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Reply | Forward Message #2892 of 6646 |
RE: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?

Hi Robert
 
If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there, or has there been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob and others have been concerned about the lower brackets being caught by waves, designs have been posted for rudders hung from the akas and there was even a proposal to hang rudders from stub akas. I'm not even talking about hanging a single rudder/daggerboard from a track on the lee hull and hauling it end to end during a shunt.
 
I am aware that there are other things than simple strength or turning moment involved in rudder design but it seems to be received knowledge that rudders are the "Achilles heel" of proas.

Enjoy

Jim Baltaxe

They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.


From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Robert
Sent: Monday, 14 January 2008 4:01 p.m.
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?

-Hi Jim,
I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha' in the
earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on one of the
rudders so it must be good! I cant see any problems with the rudders
as far as slowing the boat down and Rare Bird was a good pilot study
for the robustness. The brackets are strong enough to take the sailing
loads so the bit of slapping won't worry them. There is not much
increase in wetted area if the brackets hit a wave and it would damp
even further the minimal chance of hobby horsing, which could actually
improve performance. (I reckon they also provides a means of getting
on board again from in the water)
Coming over bars is a good test for robustness maneuverability and
handling.
Wish you well in the legal wrangles,and I am sure that Bain would be
happy for Aroha to go to a good home,
Robert--

In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert
>
> I did get out onto him/her on the last day before Bain so kindly took me
> to the airport, but unfortunately it was pelting down like mad. We rowed
> out to the boat, moored in a river near Bain's house and had a good look
> around but never got off the mooring. We had neither the time nor the
> breeze to prove much.
>
> The boat appears to be very well built and very much what I do want.
> Enough room for one or two people for extended coastal cruising and the
> pop-up canopy over the upper cockpit was a cozy place for us to shelter
> in the rain and talk about, as well as look at, the boat.
>
> My only real reservation about the design is the ongoing question of
> rudder attachments. Aroha's appear solid but the lower brackets
> certainly will certainly be caught in almost anything more than a flat
> sea. I really don't know whether that would make much difference to
> overall performance, though.
>
> I did see Aroha come across the bar into the river a couple of days
> earlier and it was an impressive sight.
>
> I am still working on the legal and financial issues so I am hoping that
> I will be able to make a reasonable offer fairly soon. In the meantime,
> I do wish Bain good luck and if I miss out, so be it. If everything
> works well, perhaps I'll be able to get across for another look and a
> ride later this year.
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
>
> They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au]
> On Behalf Of Robert
> Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2008 11:58 p.m.
> To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
>
>
>
> -G'day Jim,
> Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not a nice situation but there can
> be an afterlife
> Did you get a chance to sail on Aroha?
> Robert
>
> -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Jim Baltaxe"
> <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Robert &al
> >
> > I'm in exactly the same position which is why I've had my head down
> for
> > a while, since Derek's workshop and my visit with Bain. I'm still
> trying
> > to work out the "disengagement" (what else do you call a "divorce"
> from
> > a legally recognised, long-term, relationship?) so that perhaps I can
> > get the money together. Sorry Bain but I am trying, really hard.
> >
> >
> > Enjoy
> > Jim Baltaxe
> > 209 Derwent Street
> > Island Bay, Wellington
> > NEW ZEALAND
> > +64 (04) 938 6018
> > 027 563 5018
> > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> ]
> > On Behalf Of Robert
> > Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2007 4:16 p.m.
> > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> >
> >
> >
> > -waiting with bated breath for the next development of the Harry. Love
> > to see the promised photos of Sidecar and Solitarry I am still keen to
> > get a Harry but health and wealth defy me. The concept still makes the
> > most sense to me and the boats out there look pretty good. If I had
> > the cash I'd probably just buy Bain's Aroha and get sailing.
> > Meanwhile I'm investigating doing a KSS system using polyprop and
> > epoxy with an end bulkhead with foam ends.
> > Robert
> >
> > -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "vertiges59" <vertiges59@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Nobody more in this group ?????
> > >
> >
>



Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:54 am

jimbaltaxe
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Message #2892 of 6646 |
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-Hi Jim, I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha' in the earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on one of the rudders so it...
Robert
cateran1949
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Jan 14, 2008
3:00 am

Hi Robert If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there, or has there been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob and others have...
Jim Baltaxe
jimbaltaxe
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Jan 15, 2008
4:55 am

G'day, The side of hull mounted rudders work well, as did the in hull dagger rudders before them and the in hull spade rudders before them. They are far...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Jan 15, 2008
5:39 am

The biggest negative about the hull hung rudders, well the mk 2 version, is they would be difficult to replace once the shear pins broke. At the moment they...
Mark Stephens
markstephens...
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Jan 15, 2008
10:20 am

Hi All, Rob, Mark especially Thanks for the very useful comments about rudders. With all the discussion and personalities it is sometimes difficult to follow a...
Jim Baltaxe
jimbaltaxe
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Jan 16, 2008
1:48 am

Hi All, Rob, Mark especially I just remembered that my first correspondence with Rob had to do with rudder design. His early plans for Harry had two side-hung...
Jim Baltaxe
jimbaltaxe
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Jan 16, 2008
2:36 am

G'day, The side hung rudders (very similar to yours, except the shaft went all the way through the hull) failed because the two way foils stalled at very low...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Jan 16, 2008
5:29 am

Good to see others are thinking about rudder designs. Jim we have four criteria for the rudders/daggerboards. They must turn at least 240 degs, they must pivot...
Mark Stephens
markstephens...
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Jan 16, 2008
6:49 am

Hi Mark &al Thanks for the clarification. If I understand you correctly, the problem with that old design is that they lose the ability to shunt in a shoal ...
Jim Baltaxe
jimbaltaxe
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Jan 16, 2008
10:55 am

Hi Mark &al Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam mounted rudders? Enjoy Jim Baltaxe They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find...
Jim Baltaxe
jimbaltaxe
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Jan 21, 2008
8:56 am

My rudders used to be mounted on the beams. Jim Baltaxe <jim.baltaxe@...> wrote: Hi Mark &al Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Jan 25, 2008
1:10 am

G'day, I have put some photos in the Files section (not sure why I didn't put them in Photos). They are not pretty and it is definitely time to paint all the...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Jan 25, 2008
1:27 am

Hi, Sailing's been pretty good lately, fast and fun, and mostly dry. I get to the limit of my nerves or of the boat fairly easily now - the ww hull has...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Jan 31, 2008
12:44 am

Hi, Sailing getting up in air easily, steering to controllift. Nose not digging too bad, but rudder develops those drag streams - separation off the foil at...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Feb 17, 2008
3:24 am

G'day, Excellent! Any idea how quick it goes with the hull up? How much wind to get it flying? Have you got a plan for it it goes over? The masts will ...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Feb 17, 2008
11:55 am

It was a little gusty - easterly, 10-15 knots? Speed 11-13 knots. Guessing, GPS not on. Shame about the rudders - they get that separation that you can see...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Feb 20, 2008
10:48 pm

Bow burrying is one of my concerns with this design, any one considered if the addition of side lifting strakes would improve this characteristic? drag wise...
numar28
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Feb 24, 2008
12:24 pm

How aboue the bow design as on Cheers: http://membres.lycos.fr/ugmarie/zacheers/cheersjpg/rougevinbaville/cheersparrougevinbaville0005.html No extra drag in...
Gunnar Westholm
gunnar.westholm
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Feb 24, 2008
8:38 pm

I can't see why bow burying should be a problem. The boat with a high prismatic coeffient and long bows has plenty of hydrostatic lift with a long lever arm...
Robert
cateran1949
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Feb 24, 2008
11:46 pm

G'day, I agree with Robert about bows and anti dive plates. My Elementarry rudders don't ventilate at 18 knots, I suspect that Doug's problem is more shaping...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Feb 26, 2008
2:15 pm

Hi, Sailing getting up in air easily, steering to controllift. Nose not digging too bad, but rudder develops those drag streams - separation off the foil at...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Feb 17, 2008
3:24 am

Any update on the 60 ft Maine proa? the blog has not been updated for a while ... From: Robert <cateran1949@...> To: harryproa@... ...
carlos Solanilla
carlosproaca...
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Jan 14, 2008
1:26 pm

Another good reason to shunt MAKING THE CASE FOR BOOM PREVENTERS by CCA Fleet Surgeon The incidence of injury from accidental or premature jibes is unknown but...
David Howie
oceanplodder...
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Jan 15, 2008
10:03 am

Don't Apologise mark, I love what you guys are doing. Any drawings /pictures? I'm curious how you are going to get enough separation top to bottom to support...
David Howie
oceanplodder...
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Jan 16, 2008
3:31 am

G'day, No viewable drawings yet, and the pictures of the setup on my boat don't show much. Seperation is pretty easy as there is plenty of room above and...
Rob Denney
proaharry
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Jan 16, 2008
5:36 am

Hi, Do y'all get out on the water? Small boat - rudders - nuisance: up, down, cumbersome tiller extenisons, blades too deep for shallow water not too mention 4...
Doug Haines
doha720
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Jan 16, 2008
6:09 am
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