I am starting to post pictures on the proafile5 under Paraw options.  I am taking "Tarakura" and making 6 akas, etc to make a paraw

----- Original Message ----
From: George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:17:15 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Really fast and sloppy prototype proa questions

Hello   You can purchase clear yellow pine (6/4 x12" x 12' ) used for stair treds at some lumber yards which can be ripped and used for stringers of laminated for beams or other parts.  Clear fir is also more redily available than trying to get clear white pine 2 x 4's.  Yellow pine or fir is more rot resistant than white pine.  For realy  rot resistant parts I have started using IPE wood decking lumber in place of teak.    George Kuck Chestertown, MD      --- On Tue, 9/30/08, carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@ yahoo.com> wrote: From: carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@ yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Really fast and sloppy prototype proa questions To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 8:51 PM Solo is the way to go - relaxing and you can really concentrate on what you are doing -   I finished cutting all the wood to make the 6 akas needed to make the paraw. I am amazed how expensive wood have become. I had dreams of using some fancy wood but at the end I just could not spend the money for mahogany or cedar blocks that needed ripping - so I went for pine with the least amount of knots I could find. Ended up buying 10 ft sections of really nice 4 x2 took the table saw - cut it to 3 inch width and then came the tough part - I ripped each piece with the kierchieving blade as high as I could to get about 1/4inch sections of 3x1/4x10ft.  I ripped enough of them to make six akas that will be bent in a big old jig Ijust built out of particle board, and pieces of a hurricane damaged patio umbrella poles. I took some pics and will post them later.  I am amazed also how expensive epoxy has risen - the good news is that the local West Marine store was getting rid of all kind of items for $1 a piece - so I bough all kind of stuff for the big boat that would have set me apart $400 or more - spent just $12 plus a quart of epoxy 105, slow hardener, powder, and a lot of fiberglass tape.   Anyways - tomorrow I will try to sneak some time to wet out all the layers and build all six akas at once - then leave them 24 hours so they will not lose the bendy form Got some ideas on how to quick disconnect the akas but that is later - I can only think one step at a time ----- Original Message ---- From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@networknow. org> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:51:00 PM Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Really fast and sloppy prototype proa questions Hi, My boat isn't finished yet. I allocated 3 days last weekend, but only ended up spending 2 days on it. I got the ww hull basically finished (need to paint inside and out with epoxy and fasten on the deck). The lw hull pieces are cut and joined, with stringers, but need to be assembled yet, bulkheads put in and mast frames built. I haven't started on teh beams or rudders yet. My design is simpler than yours. ww hull is 14' long, with 12' beam, slab sided. The lw hull is 20' long, 1' beam, slab sided. Each hull has its sides parallel for 50% of their length. Each hull is 2' high for the middle 8', which is the beam spacing, and then slopes down to 1' high at the bows. I will post pictures to the group once it is a boat. I figure I have 30 hours into it so far. I would have gotten further, but my friend never showed up to help, so I am doing it 100% solo, which slows some things down. I also had to order some more supplies, so I am taking a break till this weekend. Hopefully I can finish it off then. - Gardner York, PA On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Todd <bitme1234@yahoo. com> wrote: I haven't read all your posts on your hull building yet. But seen the 1/8 luan in this post as it caught my attention. I started a 12' ww hull with 1/4 luan 23'' high at center with the reverse sheer of 6''to bows. Would have been 24'' but the guy who ripped the ply for my transportation purposes was in a hurry to help someone else and srewed up. So 23'' no big deal. I cut panels to form keel and sheer. I am glueing panals today to to form the length. I have come up with a bottom keel width of 15''and a sheer width of 20''at center on the 12' wwh to support 365lbs at 6'' waterline depth. The sitting area on my boat is to leeward a foot or two from wwh so some weight will be carried by lwh as well. This is about as wide as I want to go on wwh. I will have a look at different widths as the panels are built to determine the final width. I was planing on useing my old kokor hull 16'lx 2'd x 1'w as the leeward hull possibly, while building the 20' leeward hull. Yes there flat bottom hulls. How'd that model work out? Things I still need to contemplate. Not sure if I should go with rockered wwh? And not sure if I should use a reverse stem as well? I was thinking no rocker with a reverse stem to fully commit to piercing hull but the 15''width and sheer flare doesn't really feel like I'm committing to it. The length and displacment really buts me in a pickle. Whats the length of your boat? Todd --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...> wrote: > > Hi, > I ended up with 1/8" (which I think is 3mm) luan in 4x8 sheets. Hopefully it > will work out. I'll put a few internal bracers in. > > I am unsure of what to do about the crossbeams. I don't really want the > hulls much taller than 1', because I don't need the floatation, but it seems > that the crossbeams should be more than 6" off the water (i figure a 6" > immersion on the ww hull). Should I just make the U shaped, with short legs? > Just make the hulls 2' high where the crossbeams attach (my current pref). > > I was going to make the rudders out of foam and fiberglass, with 3- 4 intenal > plywood transverse pieces. I am worried that they might have too much > floatation though. What dimensions would you suggest for the actual rudder > blade? 1' x 3' x 2" at the center? > > I have an idea for a simple rudder mount where I can wait until I am on the > boat to attach the rudders. That way they don't have to lift, but can still > kick up if I hit something. > > I was going to use 1.5" hardwood dowel for the rudder stock. Is that strong > enough? > > I am getting nervous as I get closer. Everyone tells me that 3 days isn't > enough, but I hope they are wrong. I don't really want to build a boat; I > just want to sail one, so I am really hoping that I can get this in the > water before winter hits. > > - Gardner > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@.. .> wrote: > > > G'day, > > > > Dimensions make sense, but you will need a solid bulkhead (half inch) > > at the deck step if you go with the Raspcallion sheer line. I would > > make it flat between the beams then curve down towards the bows. > > > > Door skins are 2-3 mm, poor quality and smaller than 8x4. Two layer of > > dor skin with foam between them is heavier than 1 piece of 6mm. The > > 5.2 luan will do, but check the yellow pages, there might be a decent > > supplier in your area who has lighter/cheaper/ thinner. Door skins > > are good if you are making ply/foam/ply panels, but these are not > > worth the effort on a small boat. Foam makes poor reinforcing. > > Double the ply and it will be plenty strong. Better is to use tow for > > any tension loads. Foam beams will need more than one layer of glass, > > more like half a dozen or the sides will buckle. 6" is high, 4x4 will > > do with solid wood top and bottom, ply sides, unless they are longer > > than 8'. > > > > There is not enough room for my thoughts on simple rudders! > > Assymetric rudders are not self centring so you need to hold the > > tillers all the time, or rake the shafts. There are plenty of > > different things to try and I encourage you to try them all. Feel > > free to ask my opinion, and to ignore it, if you want to experiment. > > However, make them simple, rough and strong so you won't mind changing > > or scrapping them. Different arrangements on each beam will speed the > > process. I would start without making them kick up. Means you get > > wet launching and coming back but you wil be so excited the first > > couple of times, you won't notice the cold. > > > > Building instructions. Anything I miss or that doesn't sound right, > > let me know. > > Tools: 4" grinder and 40 grit discs, 40 grit sandpaper, electric > > screwdriver, jig saw, circular saw, hot melt glue gun, router with > > radiussed cutter is nice but not essential. > > > > Pre coat all your ply on one side with 2 coats of epoxy. The ply > > will soak up the first one, wait until it is tacky, then apply the > > second coat. If you are short of room, stack them on top of each > > other with drawing pins or other spacers between them. Make sure > > the spacers are covered with brown (not clear) plastic packaging tape > > (get a few rolls of this, very handy stuff). The sheets don't have to > > be perfectly flat. > > When cured, cut 2 and a half 8' lengths of whatever width the bottom > > is. Sand 40mm either side of the edges and join ( glue and screw) > > with 80mm wide butt blocks the width of the panels, less the width of > > the stringers. > > Run a string linedown the middle. > > Make the middle 50% parallel sided and clamp 2 full length stringers > > on to this. Scarf the stringers with an 8:1 scarf on the parallel > > section. Bend the ends in until they touch the string line. Check > > the stringers are near enough the same distance from the string line > > and the curve is fair. Draw a line round the outside of the > > stringers, remove them and cut the shape. > > Sand under the stringers and glue and screw them to the ply. The > > scarph joins should be supported with a taped piece of stringer. > > > > Butt join and cut the side panels ensuring they are the same (use one > > as a template) and glue them to the bottom stringers. Apply a fillet > > to the inside of the join at the bows. > > > > Cut 3 pieces of 3" (ish) od pvc pipe 2" higher than the side panels > > for mast tubes. Abrade the exterior end 3" of each. Screw and glue > > an 8" diameter ply disc under each mast step. Cut out and hot melt > > glue a ring frame 5' from each end. The ring frame is a bulkhead with > > a 3" gap down the middle for the pvc tube and a stringer across each > > half at the top to glue the deck to. Hot melt the pvc tubes in the > > ring frames. Make sure they are vertical. Glue and screw an 8" > > piece of stringer on edge fore and aft of each tube. Fillet and tape > > the bottom of the tubes to the ring frames and the 8" dia disc . > > Fillet in the ring frames. When cured, remove all screws from the > > inside and fill the holes with epoxy. > > > > Repeat for the windward hull, but without the ring frames. > > > > Cut the deck for the lee hull, the same way as the bottom was cut. > > Cut the holes (a little large is no problem, they can be filled later) > > for the mast tubes and glue an 8" stringer fore and aft of the tubes > > under the deck. Glue and screw the deck on and fillet and glass > > around the mast tubes. Repeat for the ww hull. When cured, remove the > > screws, round all the edges and apply a generous coat (or two if it > > soaks it up) of resin to the end grain. When cured, sand off the > > lumps, fill if required and glass tape the edge. Fill all the screw > > holes with epoxy. Two coats of resin over the exterior and the hulls > > are done. > > > > Beams: > > Cut strips of ply for the beam sides at 45 degrees and butt join them > > to make the length required. Glue and screw a stringer onto each > > edge, then glue more stringers onto those stringers until the beams > > are a U section of the required width. Fillet a ply bulkhead into the > > beams over the windward edge of the lee hull and another in each end. > > When cured, repeat for the other face to make a box. Make sure > > the internal face of the stringers is epoxied before closing it up. > > When cured, bounce on them to ensure they are strong enough. If not, > > add another layer of stringers to the top and bottom. Remove the > > screws, round the edges and glass it. > > > > How do you want to attach the beams to the hulls? Permanently is > > easiest, but it will be a big lift on and off the van, and it limits > > you to 8' wide, which may not be a bad thing. Tapered is most > > convenient, but is a bit more work. > > > > Tapering can be done by building the beam ends with a taper (does not > > need to be much) from the edge of the hull to the end of the beam , or > > building them up with bog. Keep the bottom of each beam straight. > > Only taper the top and sides. > > > > Once the taper is straight, wrap it with brown tape and apply a couple > > of layers of glass. When cured, glue this to the decks next to and > > outboard of the mast tubes and bond it in with some tow as per the > > photo 5 down, middle column at > > http://www.harrypro a.com/building_ Vis/building_ Vis_6.htm. I can post > > you some tow if you want some, or get some from Raps. Make sure the > > beams are not so much out of square that they cannot escape the taper > > when they are removed. > > > > Rudders and rig and go sailing. > > > > Anything that doesn't sound right probably isn't. Try and think > > through each stage before you start. The great thing about composites > > is mistakes are easily fixed with a 4" grinder and gaps are easily > > filled with bog. > > > > I am home this weekend, feel free to email, skype (harryproarob) or > > phone me (61 8 9284 3483) if you have any problems or questions, but > > check the time in Perth, Western Australia first. Don't call > > between 10 pm and 8 am. > > > > take some pictures, let us know how it goes. > > > > regards, > > > > Rob > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...<gardner%40networknow. org>> > > wrote: > > > Rob, > > > Those are pretty much the dimensions that I had thought of, except that I > > > was going to make the lee hull just 12" high, except for between the > > beams > > > (about 8 feet) where I would make it taller to give the mast some > > support. I > > > thought I would have 3 spots where I could put masts, so that I could try > > a > > > schooner rig or a single mast. > > > I can get 5.2mm luan at the local Home Depot or Lowes. I am calling > > around > > > to see if I can find what I call "door skin" which is the only thing I > > can > > > think of that might be lighter. > > > For reinforcing and the beams, I was going to try alternate layers of ply > > > and 1" foam. I thought I could get away with 4" thickness and 6" height > > with > > > the beams and then wrap the whole thing in 1 layer of fiberglass. > > > If you wanted to write up any instructions, I would be grateful, since > > this > > > will be my first boat project. I can wait for the real plans, since I > > don't > > > have an indoor place to build over the winter. We have a corn barn, which > > is > > > roofed over, but no walls. > > > I would be especially interested in your thoughts on simple rudders. They > > > need to be attached in shallow water, but I was going to just try > > > asymmetrical ones, which (I think) I should only have to move through > > about > > > 90 degrees for steering, and not have to flip for shunting. > > > Thanks much! > > > - Gardner > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@.. .<harryproa%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> G'day, > > >> > > >> Your harriette plans are pretty much done, but I am still learning the > > >> best way to shape the hulls, so I have not sent them. Can do if you > > >> would rather build the real thing rather than the rough and ready, > > >> although I think the rough and ready will answer your requirements > > >> very well. > > >> > > >> My thoughts on rough and ready. Happy to supply whatever info you > > >> need to build it and to alter the following to suit whatever you are > > >> doing. > > >> > > >> Big problem with non structural foam is mounting the mast and beams. > > >> I would go with ply (or other panel material if you can get it > > >> lighter), vertical sides, horizontal bottom and decks, no rocker, > > >> glued and screwed (remove them after cure and fill the holes with > > >> epoxy), internal butt joins and ignore the comments about double ended > > >> coffins. > > >> > > >> 2 hulls and 2 beams should be doable in 3 days if you make an oven > > >> (piece of plastic thrown over the job with a blower heater inside it) > > >> for speedy curing of the epoxy fillets and taping (not for coating as > > >> it will bubble). Rudders will take a bit longer, but look around for > > >> some old hobie rudders, which can be mounted on the beams. Not ideal, > > >> but cheap and quick. > > >> > > >> I would get the ply (4mm, not 6) and coat one side of all the sheets > > >> with 2 rolled on coats (2nnd as soon as the first is tacky so no > > >> sanding required) of epoxy and use this as the internal surface. Do > > >> this now so it is ready for the weekend. This is the main > > >> difference between a boat which will rot in a couple of months and one > > >> which will last forever. > > >> > > >> I think that the lee hull could be 24" high (half a sheet of ply) x > > >> 16" wide (12" is less waste, but may break), parallel for the middle > > >> 25%, tapering to a point at the ends. Bulkheads filletted in at the > > >> beams and ring frame at the mast. Bit less than 12 sqm, or 4 sheets > > >> (5 sheets to allow for wastage and butt blocks), plus 80' of stringer. > > >> Heavy, but liftable on and off the van one end at a time. The > > >> windward hull presumably has to support you so 14' x 1' x 1' (800 > > >> pounds buoyancy for a square box of these dimensions, say 60% of that > > >> for tapered ends) will do the job. Could actually be 12' which will > > >> be more economical. 3/4" square stringers determine the shape and keep > > >> everything square. > > >> > > >> Beams are ply sides(at +/-45) 4" square with 3/4" solid timber top and > > >> bottom. > > >> > > >> If this appeals, let me know and I will check the numbers and write > > >> some quick and dirty building instructions. > > >> > > >> regards, > > >> > > >> Rob > > >> > > >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 3:29 AM, gardnerpomper <gardner@...<gardner%40networknow. org> > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > Hi, > > >> > > > >> > I will unexpectedly have a 3 day weekend free this coming weekend. I > > >> > want to try to slap together a small proa. I am figuring a 20' lw > > >> > hull, 14' ww hull and a 12' beam. > > >> > > > >> > My first thought for speed of construction was 1/4" plywood, but as I > > >> > add up the required materials, I am up to 10 sheets of plywood at > > >> > (estimated) 25 lbs each. Once I add in the weight of expoxy and > > >> > fiberglass tape, etc, each hull will be about 150 lbs and it will be > > >> > hard for me to get that on/off the top of my van for transporting, > > >> > even in pieces. > > >> > > > >> > Can I save weight with foam and hand layup glass? I know I should do > > >> > vacuum infusion, but I don't have time to learn that and build a > > >> > table, etc, etc. I was going to try 1" rigid blue insulating foam from > > >> > Home Depot (I know, bad material, but I just want the boat to last a > > >> > couple months). I think if I use epoxy instead of vinylester, it won't > > >> > eat the foam. > > >> > > > >> > So, what weight glass do I need? I figure about 100 sq ft of surface > > >> > needs to be covered (on both sides) so that is 200 sq ft of glass. > > >> > > > >> > How much epoxy (about) will I need for that? 5 gallons? > > >> > > > >> > Thanks for any input. This is just a practice boat. Next spring I hope > > >> > to build a "real" version of this from the harriette plans I bought > > >> > (will they be coming soon, rob?) > > >> > > > >> > Basically, I want a boat that I can play with the following items to > > >> > determine if they work: > > >> > > > >> > 1) asymmetrical rudders, so they dont' have to flip 180 degrees > > >> > 2) rudders halfway (or more) to the windward hull > > >> > 3) dynarig > > >> > 4) just being a proa! > > >> > > > >> > - Gardner > > >> > York, PA > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >