
2000, when I was volunteering my own time and my own money,
neither of which I had in abundance, to get a newsletter going
for this ungrateful community, that Mr.Hubbard's now covered up
online misdeeds should be viewed as something that reflects on
my character and not his own. Sir, how dare you? Seriously.
One claim I can truthfully make and nobody with so much as a
touch of integrity and a knowledge of the history of this
community will deny at this point, is that my honor is above
reproach and I take honesty to the point of being anal retentive
about it. I've been sighted standing in line waiting to return
a 10 cent overpayment in change to the cashier, and by now,
it should be fairly obvious that unlike some here, I never play
to the crowd. Can you say the same? So don't you dare even think
of tossing so much as a speck of mud in my direction, Roberts.
C**p like this is why I shun Wiccans in general, and this
community in particular. It is almost like you people are
constitutionally incapable of passing up an opportunity to
use another as a stepping stone toward your own political
goals. As the refrain goes, "this is supposed to be religion?".
I'd have to wonder about the deity who'd felt honored by service
such as this. And with that, gentlefolk, I wash my hands of
Eric, this forum and this community forever. You've had
opportunity enough to do right by me and mine and taken a
gloating pleasure in doing wrong for the better part of a
decade. Enough is enough. You're dead in my eyes.
Antistoicus
--- End forwarded message ---
From: Antistoicus Demipagan <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 4:43 pm
Subject: Fwd: Could you edit your last post a bit?
ADVERTISEMENT
This is classic. Watch Jeff try to cover his
backside with this letter which, by the way,
came after the last one I forwarded and after
the current dispute had been going for a while.
If any of you were thinking of giving this guy
one ounce of support in his troubles, learn
from my mistakes. I am so glad that these
people no longer know where I live.
By the way, also notice that faced with political
pressure, he's taken to covering for Ed.
--- Jeffrey Benner <Jeffrey@e...> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:14:05 -0500
> To: antistoicus@y...
> From: Jeffrey Benner <Jeffrey@e...>
> Subject: Could you edit your last post a bit?
>
> Could you resend your last post without the bit
> about Lori's "cowardice"
> and other strong words? Like "lie cheat and steal",
> that seemed a bit
> strong too. Keep in mind we can't prove some of what
> you say, though I
> believe it is probably quite true.
>
> Preserve the facts but please try not to say things
> that will get more
> people to unsubscribe. Keep in your mind that these
> people may just be
> confused, feeble minded, and well-intentioned. Not
> necessarily evil.
>
> I agree with your main point but I am trying to
> prevent any more unsubs. If
> you could help me out with that I would appreciate.
> I will substitute your
> new post for the one you just sent. Please keep
> rethinking the emotional
> impacts of words you use, because otherwise your
> posts are great.
>
> Thanks for your participation.
>
> Jef
>
From: Antistoicus Demipagan <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 4:37 pm
Subject: Fwd: Please tone down your posts
ADVERTISEMENT
--- Jeffrey Benner <Jeffrey@e...> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:28:56 -0500
> To: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
> From: Jeffrey Benner <Jeffrey@e...>
> Subject: Please tone down your posts
> CC: debbie@v...,
> tagjalast@a..., KAdams@i...
>
> Joe (antistoicus),
>
> Kathy Adams just left over your last post to her. I
> am not going to see
> people leaving over the tone of your comments. There
> is a nicer way to say
> what you are saying - also you don't need to fight
> over ever little thing.
> From now on I am moderating your posts until I see
> you talking in a more
> genteel fashion. You started out that way.
>
> Kathy, please don't stay away for long. We value
> your contribution to the
> list. The current controversy is likely to die down
> shortly.
>
> Jef
>
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 4:33 pm
Subject: Jeff Benner shows his true colors
ADVERTISEMENT
My previous post never made it onto WildOnionNetwork. Mr.Benner,
true to the very reputation which I had been trying to argue
was undeserved, abused his discretion as moderator in order
to ... well, you'll see.
Oh, and note the use of the first name, hinting that he's going
to out me as a Pagan if I don't back down. Rather futily, as the
inspirational experience of dealing with the Chicago Pagan
community helped make a regular church goer of me, but mighty
sleazy all the same.
Benner writes :
> Well, Joe (antistoicus/demipagan) has told me unless i let
> all his posts on WildOnionNetwork through without any
> suggestion of changing them he will leave the group.
Note to Il-PagansCenter : As you can see just by reading the
copy of that post here (message 613, I believe) that's a bald
faced lie, and what a fine reward for having been the sole
defender of the moderators during this dispute.
> His posts will be available at his own Group at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Il-PagansCenter/message/609
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Il-PagansCenter/message/610
> But Joe, I am not going to let you alienate large numbers
> of people with very emotionally charged labels, accusing
> them of "cowardice", etc.
Labels which the facts thorough justify the use of (message
609). Pleasant talk about values like "integrity" and "courage"
means little if we can't speak about the extent to which these
values are lived up to. Or not, as the case is, here.
> I can't just keep letting you write the way you do.
> There is a nicer way to write and you are capable,
> but you don't want to.
Yes, you're Jeff, you're right. When somebody launches a
personal attack against me, I'm not going to be "nice"
about it, ie. I'm not going to mind my place.
> So if you have to leave, then please do so. Everyone who
> wants to read Joe's stuff please go to IL-PagansCenter.
> Joe I welcome your contributions
Jeff, I've got better places to be.
> but you can't keep pissing people off left and right
> with these emotional labels and picking fights over
> little things constantly.
Nice revisionism, Benner, but as the record clearly
shows (or would if you hadn't censored it) I was responding
to fights which had been picked with me, not picking
them myself.
> If you want you can write whatever you want on
> IL-PagansCenter and then keep posting links about
> it on WildOnionNetwork, but constant emotional
> name-calling I can't allow because I don't want
> to lose a bunch of subscribers over you.
Translation : Sorry to have to screw you over, Stowee,
but membership numbers have to be maintained, so bend
over you big Hellenistic galoot. This won't hurt a bit.
> So I guess history repeats itself. Sorry.
Apology not accepted, Jeff. Here't the rebuttal I'm about
to send to his list. What do you want to bet it's going
to be censored?
------------------- start of post ---------------------
Jeff, this was low. Not only do you keep me from being able to
be heard in my own words, but your going to use your position
as the moderator in order to make sure to be able to launch a
person attack in such a way as to be shielded from rebuttal?
It's enough to make me wonder if the other side had a point
about your moderatorial style. For the record, Il-PagansCenter
is not my list. It was somebody else's good idea. Also, for
the record, no ultimatums were issued. I simply announced my
departure from the list and gave my reasons. Period. The actual
post which Jeff blocked can be found at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Il-PagansCenter/message/613
I deeply regret having ever spoken up on your behalf, Mr.Benner,
and I assure you that it is a mistake which I will not repeat.
As usual, this will be crossposted to Il-PagansCenter.
Antistoicus
------------------------ end of post --------------------------
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 3:56 pm
Subject: And saying goodbye to Jeff and WildOnion re :censorship
ADVERTISEMENT
Sorry about the multiple postings; for some reason the
title didn't appear the first time and then back-arrowing
to recover the post produced strange results.
Not that I was really surprised, the Reader's Circuit's
radfem tendencies being as notorious as they are, but
I got to watch Jeff play favorites on the list.
Making one's case too persuasively is an inherently
uncivil act? Tells on a lot about the values of this
alleged religious community.
--------------- start of my post ----------------------
To: WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com
From: antistoicus <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 3:31 pm
Subject: And I'm out of here !
Here are the urls of two posts of mine which Jeff blocked, which
I had the foresight to copy and repost to Il-PagansCenter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Il-PagansCenter/message/609http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Il-PagansCenter/message/610
Jeff, if you block this post, too, I'll be sure to spread the
word and this post far and wide.
I got your e-mail about how Ms.Adams allegedly quit over
the last post of mine you didn't block. Politics by temper
tantrum is something I got tired of back in 2000; it's a big
part of why I've taken to avoiding your community. I came here
solely to speak up on your behalf because I felt you were being
treated unjustly, and now I find that you're rolling over on
me for the sake of political expedience.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I'll be cross-posting
this to Il-PagansCenter and watching your list just long enough
to see if it posts. But after that, I'm unsubscribing. No
reasonable person could maintain that the posts I sent were any
harsher than that which they came in response to, or deny that
they were considerably more fair, and I'm not going to let myself
be used as a verbal punching back on behalf of an ingrate.
Have a nice day.
Antistoicus
--------------------- end of post ----------------------
B'bye. And some people wonder why Wiccans are unwelcome
as visitors to the Shrine! Call it a philosophical difference
http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/introval.html
The ethical incentives around here have gotten a little
too perverse for my tastes.
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 2:32 pm
Subject: Lori Dake chimes up on WildOnion; my reply
ADVERTISEMENT
And here, we got to learn something about the ethical views
of a woman who wants you to trust her enough for you to leave
your children with her.
---------------------- start of my post --------------------
To: WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com
From: antistoicus <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 2:29 pm
Subject: Re: WitchSchool needs our support
--- In WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com, Lori Dake
<doomdiva@y...> wrote:
> Ed, what you guys are doing is truly a miraculous thing.
> Congratulations on getting your webside school into
> mortar and concrete - which, to many "outsiders", makes
> anything "legit".
* snip *
> To you nay-sayers... I'm sorry to be blunt (who? me?),
> but shame on you. Instead of rallying around WitchSchool
> in a time of true need, all you can do is pull up a lot
> of past grievances. Get over yourselves. Please.
"America. The only country on earth where a "dissident" is
defined as being somebody who has the courage it takes to
fanatically agree with what 90% of the people around him
are saying." I wish I could take credit for that one, but
I can't. It goes back to the earliest days of Usenet, and
has remained applicable as the political winds have shifted
twice. Sad to say, it's especially applicable here.
Lori, shame on yourself, not only for kissing up to this mob
Ed has assembled and trying to pass off your cowardice as
courage, but for getting it so wrong, so incredibly wrong.
In case you've forgotten, Paganism is supposed to be religion.
Bricks and mortars aren't what gives it credibility, and Ed's
endless (and more than slightly tacky) scramble for self-
promotion most certainly isn't what gives it credibility.
One need only look at the Christian world whose approval you
so seem to crave to see that this is so. Jesus had 12
assistants, a small handful of followers and a solid claim on
"homeless" status. A certain recently resigned archbishop had
a flock in the tens of thousands, magnificent houses of
worship (dating back over a century) under his administration,
and a budget that some CEOs would kill for. Which of the two
carries more credibility in the American mainstream?
What gives a religious community credibility is its character,
its commitment to principle. When Mr.Hubbard can lie, cheat,
steal and backstab his way to the top of an alleged religious
community and the general response is that the rest of us,
victims included, should look the other way and be silent
about his abuses because mentioning them is bad for business,
the principles being seen are those of one of the nastier
corners of the corporate world. Or, maybe a corrupt small
town. The corporation, at least, can offer some real material
rewards to those who sell their souls in order to fit in. The
Reader Circuit can only pay in candles and petty cash.
The greater good of the community is being served? Not really.
Like it or not, folks, the world is watching you, and not
just because an account of some rather sordid antics involving
the leaders of this community now sits where a heavily
connected networking site used to be. It's watching you because
you've asked it to take you seriously as a religious community
and representatives of a new religious movement, and the
moment you do that, you can't help but get attention. Having
done so, you can't escape the question "what have you done to
earn that level of respect".
If outsiders come in and find that the response of your
community to a scandal is to try to hush it up, the answer to
that question is going to be "nothing at all". Oh, and please
don't even try to imagine for a second that any attempt at
a cover-up via some kind of conspiracy of silence is going
to work here, especially in regard to Mr.Hubbard. Not only
is that cat out of the bag, but he's run across the state line.
Back when I ran into the people from the House of Netjer, I
made a vague allusion to a local elder who'd been caught with
his hand in the till, using charitable contributions intended
for "missionary work" in South Africa as a downpayment on a
travel lodge. "Oh, you mean Ed Hubbard" were the first words
out of their mouths. The story had travelled from one end to
the other, at the Parliament of the World's Religions. Which
means that Ed's bad reputation has now gone global.
And you guys are going to keep the bad word about Ed's business
dealings from spreading for the greater good of the community?
Mazel Tov. Keep it up, and just imagine the field day the
fundies will have when they hear about this. It will be the end
of any credibility Neo-Paganism might have ever had in that
town, and it will be your own personal fault.
Antistoicus
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 1:28 pm
Subject: Re: The situation on WildOnionNetwork continues
ADVERTISEMENT
And here's the latest.
-------------------- start of my post -------------------------
To: WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com
From: antistoicus <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 1:18 pm
Subject: [WO] Netiquette [Was: Re: censoring the list, etc. and a
request]
--- In WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com, "Adams, Kathy"
<KAdams@i...> wrote:
> I promise I won't make you quote anything. Even outside
> of paganism, there seems to be a battle constantly brewing
> and, more often than not, boiling over.
Yes, Ms.Adams, that there is. The question is, are there good
reasons for believing that the proposed remedy will do
anything to help alleviate the problem mentioned? What your
argument is, in effect, implying, is that if one does not
agree with your solution of choice, then one does not care
about the problem - which is, in and of itself, a barely
veiled form of character assassination. One beloved of corrupt
politicians on both sides of the political fence, and a cliche
going back to the early days of the snake oil salesmen.
> As I stated in my original post, I did say guideline.
> Guideline to me does not mean to blindly follow like
> sheep.
The history of this discussion does not bear that claim out.
The reader will kindly note that, having been presented with
reasons why I made the post I did, Ms.Adams et al. felt that
citing an url was sufficient counterargument. The man who
first brought it up even stated that those who wished to
use the Internet effectively would follow its dictates, which
really doesn't sound like an invitation to openly discuss the
merits of what is proposed on these pages. Especially since
the only 'arguments' your side has offered in support of
those alleged rules has been an assertion of the stature
of their authors by Mr.Epstein and an emotional appeal
to the group on your part.
But, let's discuss those merits, anyway. Your concern, cited
in an earlier post, is that there is a large amount of
backbiting in this community. In a post of mine which you've
objected to, apparently on this basis (given the context of
this discussion), I've exposed (and undermined) just such a
piece of backbiting. Namely, Ed's misrepresentation of Jeff's
remarks. Just telling people to go back and check a series of
messages is an approach which has not worked, historically. Not
that we should be surprised. To do so requires effort, and
unfortunately, people are prone to follow the path of least
resistance. Place the relevant materials side by side, however,
and all of a sudden, people start to pay attention.
Considering how long this flamewar has continued, largely
because many on this list have failed to really listen to
what both sides have been saying, and considering just how
much bandwidth has been consumed in the process, for somebody
to complain about the reprinting of a few relatively brief
posts for a side-by-side comparison on the basis that this is
helping to make the digests too long is disingenuous at best.
But, as wild as that was, you've gone it one better. Confronted
with a debunking of an attempt at defamation, you've implictly
called for the embracing ("we should all read this") of a set
of rules which would have lead to the silencing of that
debunking - and done so in the name of doing your part to cut
down on defamation! That is truly remarkable. Would you like
to have my definition of the word "chutzpah"?
Battles brewing, Kathy? Flamewars? I've seen many flamewars
and WitchWars alike in my day, and not one of them ever
escalated because people were too willing to listen or use
their common sense - two things that go out the window when
url cites are used in lieu of counterargument.
> And no, I don't care for gold. Thanks for the offer
> dear. Were you going to sell it as 24k when it was
> in reality 10k?
Ms.Adams, please do not try to posture as if you were a
newbie; you've been on these boards since the glaciers
retreated. You know darn well what a smiley is.
The reference to the fake gold chain sales attempted on the
Chicago river bridges could not have been lost on anybody
familiar with the city, which you are. And the point of
the reference was clear from context - giving trust freely
to total strangers is pure folly. A simple, common sensical
observation which you've attempted to obscure by quotation
out of context. Oh, and I'm not your "dear". My standards
would be higher than that.
> BTW, thanks for truly 'seeing' what I said.
As usual, Kathy, I see far too clearly for the convenience
of some - a fact for which I will never apologize.
Antistoicus
PS. How have those alleged Asatruar neo-nazis been doing
lately? :) It would seem that one of the people on this
list (who's been expressing great concerns about the
WitchWars) played a major role in creating a rift between
the Asatruar and the general Pagan community in Chicago
by spreading rumors regarding racism, claiming to have
witnessed racist behavior out of them, first hand.
News to this former Jew who, having once run one of
the local networking sites, has had occasion to deal with
the 'evil' Asatruar and has yet to have a cross burned
on his lawn by one of them. :) What was that some of you
guys were saying earlier, about "building community"?
-------------------- end of post -------------------------
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Tue Jul 1, 2003 12:55 am
Subject: The situation on WildOnionNetwork continues
ADVERTISEMENT
Willful stupidity kicked into high gear today. Recently, I
forwarded a letter to this list in which I responded to some
truly shameless spin doctoring of Ed Hubbard's part in the
most direct of ways. Indeed, as ample experience has taught
me, the only way that will work when somebody online starts
misrepresenting his opponent's previous postings. I placed
what actually was written by Mr.Benner side by side with Ed's
portrayal of it, inviting the list to compare and contrast.
But, you've already seen this.
The response was one that should be expected when dealing
with the fan club of a snake oil salesman like Mr.Hubbard. If
the case being made is a damaging one, try to play lawyer and
keep it from being made with an appeal to Netiquette. Ms.Adams
would take this to new heights as she had the actual chutzpah
to back up this complaint on the basis that the Chicago Pagan
community was notorious for the amount of defamation going on
in it. And so the solution to the problem is to set up rules
which make it harder to expose lies for what they are?
Yes, Adams had the nerve to assert just that position.
Just as when Mr.Benner's words were being lied about, Ed's
crew was playing that game they love so well - bait and switch.
Here's my rebuttal to Kathy's comments, as nice as the
ludicrious circumstances will allow.
------------------------ start of post --------------------------
"Adams, Kathy" <KAdams@i...> wrote :
> I was hoping for a guideline of some sort, official or
> otherwise, as things do get out of hand quite frequently
> it seems. No matter how one defines it, Chicago has a
> rather nasty reputation for witch wars, flame wars, character
> assasinations, etc., etc., etc....
If by "Chicago", you mean the "Reader Circuit" Pagan community
(the one that can be found via the Pagan Expo), then yes, it
does and deservedly so.
> Thanks Dan. All of us should read it. Even if individuals
> really are not into afore mentioned activities. Thanks again
Yes, by all means let's stop thinking for ourselves, because
blindly following the decrees of a group of strangers who've
done nothing to earn our trust is the way to good judgement.
While you're here, may I sell you a gold chain, young lady? :)
Ms.Adams, you aren't really going to make me quote Santayana
to you, are you? "Those who do not remember history are doomed
to repeat it"? "Netiquette", as a concept, was created by a
group of people who harassed the original users of Usenet into
departing that once useful forum, promptly going on to use it
as a cheap tool for spreading rumors in such a way as to make
litigation difficult. To try to control flaming and character
assassination by treating one of their pages as if it were some
kind of scripture would be something akin to letting embezzlers
write the banking laws or having the foxes design the henhouses.
In real life, what happened when this crowd started making the
rules on Usenet, was that the level of flammage >went up< and
outright libel ended up being regarded as being so much good,
clean fun. This much should have been no surprise. No set of
rules can force people to be honorable, but when such a set
is allowed to trump common sense, it can become a handy tool
for silencing those who would point out where and how honor
had been tossed to one side.
Antistoicus
PS. To those new to this community, I should point out that
Ms.Adams is a former associate of Vicky Carlson of the Temple
of Sancta Sophia, who, before her recent passing, was one of
Ed's closest allies. Something to keep in mind as one evaluates
her gut reactions. Her motives may be less than pure.
------------------------ end of post ----------------------------
Truly, what a sleaze, but then Ed's friends tend to be. One
other thing that should be pointed out, when some argue that
fairness should give way to the desire to build community -
retention isn't always the way to go.
Ms.Adams, reportedly, has engaged in a few backbiting antics
of her own, not the least of which was telling people that
the local Asatruar were a pack of Neo-Nazis. Before my
departure from the community a few years ago, I couldn't help
but notice how scarce the Asatruar had become in general Pagan
gatherings. Some will insist that we refrain from criticizing
Ms.Adam's actions, which allegedly have played a major role
in driving off an entire tradition ... in the name of building
community? Hard to believe, but it is so.
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:24 pm
Subject: Memories ... :) (Was : Jeff vs. the Volcano)
ADVERTISEMENT
... in the corners of my mind, misty colored memories
of the way we were ...
... screwed. And I mean, really badly screwed over, to
such an extent that I wouldn't dream of bringing a new
group to any future coffeehouses or Pagan Expos. The
"Reader Circuit" as Mr.Hubbard's community has come
to be called by some outside of it, now comes with a
Traveller's advisory.
If somebody, at one of the symposia last year, had told
me that the memory of that experience would make me
laugh today, I probably would have shaken my head and
said something like "no more Pernod for that man". But,
pass me the ice, I guess, because that's exactly what's
been happening over on WildOnionNetwork, lately!
-------------------- start of post ------------------
--- In WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com, Jeffrey Benner
<jeffrey@e...> wrote:
> --- Spiral Paths Community <SpiralPaths@n...>
> wrote:
> > list. While I still have personal questions
> > regarding the historical claims of the Correlian
> > Nativists and their online training and initiations,
> > I don't personally feel a local list is the place to
> > air them, especially when the chief questioner retains
> > moderation control over the opposition responses --
But, of course, were Mr.Benner to take this over to a
nonlocal list, it would be blocked on the basis that the
alleged misdeeds of a local group is a local issue,
unsuitable for discussion on a national or global group.
So, really, this is just more procedural game playing.
To put it in Parliamentary terms, a dilatory motion, one
made in order to obstruct the open flow of discussion.
On a lighter note, oh, how quickly we forget ... :)
> Actually this has been an almost totally unmoderated
> discussion. All of Ed's and Janet Schmidt's comments
> have gone through,
A consideration, which I may add, Ms.Schmidt herself has
not felt the need to extend to Ed's critics (or her own)
in the past, having at least once gone so far as to censor
articles which she herself had not bothered to so much as
read, on the basis that the author (me) was being flamed!
Note that the article, which was blocked from being posted
to Il-Pagans, is a rebuttal to certain philosophical
critiques Ed had offered regarding a networking group I
was setting up. This was declared to be "trolling" by
Ms.Schmidt, whose spin on the material she excerpted below
(in her reply) was creative, to put it gently.
http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/Brotherhood/jannell.html
Context :
http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/Brotherhood/atheleas.htmlhttp://chipagan.freewebsites.com/Brotherhood/council-sophia.html
So much for free and open discussion.
Not to dredge up old flamewars, folks, but history does matter.
The question is, should Ed and his faction get to enjoy the
benefits of a double standard? In the articles being linked to,
you see an account of a dispute in which I wasn't even one of
Ed's critics - I (and my people) were the ones being attacked!
When I attempted to tell our side of the story on Il-Pagans, I
found my posts being blocked. When I got around the censorship
Ms.Schmidt and her partners were imposing by taking it over to
ChicagoLandWitch, the community response was to scream about the
fact that the moderator >wasn't< censoring my posts.
I could not help but be flabbergasted at the suggestion that a
calm and collected rebuttal to a personal attack was, itself, a
personal attack. But, none other than Elf was kind enough to
send me a letter explaining the situation.
http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/Alfar/elf.html
Part of it, according to Elf, was that Ed had a very special
relationship with one of the moderators on Il-Pagans. A fact
that he was apparently not above capitalizing on, in order
to see to it that his side of the argument was the only one
heard on that occasion.
So, I hope that you folks will pardon me if I wonder where it
is that all of these civil libertarians suddenly came from, and
where they were from 1996-2000. :) Especially considering the
fact that one of the alleged civil libertarians (Ms.Schmidt)
responded to a brief post in which I protested her
unreasonable blocking of a post - by blocking the complaint!
I remain banned from her list to this day.
"Do as we say, and not as we do, but only more so"? :)
One should have no trouble responding to a demand like that
with a firm and resounding "NO!".
Antistoicus
------------------- end of post --------------------
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: "Chicago ain't ready for reform" : Jeff vs. The Volcano
ADVERTISEMENT
My response to BlackCrane's letter was not a gentle one,
nor do I wish that it had been. Manipulation is not
an acceptable form of communication.
------- start of my response to blackcrane ---------
--- blackcrane <blackcrane59@y...> wrote:
> HI
> I am sending this to you directly as I am not
> sure it will post. I think Jef is stirring up
> trouble, being rude and making demands that are
> none of his buisness. If I run a buisness whether
> it be a school or shop etc. I don't owe an
> explanation to anyone except me and
> unfortunately the government as to my income etc.
Wow. That's really dumb. I can't even believe
you just wrote that. Are you seriously trying to
tell me that if a business owner does something
unethical, that other people don't have the right
to ask questions? That's a great value system for
those who wish to take advantage of others, but
it's a pretty bad deal for the rest of humanity.
I think I just got a very clear idea of where
you're coming from, blackcrane, and it's not a
place where I'd care to join you.
> This is what I posted to you I am not
> sure it will go thru. Jef is way out of line
> and he is not letting people defend or attack
> him in the same way he is attacking Ed. Not
> playing fair at all.
Yeah. This is one of the things I really can't
respect about your side in this dispute - this
willingness to make up the rules as you go along.
When referring to Ed's shady business dealings,
you take a position of hardline anarchism - we
may not even ask questions. You go so far as to
imply that you're sorry that there are laws
against fraud. Yet, now that you want something
from Jeff, you suddenly become a Communitarian
and think that Jeff should be accountable to you
for how he uses the list, HIS private property.
I see nothing in your position but a crude attempt
at manipulation.
> The problem is a list owner should not use
> their list to trash other people or traditions
It's a shame that the moderators blocked my
response to you, because I addressed that specific
piece of spin doctoring. Jeff did no such thing,
and you know it. The ethical concerns raised had
no specific religious content.
> and not allow that person to defend themselves.
Get real. Ed ranted on at length, and his letters
are still to be seen in the archives.
> This egroup I thought was to promote community
> and discussion, not a personal soap box for Jef
> to attack people and censor responces.
You mean, like Ed had Lisa do over on Il-Pagans
back when they were allegedly sleeping together,
to the people HE attacked, without objection from
more than a tiny handful of people on that list,
including most of those complaining now? What is
this supposed to be - do as we say, and not as we
do? Even if your side had the rights it thinks it
has, it would have long since voided them by
nonperformance of its terms under the social contract.
So get real and get lost. I don't want to hear
from you again.
Antistoicus
PS. You misspelled "responses".
---------------- end of response --------------------
Pick and mix, indeed. How fascinating that Blackcrane
can, on one had, assert that if Ed treats one of his
students unfairly, that this is Ed's business, and yet
expect me to give him a sympathetic ear when he complains
that the moderators have treated HIM/HER unfairly. (Which,
by the way, they had not).
And to think, some Pagans wonder why so many non-Pagans
distrust them. We are judged by the company we choose to
keep, and rightly so.
Antistoicus
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:35 pm
Subject: "Chicago ain't ready for reform" : Jeff vs. The Volcano
ADVERTISEMENT
Jeff Benner made some pretty good points. But, as is so
often the case online, especially in Pagan settings, the
facts were regarded by many as being beside the point.
As I waited to see if my letters to the WildOnionNetwork
would show up, I received the letter quoted below. It was
a masterpiece of shamelessness, as one can easily see just
by looking at the material quoted in my previous two letters.
Spin doctoring is laid upon spin-doctoring in one of the
crudest attempts at manipulation I've ever seen.
Taken in context, what BlackCrane is saying is that if one
raises ethical concerns about shady business practices, then
the shady businessman has had his rights violated. Sigh.
Maybe in a grifter's dreamworld, BlackCrane, but nowhere else.
------------- start of letter ----------------
I am sending this to you directly as I am not sure it will
post. I think Jef is stirring up trouble, being rude and
making demands that are none of his buisness. If I run a
buisness whether it be a school or shop etc. I don't owe
an explanation to anyone except me and unfortunately the
government as to my income etc. This is what I posted to
you I am not sure it will go thru. Jef is way out of line
and he is not letting people defend or attack him in the
same way he is attacking Ed. Not playing fair at all.
The problem is a list owner should not use their list to
trash other people or traditions and not allow that person
to defend themselves. This egroup I thought was to promote
community and discussion, not a personal soap box for Jef
to attack people and censor responces.
Blessed Be
Blackcrane
-------------------- end of letter ---------------------
Thought for the day : If a religious community wants to
enjoy the credibility that comes with living by high ethical
standards, it has to be prepared to actually live by them,
even when it would be easier not to.
Antistoicus
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:12 pm
Subject: Re: Jeff vs. The Volcano : Mudslinging directed against
WildOnion
ADVERTISEMENT
After submitting that post, I responded to a post by somebody
on Ed's side of the fence in a thread entitled "I don't see
what the problem is, was : Censorship", written in
WildOnionNetwork@yahoogroups.com, by pandoraalora
---------------- start of my post -----------------------
> As for this list, when I joined it was advertised as
> unmoderated, now it appears that it is moderated.
Small point of correction : This list was never advertised
as being unmoderated. The column you see on the right hand
side of the list homepage is automatically set by the system
in response to the list default settings. The only part of that
page which can be customized and where one can properly speak
of "advertising" occuring is in the middle column, where
moderators have been mentioned since day one.
I'm sorry if you missed that one skimming, but the moderators
on this list have been forthcoming about that, and I speak as
the very person some of the comments on that homepage were
directed against. My biases would tend to run the other way.
> If we were to vote on the change as this is a new policy
> as far as I can see on the homepage of this group, I would
> have no problem. But doing this without the ability to have
> a voice in the change is dictatorial. Plain and simple.
No, I think you have democracy confused with socialism. This
list is private property, and the results of putting policy
regarding freedom of expression up to a majority vote are
both notorious and a matter of recent history (the 1990s). To
be sure, in a 'place' like the Internet where there is only
private space, the owners of the private space can get a
stranglehold over the process of public discussion and, for that
reason, one may properly speak of responsible and irresponsible
uses of the power ownership confers.
However, leaving the decision up to what history teaches us
will degenerate into a mob in time, is not going to promote
responsible decision making. "I will listen to what you say,
but the final decision is mine and I'll just have to do my
best" is the only sensible course for a moderator to take.
> Does the community belong to the whole of us or to one or
> two of us?
Which community? WildOnion is hardly the only list in our area
or even the biggest one. Ed could hardly claim that he's been
hindered from speaking freely on Il-Pagans, a list several
times larger than this one.
> I don't give a hoot what the topic is, free speech is a
> gauranteed right in the US.
Well, then, congratulations are in order for Mr.Benner, who
I didn't know had become an elected official. :) What you
are referring to is the first amendment, which applies to
the actions of the government. There is no legally guaranteed
right to be allowed to stay in somebody's living room as you
pour out abuse on him, either literally or figuratively.
> If this list is now a monitored list I think that the
> monitors should change the information on the homepage
> so as not to mislead any other folk who are interested
> in joining an unmoderated list.
You mean, go to a default setting of "moderated"? Let me
explain to you why they might not do that.
If you go into list settings and set the list to "moderated",
that means that every post made by somebody whose individual
membership is set on "use default settings" will have to be
individually approved, >indefinitely<. That's going to eat up
a lot of the moderators' time and probably inconvenience the
list members unnecessarily.
The Yahoogroups system allows a less drastic solution, as
anybody who has moderated a list on it knows. If one is
concerned that an individual (or individuals) will misuse
the list, one can set their individual membership to "this
member's posts are moderated". In a case where a flamefest
is brewing and rational discussion has broken down, one
might even do so in a sweeping fashion, and then restore
the settings to normal when people have had a chance to cool
down. As for false advertising, again, please look at that
list page. Moderators are listed and so are rules as to how
one may post here. I'm sorry of you thought that this was a
radical free speech list, but no such claim was ever made
by the moderators themselves.
> Whatever, the list is now moderated. If I want I know I can
> leave, I don't need someone to tell me to. (Really, no meaness
> meant here I just wanted you to know that I know
> that's an option).
No meanness was perceived, at least not by me, but you're
helping to illustrate a point that I was trying to make in
the post I just submitted ("spin vs. historical reality").
People have become so busy shouting at each other than they've
stopped listening. My point was not to say "WildOnion, love it
or leave it", but to point out that there is a well-established
and well-known freelist for the Chicago Pagan community. I hear
some complaining about censorship here, but I really don't see
a tidal wave of people headed over there.
Almost like they want free speech for themselves, but they don't
like the idea that it would be there for everybody else as well.
-------------------- end of post -------------------------
Gee, I wonder if they'll show up here, now. :)
Antistoicus
Here is what I originally wrote over on Il-PagansCenter.
How soon I would learn the error of my ways!
----------------------------------------------------
From: "antistoicus" <antistoicus@y...>
Date: Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:54 am
Subject: Jeff vs. The Volcano : Mudslinging directed against
WildOnion
ADVERTISEMENT
Shutting down a little spin-doctoring before it ever has a
chance to get started ... You may be hearing from a group
of people who will argue with great heat and passion that
they've been "censored" on Jeff Benner's group. I found this
hysterically amusing because a number of them have long been
among the staunchest advocates of censorship on Il-Pagans,
referring to dissent with the party line as being "chaos" and
"divisive". How amazing, then, to see the likes of Ed Hubbard
taking a new found interest in freedom of expression. :)
But, as we shall see, as usual his faction is shedding far
more heat than light on the situation. Read this post of mine
from WildOnion, and take it as a "heads up".
--------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to have to beg the moderator's indulgence here. I
know that Ms.Coughlin has tried to move the discussion past
the point of endless repetition, which is the only thing a
moderator can do when a heated discussion bogs down. However,
when people get carried away in the passion of the moment,
sometimes they stop remembering what really was said and spin
takes over. At a moment like that, putting a few past items
together in one place, so that people will remember them all at
once, can sometimes help people gain a little perspective.
To put it another way, it ends the "he said, she said" stuff
in a real hurry.
blackcrane <blackcrane59@y...> wrote:
> The problem is a list owner should not use their list
> to trash other people or traditions and not allow that
> person to defend themselves.
But did Mr. Benner really do that? Here are the earliest
remarks I've found by him on this subject, and I could
practically picture him at him terminal going "All right
Ed! Woo hoo!" This is an attack? ...
------------- start of post ------------------
Message 5082 of 5299 (Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:18 am)
Subject: witchschool.com acquires $40,000 campus
This is one of the most remarkable local stories for
neo-pagans I have seen recently, yet nobody seems to
be talking about it.
The online Wicca correspondence school witchschool.com,
run by Chicago locals Don Lewis and Ed Hubbard, has acquired
a $40,000 building in Hoopeston Illinois (the former town
hall of Hoopeston). [A full story which ran in the June
19th Champaign Illinois _News-Gazette_ is quoted at the
bottom of this post.] They will acquire final ownership of
the building on July 7th.
Hoopeston Illinois is the home of Correllian tradition
Ascension Temple. Don Lewis is Chancellor of the Correllian
Nativist Church, and Ed Hubbard is its First Director.
One of the most remarkable things about the press release
quoted in the _News-Gazette_ article is the number of
students studying with witchschool.com, which teaches Don
Lewis' Correllian Tradition Wicca. The article claims that
witchschool.com has 60,000 students internationally, which
would have to rank it possibly as one of the largest Wiccan
organizations of any kind in the world. Certainly it would
seem to be the largest Wiccan organization in Illinois
(though most of their students would not seem to be local).
Furthermore the $40,000 purchase is the largest Wiccan
property acquisition I am aware of in the history of the
Illinois neo-pagan community.
Kudos to Ed Hubbard and Don Lewis for their innovative
use of the Internet.
-------------- end of post ---------------------
I wouldn't mind being subjected to an attack like that. :)
Now, looking a short distance down the list of messages, I
come across this post, also by Mr.Benner :
-------------- start of post -------------------
Message 5155 of 5299 Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:31 am
Rev. Eric Roberts <woad@w...> wrote:
> I don't know if the numbers are accurate or not, but
> I do see a lot of questions posted on national and
> international lists I am on about Witchschool, so with
> a national and international audience to draw from,
> 60,000 would not be a hard number to reach
I don't question that they have 60,000 of something.
The number is not in question. The point is that if
these students are all active, then there are 600
students per part-time mentor. If you consider that a
valid way to teach Wicca, then fine for you. That is
not what most of the rest of us do, and I don't think
witchschool.com is pursuing truth in advertising to
their students how little personal attention they will
get, and how different what they do is compared to
other Wiccan/Witchcraft traditions.
Ed and Don make no bones about their contention then
that these 60,000 computer accounts are all students
of the Correllian Tradition, and that they are
therefore the largest Wiccan tradition, yet there is
and can be little or no personal teaching involved in
this.
You don't see anything unethical about this? About the
fact that when you go through the registration page,
you will be claimed as a student of the Correllian
Tradition, even if you lose interest and stop
studying? Do they tell people this up front?
I also strongly suspect that the 60,000 result from
the fact that you have to become a student just to
investigate their course offerings in detail, and it
appears very likely they are claiming everyone who has
ever signed up as an active student, whether they are
actively studying or not.
Maybe you just don't know Ed very well, but in my
experience he loves numbers, and whether any of these
thousands of students are getting any real training
I believe is secondary to him.
Jef
-------------- end of post ------------------
Is this a personal attack against Ed? Only if you think that
investigative reporting is defamatory by definition. Jef
doesn't just throw random accusations. The man makes his case
that something questionable is going on here. Let's see how
Ed responds to this :
--------------- start of message -----------------
Message 5256 of 5299 Thu Jun 26, 2003 8:33 pm
Subject: Hi everyone, Jeff did lie
Hi everyone,
I won't to point out something that jeff violated when he
formed Wild Onion, and one part that was paramount to
assuring the witch Wars of Chicago were at least solved.
Jeff said, "This list is a meant for intelligent, reasoned
discussion of the local community and topics related to
community. It is not meant for discussions and criticisms
of other traditions, dogma, who is Wiccan, not Wiccan, pagan,
not pagan, or any judgment of others and their beliefs."
So let me point out, that this has been violated.
Who knows maybe you will even see this.
-------------- end of post -----------------
This was actually one of Ed's more polite responses. Note that
Ed responds to specific points with a vague accusation (directed
against the man raising these points) of being a bad person who
didn't live up to his word, and a wholly misleading one that his
beliefs had been attacked. If Mr.Benner has done so, he has not
done so in any posts which I have read to date.
Note that in message 5155 (the second letter I quoted), there
is not a single reference to any specific point of theology.
You could read it from start to end, and know nothing more
about what the word "Wicca" meant to anybody than you did when
you started it. The issues raised in Mr. Benner's post are broad
ones of ethics that could just as easily arise in a wholly
non-religious context. Given this, the notion that this is some
sort of persecution does not stand up under examination.
> This egroup I thought was to promote community and
> discussion, not a personal soap box for Jef to attack
> people and censor responces.
The question is, which responses are being "censored". Had Ed
responded point by point and been stopped, that would have been
censorship and I would have agreed, that would have been wrong.
But Blackcrane, giving somebody a fair hearing does not mean
that one has to allow the courtroom to become a circus. Go
into a trial and respond to the prosecutor's questions with
ranting about what an a**hole he is for asking them, and see
how long it takes the judge to hold you for contempt. The same
principle applies here. One does not have the right to use
personal attacks in order to shut down a valid line of inquiry,
either by browbeating the questioner into silence or by
whipping the jury (or the crowd) into such a frenzy that they
stop listening. That practice is, in and of itself, a form
of censorship, and there's no reason for a moderator to stand
for it, even for a second.
Your moderators have been very, very nice people in this
exchange, and have done nothing more than continue a long
history of dedicated and conscientious service to their
community. My advice to you is "appreciate them".
Antistoicus
(Forwarded on Monday, April 16, 2001 at 9:01 pm, then reforwarded today for=
a variety of reasons).
Doxxx (dox3net@t...) sobbed :
> demipagan@m... wrote :
>> Thought for the day - what's so darn wonderful, about control ?
>> "Jeffrey Benner" <highpriest@v...> wrote:
>> : This group appears to have no moderation whatsoever.
>> Define moderation, Jeffrey. Had you pulled that stunt, of urging
>> people to abandon the list for one of your own, because people who
<big snip>
> Joe,
> Hope you are happy!
Oh, absolutely delighted. Thank you for asking !
> You haver succeeded in trashing another list.
> You are one of the few people I have ment in Chicagoland who is
> actually capable of destroying everything you touch.
My, how dramatic we're being today, Docus. This morning, the list had
125 people. Now, it has 123. (Grabs a calculator). That comes to a
loss of 1.6 percent of its subscribership. Hardly the apocalypse.
In fact, speaking as somebody who has run a few lists in the past,
I can say with some authority that it isn't even significant. People
join and leave lists all the time, and a two person change in the
number of subscribers to a list this big, is well within the normal
range of variation.
What you and Jeff are clearly trying to do here, is build a panic,
and make people think that there is a flood of people out of this
group, that the numbers say doesn't exist. I believe that this is
known as "hoping perception will become reality".
> You insult people just to draw them in
No, Mr. Bonewits, I stand up for myself, firmly and without apology.
That's what a real man does, when somebody tries to step on him,
or those close to him.
> and then you bitch about how terrible the world is to poor
> little lo' you.
Translation : I had the bad taste to beat your friends in an argument,
and make a solid case that they had behaved in a dishonorable fashion.
And I should be apologizing to you for doing this, because ... ?
Oh yes, because you'll throw a tantrum if I don't. Pardon me if I don't
find this to be very impressive behavior, in a 45 year old man.
> I'm sick of you,
Good ! Our feelings for each other are mutual ! How touching !
> your bitching,
You mean, as opposed to the good spirits you and your friends have
brought to the discussion. Gosh, I'm sorry that I didn't roll over
and beg for forgiveness. Tsk, tsk ! (Pets Doxx on his unwashed head).
Did that do it for you ? Do you feel better, now ?
> and the wasted bandwidth,
Really ? Speaking of over-dramatic : for those readers who haven't
been to Il-Pagans, guess what my lifetime total is, for the number
of articles I've posted there ? Three. Ooh, such bandwidth
consumption ! I'm amazed it didn't crash the system.
Somebody posts an idiotic attack, and I rebut it. That's not
"bandwidth waste", that's balance. Grow up, and deal with it.
God knows, you're old enough to do so.
> to say nothing of my full trash bin.
which, given your visibly anal retentive tendencies, probably still
has the articles that Atheleas posted over a nine month,
rebuttal-free period, with no objection from you and your friends.
Can you say, "hypocrisy" ? I know it's a four syllable word, but
hey, give it a try !
> I suspect that when everybody quits this list you
> will have a list of your own.
You mean, when they join that awesome flood of two people ?
> Perhaps you should become the modkin
> now, so that everyone else knows what to exspect.
Whereas with you, nobody ever knows what to expect. You blow with the
wind, today siding with one person, the next day siding with the other,
visibily guided by nothing more than a desire to agree with as many
of the people in your immediate vicinity as possible.
You've been talking about what you're tired of. Let me tell you what
I'm tired of. Your neediness. Your two-faced cowardice. Your friends.
This is the problem with the Internet, Doxxx. It radically empowers
the socially inept like yourself, who don't know how to handle the
influence they suddenly have. It's like taking somebody who has
never left home, and shoving him behind the wheel of a car.
You want to create an imaginary world in which you get to be cool
and dangerous. What was it you said ? Oh, yes, that you could cast
spells that would cross hundreds of miles, and kill people. And here
I am, nasty little skeptic I am, bringing you back to reality, the
sort of person that when he hears claims like that, will utter the
all-efficacious magic ward. Know what that is ? Picture me pulling
my hands up until they are just below my eyes, wiggling my fingers
in your direction, and uttering the ancient incantation
BOOGAH ! BOOGAH ! BOOGAH !
I have a pretty solid hunch, that no evil spells will be coming my way.
Offended ? Too bad, but that's life.
The problem is one that you said yourself, before you shifted with the
next change in the winds. We have people here who will "get you" if
you don't take them seriously enough. The message of the Sancta Sophia
incident is that the elders don't deserve to be taken seriously, and
have no wisdom to share. That's not a message that they want people to
hear. It is, however, a message that I will be happyn to tell people,
if for no other reason, than because it teaches them one important
lesson. Those who demand deference, seldom deserve it.
Understanding that, is the first step to becoming truly free.
> \\¦//
> (O O)
> ______o00~(_)~00o____________________________
> To have no errors, Would be life without meaning, No struggle, No Joy
But apparently to have no dissent, would be pure bliss, in your mind.
No go, Docus. Get over it. Dissent is here to stay.
Antistoicus
--- End forwarded message ---
In case you don't want to render the preceding code ...
Previous Next Previous Next New Reply Forward Delete Inbox Home
From: DWEDDLE@N... Number: 425456
To: DEMIPAGAN Date: 3/19/01 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: Not a JOKE Reference: None
Read: 3/19/01 12:12 PM Private: Yes
Conference: Private E-Mail Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 8.44K
AddressBook: Add Sender Add Recipient View Mode: Standard Text Web
Headers
Yes I am 'Elf'. My friends have called me that for many many years now.
I was orignally elf@i... elf@i...>
and elf@i... elf@i...> . My wife,
Brigantia, and I worked on things as far as the list is concerned as a
team. She registered the internic name in her name when we got the idea
because she was at the computer already.
As for the story, aside from a few extra details, its pretty complete
and to the point. The extra details aren't worth mentioning at this
point. I was told by a few that there were people on my side of this,
whatever that means. I do know some went out and researched public
documents and talked to the police who came to my condo as well.
Can't say from the writing style that I can ID your person but they do
know a great considerable amount of information it seems. Its good the
author asked for concealment and that you abided by it, shows some level
of trust in my opinion, but hey what do I know :)
As for the lists I stay out of them except for one I started on
Interfaith called Magickal-Intentioneering. Since I am not Wiccan I
don't do purely Pagan stuff. I deal with philosophies as well as a great
deal of many other things. My new website is not up yet and the list is
small. At one point I had started it before the big fiasco and Ed was
actually on it.
He had stated to me about how many pagans are in this area, about how to
bilk them for money, and how to send it to Africa to pay for a resort he
agreed in good faith to be part owner on. He also wanted to be "THE"
persona of Pagans in the Illinois/Chicago area.
As for his morals? Well, no man who walks in between anothers
relationship with his spouse will ever gain respect from me. He had no
right to walk in on me like that. He did so because after meeting us he
wanted what I had, I had a good wife, and a life. So he decided to step
in, he is Wiccan however, Corellian(sp?) and they do have the "An it
harm none..." rule. So much for that eh?
In my opinion he is back stabbing the community for his own purposes and
its ashame that they don't open their eyes before he does it to them
rather than after. But what can one do?
Hope this answers your questions.
-----Original Message-----
From: demipagan@m...
Sent: Mon 3/19/2001 9:31 AM
To: Dane S. Weddle
Cc:
Subject: Not a JOKE
Two questions : 1. Are you "Elf", formerly the webmaster for the
IllinoisPagans sight, and formerly the list owner for Il-Pagans
? 2. Is the
story below, true ? This letter was sent to me, and I am
forwarding it to
you for confirmation. At the request of its author, I am
concealing his
identity.
---------------------------------------
"Now, I and Pat have both received e-mails to the
effect that you did
a squeeze play on Elf, and are now involved in the
Illinoispagans
site. Whether this is actually the truth, or something
you put one of
your friends up to telling us, in the hope that one of
us would snap
at the bait, is a mystery that I have neither the time
nor the
inclination to try to resolve. It is a typical example
of why so
many are cutting out, though. You and your friends
have time for
these games. The rest of us do not."
I can assure you that I am in way associated with Ed
nor has he put anyone up to it. I can bear witness to
what Ed has done to Elf as well as others. I will not
reveal who I am or how I got the information, but in
good faith will provide plenty of it as long as you
keep this identity secret, pagan to pagan.
As it stands Ed went to visit Elf and Brigantia to ask
them to work with an 'elite' group and be his new web
people because frankly his work sucked. They took some
time to think about it. Meanwhile Ed asked Elf if he
could have his wife as a 'slave' to use for sexual
BDSM things outside of the business relationship. Elf
preferred no but was willing to hear his wife out
first. Ed returned to talk again at their place at
which time they asked everyone to grab some liquor
from the store and people were drinking. When
Brigantia began to ignore her husband and ran around
in panties in front of Ed she was asked to remove Ed
from the premise. From there she became upset and Ed
continued to aggrevate it. He assisted her in calling
the police and saying Elf was a threat to people and
they came and put him in hospital. On the police
report, available to the public, Ed and Brigantia were
both asked if Elf was armed by police, both refused to
reply to the cops. The cops then became rough with Elf
not knowing if he was armed which led to him having to
go to surgery a week later. While Elf was in hospital
Ed admitted to a friend of Elf's that he was the
'catalyst' for all of this and that he was interested
in Elf's wife. Ed convinced her to leave Elf at which
time she began a legal fight, removed him from
Illinois Pagans which both had run for its whole
existence of about 3 years. The website was a success
because they worked in the web industry and knew what
to do. Now Ed seems to think its success is his doing
when in fact its success led him to ask for help with
his pathetic site.
As an investigator to find out if this was all try I
myself have gotten all public copies of the police
report, etc involving what Ed has done to Elf. I can
guarantee this not a sick joke, nor something Ed is
even smart enough to do. He's a con artist and he is
going to take the community for what he can.
If you really are concerned about if this is truth you
can contact Elf as his original companies email, he
ran a web hosting service which actually hosted
Illinois Pagans before they decided to not pay for
service, the company is called NeonKnights. The email,
the last one that I used to communicate with him on,
is dweddle@n... , find out for yourself
what is true or isn't true by merely asking Elf
yourself.
(end of message)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To put your mind a little at ease, I hope ...
I am a Pagan. I am not one of the elders, or other members of
Ed's
clique. Somebody sent me this, and suggested that I write to you
to ask if this was true. OK, is it ? Just want to know the
truth.
Previous Next Previous Next New Reply Forward Delete Inbox Home
--- End forwarded message ---
What a curious little letter this was ...
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<tr><th align=right>From: </th><td> DWEDDLE@N...</td><th
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<tr><th align=right>To: </th><td> DEMIPAGAN</td><th
align=right>Date: </th><td> 3/19/01 11:35 AM</td></tr>
<tr><th align=right>Subject: </th><td> RE: Not a JOKE</td><th
align=right>Reference: </th><td> None</td></tr>
<tr><th align=right>Read: </th><td> 3/19/01 12:12 PM</td><th
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Yes I am 'Elf'. My friends have called me that for many many years now.
I was orignally <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>
<mailto:<A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>>
and <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A> <mailto:<A
HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=elf@i...">elf@i...</A>> . My wife,
Brigantia, and I worked on things as far as the list is concerned as a
team. She registered the internic name in her name when we got the idea
because she was at the computer already.
As for the story, aside from a few extra details, its pretty complete
and to the point. The extra details aren't worth mentioning at this
point. I was told by a few that there were people on my side of this,
whatever that means. I do know some went out and researched public
documents and talked to the police who came to my condo as well.
Can't say from the writing style that I can ID your person but they do
know a great considerable amount of information it seems. Its good the
author asked for concealment and that you abided by it, shows some level
of trust in my opinion, but hey what do I know :)
As for the lists I stay out of them except for one I started on
Interfaith called Magickal-Intentioneering. Since I am not Wiccan I
don't do purely Pagan stuff. I deal with philosophies as well as a great
deal of many other things. My new website is not up yet and the list is
small. At one point I had started it before the big fiasco and Ed was
actually on it.
He had stated to me about how many pagans are in this area, about how to
bilk them for money, and how to send it to Africa to pay for a resort he
agreed in good faith to be part owner on. He also wanted to be "THE"
persona of Pagans in the Illinois/Chicago area.
As for his morals? Well, no man who walks in between anothers
relationship with his spouse will ever gain respect from me. He had no
right to walk in on me like that. He did so because after meeting us he
wanted what I had, I had a good wife, and a life. So he decided to step
in, he is Wiccan however, Corellian(sp?) and they do have the "An it
harm none..." rule. So much for that eh?
In my opinion he is back stabbing the community for his own purposes and
its ashame that they don't open their eyes before he does it to them
rather than after. But what can one do?
Hope this answers your questions.
-----Original Message-----
From: <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=demipagan@m...">demipagan@m...</A>
Sent: Mon 3/19/2001 9:31 AM
To: Dane S. Weddle
Cc:
Subject: Not a JOKE
Two questions : 1. Are you "Elf", formerly the webmaster for the
IllinoisPagans sight, and formerly the list owner for Il-Pagans
? 2. Is the
story below, true ? This letter was sent to me, and I am
forwarding it to
you for confirmation. At the request of its author, I am
concealing his
identity.
---------------------------------------
"Now, I and Pat have both received e-mails to the
effect that you did
a squeeze play on Elf, and are now involved in the
Illinoispagans
site. Whether this is actually the truth, or something
you put one of
your friends up to telling us, in the hope that one of
us would snap
at the bait, is a mystery that I have neither the time
nor the
inclination to try to resolve. It is a typical example
of why so
many are cutting out, though. You and your friends
have time for
these games. The rest of us do not."
I can assure you that I am in way associated with Ed
nor has he put anyone up to it. I can bear witness to
what Ed has done to Elf as well as others. I will not
reveal who I am or how I got the information, but in
good faith will provide plenty of it as long as you
keep this identity secret, pagan to pagan.
As it stands Ed went to visit Elf and Brigantia to ask
them to work with an 'elite' group and be his new web
people because frankly his work sucked. They took some
time to think about it. Meanwhile Ed asked Elf if he
could have his wife as a 'slave' to use for sexual
BDSM things outside of the business relationship. Elf
preferred no but was willing to hear his wife out
first. Ed returned to talk again at their place at
which time they asked everyone to grab some liquor
from the store and people were drinking. When
Brigantia began to ignore her husband and ran around
in panties in front of Ed she was asked to remove Ed
from the premise. From there she became upset and Ed
continued to aggrevate it. He assisted her in calling
the police and saying Elf was a threat to people and
they came and put him in hospital. On the police
report, available to the public, Ed and Brigantia were
both asked if Elf was armed by police, both refused to
reply to the cops. The cops then became rough with Elf
not knowing if he was armed which led to him having to
go to surgery a week later. While Elf was in hospital
Ed admitted to a friend of Elf's that he was the
'catalyst' for all of this and that he was interested
in Elf's wife. Ed convinced her to leave Elf at which
time she began a legal fight, removed him from
Illinois Pagans which both had run for its whole
existence of about 3 years. The website was a success
because they worked in the web industry and knew what
to do. Now Ed seems to think its success is his doing
when in fact its success led him to ask for help with
his pathetic site.
As an investigator to find out if this was all try I
myself have gotten all public copies of the police
report, etc involving what Ed has done to Elf. I can
guarantee this not a sick joke, nor something Ed is
even smart enough to do. He's a con artist and he is
going to take the community for what he can.
If you really are concerned about if this is truth you
can contact Elf as his original companies email, he
ran a web hosting service which actually hosted
Illinois Pagans before they decided to not pay for
service, the company is called NeonKnights. The email,
the last one that I used to communicate with him on,
is <A HREF="/code/html-mailto&name=dweddle@n...">dweddle@n...</A> , find out
for yourself
what is true or isn't true by merely asking Elf
yourself.
(end of message)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To put your mind a little at ease, I hope ...
I am a Pagan. I am not one of the elders, or other members of
Ed's
clique. Somebody sent me this, and suggested that I write to you
to ask if this was true. OK, is it ? Just want to know the
truth.
</pre>
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--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Monday, December 11, 2000 at 8:52 pm, In HP
Chicago_Gripe@egroups.com, Antistoicus (demipagan@...) wrote :
We have already discussed why it is, that I seek to make an island of
these groups. By the way, if the page at GoPlay is down, one can find
s
mirror at
http://demipagan.freeyellow.com/HPChicagoGripe-entry1.html
What I want to avoid seeing, is the continuation of a situation in
which
the insane rule, because there is no place one can go to speak, where
they
have not intimidated people into silence. I would like to see the
establishment of many such islands, so that no one clique can ever
impose
its will on the entirety of local online Pagandom, in this fashion,
ever
again. This raises another key point.
Neither HPChicago, ChPChicago, this group, or the Shrine of the
Sleeping
Gods, will ever be a democracy. One of the hallmarks of the 90s, I
think,
was the attitude that since we live in a "democracy", all institutions
within the society must be run on a democratic basis as well. This
misconception lead to some very anti-democratic results.
As we saw in the Sancta Sophia story, it is very easy to deal with
people
calmly, and reasonably in this subculture (indeed, in this society),
and
quickly find that one is being ganged up on by a pack of lunatics.
This is
not a happy thought. If the moderator/group coordi
nator/professor/whatever
has abdicated his responsibility to stand up for those being abused,
defending his cowardice in the name of "democracy", he will side with
the
gang setting on the lone individual.
In any side of lawless situation, people will seek that support which
legitimate authority has denied them. In these forums, what people
will
tend to do, is band together for protection. "You stick up for me, and
I'll stick up for you". Those who don't do so quickly, tend to be
driven
off quickly, especially if they stand out in some way. This tends to
insure that people will make alliances with people they don't know,
which
obviously tends to rule out principled choices.
In the place of free and open discussion, we have cliques held
together by
anxiety. A clique is a very small society, whose members are in
constant
fear of expulsion. Consequently, they will quickly tend to develop
into
dictatorships, with well-defined pecking orders, as dissent is not
accepted within them. Losing that, all that remains is posturing and
intimidation. If one confronts another, either one is up, one is
down, or
one is out (ie. the clique breaks into pieces, one of which one is
excluded from, and one of those pieces may consist of a single
person).
This is how we got the elders. They weren't people who attracted
followers
because of their wisdom, or innovative ideas, of the nobility of their
character. They're people who accumulated clout, and intimidated
others
into not opposing them. That's why they and their "causes" aren't
welcome
in either of our groups.
Recognize the situation ? Think back to your world history class.
Europe
around the time of the fall of Rome. Feudalism. You know, the system
where
one man gave up his freedom in exchange for the protection of somebody
who was powerful because he had already made a similar bargain with a
large number of other people ? A classical example of how lawlessness
lead
to anything but freedom, right ?
What we're seeing, now, is akin to a satire of feudalism, given a weak
sort of dark humor, only by the current reduction of the stakes
involved.
The stakes, though, are still disturbingly high. The feudal lord
dealt in
life and death. The clique leader, in our politically correct world,
deals
in the freedom to speak, and associate with others. But make no
mistake.
If we, as a society, allow this trend to continue, it ultimately
leads to
the same place.
If we can not speak up against those who trample our rights, then
there is
no way to have those rights addressed, and we cease to possess them.
Give
up real freedom of speech, or of the press, so lightly as we have in
the
last decade, and one is headed down the road to tyranny. At first, as
the
forming cliques are small, it'll be a matter of making our day to day
lives an unpleasant ordeal, under the guidance of the most
self-righteously unprincipled. If this trend continues unopposed,
eventually those cliques will grow large enough, to de-stabilize the
republic. It has happened elsewhere, before.
I should not have had to write this post. These issues, about freedom
of
speech, and why we don't put it to a vote, were all addressed in the
Federalist Papers, written by the founding fathers, centuries before
we
were born. Unfortunately, nobody seems to want to read, any more, even
though everybody wants to be "involved". Oddly enough, this
involvement
never seems to include the concept of civic duty. "Are you saying
that the
republic will fall, if I appease this elder, Antistoicus ?" No, of
course
not. But many small losses of freedom, do add up, and the act helps to
push the balance of our culture, in a very bad direction.
(Let us also note that the microscopically small early Christian
Church, grew into the authoritarian Medieval Church, inquisitions
and all. Maybe we ought to think twice, before helping to build
another authoritarian institution, out of concern for our own
descendants).
In an era in which FBI agents have been seen beating up civilians with
impunity, and courts have ruled that mere innocence is not grounds for
preventing an execution, concern for the freedom to question
authority,
and the willingness of the people to exercise that right, has never
been
more topical. Let's not get people in the habit of being even more
timid
than they've already been, or the future is going to be even more
dystopian than the present.
Let us never forget, that a society is reconstructed from the bottom
on
up, not the other way around. What is happening on the interpersonal
level
today, will be tend to be reflected in the politics of tomorrow.
So, The question is not, "am I going to destroy America", but rather,
"am
I contributing to the status quo in a positive way, or a negative
one".
It's about time that some of us started answering it.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- At 2:24 am, on Thursday, December 28, 200, In HPChicago_Gripe@egroups.com,
Antistoicus (demipagan@...) wrote :
With the departure of Mr. Johnson, I am now rid of all who had
brought grief to the Shrine, during the Sancta Sophia incident. I'd
like to say that this places the incident behind us. I hope it does,
but some people seem reluctant to let go, and go away.
Phyllis Steinhauser (atheleas@a...) tried to sign up recently.
On the bright side, she does seem to be establishing her reputation
as a flake, though some would say, a generally nice one. Perhaps
Raymond can help me see the good in her some time. Right now,
though, I must admit that I am unable to find it, myself.
Ms. Carlson, for medical reasons, probably has only a little time
left to her. She seems content to use it to try to disrupt any
serious discussion in her presence. Given that any community which
accepts this as normative behavior, renders itself incapable of
making plans to deal with real problems, and even more incapable of
dealing with the serious questions people come to religion with, I
can say with confidence that those who continue to accept Vicki will
be far more of a problem to themselves, than to us.
Emme, for all I know, could be Vicki. Given that nobody seems to have
heard of this alleged elder, it's hard not to wonder. One thing is
certain. I haven't heard a word from or about her since.
As for the non-Sancta Sophia people ...
Fred Johnson is now without allies. He has succeeded in antagonizing
both sides in the Sancta Sophia dispute, and Ed Hubbard of Holy
City as well. The moderators of every local Pagan list I know of,
with the possible exception of "Skyclad" think he's an idiot. My
prediction is that having exhausted all of his potential Pagan playing
fields, he's going to slowly drop out of sight. We might see him, in
a few years, terrorizing some protestant denomination once he runs
out of pagans to talk to. But why bother to look ?
Paul Lewis ... was barely even in the picture, and barely seemed to
want to be. Reportedly, he turned over the Skyclad list to somebody
named "Jannell Schmidt" within a few days of its founding. He
barely even hung around the lists. This suggests that he has little
staying power. My guess is that he was just passing through.
So, we may conclude that the above characters, are no longer a subject
that we should spend a lot of time thinking about. This part of the
story is done, or might as well be.
What is a little more troublesome, is the behavior of Ed Hubbard, who
continues to haunt the lists, and spread the bad word. (Likewise
with Traci Logan-Wood). They are far from irrelevant in the local
Wiccan community. Fortunately, we are not Wiccans.
The strategy of the Shrine, and this list, will be to keep its
distance from the Wiccan community. Let us build a good place to be,
here, and let people come of their own accord. Living well will be
all the rebuttal we need, especially given how wired Ed and Traci have
looked of late. Let us simply exercise discretion, when we decide who to
let through our door.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote on Thursday, Dec. 28, 2000 at
1:47 am :
What was especially offensive, was that Fred had pledged to work for
the group. Granted, we didn't give him that much to do. I gave him
very limited moderator duties. He could sign people up, approve
messages that he understood, and sharpen pencils. OK, not so much
sharpen pencils, after a while. But, we don't need to get into that.
The point is, that Fred was in a position of trust. While it was
agreed that Fred was perhaps not the brightest of souls, he had
always seemed to mean well.
Fred was also a member of Skyclad in Chicago.
Until today, I didn't know who had breached our trust, though I
had my suspicions. This afternoon, I think it was, I saw something
unusual in my box. Somebody had gone over to that half-forgotten
group (Trollheim_Central), registered, been approved, and quickly
unsubscribed. Well, that can't be good, I think. Finding this a little
curious, I go over, and look around for anything that seems unusual.
Well, the introductory letter had been turned into a lament. That
would explain the sudden cancellation. Something seemed very familiar
about the style, though. It was then that I noticed Fred and Paul's
links, including the one to Skyclad, and made the connection. I asked
Fred, point blank, if he had passed the names along to Mr. Lewis.
He said "yes". Goodbye, Fred. It's not just that he did wrong again,
but that he did the same wrong. History would counsel skepticism,
were he to apologize again. If he can't apologize, though, there
can be no way for us to work past this. Thus, as with Sancta Sophia,
I was left with no doubts. The decision had made itself.
This left me wondering how to deal with Mr. Lewis. One thing was
certain. He did seem remarkably devoid of a sense of humor. Given
this, he didn't belong on Trollheim. While it might have been the
case that Fred had volunteered his help to somebody who hadn't asked
for it (it wouldn't be the first time), Mr. Lewis had seemed willing
to make use of that information. What is not so clear cut, is whether
or not he had understood the breach of trust in which he had become
a participant.
The uncertainty is the assumption leading to my decision, becomes an
uncertainty about the decision itself. I banned Mr. Lewis from my lists,
for what I perceived to be a cerain amount of skulking around. However, I
do so acknowledging that there is room for reasonable doubt about my call
on this way. In the case of Mr. Johnson, however, there can be no serious
doubt.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote, on Thu Dec, 28 at 1:17 am:
Frederick, as you may have seen in the Sancta Sophia story, created
endless headaches for the Shrine by breaching the confidentiality of
its internal mailing list. Later on, he pleaded for forgiveness, and
agreed to do penance for this violation of our trust. Ok, fine.
Later on, I decided to revive "The International Brotherhood of
Warlocks and Trolls. This was kind of a networking organization, for
post-baby boomer Pagans looking for a few laughs, with nothing
serious being discussed. Fred hears about this, and sends me an
e-mail saying "So I hear you got this warlock thing going again.
Can I be your assistant moderator ? Can I ? Huh ? Can I ? Can I ?".
Well, it wasn't like I had the time to run ANOTHER list, or had any
other candidates for the post of assistant. Sigh. Oh, well, it wasn't
a serious list, anyway, so how much damage could he do, really ? "Yes,
Fred, you can be a moderator. And are you sure you're 25 ?" "Well,
yes, pretty sure. I counted the candles on the cake. That's what they
came out to. Why ?" "Oh, no reason". With that, I proceeded to largely
forget that Trollheim_Central, the home list for the Brotherhood at
egroups even existed. Fortunately, I did have the sense to stay the
list owner, just in case Fred did something stupid.
Of course, he did. One of the people who had signed up for the list,
Mr. Paul Lewis, went out and started promoting a list called
"Skyclad in Chicago", for Pagans interested in Skyclad gatherings.
Fine, no problem. Some of our people at HPChicago started arguing
with Mr. Lewis about this. Not great, but not disastrous. Then Fred
either called, or e-mailed Mr. lewis and told him which of our
people were doing this, again, breaching the confidentiality of a
list he was one. Not fine, very big problem -----> cont
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Sun, Dec, 24 2000 at 1:55 am the whole held its breath, as In
HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@... wrote the immortal words:
testing, 1,2,3,4 ... testing ...
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Tue, Dec. 12, 2000 at 7 : 45 In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
As I've already mentioned, I do want my subscribers to understand the
thinking behind my decisions. One reason, as I have explained, is that
it helps them to know what to expect from me. This, I think, has to be
a much more comfortable feeling, that to be left guessing as to what
the "rules" are.
There is another reason, though, and this tends to throw people. I put
the thought processes that lead to my decisions out there, and make
the effort to do so in detail, so that you may examine them, and
assess the validity of the arguments for yourself. If the reasoning
within my argument seems flawed to you, you are not only allowed to
post a detailed explanation of what you feel the errors are, but you
are urged to do so.
I am not "Elf", and this is not Il-Pagans. The moderator is not
always right, and he knows it. If I look over your reasoned, detailed
rebuttal, and see that indeed, I have made an error, I will revisit
my argument, and reverse my decision if logic seems to dictate that
I do so. Let us understand, though, that ad hominem arguments like "I've
known so-and-so for 20 years", rants, and the like, aren't valid rebuttals.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Tue Dec.12, 2000 at 5:11 am, In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...=
wrote:
Hah haH hah ! Power ! Tremble before me, I, the mighty leader of a nine
person group ! I, and my mighty delete key of destruction !
No, I'm not serious. But, some people would be.
Learning that the moderator of a list has thrown people off of a list in
the past, can sometimes be a source of concern for a new member. Well,
trust me, one is never happy about it, but sometimes it just has to be
done. But I do know that you don't know me, so I've tried to explain the
thinking behind my decisions to do so in the past, so you'll have some
idea of what to expect from me in the future. Also, some of these people
have been rumor mongering, so this is a rebuttal.
Two of the people I've mentioned so far, have been people I've expelled so
far : Vicki Carlson and Emme Wilson of the Temple of Sancta Sophia.
Atheleas (Phyllis Steinhauser) might claim to be a third, but that's not
strictly true. The list had already been closed down, and Phyllis and I
were trading private e-mail. Phyllis, apparently unclear on the demise of
the list, tried to get me to throw another member off because he said that
the elders in the community were "a pain in the ass". It is in the taking
of an oath that one became a member of the Council, and that oath required
one to refrain from trying to prevail in an argument by trying to keep
one's opponent from being heard, so, like Vicki, she voided her own
membership. There was no decision for me to make. The page
http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/atheleas.html
tells and documents the story. As you can see there, she then attempted to
play lawyer on Vicki's behalf, by saying that she was just defending
herself from Fred Johnson's attacks online, when she went to the outside
groups to smear the Council, and continue her griping from the list. As a
matter of confirmable, objective reality, though, Fred had never mentioned
Vicki, ever, on egroups, when Vicki started her campaign. Atheleas had
simply lied outright on behalf of one of her friends.
Again, lying to the moderator in order to win his support - as common
sense should suggest, this is grounds for expulsion. I don't have the time
to check stories that people have made up, on a regular basis. Who does ?
Phyllis has now earned the revocation of a membership she has already
voided. Combine this with the crude attempt at manipulation that
accompanied all of this, and you can't help but see that I didn't tell her
to go away, lightly.
You know, I say this, but some people don't hear it, or maybe, don't think
about it. Even in business, there has to be an expectation of some level
of honesty. Phyllis' behavior would have been intolerable, even in a
corporate setting. Now, our "business" at the Shrine and Council was
religion, that which provides us with guidance in all else that we do. We
HAVE to be on our best behavior, here, because of why it is, that we're
here. So, here it is, and I'll say it openly. Respect for freedom of
expression, here, is not going to be taken to the point at which people
are allowed to do things that are clearly sleazy.
Kids, basically this is a prayer group, in a family of traditions that
played a prominent role in the formation of modern Christianity. This is a
religion that comes with a value system, and morality, in it, is viewed as
being objective. If one violates its moral code, or even worse does so,
and gets smug about it as Phyllis did, then, at a bare minimum, I am duty
bound to take the person aside, and not allow her to return until she is
ready to repent, and do penance. I owe that much to the rest, and to those
we meet in honor of.
Then there was Fred. Nice enough guy, but he created a problem. The Shrine
was basically a college and grad student group. So, two things we were
really short on, were time and money. After Jack Armstrong threw me out of
Alchemy Aÿrts, and threatened to sue me (and the Shrine) because he
thought we were Ed Hubbard's friends, I went into our inhouse list. I told
people that I wasn't saying that they shouldn't shop at Alchemy Arts, just
that they shouldn't mention my name, or the name of the Shrine or Council,
while they were over. I just didn't want to see my people get hassled.
Fred had been creating the illusion that he was a representative of the
Council, which, again, is grounds for expulsion, almost anywhere. He dared
Jack to sue us. You know, I'm really in favor of free expression - up to a
point. But if somebody stands behind me, and yells "Antistoicus said he
wants to kick your teeth in. Bring it on wimp, he's not afraid", well, I
might just have something to say about it. Especially if somebody is
borrowing passages out of my writing, and passing it off as his own while
he does so. Oh, dear God, I don't think I'll ever forget that month, even
if I should live to see graduation.
If Fred, on his own, was just calling people idiots, and I had seen a wave
of mail asking me to "do something about it", I would have just initiated
mail filtering, and posted a message telling people to get a life. But
speaking for us, and dragging the rest of us into a fight that we didn't
necessarily want, was inappropriate.
Again, and this is a point I keep coming to, I did not have a decision to
make. The decision made itself. The stated purpose of the offline
portion of the Council was to promote free and open communication,
something that all on the list were pledged to support. Obviously, if
people are afraid to post on it, because Fred might globally repost it,
and pick fights in their names, this will have a chilling effect on
discussions on the list. If Fred had been a member, again, he would have
voided his own list membership. As it was, he was only a guest.
(Note : Fred did eventually apologize).
So, here's a rule that comes out of this incident. Please don't be a mope.
If you want to get into a fight of your own, that's your privilege, and
best wishes for a speedy recovery. But respect the fact that the rest of
us are entitled to choose our own fights.
Another is, don't speak for us. Yes, you're entitled to your freedom of
expression, but we're equally entitled to ours. If people are free to
stick words into our mouths, we lose control over what it is that people
think we have said, and that makes our freedom of expression much less
meaningful. For this reason, with a clear conscience, we'll step in.
I hope this has answered any concerns you may have had in this area.
Staying on this list, is really, really easy, as long as you remember one
thing. This is not a new age list, where you're encouraged to "do your own
thing, man". Remember what was considered to be "basic common courtesy"
before you found Paganism ? Becoming a polytheist should, if anything,
strengthen your respect for those values, because you now have more people
helping you to be a better person, right ? Twelve more gods, at least.
If you're really unclear, here's a pair of links
http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/introval.htmlhttp://demipagan.freeyellow.com/introval.html
to a discussion of something called "the Uniform Base Code of Morality".
What it is, is the common ground between almost every traditional code of
morality that I know of. I wouldn't ask you to read the whole discussion,
but if in doubt, skimming the pages linked to val95ues.html on either
site, should my position clear. If you are planning an action that would
be prohibited by that very loose code, or runs contrary to its spirit, the
significance of the code, is that it tells you not to do that, here.
Actions of that nature are considered to be undebatably over the line,
here, and will result in rapid expulsion. I hope, though, that this will
build confidence here, not undermine it, as every single act prohibited,
is one that "common decency", as it is generally understood, would not
allow. In other words, you're not on your own, here. Your moderator may
not always be logging in frequently enough to act quickly, but I do care
about each and every one of you, and I will do my best to see to it that
you are treated right, while you're here.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Mon, Dec. 11, 2000 at 9:10 pm, In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
As I mentioned, certain people have tried to argue that all
institutions (private or public) in a democratic society, should
be democratically run.
Let me refer people back to the Federalist papers, which I mentioned
before. A key point raised there, is the danger of the formation of
majority factions. The US, in their argument, is protected from this,
by its sheer size.
The largest Pagan organization that we know of, Nova Roma, counts no
more than 1000 members, in its entire national organization. It's
hard to picture that being large enough, to avoid the faction problem.
Even the smallest banana republic, is much larger.
Some will protest the "arrogance" of a moderator who is unconcerned
with the wishes of the majority. "What makes you think that you have
the right to set your judgement over everybody else's ?" This is
nonsense. Anybody here, is free to create his own forum, if he doesn't
like the way I'm running mine, under the same rules, and people are
free (and encouraged) to vote with their feet if they feel that I am not doing a
good job. My position is not "I rule". My position is that in place of power
politics, we should have the ethic of competition, in which each leader is free
to pursue his own vision, within the constraints of common decency, much as the
individual businessman is free to run his own business as he sees fit. The
businessman, if he serves his customers well, will see a good return in profits.
The leader, or moderator, if he serves his group well, will see the reward of
watching his group grow. If wither the leader, or businessman serves those who
come to him pporly, he will be left standing alone. It's just that simple.
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Mon Dec.11, 2000 at 6:45 pm In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m...
wrote:
Small point ... this is being written purely for the archives, as
nobody has registered for this group, yet. (It's only two days old).
So, I might as well use a link, here. Go to
http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/HPChicagoGripe-entry1.html
This ties into WHY I don't want the subscribers to HPChicago, and
ChPChicago to crosspost articles here, onto the General pagan lists,
or discuss them there, and why I don't want to see events there,
being discussed on our lists here. I would like to keep our groups
isolated from this kind of insanity.
It would be a waste of time, for us to go out, and try to reason with
the insane. To put it another way, let's not try to 'save the world'.
The world is too big for us, and our efforts would be diluted to
the point of meaninglessness. Let us instead make a good corner of it
to dwell in, and be careful about who, or what, we let into it.
Think of it as being the difference between going out into the night to try to
end all crime, and locking your door when you get home. Which approach to
dealing with the nastiness out there, is likelier to produce worthwhile results
?
--- End forwarded message ---
--- On Mon Dec.11, 2000 7:26 am In HPChicago_Gripe@e..., demipagan@m... wrote:
Ah, the joys of working with the community !
While I generally prefer to ignore crazy people, some of them just won't
go away. Here is a summary of what went on with some of them.
Sequence of events
1. I make the mistake of founding the Agora, a local Pagan listings
page, and the Council for Pagan Liberty and Interfaith Cooperation.
see : http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/bard.html
for an explanation of what that was about.
2. Somebody calls Traci Logan-Wood of the Holy City Temple, and tells
her that I've claimed to be a representative of the Holy City
Temple. This is incorrect. I tell Traci that she has been given
bad information, and ask her to check the Temple's listing to see
that this is so. Traci merely gets more belligerent. I hang up.
Traci calls back. I ask her to stop calling.
Traci then goes on to tell everybody who will listen about how
rudely I treated her just for asking me to take out the
"inappropriate information" in the Temple's listing. The objective
fact that it was never there, makes no impression on her.
3. I go to the Pagan Expo, and set up a table to bring people in, both
to the Council, and the Shrine of the Sleeping Gods. I make the
mistake of putting out one list for both groups, with the
instruction that those signing up indicate which group(s) they are
interested in. Naturally, nobody does. All that I can do at this
point is set up a combined list in the hope of sorting things
out there.
4. Vicki Carlson, Emme Wilson and Phyllis Steinhauser (Atheleas) of
the Temple of Sancta Sophia have signed up.
Note : THE oath required of new applicants for the Council, is
to refrain from trying to prevail in a dispute, by persuading
other people to not listen to one's opponent. This oath will
be repeatedly breached.
5. The Round Table, the local Pagan newsletter, has folded. I start
a discussion about setting up a new newsletter, for the general
Pagan community, and starting an independent and uncensored press
for said community, not under the control of the "elders".
6. Emme Wilson nominates herself to be editor, and immediately
complains that she isn't being offered absolute control over the
newsletter. (Instead, a system of checks and balances is in place).
a. Meanwhile, a notice has been sent out, to the effect that
a successor to the Round Table is being planned. That is to
say, a newsletter that will fill the nice left empty by
the demise of the Round Table.
I go into Alchemy Arts, where I meet Jack Armstrong, the
owner. Jack goes berserk when he finds out that I mentioned
the Round Table, and threatens to sue me and the Council
for being friends of Ed Hubbard.
Small point : I never was Ed's friend, I simply knew him.
In short order, it becomes clear that Jack is psychotic.
Goodbye, good riddance.
7. The Council is nothing more than a loose association, charging no
dues. Consequently, in order to get funds, the editorial board of
the newsletter would have to go out and raise them. This is
explained on the list.
8. Emme sends a snotty letter, in which she demands to be paid $ 40
per hour for the volunteer position she has nominated for, and
asserts that she will accept no responsibility for raising funds.
She also denies having signed up for the Council, and Shrine (even
though her signature is on the list), and demands to be not be
counted as a member of either.
9. Fine. As requested, I remove her from the membership roster, and
consequently, the in-house mailing list. As the newsletter is a
project of the Council, Emme can no longer be on the editorial
board. Emme decides that she doesn't like that at all, and
requests reinstatement.
10. Having grown tired of her games, I exercise my discretion as
moderator, and decline the request.
11. Vicki, meanwhile, is deciding to maneuver. She takes to asking
impossibly broad questions (what is the Council) that are
addressed on the Agora. This eats up a lot of time and bandwidth.
Worse, she takes to repeatedly asking questions that have already
been answered, in response to her own questions.
This threatens to bring the list to a halt. I suspend Vicki's
membership, with reinstatement contingent on her agreement to
abide by basic netiquette. Like, for example, not asking the
same questions over and over, and looking at the FAQ file, before
asking questions.
12. One of Vicki's favorite questions, is whether participation on the
newsletter will be restricted to members of the Council, or will
be open to all interested Pagans. Compliance with Vicki's wishes
would, of course, open the door to Emme's candidacy for editor.
Given that membership in the Council does not exclude membership
in any other organization, and that it is available to any
interested Pagan who is willing to abide by certain rules of
conduct, I indicate that I don't see what the issue is. I mention
that it strikes me as being a bad idea, for us to hand partial
control of one of our projects to people who haven't even agreed
to let us get to know them first. Also, how many organizations
do we know of, that hand partial control of their projects over
to outsiders. The Round Table, for example, was under the
exclusive control of the Holy City Temple, and nobody objected
to that arrangement.
13. Vicki throws a screaming fit, and sends a letter to the staffs of
the previous newsletters asking them to join her in making a
newsletter of her own. Apparently forgetting that she has been
suspended, she cc's this letter to the inhouse list, being sure
to accompany it with large amounts of abuse directed against the
moderator. (Me).
a. Traci Logan-Wood and Ed Hubbard of the Holy City Temple
were on the list of people the letter was cc-ed to. I
tell our side of the story. Traci becomes the first to
mislabel this "bashing", a line which much of the community
will later parrot.
Some months have passed since Traci's bizarre phone call.
I am over it. Traci, however, isn't, and seizes on this as
an excuse to bring up her old insane cause (the non-existent
comment). I tell Traci to go away, and stay away.
Ed decides to jump in on her behalf, basically arguing that
the facts are irrelevant, only status matters. Ed will
restate this "argument" on his own behalf, in a few months,
with even greater arrogance. At this point, however, I tell
Ed that I don't wish to know him any more.
14. I remove Vicki from the list, with cause. She breached the
aforementioned oath, and, as such, voided her own membership.
See : http://chipagan.freewebsites.com/council-sophia.html
15. Vicki, Emme and their friends then proceeded to raise so much hell,
that most of the membership of the Shrine and Council was driven
off. Did I mention that these two were Wiccan community elders ?
16. In particular, Vicki and Atheleas went onto outside lists, to drum
up hostility toward the Shrine, even before Vicki's final
expulsion. At this point, I am so repulsed by what I've seen, that
I leave the council, and pledge to never work with or on behalf of
"the community" ever again.
17. Members of the Council went onto the lists, to try to tell our side
of the story. They encountered what I encountered via private
e-mail with the Wiccan community : a persistent refusal to listen.
Worse still, was the self-righteous hypocrisy of the attitude that
any attempt to tell our side was "bashing" or "flaming", while
anything Vicki's side said, no matter what it was, was simply
"discussion" or "expressing a concern".
This in particular came up recently. The last two remaining members
of the council went onto the lists to mention that the Agora was
being updated again, and that the Council was looking for somebody
to take it over. Ed proved to be as petty as Traci.
He went on, and lied, outright. He said that every time that
"assistance has been given to the Agora", the help had resulted in
attacks. In fact, assistance had never been given to the Agora,
and attacks had been conducted BY him and his friends, not directed
against them.
I could go on reciting a litany of untruths, but I think you see my
point. This was a man of non-existent ethical character.
18. This raised the question, of who it was that we were ever working
on behalf of. Having failed to find so much as a single outside
community member willing to do anything but engage in blatant
favoritism on Vicki's behalf, the last Council member decided that
the "General Pagan Community" could go straight to Hell.
Lacking a mission, the Council then dissolved. Two people were
offered control of the Agora, and given copies of it for their
own use : Doxxx of Doxxx CyberCircle fame, and Eric Roberts of
Witches of the West.
Either man would be an excellent webmaster for the Agora, and I would be
pleased to see either take over, or make its files part of his site.
However, my heart will not bleed, if the site is deserted altogether.
The Agora, like the Council, was overwhelmingly an effort on behalf of
Wiccans by non-Wiccans, and Wiccan ingratitude has long since reached
epic proportions. The particular part of the Agora that had been split off
was the Wiccan section. The Shrine is not a Wiccan group. So, the only
people that stand to be hurt, are the members of the community doing the
damage. I think that there's a certain poetic justice to that.
Did all of the Wiccan groups endorse what Ed and company were up to ? No.
But not a single one of them condemned Ed's efforts, or spoke up on our
behalf. So, what are we to think ? Ed speaks for them, because they've
elected to let him do so.
As for losing traffic from these groups - look at who I was meeting. Would
you miss these people ? I just wish that I had never wasted time trying to
sow the seeds of community, on such stony ground.
The "no elders, never, no matter what" rule at the Shrine was a direct
result of this incident, and the community response. It was a turning
point. Before that, the Shrine sought to reach out, greet new members
and guests from the other groups, and help to promote cohesion within the
"General Pagan Community". Afterwards, a far different approach was
chosen, as mentioned on the Almond Jar.
See : http://people.goplay.com/truefreedom/phone.html
One lives and learns. I just wish that I had learned a lot more quickly.
--- End forwarded message ---
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