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Springs against Capsize   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #538 of 6705 |
Re: Springs against Capsize


>
> >My idea is to use your idea, and link it not to capsizing the rig,
> >but pulling up the board. That way when loads increase the boat
> just
> >skids to soak up the energy.
>
> Very interesting indeed.
> My first thought is that in gusty weather, how would behave a proa
> skiding sideway ? Interaction with waves may not lead to as much
> energy decrease as you expect. And here I return your argument of
> Time : how long would it take to reduce the load on the sail, would
> it be fast enough to prevent capsize ? Just questions. I have no
> answer to these.
> But I'm afraid of the complexity of the rudders in your system. HP
> rudders seem to already be complex pieces with 2, 3, 4 ( ?)
> rotational axis), if you add your system, will the rudders still be
> reliable ?

For the sake of argument, I am just assuming your system won't work.
As an alternative one could attempt some other mitigation other than
leaning the whole rig. I agree the boards are too complicated,
actualy currently Rob has a winning design but "nobody" has seen it.
Anyway the externaly mounted rudder vs one in a slot has some
potential for triping, while in a slot I think the loads would be too
great to simply overcom. Not convinced either idea is all that
worthwhile.

On the mousetrap thing, it a funny image, but I'm not entirely
joking. How violently does the mast reset, and how often? There
used to be an idea called a fuseable cleat, and also earlier blast
from the 60s systems with pendula and sear, that would trip the
sheets above certain loads. i think there are two potential lessons
there. First, while these various systems were seriously proposed,
nobody added the additional complication or having systems that
releases under wind load, but hauled in again. Kinda what you are
proposing in another form. It's not so difficult to release, but
grabing back is a big deal.

To some extent nobody bothers with these things any more either.
Basicaly the cries of horror went away with added beam, and probably
also higher average skipper skills/familiarity.

On capsize, it really isn't an issue in multihull design. It is a
topic, which comes up because there is no way to kill it off
completely, for some reason we keep draging it forward by
generation. It's like worrying about the wings falling off an
airplane. It still happens from time to time. It's something that
is imaginable in the context of the craft. But the key factor is
that it can be pretty completely designed around. At some point in
early aviation, there must have been a period when they didn't know
what the safety factors were, 6Gs, 2Gs? And also didn't know how to
construct good details. Same with Multis. There was a time when we
didn't know how to sail them, or design them, but we do now. You can
have as much stability, and resistance to capsize as you want. It
will compromise other factors, but basicaly cats are designed within
similar safety parameters as other cruising boats. What is truly
perverse is that capsize remains something that seems almost more
feared than sinking monos, or serail capsize in monos. There is zero
logic there. So if the probability is no greater with a multi, and
the outcome often more benign, what are we talking about?




Thu Oct 2, 2003 9:23 am

proaconstrictor
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Message #538 of 6705 |
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Hi All, below is an extract of a mail I sent to Rob some months ago. Similar ideas seem to be floating in the air recently in the Harryproa group. I know it...
artus_imbert
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Sep 29, 2003
10:26 pm

-Hi-Axel, I think you mised the point about the advantage of the Harry over the Atlantic. Assuming that accommodation is a significant load then you want the ...
Robert
cateran1949
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Sep 29, 2003
11:16 pm

I think you have done some very interesting thinking about this. I would divide it into two general areas: The idea of some kind of spring against capsize....
proaconstrictor
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Sep 30, 2003
8:16 pm

One of the best and most reliable springs is the old leaf spring seen now days only under the rear axle of trucks as most cars have gone to the uni-strut and...
Grona Jr, Robert J.
ppl_rjg
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Sep 30, 2003
8:23 pm

I think you have done some very interesting thinking about this. I would divide it into two general areas: The idea of some kind of spring against capsize....
proaconstrictor
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Sep 30, 2003
8:24 pm

Axel Can you load a sketch of what's proposed please There are many sentiments I agree with in this discussion <Considering capsizing as an event that cannot...
matt_the_jaffa
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Oct 1, 2003
8:10 am

... the ... Hi Robert. I clearly understand the difference between Atlantic and Harryproa, and as many here I guess, the interests of having accomodation ...
artus_imbert
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Oct 1, 2003
10:26 pm

... My ... push ... I wish you are right…. […/…] ... Invention is something else. This is nothing more than an idea, based on no facts. Even if it may...
artus_imbert
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Oct 1, 2003
10:28 pm

... For the sake of argument, I am just assuming your system won't work. As an alternative one could attempt some other mitigation other than leaning the whole...
proaconstrictor
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Oct 2, 2003
9:23 am

Instead of adding the mechanical complexity and cost of springs and hardware to allow the mast to release under load, why not put one of those floats that...
Peter C. King
pckingpcking
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Oct 2, 2003
12:27 pm

... hardware to allow the mast to release under load, why not put one of those floats that looks like a little blimp at the top of the mast? You cannot capsize...
proaconstrictor
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Oct 2, 2003
5:56 pm

... But fuses are used. That is, a length of cord designed to break at the desired tension and attached (sewn ?) to form a bight in the sheet. When the wind...
Dave Howorth
Dave_Howorth
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Oct 2, 2003
7:26 pm

... the ... sheet. When ... metre or ... IIRC. ... Sure they are, but it's not like they are stock on F boats or something. They used to be promoted on the...
proaconstrictor
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Oct 5, 2003
3:35 am

<Anyway, I'm done, since I don't consider any of this primary. BEEEP Wrong Got to disagree (with respect) If the C problem is not solved effectively from the...
matt_the_jaffa
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Oct 2, 2003
7:54 pm

... Well it would be primary if you built a boat that capsized with great regularity, you know a trimaran with no amas. As it's worked out today there isn't a...
proaconstrictor
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Oct 5, 2003
3:49 am

There's one last Reason/Motivation to develop the capsize recoverable Multihull (You can Trust me on this) Logos don't look good upside down. The Corporations...
matt_the_jaffa
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Oct 5, 2003
7:24 am

... I'm not sure I agree. Hard to explain stock car racing, where the cars are always munching up and flipping. I will admit that putting some logos...
proaconstrictor
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Oct 6, 2003
6:45 pm

Hi Peter, The top-of-mast-floats may prevent the mast to go underwater, boat upside down, but this won't prevent people to be ejected either overboard or to be...
artus_imbert
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Oct 7, 2003
9:27 pm

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