This was the basis for an electric lift setup and a rope version similar to your description. Getting the Visionarry finished became the priority at the time but we may revisit this idea when the need arrises.
Mark
----- Original Message -----From: RobertTo: harryproa@...Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 4:19 PMSubject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
POssibly a set of rollers a bit like an old fashioned ringer or the
set up for squeezing excess resin from the carbon tow. This could be
incorporated near the top of the case with an endless rope such as on
steering gear to control it from a distance.
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@c...>
wrote:
>
> I remain partial to a crank on the case itself. Self-contained,
> avoids lines that foul the rudder or foul the mainsheet.
>
> Yes it does add a slight bit of mechanics "hardware" yet seems
> a good engineered solution to complication of both up or down
> movement. Yes it looks like 1.5 meters of lift to set the rudder
at
> displacement depth for a visionarry. Could snag a lot of lines
> with just the rudders themselves. Granted most shallow running
> would not be raised to that extent.
>
> Other optional ideas such as running a threaded rod though the
> rudder and burying a nut about halfway down inside the rudder
> itself is a possibility. A dozen ways to turn that. My reco
would
> be at full down the threaded rod is flush with the top. Full up
the
> rod is buried inside the rudder.
>
> Regards,
>
> JT
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
> <stephens@o...> wrote:
> > Anything sticking up from the rudders runs the risk of hooking
> the mainsheet. While
> > Rob was
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > *************************
> > Mark Stephens
> > www.harryproa.com
> > stephens@o...
> > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Robert
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:35 PM
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > Point taken-unless the rudder cheeks are made ridiculously
> tall or
> > incorporate a small mast to put nav lights on -The
> reasonable
> > version may be useful for partially lifting board for shallows
or
> > down wind.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> <proa@i...> wrote:
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > True, but would limit the lifting height available unless the
> > string was attached to the board below the water. Draggy and
> not
> > very elegant.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Robert
> > > To: harryproa@...
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks Rob,
> > > Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the
> uphaul, provided
> > it
> > > is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg
> downhaul.
> > > My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of
> the
> > blade
> > > passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of
> the
> > cheek
> > > round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and
tying
> off
> > at a
> > > point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This
> would
> > allow
> > > lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no
> > matter
> > > what angle the blades are facing,
> > > Robert
> > >
> > > -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> <proa@i...>
> > wrote:
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of
> water they
> > > displace. Approx. They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult
lift, but
> > the
> > > potential to be tricky in a seaway.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Robert
> > > > To: harryproa@...
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to
> > their
> > > lowest
> > > > point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the
> blades,
> > > fully
> > > > immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their
fully
> down
> > > > position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull
> them
> > down
> > > to
> > > > counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort
> to
> > lift
> > > them
> > > > out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their
> weight
> > the
> > > > effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting
> effort.
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> <proa@i...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > G'day,
> > > > >
> > > > > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd. Next ones
will
> be
> > even
> > > > lighter. We have a lifting system planned, pics should
> be on
> > the
> > > > next update.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Robert
> > > > > To: harryproa@...
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
> > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From my understanding, part of the reason for the
> rudders
> > > raking
> > > > > forward is to bring them closer to balanced and
> reduce
> > tiller
> > > > loads.
> > > > > It may also help in reducing ventilation.
Unfortunately
> > there
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > seem to be enough room underneath the beams to
> > accommodate
> > > the
> > > > arm
> > > > > needed for the loads. I was playing around with
> drawing a
> > > kick up
> > > > > system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the
> loads
> > and
> > > > have
> > > > > enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the
> > rudders
> > > > > understandable but not immediately.
> > > > > I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin.
There is
> > the
> > > > thought
> > > > > that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its
> maximum
> > depth
> > > and
> > > > so
> > > > > the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it
> floats.
> > I
> > > don't
> > > > > think that the bouyancy is much more than about an
> eighth
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > fully lifted up weight. A small string without
> mechanical
> > > > advantage
> > > > > to pull it down should be enough.
> > > > > A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set
of
> > blocks
> > > > should
> > > > > also work for lifting, though again, there is the
> problem
> > of
> > > > getting
> > > > > it down.
> > > > > My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat
about
> 1/5
> > > from
> > > > the
> > > > > end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat
on
> deck
> > > then
> > > > > through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
> > > engineering
> > > > and a
> > > > > 5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and
you
> > don't
> > > need
> > > > to
> > > > > go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring
> loaded
> > and
> > > able
> > > > to
> > > > > be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
> > > > <jtaylor412@c...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not having the prints it's hard to know what
> can/cannot
> > > work.
> > > > > Don't
> > > > > > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what
> > options
> > > are
> > > > > > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully
> deployed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome
the
> side
> > > load
> > > > > against
> > > > > > the leading edge. Always choices and other
> engineered
> > > > solutions.
> > > > > > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical
> > option
> > > looks
> > > > > better
> > > > > > for certain critical applications you can offer
the
> > > components
> > > > or
> > > > > > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base. You
> > provide
> > > the
> > > > > details
> > > > > > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a
> "drop
> > ship"
> > > order.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You only need to show the kit option in your plan
> set.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method
was
> > neat
> > > as it
> > > > > gave
> > > > > > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.
Probably
> > delrin
> > > > pins
> > > > > for
> > > > > > the tooth set. That would not spoil the foil
flow that
> > > badly
> > > > and
> > > > > > still they don't run to the end of the rudder
foil as
> > we
> > > only
> > > > need
> > > > > to
> > > > > > raise it to bottom of hull level. GO with the
> > horizontal
> > > > capstan
> > > > > > method and elim the gantry. Kinda like pulling a
> > lawnmower
> > > > start
> > > > > > cord. Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself
just
> > add
> > > a
> > > > cam
> > > > > > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the
> rudder
> > up
> > > long
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a
> stop.
> > > Have an
> > > > > > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so
the
> > line
> > > can be
> > > > > > removed when the lift is complete.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be
> > sufficient
> > > > > purchase
> > > > > > power. Could make the capstan bigger than the
> toothed
> > side
> > > for
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more power.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One point of clarification would be helpful. Do
the
> > cases
> > > > angle
> > > > > > toward the crossbeam or away from the
> crossbeam when
> > the
> > > rudder
> > > > is
> > > > > > rotated to a position closest the beam ? Your
> photos
> > in
> > > report
> > > > 7
> > > > > > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam
> when
> > > closest.
> > > > > That
> > > > > > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake
> toward
> > the
> > > > > direction
> > > > > > of motion. Then again could be a bad photo angle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How complete is the visionarry plan set ? Can a
> > planset
> > > > purchase
> > > > > be
> > > > > > amortized against a (major) revision for the final
> > design.
> > > > Would
> > > > > > make things easier to understand. Guess it's not
> in
> > > electronic
> > > > > form
> > > > > > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark
> Stephens"
> > > > > <stephens@o...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of
those
> > ideas
> > > of
> > > > > coarse
> > > > > > and many more,
> > > > > > > even electric. Like your steering lock design
> most
> > > needs
> > > > can be
> > > > > > overcome with
> > > > > > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is
> to
> > keep
> > > it
> > > > simple
> > > > > > and cheap for
> > > > > > > amateur builders to make themselves with the
> minimum
> > use
> > > of
> > > > > metals.
> > > > > > Adding a rack a
> > > > > > > pinion induces side loads which then require a
> way to
> > > reduce
> > > > > > friction which
> > > > > > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not
> have
> > any
> > > more
> > > > > > turbulence at the
> > > > > > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future
> boats
> > but
> > > at
> > > > > > present we have
> > > > > > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built
> so a
> > > simple
> > > > uphaul
> > > > > > or gantry is most
> > > > > > > likely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rudders are located close to the beams when
> rotated
> > that
> > > way.
> > > > In
> > > > > > fact they cant
> > > > > > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract
> back
> > up
> > > over
> > > > the
> > > > > > beam. You can just
> > > > > > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is
> no
> > need
> > > to go
> > > > out
> > > > > > onto the leeward
> > > > > > > hull. This does require each rudder to be
rotated
> > towards
> > > the
> > > > > > beams. The uphaul is
> > > > > > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *************************
> > > > > > > Mark Stephens
> > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > > > > stephens@o...
> > > > > > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: jjtctaylor
> > > > > > > To: harryproa@...
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock
> on the
> > aft
> > > end
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > rudder casing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging
is
> > > located.
> > > > > > Ratchet is
> > > > > > > a proven method and the lever arm can be as
> long as
> > > desired
> > > > for
> > > > > > > efficiency. Cam lock is simple gravity
weighted
> on
> > a
> > > paw
> > > > gear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Simple and easy to design. The lift track can
> > either
> > > be
> > > > rack
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really
want
> > torque
> > > a
> > > > worm
> > > > > > gear.
> > > > > > > Only a modest amount of the track needs to be
> in
> > the
> > > water
> > > > and
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > will be at the aft end of the rudder.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The beauty of the idea lies in operation.
Since a
> > loop
> > > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > handle
> > > > > > > and cam lock would enable the crew to raise
or
> drop
> > the
> > > > rudder
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > water by using the boat hook to snag and pull
> the
> > > ratchet
> > > > handle
> > > > > > > and/or lift the cam lock.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes it would be possible to eliminate the
ratchet
> > > handle
> > > > with a
> > > > > > > spectra line wrapped around a horizontal
> capstan.
> > But
> > > > trying to
> > > > > > > avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment
> > freedom,
> > > but
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > recommend a pin location in the full up or
partial
> > up
> > > > positions
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > relieve the stress on the camlock for any
lengthy
> > > operation
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > than full down. I realize the "denney"
method of
> > > design
> > > > this
> > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > like added complication, but lifting the
rudders
> is
> > an
> > > > essential
> > > > > > > operation. It can either be self contained
on the
> > > rudders
> > > > > > themselves
> > > > > > > like this ratchet or some other improvisation
or it
> > > will be
> > > > > > connected
> > > > > > > via rigging and crane arm. If the rudders
were
> > moved
> > > to
> > > > > beneath
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > cross beam then lifting could be a much
> simpler
> > affair.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Still have to evaluate the stresses on the
> > visionarry
> > > > rudders
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the full sized design after sea trials.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rgds,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JT
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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