a new design based on an aerofoil shape (with an inflatable bag in front of the mast, which also prevents the boat from inverting in a capsize situation), giving it maximum thrust and minimum drag.

 

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 027 428 4648 

Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein

A while back (nearly a year ago)
I said I'd post the titles of some books I'd read

I am re reading

"Nga Waka O nehera"
The first voyaging canoes
ISBN 0 7900 0557 3
By Jeff Evans

Which is a collection of Maori and polynesian
records of approx 180+ different canoes visits to
Aotearoa NZ

It's such a good book
he states he could have added more as there are
more records he could have gone through but didn't have time

The epic struggles/battles drama/insults/romance the distances sailed
just to fulfill vendettas etc etc make it just excellent reading

The detail they memorise is amasing the prayers said the crew
members names the names of the sacred adzes that built the Boats
who built them why, what happened etc etc

As i do my own research there is no doubt in my mind
that there was an extended period of voyagin that is truly
staggering

There are hundreds of Coastal place names in New Zealand
are derived from what happened on one of those 180 + voyaging waka's

There are little logical indications and clues behind the place names
which are quite interesting (and not all are in the book)

People who believe that the pacific was colonised
by polynesians randomly drifting on logs or being blown off course
from fishing expiditions seriously need
to look at the evidence Human and oral.

What's interesting indications are that some of them at least
were a form of sea going Waka Ama or Proa

better not spoil it for you

If you get to read if you are interested
enjoy it

I remain partial to a crank on the case itself.  Self-contained,
avoids lines that foul the rudder or foul the mainsheet.

Yes it does add a slight bit of mechanics "hardware" yet seems
a good engineered solution to complication of both up or down
movement.  Yes it looks like 1.5 meters of lift to set the rudder at
displacement depth for a visionarry.  Could snag a lot of lines
with just the rudders themselves.  Granted most shallow running
would not be raised to that extent.

Other optional ideas such as running a threaded rod though the
rudder and burying a nut about halfway down inside the rudder
itself is a possibility.   A dozen ways to turn that.   My reco would
be at full down the threaded rod is flush with the top.  Full up the
rod is buried inside the rudder.

Regards,

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...> wrote:
> Anything sticking up from the rudders runs the risk of hooking
the mainsheet. While
> Rob was
>
> Mark
>
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:35 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Rob,
>
>   Point taken-unless the rudder cheeks are made ridiculously
tall or
>   incorporate a small mast to put  nav lights on -The
reasonable
>   version may be useful for partially lifting board for shallows or
>   down wind.
>
>   Robert
>
>   In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...> wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > True, but would limit the lifting height available unless the
>   string was attached to the board below the water.  Draggy and
not
>   very elegant.
>   >
>   > regards,
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Thanks Rob,
>   >   Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the
uphaul, provided
>   it
>   >   is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg
downhaul.
>   >   My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of
the
>   blade
>   >   passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of
the
>   cheek
>   >   round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying
off
>   at a
>   >   point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This
would
>   allow
>   >   lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no
>   matter
>   >   what angle  the blades are facing,
>   >   Robert
>   >
>   >   -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...>
>   wrote:
>   >   > G'day,
>   >   >
>   >   > What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of
water they
>   >   displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift, but
>   the
>   >   potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>   >   >
>   >   > regards,
>   >   >
>   >   > Rob
>   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to
>   their
>   >   lowest
>   >   >   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the
blades,
>   >   fully
>   >   >   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully
down
>   >   >   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull
them
>   down
>   >   to
>   >   >   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort
to
>   lift
>   >   them
>   >   >   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their
weight
>   the
>   >   >   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting
effort.
>   >   >   Robert
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...>
>   >   wrote:
>   >   >   > G'day,
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will
be
>   even
>   >   >   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should
be on
>   the
>   >   >   next update.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Regards
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Rob
>   >   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the
rudders
>   >   raking
>   >   >   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and
reduce
>   tiller
>   >   >   loads.
>   >   >   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately
>   there
>   >   >   doesn't
>   >   >   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to
>   accommodate
>   >   the
>   >   >   arm
>   >   >   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with
drawing a
>   >   kick up
>   >   >   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the
loads
>   and
>   >   >   have
>   >   >   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the
>   rudders
>   >   >   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   >   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is
>   the
>   >   >   thought
>   >   >   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its
maximum
>   depth
>   >   and
>   >   >   so
>   >   >   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it
floats.
>   I
>   >   don't
>   >   >   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an
eighth
>   of
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without
mechanical
>   >   >   advantage
>   >   >   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   >   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of
>   blocks
>   >   >   should
>   >   >   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the
problem
>   of
>   >   >   getting
>   >   >   >   it down.
>   >   >   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about
1/5
>   >   from
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on
deck
>   >   then
>   >   >   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
>   >   engineering
>   >   >   and a
>   >   >   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you
>   don't
>   >   need
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring
loaded
>   and
>   >   able
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   >   >   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   >   >   wrote:
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what
can/cannot
>   >   work.
>   >   >   >   Don't
>   >   >   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what
>   options
>   >   are
>   >   >   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully
deployed.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the
side
>   >   load
>   >   >   >   against
>   >   >   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other
engineered
>   >   >   solutions.
>   >   >   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical
>   option
>   >   looks
>   >   >   >   better
>   >   >   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
>   >   components
>   >   >   or
>   >   >   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You
>   provide
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   details
>   >   >   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a
"drop
>   ship"
>   >   order.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan
set.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was
>   neat
>   >   as it
>   >   >   >   gave
>   >   >   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably
>   delrin
>   >   >   pins
>   >   >   >   for
>   >   >   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that
>   >   badly
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as
>   we
>   >   only
>   >   >   need
>   >   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the
>   horizontal
>   >   >   capstan
>   >   >   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a
>   lawnmower
>   >   >   start
>   >   >   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just
>   add
>   >   a
>   >   >   cam
>   >   >   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the
rudder
>   up
>   >   long
>   >   >   >   enough
>   >   >   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a
stop.
>   >   Have an
>   >   >   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the
>   line
>   >   can be
>   >   >   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be
>   sufficient
>   >   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the
toothed
>   side
>   >   for
>   >   >   >   even
>   >   >   >   > more power.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the
>   cases
>   >   >   angle
>   >   >   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the
crossbeam when
>   the
>   >   rudder
>   >   >   is
>   >   >   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your
photos
>   in
>   >   report
>   >   >   7
>   >   >   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam
when
>   >   closest.
>   >   >   >   That
>   >   >   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake
toward
>   the
>   >   >   >   direction
>   >   >   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a
>   planset
>   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   >   be
>   >   >   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final
>   design.
>   >   >   Would
>   >   >   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not
in
>   >   electronic
>   >   >   >   form
>   >   >   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Regards,
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > JT
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark
Stephens"
>   >   >   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   >   >   > wrote:
>   >   >   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those
>   ideas
>   >   of
>   >   >   >   coarse
>   >   >   >   > and many more,
>   >   >   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design
most
>   >   needs
>   >   >   can be
>   >   >   >   > overcome with
>   >   >   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is
to
>   keep
>   >   it
>   >   >   simple
>   >   >   >   > and cheap for
>   >   >   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the
minimum
>   use
>   >   of
>   >   >   >   metals.
>   >   >   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   >   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a
way to
>   >   reduce
>   >   >   >   > friction which
>   >   >   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not
have
>   any
>   >   more
>   >   >   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   >   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future
boats
>   but
>   >   at
>   >   >   >   > present we have
>   >   >   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built
so a
>   >   simple
>   >   >   uphaul
>   >   >   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   >   >   > > likely.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when
rotated
>   that
>   >   way.
>   >   >   In
>   >   >   >   > fact they cant
>   >   >   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract
back
>   up
>   >   over
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   >   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is
no
>   need
>   >   to go
>   >   >   out
>   >   >   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   >   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated
>   towards
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   >   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Mark
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > *************************
>   >   >   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   >   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   >   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   >   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   >   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   >   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   >   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock
on the
>   aft
>   >   end
>   >   >   of
>   >   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
>   >   located.
>   >   >   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   >   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as
long as
>   >   desired
>   >   >   for
>   >   >   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted
on
>   a
>   >   paw
>   >   >   gear.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can
>   either
>   >   be
>   >   >   rack
>   >   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want
>   torque
>   >   a
>   >   >   worm
>   >   >   >   > gear.
>   >   >   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be
in
>   the
>   >   water
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   it
>   >   >   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a
>   loop
>   >   in
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > handle
>   >   >   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or
drop
>   the
>   >   >   rudder
>   >   >   >   in
>   >   >   >   > the
>   >   >   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull
the
>   >   ratchet
>   >   >   handle
>   >   >   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet
>   >   handle
>   >   >   with a
>   >   >   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal
capstan.
>   But
>   >   >   trying to
>   >   >   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment
>   freedom,
>   >   but
>   >   >   >   would
>   >   >   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial
>   up
>   >   >   positions
>   >   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy
>   >   operation
>   >   >   >   other
>   >   >   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of
>   >   design
>   >   >   this
>   >   >   >   > seems
>   >   >   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders
is
>   an
>   >   >   essential
>   >   >   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the
>   >   rudders
>   >   >   >   > themselves
>   >   >   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it
>   >   will be
>   >   >   >   > connected
>   >   >   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were
>   moved
>   >   to
>   >   >   >   beneath
>   >   >   >   > the
>   >   >   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much
simpler
>   affair.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the
>   visionarry
>   >   >   rudders
>   >   >   >   with
>   >   >   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   JT
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > ------------------------------------------------------
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   ----
>   >   >   >   --
>   >   >   >   > ----------
>   >   >   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email
>   to:
>   >   >   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
>   >   Yahoo!
>   >   >   Terms
>   >   >   >   of
>   >   >   >   > Service.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > ------------------------------------------------------------
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   ----------
>   >   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
>   >   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
>   >   Terms of
>   >   >   Service.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
>   ----
>   >   ----------
>   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >
>   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >
>   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >
>   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
>   Terms of
>   >   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.

Does this mean that extra care needs be taken with the mainsheet with
rudders partly up in shallow water?
Robert

/
?
--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
wrote:
> Anything sticking up from the rudders runs the risk of hooking the
mainsheet. While
> Rob was
>
> Mark
>
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:35 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Rob,
>
>   Point taken-unless the rudder cheeks are made ridiculously tall or
>   incorporate a small mast to put  nav lights on -The reasonable
>   version may be useful for partially lifting board for shallows or
>   down wind.
>
>   Robert
>
>   In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > True, but would limit the lifting height available unless the
>   string was attached to the board below the water.  Draggy and not
>   very elegant.
>   >
>   > regards,
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Thanks Rob,
>   >   Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the uphaul,
provided
>   it
>   >   is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg downhaul.
>   >   My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of the
>   blade
>   >   passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of the
>   cheek
>   >   round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying
off
>   at a
>   >   point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This would
>   allow
>   >   lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no
>   matter
>   >   what angle  the blades are facing,
>   >   Robert
>   >
>   >   -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
>   wrote:
>   >   > G'day,
>   >   >
>   >   > What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of water
they
>   >   displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift,
but
>   the
>   >   potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>   >   >
>   >   > regards,
>   >   >
>   >   > Rob
>   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to
>   their
>   >   lowest
>   >   >   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the
blades,
>   >   fully
>   >   >   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully
down
>   >   >   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull
them
>   down
>   >   to
>   >   >   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to
>   lift
>   >   them
>   >   >   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their
weight
>   the
>   >   >   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting
effort.
>   >   >   Robert
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
<proa@i...>
>   >   wrote:
>   >   >   > G'day,
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will
be
>   even
>   >   >   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should
be on
>   the
>   >   >   next update.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Regards
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Rob
>   >   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the
rudders
>   >   raking
>   >   >   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce
>   tiller
>   >   >   loads.
>   >   >   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation.
Unfortunately
>   there
>   >   >   doesn't
>   >   >   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to
>   accommodate
>   >   the
>   >   >   arm
>   >   >   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with
drawing a
>   >   kick up
>   >   >   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the
loads
>   and
>   >   >   have
>   >   >   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the
>   rudders
>   >   >   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   >   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There
is
>   the
>   >   >   thought
>   >   >   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum
>   depth
>   >   and
>   >   >   so
>   >   >   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it
floats.
>   I
>   >   don't
>   >   >   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an
eighth
>   of
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without
mechanical
>   >   >   advantage
>   >   >   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   >   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of
>   blocks
>   >   >   should
>   >   >   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the
problem
>   of
>   >   >   getting
>   >   >   >   it down.
>   >   >   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about
1/5
>   >   from
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on
deck
>   >   then
>   >   >   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
>   >   engineering
>   >   >   and a
>   >   >   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you
>   don't
>   >   need
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring
loaded
>   and
>   >   able
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   >   >   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   >   >   wrote:
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what
can/cannot
>   >   work.
>   >   >   >   Don't
>   >   >   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what
>   options
>   >   are
>   >   >   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully
deployed.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the
side
>   >   load
>   >   >   >   against
>   >   >   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other
engineered
>   >   >   solutions.
>   >   >   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical
>   option
>   >   looks
>   >   >   >   better
>   >   >   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
>   >   components
>   >   >   or
>   >   >   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You
>   provide
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   details
>   >   >   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop
>   ship"
>   >   order.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan
set.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was
>   neat
>   >   as it
>   >   >   >   gave
>   >   >   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably
>   delrin
>   >   >   pins
>   >   >   >   for
>   >   >   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow
that
>   >   badly
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil
as
>   we
>   >   only
>   >   >   need
>   >   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the
>   horizontal
>   >   >   capstan
>   >   >   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a
>   lawnmower
>   >   >   start
>   >   >   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself
just
>   add
>   >   a
>   >   >   cam
>   >   >   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the
rudder
>   up
>   >   long
>   >   >   >   enough
>   >   >   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a
stop.
>   >   Have an
>   >   >   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the
>   line
>   >   can be
>   >   >   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be
>   sufficient
>   >   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the
toothed
>   side
>   >   for
>   >   >   >   even
>   >   >   >   > more power.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the
>   cases
>   >   >   angle
>   >   >   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when
>   the
>   >   rudder
>   >   >   is
>   >   >   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your
photos
>   in
>   >   report
>   >   >   7
>   >   >   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam
when
>   >   closest.
>   >   >   >   That
>   >   >   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake
toward
>   the
>   >   >   >   direction
>   >   >   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a
>   planset
>   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   >   be
>   >   >   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final
>   design.
>   >   >   Would
>   >   >   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in
>   >   electronic
>   >   >   >   form
>   >   >   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > Regards,
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > JT
>   >   >   >   >
>   >   >   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   >   >   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   >   >   > wrote:
>   >   >   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of
those
>   ideas
>   >   of
>   >   >   >   coarse
>   >   >   >   > and many more,
>   >   >   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design
most
>   >   needs
>   >   >   can be
>   >   >   >   > overcome with
>   >   >   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to
>   keep
>   >   it
>   >   >   simple
>   >   >   >   > and cheap for
>   >   >   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the
minimum
>   use
>   >   of
>   >   >   >   metals.
>   >   >   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   >   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a
way to
>   >   reduce
>   >   >   >   > friction which
>   >   >   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not
have
>   any
>   >   more
>   >   >   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   >   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future
boats
>   but
>   >   at
>   >   >   >   > present we have
>   >   >   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so
a
>   >   simple
>   >   >   uphaul
>   >   >   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   >   >   > > likely.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when
rotated
>   that
>   >   way.
>   >   >   In
>   >   >   >   > fact they cant
>   >   >   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract
back
>   up
>   >   over
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   >   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no
>   need
>   >   to go
>   >   >   out
>   >   >   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   >   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated
>   towards
>   >   the
>   >   >   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   >   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > Mark
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > *************************
>   >   >   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   >   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   >   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   >   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   >   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   >   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   >   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on
the
>   aft
>   >   end
>   >   >   of
>   >   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
>   >   located.
>   >   >   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   >   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as
long as
>   >   desired
>   >   >   for
>   >   >   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity
weighted on
>   a
>   >   paw
>   >   >   gear.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can
>   either
>   >   be
>   >   >   rack
>   >   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want
>   torque
>   >   a
>   >   >   worm
>   >   >   >   > gear.
>   >   >   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in
>   the
>   >   water
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   >   it
>   >   >   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.
Since a
>   loop
>   >   in
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   >   > handle
>   >   >   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or
drop
>   the
>   >   >   rudder
>   >   >   >   in
>   >   >   >   > the
>   >   >   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull
the
>   >   ratchet
>   >   >   handle
>   >   >   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the
ratchet
>   >   handle
>   >   >   with a
>   >   >   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal
capstan.
>   But
>   >   >   trying to
>   >   >   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment
>   freedom,
>   >   but
>   >   >   >   would
>   >   >   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or
partial
>   up
>   >   >   positions
>   >   >   >   to
>   >   >   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any
lengthy
>   >   operation
>   >   >   >   other
>   >   >   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method
of
>   >   design
>   >   >   this
>   >   >   >   > seems
>   >   >   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the
rudders is
>   an
>   >   >   essential
>   >   >   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on
the
>   >   rudders
>   >   >   >   > themselves
>   >   >   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation
or it
>   >   will be
>   >   >   >   > connected
>   >   >   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were
>   moved
>   >   to
>   >   >   >   beneath
>   >   >   >   > the
>   >   >   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler
>   affair.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the
>   visionarry
>   >   >   rudders
>   >   >   >   with
>   >   >   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >   JT
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > > --------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   ----
>   >   >   >   --
>   >   >   >   > ----------
>   >   >   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email
>   to:
>   >   >   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   >   > >
>   >   >   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
the
>   >   Yahoo!
>   >   >   Terms
>   >   >   >   of
>   >   >   >   > Service.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > --------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   ----------
>   >   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
>   >   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
>   >   Terms of
>   >   >   Service.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > ------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----------
>   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >
>   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >
>   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >
>   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
>   Terms of
>   >   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 5:35 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift

Rob,

Point taken-unless the rudder cheeks are made ridiculously tall or
incorporate a small mast to put  nav lights on -The reasonable
version may be useful for partially lifting board for shallows or
down wind.

Robert

In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> True, but would limit the lifting height available unless the
string was attached to the board below the water.  Draggy and not
very elegant.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Thanks Rob,
>   Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the uphaul, provided
it
>   is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg downhaul.
>   My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of the
blade
>   passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of the
cheek
>   round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying off
at a
>   point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This would
allow
>   lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no
matter
>   what angle  the blades are facing,
>   Robert
>
>   -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of water they
>   displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift, but
the
>   potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>   >
>   > regards,
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to
their
>   lowest
>   >   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades,
>   fully
>   >   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
>   >   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them
down
>   to
>   >   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to
lift
>   them
>   >   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight
the
>   >   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
>   >   Robert
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
>   wrote:
>   >   > G'day,
>   >   >
>   >   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be
even
>   >   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on
the
>   >   next update.
>   >   >
>   >   > Regards
>   >   >
>   >   > Rob
>   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders
>   raking
>   >   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce
tiller
>   >   loads.
>   >   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately
there
>   >   doesn't
>   >   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to
accommodate
>   the
>   >   arm
>   >   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a
>   kick up
>   >   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads
and
>   >   have
>   >   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the
rudders
>   >   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is
the
>   >   thought
>   >   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum
depth
>   and
>   >   so
>   >   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats.
I
>   don't
>   >   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth
of
>   the
>   >   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
>   >   advantage
>   >   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of
blocks
>   >   should
>   >   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem
of
>   >   getting
>   >   >   it down.
>   >   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5
>   from
>   >   the
>   >   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck
>   then
>   >   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
>   engineering
>   >   and a
>   >   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you
don't
>   need
>   >   to
>   >   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded
and
>   able
>   >   to
>   >   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   >   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   >   wrote:
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot
>   work. 
>   >   >   Don't
>   >   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what
options
>   are
>   >   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side
>   load
>   >   >   against
>   >   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
>   >   solutions. 
>   >   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical
option
>   looks
>   >   >   better
>   >   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
>   components
>   >   or
>   >   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You
provide
>   the
>   >   >   details
>   >   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop
ship"
>   order.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was
neat
>   as it
>   >   >   gave
>   >   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably
delrin
>   >   pins
>   >   >   for
>   >   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that
>   badly
>   >   and
>   >   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as
we
>   only
>   >   need
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the
horizontal
>   >   capstan
>   >   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a
lawnmower
>   >   start
>   >   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just
add
>   a
>   >   cam
>   >   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder
up
>   long
>   >   >   enough
>   >   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop. 
>   Have an
>   >   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the
line
>   can be
>   >   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be
sufficient
>   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed
side
>   for
>   >   >   even
>   >   >   > more power.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the
cases
>   >   angle
>   >   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when
the
>   rudder
>   >   is
>   >   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos
in
>   report
>   >   7
>   >   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when
>   closest. 
>   >   >   That
>   >   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward
the
>   >   >   direction
>   >   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a
planset
>   >   purchase
>   >   >   be
>   >   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final
design. 
>   >   Would
>   >   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in
>   electronic
>   >   >   form
>   >   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Regards,
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > JT
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   >   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   >   > wrote:
>   >   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those
ideas
>   of
>   >   >   coarse
>   >   >   > and many more,
>   >   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most 
>   needs
>   >   can be
>   >   >   > overcome with
>   >   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to
keep
>   it
>   >   simple
>   >   >   > and cheap for
>   >   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum
use
>   of
>   >   >   metals.
>   >   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to
>   reduce
>   >   >   > friction which
>   >   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have
any
>   more
>   >   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats
but
>   at
>   >   >   > present we have
>   >   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a
>   simple
>   >   uphaul
>   >   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   >   > > likely.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated
that
>   way.
>   >   In
>   >   >   > fact they cant
>   >   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back
up
>   over
>   >   the
>   >   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no
need
>   to go
>   >   out
>   >   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated
towards
>   the
>   >   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Mark
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > *************************
>   >   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the
aft
>   end
>   >   of
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
>   located. 
>   >   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as
>   desired
>   >   for
>   >   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on
a
>   paw
>   >   gear.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can
either
>   be
>   >   rack
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want
torque
>   a
>   >   worm
>   >   >   > gear.
>   >   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in
the
>   water
>   >   and
>   >   >   it
>   >   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a
loop
>   in
>   >   the
>   >   >   > handle
>   >   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop
the
>   >   rudder
>   >   >   in
>   >   >   > the
>   >   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the
>   ratchet
>   >   handle
>   >   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet
>   handle
>   >   with a
>   >   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan. 
But
>   >   trying to
>   >   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment
freedom,
>   but
>   >   >   would
>   >   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial
up
>   >   positions
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy
>   operation
>   >   >   other
>   >   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of
>   design
>   >   this
>   >   >   > seems
>   >   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is
an
>   >   essential
>   >   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the
>   rudders
>   >   >   > themselves
>   >   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it
>   will be
>   >   >   > connected
>   >   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were
moved
>   to
>   >   >   beneath
>   >   >   > the
>   >   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler
affair.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the
visionarry
>   >   rudders
>   >   >   with
>   >   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   JT
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > ------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   --
>   >   >   > ----------
>   >   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
>   >   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
>   Yahoo!
>   >   Terms
>   >   >   of
>   >   >   > Service.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > ------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----------
>   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >
>   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >      
>   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >      
>   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
>   Terms of
>   >   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >      
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >      
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>      
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>      
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Rob,

Point taken-unless the rudder cheeks are made ridiculously tall or
incorporate a small mast to put  nav lights on -The reasonable
version may be useful for partially lifting board for shallows or
down wind.

Robert

In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> True, but would limit the lifting height available unless the
string was attached to the board below the water.  Draggy and not
very elegant.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Thanks Rob,
>   Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the uphaul, provided
it
>   is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg downhaul.
>   My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of the
blade
>   passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of the
cheek
>   round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying off
at a
>   point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This would
allow
>   lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no
matter
>   what angle  the blades are facing,
>   Robert
>
>   -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of water they
>   displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift, but
the
>   potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>   >
>   > regards,
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to
their
>   lowest
>   >   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades,
>   fully
>   >   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
>   >   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them
down
>   to
>   >   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to
lift
>   them
>   >   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight
the
>   >   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
>   >   Robert
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
>   wrote:
>   >   > G'day,
>   >   >
>   >   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be
even
>   >   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on
the
>   >   next update.
>   >   >
>   >   > Regards
>   >   >
>   >   > Rob
>   >   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   From: Robert
>   >   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders
>   raking
>   >   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce
tiller
>   >   loads.
>   >   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately
there
>   >   doesn't
>   >   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to
accommodate
>   the
>   >   arm
>   >   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a
>   kick up
>   >   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads
and
>   >   have
>   >   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the
rudders
>   >   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is
the
>   >   thought
>   >   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum
depth
>   and
>   >   so
>   >   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats.
I
>   don't
>   >   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth
of
>   the
>   >   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
>   >   advantage
>   >   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of
blocks
>   >   should
>   >   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem
of
>   >   getting
>   >   >   it down.
>   >   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5
>   from
>   >   the
>   >   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck
>   then
>   >   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
>   engineering
>   >   and a
>   >   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you
don't
>   need
>   >   to
>   >   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded
and
>   able
>   >   to
>   >   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   >   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   >   wrote:
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot
>   work.
>   >   >   Don't
>   >   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what
options
>   are
>   >   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side
>   load
>   >   >   against
>   >   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
>   >   solutions.
>   >   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical
option
>   looks
>   >   >   better
>   >   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
>   components
>   >   or
>   >   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You
provide
>   the
>   >   >   details
>   >   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop
ship"
>   order.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was
neat
>   as it
>   >   >   gave
>   >   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably
delrin
>   >   pins
>   >   >   for
>   >   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that
>   badly
>   >   and
>   >   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as
we
>   only
>   >   need
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the
horizontal
>   >   capstan
>   >   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a
lawnmower
>   >   start
>   >   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just
add
>   a
>   >   cam
>   >   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder
up
>   long
>   >   >   enough
>   >   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.
>   Have an
>   >   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the
line
>   can be
>   >   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be
sufficient
>   >   >   purchase
>   >   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed
side
>   for
>   >   >   even
>   >   >   > more power.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the
cases
>   >   angle
>   >   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when
the
>   rudder
>   >   is
>   >   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos
in
>   report
>   >   7
>   >   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when
>   closest.
>   >   >   That
>   >   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward
the
>   >   >   direction
>   >   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a
planset
>   >   purchase
>   >   >   be
>   >   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final
design.
>   >   Would
>   >   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in
>   electronic
>   >   >   form
>   >   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > Regards,
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > JT
>   >   >   >
>   >   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   >   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   >   > wrote:
>   >   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those
ideas
>   of
>   >   >   coarse
>   >   >   > and many more,
>   >   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most
>   needs
>   >   can be
>   >   >   > overcome with
>   >   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to
keep
>   it
>   >   simple
>   >   >   > and cheap for
>   >   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum
use
>   of
>   >   >   metals.
>   >   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to
>   reduce
>   >   >   > friction which
>   >   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have
any
>   more
>   >   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats
but
>   at
>   >   >   > present we have
>   >   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a
>   simple
>   >   uphaul
>   >   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   >   > > likely.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated
that
>   way.
>   >   In
>   >   >   > fact they cant
>   >   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back
up
>   over
>   >   the
>   >   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no
need
>   to go
>   >   out
>   >   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated
towards
>   the
>   >   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > Mark
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > *************************
>   >   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the
aft
>   end
>   >   of
>   >   >   the
>   >   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
>   located.
>   >   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as
>   desired
>   >   for
>   >   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on
a
>   paw
>   >   gear.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can
either
>   be
>   >   rack
>   >   >   and
>   >   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want
torque
>   a
>   >   worm
>   >   >   > gear.
>   >   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in
the
>   water
>   >   and
>   >   >   it
>   >   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a
loop
>   in
>   >   the
>   >   >   > handle
>   >   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop
the
>   >   rudder
>   >   >   in
>   >   >   > the
>   >   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the
>   ratchet
>   >   handle
>   >   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet
>   handle
>   >   with a
>   >   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.
But
>   >   trying to
>   >   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment
freedom,
>   but
>   >   >   would
>   >   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial
up
>   >   positions
>   >   >   to
>   >   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy
>   operation
>   >   >   other
>   >   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of
>   design
>   >   this
>   >   >   > seems
>   >   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is
an
>   >   essential
>   >   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the
>   rudders
>   >   >   > themselves
>   >   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it
>   will be
>   >   >   > connected
>   >   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were
moved
>   to
>   >   >   beneath
>   >   >   > the
>   >   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler
affair.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the
visionarry
>   >   rudders
>   >   >   with
>   >   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >   JT
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > > ------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----
>   >   >   --
>   >   >   > ----------
>   >   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:
>   >   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >   > >
>   >   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
>   Yahoo!
>   >   Terms
>   >   >   of
>   >   >   > Service.
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   >
>   >   > ------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   ----------
>   >   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   >
>   >   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   >
>   >   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   >
>   >   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
>   Terms of
>   >   Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:05 AM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift

Thanks Rob,
Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the uphaul, provided it
is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg downhaul.
My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of the blade
passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of the cheek
round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying off at a
point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This would allow
lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no matter
what angle  the blades are facing,
Robert

-- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of water they
displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift, but the
potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to their
lowest
>   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades,
fully
>   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
>   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them down
to
>   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to lift
them
>   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight the
>   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
>   Robert
>
>
>
>   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be even
>   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on the
>   next update.
>   >
>   > Regards
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders
raking
>   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
>   loads.
>   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
>   doesn't
>   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate
the
>   arm
>   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a
kick up
>   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and
>   have
>   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
>   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the
>   thought
>   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth
and
>   so
>   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I
don't
>   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of
the
>   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
>   advantage
>   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks
>   should
>   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
>   getting
>   >   it down.
>   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5
from
>   the
>   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck
then
>   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
engineering
>   and a
>   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't
need
>   to
>   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and
able
>   to
>   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot
work. 
>   >   Don't
>   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options
are
>   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >   >
>   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side
load
>   >   against
>   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
>   solutions. 
>   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option
looks
>   >   better
>   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
components
>   or
>   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide
the
>   >   details
>   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship"
order.
>   >   >
>   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >   >
>   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat
as it
>   >   gave
>   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin
>   pins
>   >   for
>   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that
badly
>   and
>   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we
only
>   need
>   >   to
>   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal
>   capstan
>   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower
>   start
>   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add
a
>   cam
>   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up
long
>   >   enough
>   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop. 
Have an
>   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line
can be
>   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >
>   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
>   >   purchase
>   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side
for
>   >   even
>   >   > more power.
>   >   >
>   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases
>   angle
>   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the
rudder
>   is
>   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in
report
>   7
>   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when
closest. 
>   >   That
>   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
>   >   direction
>   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >
>   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset
>   purchase
>   >   be
>   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design. 
>   Would
>   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in
electronic
>   >   form
>   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >
>   >   > Regards,
>   >   >
>   >   > JT
>   >   >
>   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   > wrote:
>   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas
of
>   >   coarse
>   >   > and many more,
>   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most 
needs
>   can be
>   >   > overcome with
>   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep
it
>   simple
>   >   > and cheap for
>   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use
of
>   >   metals.
>   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to
reduce
>   >   > friction which
>   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any
more
>   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but
at
>   >   > present we have
>   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a
simple
>   uphaul
>   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   > > likely.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that
way.
>   In
>   >   > fact they cant
>   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up
over
>   the
>   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need
to go
>   out
>   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards
the
>   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Mark
>   >   > >
>   >   > > *************************
>   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft
end
>   of
>   >   the
>   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
located. 
>   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as
desired
>   for
>   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a
paw
>   gear.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either
be
>   rack
>   >   and
>   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque
a
>   worm
>   >   > gear.
>   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the
water
>   and
>   >   it
>   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop
in
>   the
>   >   > handle
>   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
>   rudder
>   >   in
>   >   > the
>   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the
ratchet
>   handle
>   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet
handle
>   with a
>   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But
>   trying to
>   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom,
but
>   >   would
>   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
>   positions
>   >   to
>   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy
operation
>   >   other
>   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of
design
>   this
>   >   > seems
>   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
>   essential
>   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the
rudders
>   >   > themselves
>   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it
will be
>   >   > connected
>   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved
to
>   >   beneath
>   >   > the
>   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry
>   rudders
>   >   with
>   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   JT
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   --
>   >   > ----------
>   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
>   Terms
>   >   of
>   >   > Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >      
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >      
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>      
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>      
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Thanks Rob,
  Therefore no mechanical advantage needed for the uphaul, provided it
is in a convenient place, and between 1kg and 3kg downhaul.
My thoughts are: having the uphaul at the leading edge of the blade
passing through a cam cleat on top of the leading edge of the cheek
round a bearing surface at the axis of the pintles and tying off at a
point on the crossbeam slighlty lw of the rudders. This would allow
lifting the rudders, and also being able to release them, no matter
what angle  the blades are facing,
Robert

-- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> What I mean is that the boards are 66% the weight of water they
displace.  Approx.  They weigh 25 kgs, not a difficult lift, but the
potential to be tricky in a seaway.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to their
lowest
>   point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades,
fully
>   immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
>   position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them down
to
>   counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to lift
them
>   out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight the
>   effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
>   Robert
>
>
>
>   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...>
wrote:
>   > G'day,
>   >
>   > Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be even
>   lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on the
>   next update.
>   >
>   > Regards
>   >
>   > Rob
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Robert
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders
raking
>   >   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
>   loads.
>   >   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
>   doesn't
>   >   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate
the
>   arm
>   >   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a
kick up
>   >   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and
>   have
>   >   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
>   >   understandable but not immediately.
>   >   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the
>   thought
>   >   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth
and
>   so
>   >   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I
don't
>   >   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of
the
>   >   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
>   advantage
>   >   to pull it down should be enough.
>   >   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks
>   should
>   >   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
>   getting
>   >   it down.
>   >   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5
from
>   the
>   >   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck
then
>   >   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple
engineering
>   and a
>   >   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't
need
>   to
>   >   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and
able
>   to
>   >   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
>   <jtaylor412@c...>
>   >   wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot
work.
>   >   Don't
>   >   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options
are
>   >   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >   >
>   >   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side
load
>   >   against
>   >   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
>   solutions.
>   >   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option
looks
>   >   better
>   >   > for certain critical applications you can offer the
components
>   or
>   >   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide
the
>   >   details
>   >   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship"
order.
>   >   >
>   >   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >   >
>   >   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat
as it
>   >   gave
>   >   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin
>   pins
>   >   for
>   >   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that
badly
>   and
>   >   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we
only
>   need
>   >   to
>   >   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal
>   capstan
>   >   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower
>   start
>   >   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add
a
>   cam
>   >   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up
long
>   >   enough
>   >   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.
Have an
>   >   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line
can be
>   >   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >   >
>   >   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
>   >   purchase
>   >   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side
for
>   >   even
>   >   > more power.
>   >   >
>   >   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases
>   angle
>   >   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the
rudder
>   is
>   >   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in
report
>   7
>   >   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when
closest.
>   >   That
>   >   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
>   >   direction
>   >   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >   >
>   >   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset
>   purchase
>   >   be
>   >   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.
>   Would
>   >   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in
electronic
>   >   form
>   >   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >   >
>   >   > Regards,
>   >   >
>   >   > JT
>   >   >
>   >   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   >   <stephens@o...>
>   >   > wrote:
>   >   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas
of
>   >   coarse
>   >   > and many more,
>   >   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most
needs
>   can be
>   >   > overcome with
>   >   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep
it
>   simple
>   >   > and cheap for
>   >   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use
of
>   >   metals.
>   >   > Adding a rack a
>   >   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to
reduce
>   >   > friction which
>   >   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any
more
>   >   > turbulence at the
>   >   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but
at
>   >   > present we have
>   >   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a
simple
>   uphaul
>   >   > or gantry is most
>   >   > > likely.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that
way.
>   In
>   >   > fact they cant
>   >   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up
over
>   the
>   >   > beam. You can just
>   >   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need
to go
>   out
>   >   > onto the leeward
>   >   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards
the
>   >   > beams. The uphaul is
>   >   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > Mark
>   >   > >
>   >   > > *************************
>   >   > > Mark Stephens
>   >   > > www.harryproa.com
>   >   > > stephens@o...
>   >   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   >   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft
end
>   of
>   >   the
>   >   > >   rudder casing.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is
located.
>   >   > Ratchet is
>   >   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as
desired
>   for
>   >   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a
paw
>   gear.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either
be
>   rack
>   >   and
>   >   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque
a
>   worm
>   >   > gear.
>   >   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the
water
>   and
>   >   it
>   >   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop
in
>   the
>   >   > handle
>   >   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
>   rudder
>   >   in
>   >   > the
>   >   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the
ratchet
>   handle
>   >   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet
handle
>   with a
>   >   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But
>   trying to
>   >   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom,
but
>   >   would
>   >   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
>   positions
>   >   to
>   >   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy
operation
>   >   other
>   >   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of
design
>   this
>   >   > seems
>   >   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
>   essential
>   >   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the
rudders
>   >   > themselves
>   >   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it
will be
>   >   > connected
>   >   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved
to
>   >   beneath
>   >   > the
>   >   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry
>   rudders
>   >   with
>   >   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   Rgds,
>   >   > >
>   >   > >   JT
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > >
>   >   > > ----------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----
>   >   --
>   >   > ----------
>   >   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >   > >
>   >   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
Yahoo!
>   Terms
>   >   of
>   >   > Service.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
>   Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:03 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift

Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to their lowest
point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades, fully
immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them down to
counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to lift them
out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight the
effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
Robert



--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be even
lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on the
next update.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
>   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
loads.
>   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
doesn't
>   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the
arm
>   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
>   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and
have
>   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
>   understandable but not immediately.
>   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the
thought
>   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and
so
>   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
>   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
>   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
advantage
>   to pull it down should be enough.
>   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks
should
>   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
getting
>   it down.
>   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from
the
>   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
>   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering
and a
>   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need
to
>   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able
to
>   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>
>
>
>   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
<jtaylor412@c...>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work. 
>   Don't
>   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
>   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >
>   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
>   against
>   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
solutions. 
>   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
>   better
>   > for certain critical applications you can offer the components
or
>   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
>   details
>   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
>   >
>   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >
>   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
>   gave
>   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin
pins
>   for
>   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly
and
>   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only
need
>   to
>   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal
capstan
>   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower
start
>   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a
cam
>   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
>   enough
>   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
>   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
>   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >
>   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
>   purchase
>   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
>   even
>   > more power.
>   >
>   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases
angle
>   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder
is
>   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report
7
>   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest. 
>   That
>   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
>   direction
>   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >
>   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset
purchase
>   be
>   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design. 
Would
>   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
>   form
>   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > JT
>   >
>   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   <stephens@o...>
>   > wrote:
>   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
>   coarse
>   > and many more,
>   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs
can be
>   > overcome with
>   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it
simple
>   > and cheap for
>   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
>   metals.
>   > Adding a rack a
>   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
>   > friction which
>   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
>   > turbulence at the
>   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
>   > present we have
>   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple
uphaul
>   > or gantry is most
>   > > likely.
>   > >
>   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way.
In
>   > fact they cant
>   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over
the
>   > beam. You can just
>   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go
out
>   > onto the leeward
>   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
>   > beams. The uphaul is
>   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   > >
>   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   > >
>   > > Mark
>   > >
>   > > *************************
>   > > Mark Stephens
>   > > www.harryproa.com
>   > > stephens@o...
>   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end
of
>   the
>   > >   rudder casing.
>   > >
>   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located. 
>   > Ratchet is
>   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired
for
>   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw
gear.
>   > >
>   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be
rack
>   and
>   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a
worm
>   > gear.
>   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water
and
>   it
>   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   > >
>   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in
the
>   > handle
>   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
rudder
>   in
>   > the
>   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet
handle
>   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   > >
>   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle
with a
>   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But
trying to
>   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   > >
>   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
>   would
>   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
positions
>   to
>   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
>   other
>   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design
this
>   > seems
>   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
essential
>   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
>   > themselves
>   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
>   > connected
>   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
>   beneath
>   > the
>   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
>   > >
>   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry
rudders
>   with
>   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   > >
>   > >   Rgds,
>   > >
>   > >   JT
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > --------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   --
>   > ----------
>   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > >
>   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   > >
>   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   > >
>   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
>   of
>   > Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>      
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>      
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Is this the amount of effort to push the rudders down to their lowest
point or the actual bouyancy of the blades? ie if the blades, fully
immersed, displaced 150% their weight but in their fully down
position were only 3/4 immersed then the effort to pull them down to
counteract their bouyancy would be only 1/10 the effort to lift them
out of the water, but if they displaced 200% of their weight the
effort to pull them down would be 50% of the lifting effort.
Robert



  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> Buoyancy of the rudders is about 1/3rd.  Next ones will be even
lighter.  We have a lifting system planned, pics should be on the
next update.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Robert
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
>   forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
loads.
>   It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
doesn't
>   seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the
arm
>   needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
>   system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and
have
>   enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
>   understandable but not immediately.
>   I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the
thought
>   that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and
so
>   the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
>   think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
>   fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
advantage
>   to pull it down should be enough.
>   A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks
should
>   also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
getting
>   it down.
>   My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from
the
>   end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
>   through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering
and a
>   5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need
to
>   go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able
to
>   be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>
>
>
>   --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
<jtaylor412@c...>
>   wrote:
>   >
>   > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work.
>   Don't
>   > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
>   > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>   >
>   > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
>   against
>   > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
solutions.
>   > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
>   better
>   > for certain critical applications you can offer the components
or
>   > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
>   details
>   > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
>   >
>   > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>   >
>   > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
>   gave
>   > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin
pins
>   for
>   > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly
and
>   > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only
need
>   to
>   > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal
capstan
>   > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower
start
>   > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a
cam
>   > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
>   enough
>   > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
>   > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
>   > removed when the lift is complete.
>   >
>   > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
>   purchase
>   > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
>   even
>   > more power.
>   >
>   > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases
angle
>   > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder
is
>   > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report
7
>   > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest.
>   That
>   > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
>   direction
>   > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>   >
>   > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset
purchase
>   be
>   > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.
Would
>   > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
>   form
>   > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > JT
>   >
>   > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   <stephens@o...>
>   > wrote:
>   > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
>   coarse
>   > and many more,
>   > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs
can be
>   > overcome with
>   > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it
simple
>   > and cheap for
>   > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
>   metals.
>   > Adding a rack a
>   > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
>   > friction which
>   > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
>   > turbulence at the
>   > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
>   > present we have
>   > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple
uphaul
>   > or gantry is most
>   > > likely.
>   > >
>   > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way.
In
>   > fact they cant
>   > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over
the
>   > beam. You can just
>   > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go
out
>   > onto the leeward
>   > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
>   > beams. The uphaul is
>   > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
>   > >
>   > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
>   > >
>   > > Mark
>   > >
>   > > *************************
>   > > Mark Stephens
>   > > www.harryproa.com
>   > > stephens@o...
>   > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   > >   ----- Original Message -----
>   > >   From: jjtctaylor
>   > >   To: harryproa@...
>   > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end
of
>   the
>   > >   rudder casing.
>   > >
>   > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.
>   > Ratchet is
>   > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired
for
>   > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw
gear.
>   > >
>   > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be
rack
>   and
>   > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a
worm
>   > gear.
>   > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water
and
>   it
>   > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>   > >
>   > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in
the
>   > handle
>   > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
rudder
>   in
>   > the
>   > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet
handle
>   > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
>   > >
>   > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle
with a
>   > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But
trying to
>   > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>   > >
>   > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
>   would
>   > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
positions
>   to
>   > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
>   other
>   > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design
this
>   > seems
>   > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
essential
>   > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
>   > themselves
>   > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
>   > connected
>   > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
>   beneath
>   > the
>   > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
>   > >
>   > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry
rudders
>   with
>   > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
>   > >
>   > >   Rgds,
>   > >
>   > >   JT
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > --------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   --
>   > ----------
>   > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > >
>   > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   > >
>   > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   > >
>   > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
>   of
>   > Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 1:09 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Elementarry Update

G'day
Studying the pictures of Elementarry sailing: either you are going
very slowly or the hulls are very efficient, as there is no
discernible wake or bow wave. Also the aft sail when the lw hull is
to port doesnt seem to be doing very much work. Leach too loose or a
lower batten too tight and upper ones a bit loose?
Are those surfers in the background on the beach shot?
Looking forward to next installment when a few more bugs have been
sorted out.
Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 1:41 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Lift

From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller loads.
It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there doesn't
seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the arm
needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and have
enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
understandable but not immediately.
I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the thought
that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and so
the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical advantage
to pull it down should be enough.
A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks should
also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of getting
it down.
My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from the
end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering and a
5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need to
go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able to
be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.



--- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@c...>
wrote:
>
> Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work. 
Don't
> know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
> possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>
> I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
against
> the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered solutions. 
> Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
better
> for certain critical applications you can offer the components or
> assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
details
> to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
>
> You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>
> Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
gave
> the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin pins
for
> the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly and
> still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only need
to
> raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal capstan
> method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower start
> cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a cam
> cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
enough
> to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
> eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
> removed when the lift is complete.
>
> Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
purchase
> power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
even
> more power.
>
> One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases angle
> toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder is
> rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report 7
> seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest. 
That
> appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
direction
> of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>
> How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset purchase
be
> amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.  Would
> make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
form
> for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>
> Regards,
>
> JT
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
coarse
> and many more,
> > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs can be
> overcome with
> > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it simple
> and cheap for
> > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
metals.
> Adding a rack a
> > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
> friction which
> > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
> turbulence at the
> > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
> present we have
> > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple uphaul
> or gantry is most
> > likely.
> >
> > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way. In
> fact they cant
> > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over the
> beam. You can just
> > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go out
> onto the leeward
> > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
> beams. The uphaul is
> > mainly needed for those with back problems.
> >
> > Keep the ideas rolling in.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > *************************
> > Mark Stephens
> > www.harryproa.com
> > stephens@o...
> > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: jjtctaylor
> >   To: harryproa@...
> >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
> >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
> >
> >
> >
> >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of
the
> >   rudder casing.
> >
> >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located. 
> Ratchet is
> >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired for
> >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw gear.
> >
> >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack
and
> >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a worm
> gear.
> >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water and
it
> >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
> >
> >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in the
> handle
> >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the rudder
in
> the
> >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet handle
> >   and/or lift the cam lock.
> >
> >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with a
> >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying to
> >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
> >
> >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
would
> >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up positions
to
> >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
other
> >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this
> seems
> >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an essential
> >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
> themselves
> >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
> connected
> >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
beneath
> the
> >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
> >
> >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders
with
> >   the full sized design after sea trials.
> >
> >   Rgds,
> >
> >   JT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> Service.

G'day
Studying the pictures of Elementarry sailing: either you are going
very slowly or the hulls are very efficient, as there is no
discernible wake or bow wave. Also the aft sail when the lw hull is
to port doesnt seem to be doing very much work. Leach too loose or a
lower batten too tight and upper ones a bit loose?
Are those surfers in the background on the beach shot?
Looking forward to next installment when a few more bugs have been
sorted out.
Robert

From what I can glean , the rudderblade and back of the case releases
so completely that the blade flutters free with nowhere to apply any
further torque. I have wondered if it could possibly jamb between the
remainder  of the case and  the crossbeam but I considered the toques
and I can't see a problem unless sailing directly down wind (where
you could lift it before sailing through shoal waters) and even then
you'd have to be unlucky. It could still be freed by jiggling the
tiller.  Crash protection could be applied to the edge of the
crossbeam and be designed to deflect the blade from jambing.

--- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@c...>
wrote:
>
>
> With whatever method, there remains the challenge of securing the
> rudder in the desired elevation.  I do not like ratchets or ropes
> being that device.  My guess is they are pinned today.  That
> methodology still requires someone to get down and personal with
that
> rudder.  Not a pretty picture in poor weather.


It is still possible to use a spring loaded pin system controlled
from the cockpit


>
> May have to wait and see what comes out of the trials before moving
> forward with these types of operational issues.  Those rudders have
> to take a tremendous amount of loads, so will be interesting on a
> visionarry to see what happens.  May be rework of other issues
before
> they choose to take on this.  Hope Mark's pins on the casings work
as
> advertised.  I will be sailing off the US Carolinas and they are
> notorious for shifting bars.  The impact will drive the rudder up
and
> shear it horizontally as well.  Grounding is common in this region
as
> hurricanes do their work to redefine the sea bottom.
>
> JT
> --- In harryproa@..., "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
> > forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
> loads.
> > It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
> doesn't
> > seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the
arm
> > needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
> > system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and
have
> > enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
> > understandable but not immediately.
> > I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the
thought
> > that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and
so
> > the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
> > think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
> > fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical
advantage
> > to pull it down should be enough.
> > A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks
should
> > also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
> getting
> > it down.
> > My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from
the
> > end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
> > through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering
and
> a
> > 5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need
to
> > go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able
> to
> > be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor"
<jtaylor412@c...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work.
> > Don't
> > > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
> > > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
> > >
> > > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
> > against
> > > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
> solutions.
> > > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
> > better
> > > for certain critical applications you can offer the components
or
> > > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
> > details
> > > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
> > >
> > > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
> > >
> > > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
> > gave
> > > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin
pins
> > for
> > > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly
and
> > > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only
> need
> > to
> > > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal
capstan
> > > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower
start
> > > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a
cam
> > > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
> > enough
> > > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
> > > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
> > > removed when the lift is complete.
> > >
> > > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
> > purchase
> > > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
> > even
> > > more power.
> > >
> > > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases
angle
> > > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder
> is
> > > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report
7
> > > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest.
> > That
> > > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
> > direction
> > > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
> > >
> > > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset
purchase
> > be
> > > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.
Would
> > > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
> > form
> > > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > JT
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
> > <stephens@o...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
> > coarse
> > > and many more,
> > > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs
can
> be
> > > overcome with
> > > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it
> simple
> > > and cheap for
> > > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
> > metals.
> > > Adding a rack a
> > > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
> > > friction which
> > > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
> > > turbulence at the
> > > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
> > > present we have
> > > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple
> uphaul
> > > or gantry is most
> > > > likely.
> > > >
> > > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way.
> In
> > > fact they cant
> > > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over
> the
> > > beam. You can just
> > > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go
> out
> > > onto the leeward
> > > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
> > > beams. The uphaul is
> > > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
> > > >
> > > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > *************************
> > > > Mark Stephens
> > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > stephens@o...
> > > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > >   From: jjtctaylor
> > > >   To: harryproa@...
> > > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
> > > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end
of
> > the
> > > >   rudder casing.
> > > >
> > > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.
> > > Ratchet is
> > > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired
> for
> > > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw
> gear.
> > > >
> > > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be
rack
> > and
> > > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a
> worm
> > > gear.
> > > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water
> and
> > it
> > > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
> > > >
> > > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in
> the
> > > handle
> > > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
> rudder
> > in
> > > the
> > > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet
> handle
> > > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
> > > >
> > > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle
with
> a
> > > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But
trying
> to
> > > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
> > > >
> > > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
> > would
> > > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
> positions
> > to
> > > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
> > other
> > > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design
this
> > > seems
> > > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
> essential
> > > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
> > > themselves
> > > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
> > > connected
> > > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
> > beneath
> > > the
> > > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
> > > >
> > > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry
rudders
> > with
> > > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
> > > >
> > > >   Rgds,
> > > >
> > > >   JT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > --
> > > ----------
> > > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> > > >
> > > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > > >
> > > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms
> > of
> > > Service.

With whatever method, there remains the challenge of securing the
rudder in the desired elevation.  I do not like ratchets or ropes
being that device.  My guess is they are pinned today.  That
methodology still requires someone to get down and personal with that
rudder.  Not a pretty picture in poor weather.

May have to wait and see what comes out of the trials before moving
forward with these types of operational issues.  Those rudders have
to take a tremendous amount of loads, so will be interesting on a
visionarry to see what happens.  May be rework of other issues before
they choose to take on this.  Hope Mark's pins on the casings work as
advertised.  I will be sailing off the US Carolinas and they are
notorious for shifting bars.  The impact will drive the rudder up and
shear it horizontally as well.  Grounding is common in this region as
hurricanes do their work to redefine the sea bottom.

JT
--- In harryproa@..., "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
wrote:
>
> From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
> forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller
loads.
> It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there
doesn't
> seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the arm
> needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
> system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and have
> enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
> understandable but not immediately.
> I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the thought
> that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and so
> the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
> think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
> fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical advantage
> to pull it down should be enough.
> A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks should
> also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of
getting
> it down.
> My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from the
> end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
> through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering and
a
> 5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need to
> go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able
to
> be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@c...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work.
> Don't
> > know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
> > possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
> >
> > I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
> against
> > the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered
solutions.
> > Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
> better
> > for certain critical applications you can offer the components or
> > assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
> details
> > to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
> >
> > You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
> >
> > Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
> gave
> > the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin pins
> for
> > the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly and
> > still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only
need
> to
> > raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal capstan
> > method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower start
> > cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a cam
> > cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
> enough
> > to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
> > eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
> > removed when the lift is complete.
> >
> > Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
> purchase
> > power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
> even
> > more power.
> >
> > One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases angle
> > toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder
is
> > rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report 7
> > seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest.
> That
> > appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
> direction
> > of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
> >
> > How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset purchase
> be
> > amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.  Would
> > make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
> form
> > for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > JT
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
> <stephens@o...>
> > wrote:
> > > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
> coarse
> > and many more,
> > > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs can
be
> > overcome with
> > > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it
simple
> > and cheap for
> > > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
> metals.
> > Adding a rack a
> > > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
> > friction which
> > > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
> > turbulence at the
> > > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
> > present we have
> > > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple
uphaul
> > or gantry is most
> > > likely.
> > >
> > > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way.
In
> > fact they cant
> > > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over
the
> > beam. You can just
> > > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go
out
> > onto the leeward
> > > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
> > beams. The uphaul is
> > > mainly needed for those with back problems.
> > >
> > > Keep the ideas rolling in.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > *************************
> > > Mark Stephens
> > > www.harryproa.com
> > > stephens@o...
> > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: jjtctaylor
> > >   To: harryproa@...
> > >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
> > >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of
> the
> > >   rudder casing.
> > >
> > >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.
> > Ratchet is
> > >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired
for
> > >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw
gear.
> > >
> > >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack
> and
> > >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a
worm
> > gear.
> > >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water
and
> it
> > >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
> > >
> > >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in
the
> > handle
> > >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the
rudder
> in
> > the
> > >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet
handle
> > >   and/or lift the cam lock.
> > >
> > >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with
a
> > >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying
to
> > >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
> > >
> > >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
> would
> > >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up
positions
> to
> > >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
> other
> > >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this
> > seems
> > >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an
essential
> > >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
> > themselves
> > >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
> > connected
> > >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
> beneath
> > the
> > >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
> > >
> > >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders
> with
> > >   the full sized design after sea trials.
> > >
> > >   Rgds,
> > >
> > >   JT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> > ----------
> > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> > >
> > >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
> of
> > Service.

G'day,

I have not had time to follow this thread, but can answer the following:

The Visionarry plan set is not complete.  All the missing details are waiting
until we have sailed the first one and can confirm that what we have done is
correct.  We are staying ahead of the builders who all have full plans for
whatever stage they are up to.

If you buy a set of plans, you will not only get the updates, and the changes,
you can also trade them at a later date for the plans for another boat, or use
them as the basis for a customised design.  We prefer to send things
electronically, but can also send them by post.  Printing and postage for
additional drawings are charged for if they are sent by post.

All the design work is done in Rhino or Maxsurf, then printed as a pdf.   You
can also get 20 "Saves" in the demo version of Rhino, which should get most of
your ideas across.  Rhino is cheap if you get it via a student.

Regards,

Rob>
> How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset purchase be
>
> amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.  Would
>
> make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic form
>
> for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> JT
>
>

G'day,
> Congratulations on getting sailing without any fundamental problems.
>
> Controlled shunting, easy control and reasonable pointing is a good
>
> basis. I am suprised you didn't think of the floating rudders

So were we!  Actually, it was more a case of doing things in a rush, than
actually thinking about them.
>
>
>
>
>
> Did you really think you could get a brand new design sorted out with
>
> only a couple of days after getting it wet for the first time?

Hell, yes!  After all, I never have before.  :-)
>
> It is good to see a bit of destruction testing for learning where
>
> things need to be made strongeror and quality control stricter. 40
>
> tows is a fair bit of strength in a mast of that size.

Certainly is.  We repaired it and bent it again just to see what would happen.
Broke at the other end of the missing tows.  Every break tells us somethingf
else about what makes them work.
>
>
>
> Having the testing announced before hand certainly makes it difficult
>
> to gloss over any problems. A lot different from drug trials where
>
> they only publish the positive findings. The openness gives me more
>
> confidence in the final product.

Good to hear, as I get a fair bit of stick for not announcing things we are
doing before they are proven.>
>
>
> A few questions
>
>
>
> Does this destruction testing change any of the design parameters for
>
> the bigger boats?

No, although the schooner rig is certainly neat.  No idea how it performs yet,
but the shunting was very easy, even with Mark learning the ropes on the
rudders.
>
>
>
>
>
>  You mentioned the surf. Did you get a sense of how it handled waves
>
> and how it would handle surf?

Really well, I think.  It was very easy to hold it head to waves, and when we
sheeted on, it just went.  The schooner rig meant it could be controlled with a
lot less rudder than the Easyrig.

I guess it is too early to test whether
>
> to point high and slam shunt or bear away and be more gentle.

Way too early!
>
> I bet you're glad the report wasn't as entertaining as Wade's in the
>
> proa file.

Wade is slowly coming around to a harry, but is making a lot of hard work of
the journey from a ply and polytarp "traditional type" proa.  I may write the
entertaining version of learning mast making sometime.  It is every bit as
amusing as Wade's sailing story.

Regards,

Rob


>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      -- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>
> <stephens@o...> wrote:
>
> > G'day,
>
> >
>
> >  Sorry, this got lost in the ether.  Should have been posted 2 days
>
> ago.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A quick note on the launching.
>
> >
>
> > For all the usual reasons the boat was not quite complete when I
>
> arrived here
>
> > from Perth.  Didn't stop it looking very quick, and a few pushes
>
> with my knee
>
> > convinced me it was plenty stiff enough.  I also looked at the
>
> beams and hulls
>
> > of number 2 and they are very well built as well.  On the down
>
> side, we agreed
>
> > the rudder frames looked marginal, they had only been finished the
>
> day before. 
>
> > We spent the day putting on the tramp and fitting the cradles to
>
> > the trailer.  We also had our first look at the sails, and at first
>
> glance
>
> > tentatively decided the masts were too stiff or the sails had
>
> insufficient luff
>
> > curve.  We did some bend tests on the masts, including a 100 kg
>
> load between
>
> > head and boom end. 
>
> >
>
> > Next day, took it down the beach.  Wind 10-15 knots, direction
>
> about 45 degrees
>
> > off directly onshore.  Undid the straps on the ww hull, lifted it
>
> up and slid
>
> > the masts into the lw hull which was in cradles on a pivot.  Pushed
>
> the masts
>
> > in, and slid the sails over the masts.  Took less than 5 minutes. 
>
> Putting in
>
> > the battens, playing with the sail shapes and measuring and buying
>
> the running
>
> > rigging took the next 90.  We then flipped it up, and telescoped
>
> the hulls. 
>
> > Took another couple of minutes.  Because there was a bit of surf
>
> running, three
>
> > of us picked it up and carried it into the water.   Getting through
>
> the surf
>
> > was easy enough, I held the front, Mark got the rudders down (the
>
> blades
>
> > floated, so the tie down clam cleats didn't work), I clambered on,
>
> sheeted on
>
> > and off we went. 
>
> >
>
> > The trampoline stretched as the knots tightened up, so I was
>
> sitting in the
>
> > water, close to the lw hull, Mark was perched on the windward hull.
>
> > Acceleration was good, first shunt was after about 100m, before we
>
> hit a
>
> > wharf.   Bit of confusion as Mark had both tillers (no lock for the
>
> front one,
>
> > and I pulled in the aft sail instead of the fore sail. The battens
>
> were most
>
> > reluctant to flop over, but some violent boom pulling did the
>
> trick.   A deep
>
> > breath, some instructions and off we went.  Next shunt in 200m
>
> before we hit a
>
> > rock wall.  
>
> > Came hard on the wind and may have cleared it, but sanity prevailed
>
> and we
>
> > shunted about 20 m before we hit it.  Mainsheets in the water, but
>
> otherwise
>
> > pretty smooth.  Back to the jetty, effortless shunt.  Back to the
>
> rock wall,
>
> > effortless shunt.  Cleared the end of the jetty, bore away a
>
> little, and up
>
> > came the windward hull.  Eased sheet, Mark luffed, down it came. 
>
> Some ominous
>
> > cracks from the rudder areas.  Sailed across to the other side of
>
> the bay, a
>
> > few more hull flies, and noises, then we noticed the rudder frames
>
> coming
>
> > apart,
>
> > so decided enough was enough.  Sailed ddw back to the shore. 
>
> >
>
> > Max speed?  gps was in my bag, so no idea.  Quick, with potential
>
> to be
>
> > quicker.  Tacking angle?  No idea, not great, but this was nothing
>
> to do with
>
> > the rig or the boat.  Schooner?  No idea re performance, but
>
> shunting is a
>
> > dream.  Potential?  Huge.
>
> >
>
> > Put it on the trailer and was ready to go home in 30 minutes, much
>
> of which was
>
> > spent chatting to incredulous onlookers and tying on gear which
>
> will eventually
>
> > have cradles/boxes to sit in.
>
> >
>
> > Next day, Mark beefed up the rudder frames, I assembled a rig on
>
> the grass to
>
> > try and sort out the battens.  I (80 kgs)stood on the mast to get
>
> some prebend
>
> > and tighten up the battens.  Then picked up the boom rotated it
>
> through 90
>
> > degrees and dropped it to my knees then lifted it to about my chest
>
> as hard as
>
> > I could.  Very small force compared to what we had tested and
>
> sailed with, and
>
> > nothing compared to my efforts on the water the day before.  The
>
> battens
>
> > floated across beautifully.  Initial euphoria turned sour when we
>
> saw the mast
>
> > had a kink in it.  Took it out and it had broken, a classic
>
> compression
>
> > collapse on the aft side. 
>
> >
>
> > We cut the broken section out for inspection and the walls looked
>
> pretty thin. 
>
> > We then went back through the laminating records and discovered
>
> that 40 tows
>
> > had been skipped in this area.  On the bright side, the laminate
>
> was very well
>
> > compacted and even.  The failure was caused by lousy quality
>
> control
>
> > (disappointing, but not too  surprising at this stage of the rushed
>
> process),
>
> > the engineering was fine, and the actual construction technique a
>
> success.
>
> >
>
> > So, cancel the Bridge to Bridge race this weekend.  We will build
>
> another mast
>
> > over the weekend and test it on Monday.  Not sure if we will get to
>
> Wangi for
>
> > the trailerable Nationals, anyone contemplating a visit should ring
>
> Mark first.
>
> > 
>
> > Our apologies to anyone who has made plans to visit either Grafton
>
> or Wangi to
>
> > see the boat. 
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> >
>
> > Rob and Mark
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > *************************
>
> > Mark Stephens
>
> > www.harryproa.com
>
> > stephens@o...
>
> > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>  
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Congratulations on getting sailing without any fundamental problems.
Controlled shunting, easy control and reasonable pointing is a good
basis. I am suprised you didn't think of the floating rudders


Did you really think you could get a brand new design sorted out with
only a couple of days after getting it wet for the first time?
It is good to see a bit of destruction testing for learning where
things need to be made strongeror and quality control stricter. 40
tows is a fair bit of strength in a mast of that size.

Having the testing announced before hand certainly makes it difficult
to gloss over any problems. A lot different from drug trials where
they only publish the positive findings. The openness gives me more
confidence in the final product.

A few questions

Does this destruction testing change any of the design parameters for
the bigger boats?


  You mentioned the surf. Did you get a sense of how it handled waves
and how it would handle surf? I guess it is too early to test whether
to point high and slam shunt or bear away and be more gentle.
I bet you're glad the report wasn't as entertaining as Wade's in the
proa file.
Robert



      -- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
>  Sorry, this got lost in the ether.  Should have been posted 2 days
ago.
>
>
>
> A quick note on the launching.
>
> For all the usual reasons the boat was not quite complete when I
arrived here
> from Perth.  Didn't stop it looking very quick, and a few pushes
with my knee
> convinced me it was plenty stiff enough.  I also looked at the
beams and hulls
> of number 2 and they are very well built as well.  On the down
side, we agreed
> the rudder frames looked marginal, they had only been finished the
day before.
> We spent the day putting on the tramp and fitting the cradles to
> the trailer.  We also had our first look at the sails, and at first
glance
> tentatively decided the masts were too stiff or the sails had
insufficient luff
> curve.  We did some bend tests on the masts, including a 100 kg
load between
> head and boom end.
>
> Next day, took it down the beach.  Wind 10-15 knots, direction
about 45 degrees
> off directly onshore.  Undid the straps on the ww hull, lifted it
up and slid
> the masts into the lw hull which was in cradles on a pivot.  Pushed
the masts
> in, and slid the sails over the masts.  Took less than 5 minutes.
Putting in
> the battens, playing with the sail shapes and measuring and buying
the running
> rigging took the next 90.  We then flipped it up, and telescoped
the hulls.
> Took another couple of minutes.  Because there was a bit of surf
running, three
> of us picked it up and carried it into the water.   Getting through
the surf
> was easy enough, I held the front, Mark got the rudders down (the
blades
> floated, so the tie down clam cleats didn't work), I clambered on,
sheeted on
> and off we went.
>
> The trampoline stretched as the knots tightened up, so I was
sitting in the
> water, close to the lw hull, Mark was perched on the windward hull.
> Acceleration was good, first shunt was after about 100m, before we
hit a
> wharf.   Bit of confusion as Mark had both tillers (no lock for the
front one,
> and I pulled in the aft sail instead of the fore sail. The battens
were most
> reluctant to flop over, but some violent boom pulling did the
trick.   A deep
> breath, some instructions and off we went.  Next shunt in 200m
before we hit a
> rock wall.
> Came hard on the wind and may have cleared it, but sanity prevailed
and we
> shunted about 20 m before we hit it.  Mainsheets in the water, but
otherwise
> pretty smooth.  Back to the jetty, effortless shunt.  Back to the
rock wall,
> effortless shunt.  Cleared the end of the jetty, bore away a
little, and up
> came the windward hull.  Eased sheet, Mark luffed, down it came.
Some ominous
> cracks from the rudder areas.  Sailed across to the other side of
the bay, a
> few more hull flies, and noises, then we noticed the rudder frames
coming
> apart,
> so decided enough was enough.  Sailed ddw back to the shore.
>
> Max speed?  gps was in my bag, so no idea.  Quick, with potential
to be
> quicker.  Tacking angle?  No idea, not great, but this was nothing
to do with
> the rig or the boat.  Schooner?  No idea re performance, but
shunting is a
> dream.  Potential?  Huge.
>
> Put it on the trailer and was ready to go home in 30 minutes, much
of which was
> spent chatting to incredulous onlookers and tying on gear which
will eventually
> have cradles/boxes to sit in.
>
> Next day, Mark beefed up the rudder frames, I assembled a rig on
the grass to
> try and sort out the battens.  I (80 kgs)stood on the mast to get
some prebend
> and tighten up the battens.  Then picked up the boom rotated it
through 90
> degrees and dropped it to my knees then lifted it to about my chest
as hard as
> I could.  Very small force compared to what we had tested and
sailed with, and
> nothing compared to my efforts on the water the day before.  The
battens
> floated across beautifully.  Initial euphoria turned sour when we
saw the mast
> had a kink in it.  Took it out and it had broken, a classic
compression
> collapse on the aft side.
>
> We cut the broken section out for inspection and the walls looked
pretty thin.
> We then went back through the laminating records and discovered
that 40 tows
> had been skipped in this area.  On the bright side, the laminate
was very well
> compacted and even.  The failure was caused by lousy quality
control
> (disappointing, but not too  surprising at this stage of the rushed
process),
> the engineering was fine, and the actual construction technique a
success.
>
> So, cancel the Bridge to Bridge race this weekend.  We will build
another mast
> over the weekend and test it on Monday.  Not sure if we will get to
Wangi for
> the trailerable Nationals, anyone contemplating a visit should ring
Mark first.
>
> Our apologies to anyone who has made plans to visit either Grafton
or Wangi to
> see the boat.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob and Mark
>
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016

Great. I'll probably come by sometime this week.

> Thanks for the update.  Would have been fun in 30 knots!  We
should be sailing
> again later this week.  Looks like the boat is staying in Urunga
for a while,
> so drop in and arrange a sail sometime.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
> Quoting ljc_87au <ljc_87au@h...>:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Probably a good thing you didnt make it to harwood. The saturday
> >
> > race was in a gusty 30kt norwester. F18 cats mixed up with
sabots,
> >
> > big monos, trailer sailers, lasers and the odd dilapidated
maricat
> >
> > made for some interesting "racing". long story short, a few
extra
> >
> > tinnies had to be borrowed for all the extra recues and probably
not
> >
> > ideal proa testing conditions. Todays race started in light
winds
> >
> > against a roaring tide. I didn't see how it ended. Maybe come
for a
> >
> > race with the A class cats at the urunga club when things are
sorted
> >
> > out, high tide only unless you can sail with rudders kicked up
> >
> > occasionly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Leon Close.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > G'day,
> >
> > >
> >
> > >  Sorry, this got lost in the ether.  Should have been posted 2
> >
> > days ago.
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > A quick note on the launching.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > For all the usual reasons the boat was not quite complete when
I
> >
> > arrived here
> >
> > > from Perth.  Didn't stop it looking very quick, and a few
pushes
> >
> > with my knee
> >
> > > convinced me it was plenty stiff enough.  I also looked at the
> >
> > beams and hulls
> >
> > > of number 2 and they are very well built as well.  On the down
> >
> > side, we agreed
> >
> > > the rudder frames looked marginal, they had only been finished
the
> >
> > day before. 
> >
> > > We spent the day putting on the tramp and fitting the cradles
to
> >
> > > the trailer.  We also had our first look at the sails, and at
> >
> > first glance
> >
> > > tentatively decided the masts were too stiff or the sails had
> >
> > insufficient luff
> >
> > > curve.  We did some bend tests on the masts, including a 100
kg
> >
> > load between
> >
> > > head and boom end. 
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Next day, took it down the beach.  Wind 10-15 knots, direction
> >
> > about 45 degrees
> >
> > > off directly onshore.  Undid the straps on the ww hull, lifted
it
> >
> > up and slid
> >
> > > the masts into the lw hull which was in cradles on a pivot. 
> >
> > Pushed the masts
> >
> > > in, and slid the sails over the masts.  Took less than 5
minutes. 
> >
> > Putting in
> >
> > > the battens, playing with the sail shapes and measuring and
buying
> >
> > the running
> >
> > > rigging took the next 90.  We then flipped it up, and
telescoped
> >
> > the hulls. 
> >
> > > Took another couple of minutes.  Because there was a bit of
surf
> >
> > running, three
> >
> > > of us picked it up and carried it into the water.   Getting
> >
> > through the surf
> >
> > > was easy enough, I held the front, Mark got the rudders down
(the
> >
> > blades
> >
> > > floated, so the tie down clam cleats didn't work), I clambered
on,
> >
> > sheeted on
> >
> > > and off we went. 
> >
> > >
> >
> > > The trampoline stretched as the knots tightened up, so I was
> >
> > sitting in the
> >
> > > water, close to the lw hull, Mark was perched on the windward
> >
> > hull.
> >
> > > Acceleration was good, first shunt was after about 100m,
before we
> >
> > hit a
> >
> > > wharf.   Bit of confusion as Mark had both tillers (no lock
for
> >
> > the front one,
> >
> > > and I pulled in the aft sail instead of the fore sail. The
battens
> >
> > were most
> >
> > > reluctant to flop over, but some violent boom pulling did the
> >
> > trick.   A deep
> >
> > > breath, some instructions and off we went.  Next shunt in 200m
> >
> > before we hit a
> >
> > > rock wall.  
> >
> > > Came hard on the wind and may have cleared it, but sanity
> >
> > prevailed and we
> >
> > > shunted about 20 m before we hit it.  Mainsheets in the water,
but
> >
> > otherwise
> >
> > > pretty smooth.  Back to the jetty, effortless shunt.  Back to
the
> >
> > rock wall,
> >
> > > effortless shunt.  Cleared the end of the jetty, bore away a
> >
> > little, and up
> >
> > > came the windward hull.  Eased sheet, Mark luffed, down it
came. 
> >
> > Some ominous
> >
> > > cracks from the rudder areas.  Sailed across to the other side
of
> >
> > the bay, a
> >
> > > few more hull flies, and noises, then we noticed the rudder
frames
> >
> > coming
> >
> > > apart,
> >
> > > so decided enough was enough.  Sailed ddw back to the shore. 
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Max speed?  gps was in my bag, so no idea.  Quick, with
potential
> >
> > to be
> >
> > > quicker.  Tacking angle?  No idea, not great, but this was
nothing
> >
> > to do with
> >
> > > the rig or the boat.  Schooner?  No idea re performance, but
> >
> > shunting is a
> >
> > > dream.  Potential?  Huge.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Put it on the trailer and was ready to go home in 30 minutes,
much
> >
> > of which was
> >
> > > spent chatting to incredulous onlookers and tying on gear
which
> >
> > will eventually
> >
> > > have cradles/boxes to sit in.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Next day, Mark beefed up the rudder frames, I assembled a rig
on
> >
> > the grass to
> >
> > > try and sort out the battens.  I (80 kgs)stood on the mast to
get
> >
> > some prebend
> >
> > > and tighten up the battens.  Then picked up the boom rotated
it
> >
> > through 90
> >
> > > degrees and dropped it to my knees then lifted it to about my
> >
> > chest as hard as
> >
> > > I could.  Very small force compared to what we had tested and
> >
> > sailed with, and
> >
> > > nothing compared to my efforts on the water the day before. 
The
> >
> > battens
> >
> > > floated across beautifully.  Initial euphoria turned sour when
we
> >
> > saw the mast
> >
> > > had a kink in it.  Took it out and it had broken, a classic
> >
> > compression
> >
> > > collapse on the aft side. 
> >
> > >
> >
> > > We cut the broken section out for inspection and the walls
looked
> >
> > pretty thin. 
> >
> > > We then went back through the laminating records and
discovered
> >
> > that 40 tows
> >
> > > had been skipped in this area.  On the bright side, the
laminate
> >
> > was very well
> >
> > > compacted and even.  The failure was caused by lousy quality
> >
> > control
> >
> > > (disappointing, but not too  surprising at this stage of the
> >
> > rushed process),
> >
> > > the engineering was fine, and the actual construction
technique a
> >
> > success.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So, cancel the Bridge to Bridge race this weekend.  We will
build
> >
> > another mast
> >
> > > over the weekend and test it on Monday.  Not sure if we will
get
> >
> > to Wangi for
> >
> > > the trailerable Nationals, anyone contemplating a visit should
> >
> > ring Mark first.
> >
> > > 
> >
> > > Our apologies to anyone who has made plans to visit either
Grafton
> >
> > or Wangi to
> >
> > > see the boat. 
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Regards,
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Rob and Mark
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > *************************
> >
> > > Mark Stephens
> >
> > > www.harryproa.com
> >
> > > stephens@o...
> >
> > > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >  
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >  
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From my understanding, part of the reason for the rudders raking
forward is to bring them closer to balanced and reduce tiller loads.
It may also help in reducing ventilation. Unfortunately there doesn't
seem to be enough room underneath the beams to accommodate the arm
needed for the loads. I was playing around with drawing a kick up
system but couldn't get the maths to behave for the loads and have
enough room to the beams. I found the photos of the rudders
understandable but not immediately.
I like the idea of a ratchet system in delrin. There is the thought
that the rudder needs to be pushed down to its maximum depth and so
the ratchet would need to operate both ways as it floats. I don't
think that the bouyancy is much more than about an eighth of the
fully lifted up weight. A small string without mechanical advantage
to pull it down should be enough.
A spectra line lift to a small winch through a set of blocks should
also work for lifting, though again, there is the problem of getting
it down.
My idea is to have a lever arm with a cam cleat about 1/5 from the
end and the uplift rope going through a cam cleat on deck then
through the cam cleat on the lever arm. Very simple engineering and a
5:1 advantage ( more like 4/1 after friction) and you don't need to
go near the ruddders. The retaining pin is spring loaded and able to
be relased from the same palce as the lever arm.



--- In harryproa@..., "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@c...>
wrote:
>
> Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work.
Don't
> know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
> possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.
>
> I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load
against
> the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered solutions.
> Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks
better
> for certain critical applications you can offer the components or
> assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the
details
> to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.
>
> You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.
>
> Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it
gave
> the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin pins
for
> the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly and
> still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only need
to
> raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal capstan
> method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower start
> cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a cam
> cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long
enough
> to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
> eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
> removed when the lift is complete.
>
> Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient
purchase
> power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for
even
> more power.
>
> One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases angle
> toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder is
> rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report 7
> seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest.
That
> appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the
direction
> of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.
>
> How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset purchase
be
> amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.  Would
> make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic
form
> for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?
>
> Regards,
>
> JT
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...>
> wrote:
> > Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of
coarse
> and many more,
> > even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs can be
> overcome with
> > conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it simple
> and cheap for
> > amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of
metals.
> Adding a rack a
> > pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
> friction which
> > requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
> turbulence at the
> > water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
> present we have
> > Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple uphaul
> or gantry is most
> > likely.
> >
> > Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way. In
> fact they cant
> > forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over the
> beam. You can just
> > lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go out
> onto the leeward
> > hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
> beams. The uphaul is
> > mainly needed for those with back problems.
> >
> > Keep the ideas rolling in.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > *************************
> > Mark Stephens
> > www.harryproa.com
> > stephens@o...
> > (int. 61) 02 66552016
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: jjtctaylor
> >   To: harryproa@...
> >   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
> >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
> >
> >
> >
> >   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of
the
> >   rudder casing.
> >
> >   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.
> Ratchet is
> >   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired for
> >   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw gear.
> >
> >   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack
and
> >   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a worm
> gear.
> >   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water and
it
> >   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
> >
> >   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in the
> handle
> >   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the rudder
in
> the
> >   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet handle
> >   and/or lift the cam lock.
> >
> >   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with a
> >   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying to
> >   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
> >
> >   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but
would
> >   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up positions
to
> >   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation
other
> >   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this
> seems
> >   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an essential
> >   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
> themselves
> >   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
> connected
> >   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to
beneath
> the
> >   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
> >
> >   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders
with
> >   the full sized design after sea trials.
> >
> >   Rgds,
> >
> >   JT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> Service.

G'day,

Thanks for the update.  Would have been fun in 30 knots!  We should be sailing
again later this week.  Looks like the boat is staying in Urunga for a while,
so drop in and arrange a sail sometime.

Regards,

Rob

Quoting ljc_87au <ljc_87au@...>:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Probably a good thing you didnt make it to harwood. The saturday
>
> race was in a gusty 30kt norwester. F18 cats mixed up with sabots,
>
> big monos, trailer sailers, lasers and the odd dilapidated maricat
>
> made for some interesting "racing". long story short, a few extra
>
> tinnies had to be borrowed for all the extra recues and probably not
>
> ideal proa testing conditions. Todays race started in light winds
>
> against a roaring tide. I didn't see how it ended. Maybe come for a
>
> race with the A class cats at the urunga club when things are sorted
>
> out, high tide only unless you can sail with rudders kicked up
>
> occasionly.
>
>
>
> Leon Close.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
>
> wrote:
>
> > G'day,
>
> >
>
> >  Sorry, this got lost in the ether.  Should have been posted 2
>
> days ago.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A quick note on the launching.
>
> >
>
> > For all the usual reasons the boat was not quite complete when I
>
> arrived here
>
> > from Perth.  Didn't stop it looking very quick, and a few pushes
>
> with my knee
>
> > convinced me it was plenty stiff enough.  I also looked at the
>
> beams and hulls
>
> > of number 2 and they are very well built as well.  On the down
>
> side, we agreed
>
> > the rudder frames looked marginal, they had only been finished the
>
> day before. 
>
> > We spent the day putting on the tramp and fitting the cradles to
>
> > the trailer.  We also had our first look at the sails, and at
>
> first glance
>
> > tentatively decided the masts were too stiff or the sails had
>
> insufficient luff
>
> > curve.  We did some bend tests on the masts, including a 100 kg
>
> load between
>
> > head and boom end. 
>
> >
>
> > Next day, took it down the beach.  Wind 10-15 knots, direction
>
> about 45 degrees
>
> > off directly onshore.  Undid the straps on the ww hull, lifted it
>
> up and slid
>
> > the masts into the lw hull which was in cradles on a pivot. 
>
> Pushed the masts
>
> > in, and slid the sails over the masts.  Took less than 5 minutes. 
>
> Putting in
>
> > the battens, playing with the sail shapes and measuring and buying
>
> the running
>
> > rigging took the next 90.  We then flipped it up, and telescoped
>
> the hulls. 
>
> > Took another couple of minutes.  Because there was a bit of surf
>
> running, three
>
> > of us picked it up and carried it into the water.   Getting
>
> through the surf
>
> > was easy enough, I held the front, Mark got the rudders down (the
>
> blades
>
> > floated, so the tie down clam cleats didn't work), I clambered on,
>
> sheeted on
>
> > and off we went. 
>
> >
>
> > The trampoline stretched as the knots tightened up, so I was
>
> sitting in the
>
> > water, close to the lw hull, Mark was perched on the windward
>
> hull.
>
> > Acceleration was good, first shunt was after about 100m, before we
>
> hit a
>
> > wharf.   Bit of confusion as Mark had both tillers (no lock for
>
> the front one,
>
> > and I pulled in the aft sail instead of the fore sail. The battens
>
> were most
>
> > reluctant to flop over, but some violent boom pulling did the
>
> trick.   A deep
>
> > breath, some instructions and off we went.  Next shunt in 200m
>
> before we hit a
>
> > rock wall.  
>
> > Came hard on the wind and may have cleared it, but sanity
>
> prevailed and we
>
> > shunted about 20 m before we hit it.  Mainsheets in the water, but
>
> otherwise
>
> > pretty smooth.  Back to the jetty, effortless shunt.  Back to the
>
> rock wall,
>
> > effortless shunt.  Cleared the end of the jetty, bore away a
>
> little, and up
>
> > came the windward hull.  Eased sheet, Mark luffed, down it came. 
>
> Some ominous
>
> > cracks from the rudder areas.  Sailed across to the other side of
>
> the bay, a
>
> > few more hull flies, and noises, then we noticed the rudder frames
>
> coming
>
> > apart,
>
> > so decided enough was enough.  Sailed ddw back to the shore. 
>
> >
>
> > Max speed?  gps was in my bag, so no idea.  Quick, with potential
>
> to be
>
> > quicker.  Tacking angle?  No idea, not great, but this was nothing
>
> to do with
>
> > the rig or the boat.  Schooner?  No idea re performance, but
>
> shunting is a
>
> > dream.  Potential?  Huge.
>
> >
>
> > Put it on the trailer and was ready to go home in 30 minutes, much
>
> of which was
>
> > spent chatting to incredulous onlookers and tying on gear which
>
> will eventually
>
> > have cradles/boxes to sit in.
>
> >
>
> > Next day, Mark beefed up the rudder frames, I assembled a rig on
>
> the grass to
>
> > try and sort out the battens.  I (80 kgs)stood on the mast to get
>
> some prebend
>
> > and tighten up the battens.  Then picked up the boom rotated it
>
> through 90
>
> > degrees and dropped it to my knees then lifted it to about my
>
> chest as hard as
>
> > I could.  Very small force compared to what we had tested and
>
> sailed with, and
>
> > nothing compared to my efforts on the water the day before.  The
>
> battens
>
> > floated across beautifully.  Initial euphoria turned sour when we
>
> saw the mast
>
> > had a kink in it.  Took it out and it had broken, a classic
>
> compression
>
> > collapse on the aft side. 
>
> >
>
> > We cut the broken section out for inspection and the walls looked
>
> pretty thin. 
>
> > We then went back through the laminating records and discovered
>
> that 40 tows
>
> > had been skipped in this area.  On the bright side, the laminate
>
> was very well
>
> > compacted and even.  The failure was caused by lousy quality
>
> control
>
> > (disappointing, but not too  surprising at this stage of the
>
> rushed process),
>
> > the engineering was fine, and the actual construction technique a
>
> success.
>
> >
>
> > So, cancel the Bridge to Bridge race this weekend.  We will build
>
> another mast
>
> > over the weekend and test it on Monday.  Not sure if we will get
>
> to Wangi for
>
> > the trailerable Nationals, anyone contemplating a visit should
>
> ring Mark first.
>
> > 
>
> > Our apologies to anyone who has made plans to visit either Grafton
>
> or Wangi to
>
> > see the boat. 
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> >
>
> > Rob and Mark
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > *************************
>
> > Mark Stephens
>
> > www.harryproa.com
>
> > stephens@o...
>
> > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>  
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>  
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not having the prints it's hard to know what can/cannot work.  Don't
know if the casing is tapered or straight or what options are
possible to hold up the rudders if not fully deployed.

I did recognize the shear load had to overcome the side load against
the leading edge.  Always choices and other engineered solutions.
Something to consider, if you decide a mechanical option looks better
for certain critical applications you can offer the components or
assemblies as "kits" to your customer base.  You provide the details
to a machine shop and they produce a kit as a "drop ship" order.

You only need to show the kit option in your plan set.

Actually I thought the interleaving tooth method was neat as it gave
the aft edge of the rudders a "mean" look.  Probably delrin pins for
the tooth set.  That would not spoil the foil flow that badly and
still they don't run to the end of the rudder foil as we only need to
raise it to bottom of hull level.  GO with the horizontal capstan
method and elim the gantry.  Kinda like pulling a lawnmower start
cord.  Instead of the cam lock on the gear itself just add a cam
cleat on the crossbeam to hold the line and the rudder up long enough
to insert a dowel pin(s) through the rudder as a stop.  Have an
eyebolt on the captan to clip your rope pull so the line can be
removed when the lift is complete.

Certainly a leg press against the beam should be sufficient purchase
power.  Could make the capstan bigger than the toothed side for even
more power.

One point of clarification would be helpful.  Do the cases angle
toward the crossbeam or away from the crossbeam when the rudder is
rotated to a position closest the beam ?  Your photos in report 7
seem to show the rudder is raked toward the beam when closest.  That
appears counterintuitive making the rudder rake toward the direction
of motion.  Then again could be a bad photo angle.

How complete is the visionarry plan set ?  Can a planset purchase be
amortized against a (major) revision for the final design.  Would
make things easier to understand.  Guess it's not in electronic form
for customers ? All your stuff in Rhino ?

Regards,

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
wrote:
> Thanks for the input. We've thought of all of those ideas of coarse
and many more,
> even electric. Like your steering lock design  most  needs can be
overcome with
> conventional machine shop engineering. Trick is to keep it simple
and cheap for
> amateur builders to make themselves with the minimum use of metals.
Adding a rack a
> pinion induces side loads which then require a way to reduce
friction which
> requires more moving parts, and we'd rather not have any more
turbulence at the
> water surface. We'll find a solution for future boats but at
present we have
> Johnnies boat with the rudders and cases built so a simple uphaul
or gantry is most
> likely.
>
> Rudders are located close to the beams when rotated that way. In
fact they cant
> forward about 10 degrees so the daggers retract back up over the
beam. You can just
> lean over the beam and pull them up so there is no need to go out
onto the leeward
> hull. This does require each rudder to be rotated towards the
beams. The uphaul is
> mainly needed for those with back problems.
>
> Keep the ideas rolling in.
>
> Mark
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jjtctaylor
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift
>
>
>
>   Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of the
>   rudder casing.
>
>   Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.
Ratchet is
>   a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired for
>   efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw gear.
>
>   Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack and
>   pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a worm
gear.
>   Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water and it
>   will be at the aft end of the rudder.
>
>   The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in the
handle
>   and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the rudder in
the
>   water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet handle
>   and/or lift the cam lock.
>
>   Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with a
>   spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying to
>   avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.
>
>   This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but would
>   recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up positions to
>   relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation other
>   than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this
seems
>   like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an essential
>   operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders
themselves
>   like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be
connected
>   via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to beneath
the
>   cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.
>
>   Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders with
>   the full sized design after sea trials.
>
>   Rgds,
>
>   JT
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Probably a good thing you didnt make it to harwood. The saturday
race was in a gusty 30kt norwester. F18 cats mixed up with sabots,
big monos, trailer sailers, lasers and the odd dilapidated maricat
made for some interesting "racing". long story short, a few extra
tinnies had to be borrowed for all the extra recues and probably not
ideal proa testing conditions. Todays race started in light winds
against a roaring tide. I didn't see how it ended. Maybe come for a
race with the A class cats at the urunga club when things are sorted
out, high tide only unless you can sail with rudders kicked up
occasionly.

Leon Close.




--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
wrote:
> G'day,
>
>  Sorry, this got lost in the ether.  Should have been posted 2
days ago.
>
>
>
> A quick note on the launching.
>
> For all the usual reasons the boat was not quite complete when I
arrived here
> from Perth.  Didn't stop it looking very quick, and a few pushes
with my knee
> convinced me it was plenty stiff enough.  I also looked at the
beams and hulls
> of number 2 and they are very well built as well.  On the down
side, we agreed
> the rudder frames looked marginal, they had only been finished the
day before.
> We spent the day putting on the tramp and fitting the cradles to
> the trailer.  We also had our first look at the sails, and at
first glance
> tentatively decided the masts were too stiff or the sails had
insufficient luff
> curve.  We did some bend tests on the masts, including a 100 kg
load between
> head and boom end.
>
> Next day, took it down the beach.  Wind 10-15 knots, direction
about 45 degrees
> off directly onshore.  Undid the straps on the ww hull, lifted it
up and slid
> the masts into the lw hull which was in cradles on a pivot.
Pushed the masts
> in, and slid the sails over the masts.  Took less than 5 minutes.
Putting in
> the battens, playing with the sail shapes and measuring and buying
the running
> rigging took the next 90.  We then flipped it up, and telescoped
the hulls.
> Took another couple of minutes.  Because there was a bit of surf
running, three
> of us picked it up and carried it into the water.   Getting
through the surf
> was easy enough, I held the front, Mark got the rudders down (the
blades
> floated, so the tie down clam cleats didn't work), I clambered on,
sheeted on
> and off we went.
>
> The trampoline stretched as the knots tightened up, so I was
sitting in the
> water, close to the lw hull, Mark was perched on the windward
hull.
> Acceleration was good, first shunt was after about 100m, before we
hit a
> wharf.   Bit of confusion as Mark had both tillers (no lock for
the front one,
> and I pulled in the aft sail instead of the fore sail. The battens
were most
> reluctant to flop over, but some violent boom pulling did the
trick.   A deep
> breath, some instructions and off we went.  Next shunt in 200m
before we hit a
> rock wall.
> Came hard on the wind and may have cleared it, but sanity
prevailed and we
> shunted about 20 m before we hit it.  Mainsheets in the water, but
otherwise
> pretty smooth.  Back to the jetty, effortless shunt.  Back to the
rock wall,
> effortless shunt.  Cleared the end of the jetty, bore away a
little, and up
> came the windward hull.  Eased sheet, Mark luffed, down it came.
Some ominous
> cracks from the rudder areas.  Sailed across to the other side of
the bay, a
> few more hull flies, and noises, then we noticed the rudder frames
coming
> apart,
> so decided enough was enough.  Sailed ddw back to the shore.
>
> Max speed?  gps was in my bag, so no idea.  Quick, with potential
to be
> quicker.  Tacking angle?  No idea, not great, but this was nothing
to do with
> the rig or the boat.  Schooner?  No idea re performance, but
shunting is a
> dream.  Potential?  Huge.
>
> Put it on the trailer and was ready to go home in 30 minutes, much
of which was
> spent chatting to incredulous onlookers and tying on gear which
will eventually
> have cradles/boxes to sit in.
>
> Next day, Mark beefed up the rudder frames, I assembled a rig on
the grass to
> try and sort out the battens.  I (80 kgs)stood on the mast to get
some prebend
> and tighten up the battens.  Then picked up the boom rotated it
through 90
> degrees and dropped it to my knees then lifted it to about my
chest as hard as
> I could.  Very small force compared to what we had tested and
sailed with, and
> nothing compared to my efforts on the water the day before.  The
battens
> floated across beautifully.  Initial euphoria turned sour when we
saw the mast
> had a kink in it.  Took it out and it had broken, a classic
compression
> collapse on the aft side.
>
> We cut the broken section out for inspection and the walls looked
pretty thin.
> We then went back through the laminating records and discovered
that 40 tows
> had been skipped in this area.  On the bright side, the laminate
was very well
> compacted and even.  The failure was caused by lousy quality
control
> (disappointing, but not too  surprising at this stage of the
rushed process),
> the engineering was fine, and the actual construction technique a
success.
>
> So, cancel the Bridge to Bridge race this weekend.  We will build
another mast
> over the weekend and test it on Monday.  Not sure if we will get
to Wangi for
> the trailerable Nationals, anyone contemplating a visit should
ring Mark first.
>
> Our apologies to anyone who has made plans to visit either Grafton
or Wangi to
> see the boat.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob and Mark
>
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016

----- Original Message -----

From: jjtctaylor

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:17 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Lift

Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of the
rudder casing.

Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.  Ratchet is
a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired for
efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw gear.

Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack and
pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a worm gear. 
Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water and it
will be at the aft end of the rudder.

The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in the handle
and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the rudder in the
water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet handle
and/or lift the cam lock.

Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with a
spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying to
avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.

This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but would
recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up positions to
relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation other
than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this seems
like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an essential
operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders themselves
like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be connected
via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to beneath the
cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair. 

Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders with
the full sized design after sea trials. 

Rgds,

JT

Let me suggest a ratchet wheel and cam lock on the aft end of the
rudder casing.

Our problem is vertical lift where no rigging is located.  Ratchet is
a proven method and the lever arm can be as long as desired for
efficiency.  Cam lock is simple gravity weighted on a paw gear.

Simple and easy to design.  The lift track can either be rack and
pinion, interweaving posts, or if we really want torque a worm gear.
Only a modest amount of the track needs to be in the water and it
will be at the aft end of the rudder.

The beauty of the idea lies in operation.  Since a loop in the handle
and cam lock would enable the crew to raise or drop the rudder in the
water by using the boat hook to snag and pull the ratchet handle
and/or lift the cam lock.

Yes it would be possible to eliminate the ratchet handle with a
spectra line wrapped around a horizontal capstan.  But trying to
avoid the line from fouling the rudder motion.

This ratchet method gives plenty of adjustment freedom, but would
recommend a pin location in the full up or partial up positions to
relieve the stress on the camlock for any lengthy operation other
than full down.  I realize the "denney" method of design this seems
like added complication, but lifting the rudders is an essential
operation.  It can either be self contained on the rudders themselves
like this ratchet or some other improvisation or it will be connected
via rigging and crane arm.  If the rudders were moved to beneath the
cross beam then lifting could be a much simpler affair.

Still have to evaluate the stresses on the visionarry rudders with
the full sized design after sea trials.

Rgds,

JT

Mark,

Don't forget we need a way to hold the rudders in an elevated
position.  Maybe two positions, .. reduced to some functional depth
say 30 cm below the hull and another position even with waterline
depth.

Yes it's an awkward location to reach.  The LW hull gets pointy at
the ends thus not affording much room to directly handle it.
Netting out there seems a cheesy afterthought. I'll think on it.

Regards,


JT
--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The locking mechanism is very simple. Each wheel is on it's own
shaft in it's own
> bearings. A stainless rod runs through the centre of both shafts
with a square
> section piece in the middle. This engages in a square hole in each
shaft. A detent
> ball and spring makes the position of the shaft stay either in the
middle (locking
> both wheels) or at either extent (unlocked). You can see the parts
at
> http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm# .
>
> Yes, if you want to play in shallow water the rudders/daggerboards
are lifted. It
> will be necessary to stop to do this to relieve the side loads,
just like catamaran
> daggerboards. Breaking shear pins will take a bit of effort so plan
not to. These
> were designed in to stop catastrophic breakage of the board, or
worse the brackets.
> Like a cat, hitting the bottom with the daggerboards is to be
avoided. Unlike a cat
> repair is cheap and easy. The dagger and case are retrieved (they
will be attached
> with a lanyard) then put back with new shear pins. Not convenient
but doable, even
> at sea.
>
> Lifting the boards is a problem. They each weigh around 25kg which
could be reduced
> by using foam rather than Kiri. We all have bad backs and a simple
lifting method
> still hasn't been solved. The boards float about 1/3 out of the
water so they are
> not a total dead weight to get to draft depth. We are considering
some sort of
> gantry but at the moment have a line running from the lower
trailing edge which can
> be lead up to a cleat on the quadrant for uphaulling and left
trailing for sailing.
> We are open to suggestions.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jjtctaylor
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:17 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Design
>
>
>
>   That wasn't my wheel locking idea was it ?  Didn't know you were
>   going to try that.  Aren't you locking the forward rudder and
>   steering with the aft ?  Thought you both considered fore+ aft
>   steering to be too sensitive.
>
>   So what I understand is both rudders steer when locked.  If you
>   wanna shunt unlock the steering (let go of the wheel too !)  If
you
>   wanna crab, unlock the steering and turn the wheels in opposite
>   directions.
>
>   If you want to play in shallow water.
>
>   A) Plan ahead to lift the rudders from their casings.
>   B) Somebody is going to tell us how to keep them partially
>   deployed.
>   C) Keep extra shear pins in stock.
>
>   Don't wait too long in bad seas to lift them or wind load will
bind
>   them in the casing.
>
>   I have a back problem what is the mechanism for lifting a rudder
>   and how much do they weigh ?  Hanging out to pull the rudders
>   is not OK for me.  Probably not a happy thing for anyone in a
>   confused sea or high winds.  Guess the pivoting idea never
>   worked out so well.
>
>   Regards,
>
>   JT
>
>   --- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
>   <stephens@o...> wrote:
>   > The rudders are basically a steerable daggerboard in a case
>   with the board siding
>   > up through the case.  The rudders cant forward giving balance.
>   The case is set up
>   > with shear pins to break away before doing any other damage
>   if run aground. Sorry
>   > about the lack of photos, there were supposed to be a lot more
>   two updates ago but
>   > we only just realised they didn't go on. Michele assures me an
>   update is imminent.
>   >
>   > The rudders should take care of themselves in a shunt as any
>   leeway made will start
>   > both rudders turning in the right direction. The wheels are
>   locked together for
>   > normal sailing then unlocked in a shunt with both wheels
>   spinning 3 turns in
>   > opposite directions, then locked again. The locking
>   mechanism is a push pull shaft
>   > through the centre of the wheels, when centred it locks the
>   wheels together, when
>   > pushed or pulled it is unlocked. The idea is no matter which
>   shunt you are on you
>   > can push the knob in the wheel centre to unlock, so no
>   confusion is involved.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   > Mark
>   >
>   > *************************
>   > Mark Stephens
>   > www.harryproa.com
>   > stephens@o...
>   > (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: jjtctaylor
>   >   To: harryproa@...
>   >   Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:22 PM
>   >   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Design
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Rob,
>   >
>   >   Could you explain to me again, perhaps for the benefit of the
>   >   group just how the rudders work ?
>   >
>   >   I look at the photos from report 7 and clearly see rotation in
>   the
>   >   horizontal plane.   Don't see anything in the vertical plane.
>   >
>   >   My guess is since the daggerboard/ rudder box (cases) is
>   >   angled it will follow properly in a shunt, but you will have
to
>   >   unlock both wheels and rotate them.
>   >
>   >   Then again I could be way off the mark.  Hopefully the rudders
>   do
>   >   pivot upward but it's hard to tell with the modest pictures
>   during
>   >   construction.  The rudders need a positive retraction method
>   as
>   >   its is unlikely to be able to pull them up from the cases
while
>   at
>   >   sea.  In a big blow we'll snap them off or take the linkages
>   right
>   >   out of the LW hull from the side load.
>   >
>   >   Thanks in advance for any clarification. ......  Send
photos.  I'll
>   >   start pacing out cubits for sufficient covered workspace for
>   >   barges.
>   >
>   >   Regards,
>   >
>   >   JT
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
>   >   Yahoo! Groups Links
>   >
>   >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>   >     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>   >
>   >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   >     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>   of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Stephens

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 10:46 AM

Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Design

Hi,

 

The locking mechanism is very simple. Each wheel is on it's own shaft in it's own bearings. A stainless rod runs through the centre of both shafts with a square section piece in the middle. This engages in a square hole in each shaft. A detent ball and spring makes the position of the shaft stay either in the middle (locking both wheels) or at either extent (unlocked). You can see the parts at http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm# .

 

Yes, if you want to play in shallow water the rudders/daggerboards are lifted. It will be necessary to stop to do this to relieve the side loads, just like catamaran daggerboards. Breaking shear pins will take a bit of effort so plan not to. These were designed in to stop catastrophic breakage of the board, or worse the brackets. Like a cat, hitting the bottom with the daggerboards is to be avoided. Unlike a cat repair is cheap and easy. The dagger and case are retrieved (they will be attached with a lanyard) then put back with new shear pins. Not convenient but doable, even at sea.

 

Lifting the boards is a problem. They each weigh around 25kg which could be reduced by using foam rather than Kiri. We all have bad backs and a simple lifting method still hasn't been solved. The boards float about 1/3 out of the water so they are not a total dead weight to get to draft depth. We are considering some sort of gantry but at the moment have a line running from the lower trailing edge which can be lead up to a cleat on the quadrant for uphaulling and left trailing for sailing. We are open to suggestions.

 

 

Regards,

Mark

 

 

*************************
Mark Stephens
www.harryproa.com
stephens@...
(int. 61) 02 66552016

----- Original Message -----

From: jjtctaylor

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:17 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Design

That wasn't my wheel locking idea was it ?  Didn't know you were
going to try that.  Aren't you locking the forward rudder and
steering with the aft ?  Thought you both considered fore+ aft
steering to be too sensitive.

So what I understand is both rudders steer when locked.  If you
wanna shunt unlock the steering (let go of the wheel too !)  If you
wanna crab, unlock the steering and turn the wheels in opposite
directions.

If you want to play in shallow water.

A) Plan ahead to lift the rudders from their casings.
B) Somebody is going to tell us how to keep them partially
deployed.
C) Keep extra shear pins in stock.

Don't wait too long in bad seas to lift them or wind load will bind
them in the casing.

I have a back problem what is the mechanism for lifting a rudder
and how much do they weigh ?  Hanging out to pull the rudders
is not OK for me.  Probably not a happy thing for anyone in a
confused sea or high winds.  Guess the pivoting idea never
worked out so well.

Regards,

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...> wrote:
> The rudders are basically a steerable daggerboard in a case
with the board siding
> up through the case.  The rudders cant forward giving balance.
The case is set up
> with shear pins to break away before doing any other damage
if run aground. Sorry
> about the lack of photos, there were supposed to be a lot more
two updates ago but
> we only just realised they didn't go on. Michele assures me an
update is imminent.
>
> The rudders should take care of themselves in a shunt as any
leeway made will start
> both rudders turning in the right direction. The wheels are
locked together for
> normal sailing then unlocked in a shunt with both wheels
spinning 3 turns in
> opposite directions, then locked again. The locking
mechanism is a push pull shaft
> through the centre of the wheels, when centred it locks the
wheels together, when
> pushed or pulled it is unlocked. The idea is no matter which
shunt you are on you
> can push the knob in the wheel centre to unlock, so no
confusion is involved.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jjtctaylor
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:22 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Design
>
>
>
>   Rob,
>
>   Could you explain to me again, perhaps for the benefit of the
>   group just how the rudders work ?
>
>   I look at the photos from report 7 and clearly see rotation in
the
>   horizontal plane.   Don't see anything in the vertical plane.
>
>   My guess is since the daggerboard/ rudder box (cases) is
>   angled it will follow properly in a shunt, but you will have to
>   unlock both wheels and rotate them.
>
>   Then again I could be way off the mark.  Hopefully the rudders
do
>   pivot upward but it's hard to tell with the modest pictures
during
>   construction.  The rudders need a positive retraction method
as
>   its is unlikely to be able to pull them up from the cases while
at
>   sea.  In a big blow we'll snap them off or take the linkages
right
>   out of the LW hull from the side load.
>
>   Thanks in advance for any clarification. ......  Send photos.  I'll
>   start pacing out cubits for sufficient covered workspace for
>   barges.
>
>   Regards,
>
>   JT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: jjtctaylor

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 2:17 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: Rudder Design

That wasn't my wheel locking idea was it ?  Didn't know you were
going to try that.  Aren't you locking the forward rudder and
steering with the aft ?  Thought you both considered fore+ aft
steering to be too sensitive.

So what I understand is both rudders steer when locked.  If you
wanna shunt unlock the steering (let go of the wheel too !)  If you
wanna crab, unlock the steering and turn the wheels in opposite
directions.

If you want to play in shallow water.

A) Plan ahead to lift the rudders from their casings.
B) Somebody is going to tell us how to keep them partially
deployed.
C) Keep extra shear pins in stock.

Don't wait too long in bad seas to lift them or wind load will bind
them in the casing.

I have a back problem what is the mechanism for lifting a rudder
and how much do they weigh ?  Hanging out to pull the rudders
is not OK for me.  Probably not a happy thing for anyone in a
confused sea or high winds.  Guess the pivoting idea never
worked out so well.

Regards,

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens"
<stephens@o...> wrote:
> The rudders are basically a steerable daggerboard in a case
with the board siding
> up through the case.  The rudders cant forward giving balance.
The case is set up
> with shear pins to break away before doing any other damage
if run aground. Sorry
> about the lack of photos, there were supposed to be a lot more
two updates ago but
> we only just realised they didn't go on. Michele assures me an
update is imminent.
>
> The rudders should take care of themselves in a shunt as any
leeway made will start
> both rudders turning in the right direction. The wheels are
locked together for
> normal sailing then unlocked in a shunt with both wheels
spinning 3 turns in
> opposite directions, then locked again. The locking
mechanism is a push pull shaft
> through the centre of the wheels, when centred it locks the
wheels together, when
> pushed or pulled it is unlocked. The idea is no matter which
shunt you are on you
> can push the knob in the wheel centre to unlock, so no
confusion is involved.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
> *************************
> Mark Stephens
> www.harryproa.com
> stephens@o...
> (int. 61) 02 66552016
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jjtctaylor
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:22 PM
>   Subject: [harryproa] Rudder Design
>
>
>
>   Rob,
>
>   Could you explain to me again, perhaps for the benefit of the
>   group just how the rudders work ?
>
>   I look at the photos from report 7 and clearly see rotation in
the
>   horizontal plane.   Don't see anything in the vertical plane.
>
>   My guess is since the daggerboard/ rudder box (cases) is
>   angled it will follow properly in a shunt, but you will have to
>   unlock both wheels and rotate them.
>
>   Then again I could be way off the mark.  Hopefully the rudders
do
>   pivot upward but it's hard to tell with the modest pictures
during
>   construction.  The rudders need a positive retraction method
as
>   its is unlikely to be able to pull them up from the cases while
at
>   sea.  In a big blow we'll snap them off or take the linkages
right
>   out of the LW hull from the side load.
>
>   Thanks in advance for any clarification. ......  Send photos.  I'll
>   start pacing out cubits for sufficient covered workspace for
>   barges.
>
>   Regards,
>
>   JT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.

jjtctaylor wrote:
> If you want to play in shallow water.

Have (a) steerable outboard(s) :)

> Don't wait too long in bad seas to lift them or wind load will bind
> them in the casing.

I'm guessing this will be easier with a rudder than with a daggerboard,
because you can turn the rudder until there is no side load before
lifting it?

Cheers, Dave