I reckon it is about time that Bain cleaned out his workshop again so
we can get some updates of his Harry'
Hope the floods weren't too much of a problem
Robert
Hi Robert,
Bain has painted his proa on the outside (same colour as Johnnies, off
whitish tone called 'Lillium') and is now fitting out the interior ready
for painting. The steering set up is being put together, etc.etc.
We all continue to wait....
cheers, michele
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:44 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Launching Harrys
> I reckon it is about time that Bain cleaned out his workshop again so
> we can get some updates of his Harry'
>
> Hope the floods weren't too much of a problem
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/05
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Rob,
If shunting needs less rudder action than tacking, then it would
make sense to experiment
with laminar flow rudder blades (eg. NACA 66-012) instead of
turbulent rudder blades (NACA 0012), wouldn´t it ?
We are still working on the wing mast.
Best regards,
Myriam & Youri
Wangka bvba
Belgium
Worth an experiment, for sure. However, even with less rudder action there is still some, so I think the 00 series would be a better bet. Maybe try one of each and see what happens. One of the good things about the beam mounted rudders is that you can actually look at the rudders, and with the help of either some ink or some telltales glued to the foils, you can see what happens as the angle of attack increases. If you could get a boat to tow the proa, the difference in drag should be pretty easy to see. It would be fun to do this next summer, if you don't get time before.
We have been accepted for the Aruba series. The boat needs to be in Amsterdam by October 1st. I am pretty sure I can get a couple (man and wife) from Ireland to enter and race it. They are getting too old for their 16' cat, are pretty good sailors and very careful.
What are your thoughts on them, whether you want the boat to go to Aruba and whether it will be ready in time? Ideally, they would come over in late September, sail the boat, then take it to Amsterdam for loading.
Great that you are building the wing masts. What section shape and chord are you using?
Ho! Yeah, I was just thinking that along with the good things about HP's is the absence of a mast support pole in the cabin where you usually have to walk around in a lot of boats. Centre boards the same. Those little things help to make things better.
Doug
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Ho! Yeah, I was just thinking that along with the good things about HP's is the absence of a mast support pole in the cabin where you usually have to walk around in a lot of boats. Centre boards the same. Those little things help to make things better.
Doug
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I am so totally fed up with that piece of rubbish I built - you know it flipped over because of the crazy Bicton tornado!
Which one is this - the carbon fibre racing ele?
Do you recommend wetsuit?
You know I really think I can see myself building one myself if I can get some money together for the plans - as you say the actual material cost shouldn't be much.
The main thing I can imagine changing the design - would be maqst height less than the Freo bridges (about 6-7m). Maybe an outboard too and I don't know how much the tent top thing is likely to be but might not be in proportion to the rest.Have you been to Rotto in any proa's?
I really dream of building as a living - obviously Harryproa's, if they'll sell. Right now money's the problem, and the burden of two Hartley boats (16' and 28' tri) are needed to be sold first, then I should start getting somewhere.
Do you still envisage building your own cruising one?
I guess you like racing too.
I mostly just go boogie boarding and build - but cruising INDO etc is a dream.
So maybe see you later
Doug H
Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
They sure do. By the way, I am sailing Elementarry most weekends if you would like to come for a sail.
Ho! Yeah, I was just thinking that along with the good things about HP's is the absence of a mast support pole in the cabin where you usually have to walk around in a lot of boats. Centre boards the same. Those little things help to make things better.
Doug
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.
Hi All,
I have been researching multi designs to build for a while now (Wharram, Woods,
Kellsell,
Shuttleworth & Farrier) and really like the Harryproa concept. It just seems to
me that there
is not much space in them for their size. So I have a few questions regarding
their design.
Why does the accommodation hull need to be so narrow down low? Could a Harryproa
be
built with an accommodation hull like the centre of a trimaran, or at least more
flared.
There would be little more wetted area, but bouyancy would be improved as would
living
area inside. Is it because of slamming or wake interference between the two
hulls?
The bridgedeck area from what I have read is not of standing head room height.
Could the
height of the mast boom be raised to allow for more height in the bridge deck or
would
this adversely affect windage and or righting moment?
Could the lee hull be flared more at the top to provide more useable bunk space
when
visitors are aboard or for crew if the boat were put to charter work?
Sorry if these have been canvassed before, it's just I couldn't find the info.
Love the designs, just love the simplicity, keep up the good work.
Hi
I am not sure as to how to call you as you haven't signed your email
but hi anyway,
I have thought some similar things and discussed some of them with
Mark for the Harry I plan to build.
There doesn't seem to be any particular reason not to flare the ww
hull inwards except for ease of building but how much extra space do
you really get. I have wondered about having the dimensions of the ww
hull similar to a Farrier tri but the theory is to keep the
length /width ratio reasonably high to reduce wave drag. I am not
sure if Rob has tried a fatter ww hull to contrast it. These boats
can carry a fair load for their width and depth as there is very
little rocker. The limit of the ww hull on the Harry is largely due
to legal towing widths. There is actually quite a lot of
accommodation in these boats, especially for the weight and cost.
My idea for getting extra space in the cockpit and turning it into a
decent saloon is to put the sleeping areas sideways with the feet
under the outside seats. There is a problem of heel which has to be
addressed.
I also liked the idea of flaring the inside of the lw hull, a la some
of the Schionning designs, to both give extra accommodaton and also
to reduce the point loadings on the crossbeams but Mark pointed out
that there are added complications in the engineering for the torque
on the lw hull. There is also the interference with the rudders. I
still think it worth a try. There is already enough room in the
Visionarry for berths in the lw hull but the Harry is a little narrow
for comfort but possible.
Unfortunately, with extra accommodation the boat starts to get
heavier.
The lack of headroom on the bridgedeck is primarily to avoid
excessive windage but it is comfortable sitting down and you can
always put in a pop top for relaxed cruising and at anchor.
All these extra complications add to time and effort in building that
may be better spent on building bigger or finishing earlier and
sailing more.
Seeing these boats in the flesh gives a different perspective on
their roominess. I would contrast accommodation/weight ratios to get
an understanding of their value.
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "jocroome" <jocroome@y...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have been researching multi designs to build for a while now
(Wharram, Woods, Kellsell,
> Shuttleworth & Farrier) and really like the Harryproa concept. It
just seems to me that there
> is not much space in them for their size. So I have a few questions
regarding their design.
>
> Why does the accommodation hull need to be so narrow down low?
Could a Harryproa be
> built with an accommodation hull like the centre of a trimaran, or
at least more flared.
> There would be little more wetted area, but bouyancy would be
improved as would living
> area inside. Is it because of slamming or wake interference between
the two hulls?
>
> The bridgedeck area from what I have read is not of standing head
room height. Could the
> height of the mast boom be raised to allow for more height in the
bridge deck or would
> this adversely affect windage and or righting moment?
>
> Could the lee hull be flared more at the top to provide more
useable bunk space when
> visitors are aboard or for crew if the boat were put to charter
work?
>
> Sorry if these have been canvassed before, it's just I couldn't
find the info.
>
> Love the designs, just love the simplicity, keep up the good work.
I have been researching multi designs to build for a while now (Wharram, Woods, Kellsell, Shuttleworth & Farrier) and really like the Harryproa concept. It just seems to me that there is not much space in them for their size. So I have a few questions regarding their design.
To say there is not much space for their size is looking at them from the wrong direction and missing the point of Harryproas. There is a growing trend with modern multis, particularly cats, towards fitting too much in a given space. It is ostensibly waterline length that gives performance and beam which gives you righting moment allowing greater sail carrying capacity. Catamarans inherantly have a large footprint allowing good performance but designers are under intense market pressure to fill this extra space with living accomodation and comfort leading to boats that are becoming unaffordable and no longer perform. At Harryproa, we start off with a given amount of accomodation and design the amount of boat needed to give that accomodation suitable performance. Thus you end up with a long wide boat with the benefits of very good performance, light weight, economical to build and safe, easy handling. As it happens you do also end up with a great deal of accomodation and useable deckspace. Most people are amazed at how much space there is in the ww hulls. Comfort, price and performance is the triplet not available in other designs.
Why does the accommodation hull need to be so narrow down low? Could a Harryproa be built with an accommodation hull like the centre of a trimaran, or at least more flared. There would be little more wetted area, but bouyancy would be improved as would living area inside. Is it because of slamming or wake interference between the two hulls?
We have considered flaired hulls but decided they're not necessary on the present models. The L/B ratio of Harryproa leeward hulls are very high at around1:20, which gives us performance. The windward hulls have a lower L/B but must be kept reasonably high to avoid excessive drag. The balance is to provide enough buoyancy and space inside while not slowing the boat. We feel the waterline widths chosen have given us this balance, maintaining adequate accomodation. Flairing the ww hull makes building more difficult, increases weight and makes coming alongside more dificult, as well as creating the potential to carry more 'junk'. Again, we are avoiding the trend to fit too much accomodation into a given space.
The bridgedeck area from what I have read is not of standing head room height. Could the height of the mast boom be raised to allow for more height in the bridge deck or would this adversely affect windage and or righting moment?
The bridgedecks does have full standing headroom on all our models although you do need to duck when shunting the Harry. The Harry also has full headroom in the cockpit with the poptop up. The cruising Visionarry has has full headroom throughout.
Could the lee hull be flared more at the top to provide more useable bunk space when visitors are aboard or for crew if the boat were put to charter work?
Possibly. Robert has also suggested this but we would need our engineer to investigate how this would affect the torsional loads.
Sorry if these have been canvassed before, it's just I couldn't find the info.
We are always happy to answer questions.
Love the designs, just love the simplicity, keep up the good work.
Glad you like them. We too love the simplicity and hope to keep them that way.
--- In harryproa@..., "Robert" <cateran1949@y...> wrote:
> Hi
> I am not sure as to how to call you as you haven't signed your email
> but hi anyway, I have thought some similar things and discussed some of
them with
> Mark for the Harry I plan to build...
Hi Robert, sorry for not signing off. Richard here, signed in on my wife's yahoo
account. Thanks for that info. I can live with the narrow waterline ww hull.
Having looked at the Visionarry, I think it is probrably a better option for me
as
I will have 2 kids with me as well for the forseeable future and the build time
is
similar to the Farrier F32 which I am also considering, though it should be a
lot cheaper to build since there is no need for all that deck hardware,
chainplates etc.
I liked the original Harry design where seating was provided outside on the
deck. Maybe the Visionarry could be adapted similarly but with a cover, i.e.
extend the cockpit around the leeside of the windward hull), since I live in
the
tropics and shade is a must.
I was also thinking maybe the bows/sterns could have a wing constructed
similarly to the Farriers to allow the netting to be extend to the bows. It
would
need to be the large web variety to let the waves through, but that's OK. It
would make the "play" area huge. It would need to make allowances for the
rudders being lifted though. Just a thought.
I'm probrably never going to get to see a Harryproa in the flesh until I build
one as I live in Sumatra, which reminds me, they have a teak here (no cedar
from what I can gather), that I an get hold of, I'm just wondering if it will be
too
heavy / light. What is the minimum wood density for building, do you know?
Thanks again.
Richard
If you have been considering an F32 then the Visionarry would seem cavernous. Trimarans are fine craft but relatively expensive. They also have one of the shorter hulls doing most of the work and the other is always redundant.
If I understand your needs correctly then the 'Blind Date" style Visionarry may suit your needs. She has covered outside seating and is much simpler, therefore lighter, cheaper and quicker to build.
I don't think the winglets would be necessary. We prefer clean bows to allow water to shed easily. As the bows are very long you could still run nets out to them, though I doubt you would feel the need once you have seen how much room there is already.
It would certainly be good to have a Visionarry sailing in Sumatra! We use Kiri wood which has a S.G. of .29 with Western Red Cedar being around .38. Teak is usually much too heavy for strip planking and too oily for gluing.
--- In harryproa@..., "Robert" <cateran1949@y...> wrote: > Hi > I am not sure as to how to call you as you haven't signed your email > but hi anyway, I have thought some similar things and discussed some of them with > Mark for the Harry I plan to build...
Hi Robert, sorry for not signing off. Richard here, signed in on my wife's yahoo account. Thanks for that info. I can live with the narrow waterline ww hull. Having looked at the Visionarry, I think it is probrably a better option for me as I will have 2 kids with me as well for the forseeable future and the build time is similar to the Farrier F32 which I am also considering, though it should be a lot cheaper to build since there is no need for all that deck hardware, chainplates etc.
I liked the original Harry design where seating was provided outside on the deck. Maybe the Visionarry could be adapted similarly but with a cover, i.e. extend the cockpit around the leeside of the windward hull), since I live in the tropics and shade is a must.
I was also thinking maybe the bows/sterns could have a wing constructed similarly to the Farriers to allow the netting to be extend to the bows. It would need to be the large web variety to let the waves through, but that's OK. It would make the "play" area huge. It would need to make allowances for the rudders being lifted though. Just a thought.
I'm probrably never going to get to see a Harryproa in the flesh until I build one as I live in Sumatra, which reminds me, they have a teak here (no cedar from what I can gather), that I an get hold of, I'm just wondering if it will be too heavy / light. What is the minimum wood density for building, do you know?
--- In harryproa@..., "Mark Stephens" <stephens@o...>
wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> If you have been considering an F32 then the Visionarry would seem
cavernous.
Robert-
I was staggered by the spaciouseness of the Visionarry when I saw it
in the flesh. My wife fell in love with it but I felt that I could
build the Harry in less time and would be sufficient for a couple to
go cruising. A Visionarry would be ample for a couple with a couple
of children.
Snip>
> It would certainly be good to have a Visionarry sailing in Sumatra!
We use Kiri wood which has a S.G. of .29 with Western Red Cedar being
around .38. Teak is usually much too heavy for strip planking and too
oily for gluing.
Robert-
I was wondering if the lighter weight woods used for racing dugout
canoes such as wood from the kapok tree might be suitable. When I was
in Nuiguinea the local 40' racing canoes could be put on the back of
a truck by only the crews grunt. The canoes seemed reasonably
resistant to rot with only house paint on them. There should be
similar trees in Sumatra. If you have to import then it may be worth
going to foam if transport costs are significant.
Regards
Robert
Hi Mark, Michelle.
Carole will be in Darwin in a few weeks and me and the dog a couple of
weeks later.
I was wondering about the difficulties in using epoxies in high
humidities. I assume there are tropical formulas but in 90% humidity I
was wondering if they are as good as they say they are and it may be
better to epoxy only in the dry season.
Regards
Carole and Robert
The epoxies suffering from amine blush (mostly the 4 and 5:1 types) are a pain in humid conditions. The 2:1 types are usually ok. What you do need to watch is that in rapidly varying humidity that both sides are coated where possible. This is especially so with products like Duracore. Cedar is pretty bad as well, kiri is supposed to be more stable, but I have no experience of it in such a situation so far.
If you intend sailing from a very wet place to a very dry place, I would expect there to be some print through of the planks. Therefore, I would leave the final fairing until everything had settled down. Maybe a year or two.
There have always been a bunch of boats being built in Darwin. Ask around and see what everyone uses and what tricks they have devised.
BTW, I got your drawings. No reason at all why it would not work. In fact, I am in the throes of putting an outboard seat on Elementarry. Will let you know how it goes.
Carole will be in Darwin in a few weeks and me and the dog a couple of weeks later. I was wondering about the difficulties in using epoxies in high humidities. I assume there are tropical formulas but in 90% humidity I was wondering if they are as good as they say they are and it may be better to epoxy only in the dry season.
Having had a good look at John's Visionarry on the North Coast the thing that
impressed me most was that this is a boat that is big, simple, light and looks
fast standing still(and very futuristic). It doesn't have a huge amount of room
inside for its waterline length; I would say as much as a 36-38ft cruising
bridgedeck cat or a 40-42ft performance cat; but it should outperform the latter
and be way cheaper to build than either. It is better than a cat for forward
visibility and has a great "veranda"; the tramps are an integrated part of your
living/socialising space and could be fully enclosed (perhaps using the boom for
support) while at anchor for even more living space. The leeward hull has a
suprising amount of usable room and would be perfect for accomodating older
kids; it doesn't need to be flared and this would add weight and alot of build
time. I think the end berth in the windward hull could easily contain 2 kids
bunks. The bridgedeck had just enough headroom for
me (I'm 6'2") and comfortable seating for 4-5 around the settee. Nav Table and
electronics are protected and very accessible.
Perhaps the most beautiful thing about the boat is the rig, incredible for its
simplicity. It has yet to be fully tested on the visionarry and no doubt there
will be teething problems, but its been well thought out. The option of kite
sails will add a bit of excitement.
Access to a 20m shed is my main stumbling block at the moment!
BTW thank you Mark for your time showing me around the boat, and we hope to get
up again soon. How's progress?
I haven't found a copy of Yachting World. Is the article on line and do you have
a URL?
Luke Timmermans
Twiggy Tri
16 myee place
forresters beach 2260
0242856387
Progress is good. I have finished building in a surprisingly roomy fridge, 210 litres, have almost finished the fabric liner in the bunks and am now building in the mast bearings. All these jobs are ongoing filling in time between mast building processes. Fitting out the mast seems to be a lot of one hour jobs that need a day to cure so overall progress is slow. We are mounting a single winch on the forward side of the mast under the boom with six clutches above to take care of outhaul, 2 reefs, two main halyards and a jib halyard. That means we have a 50' boat with just two winches! It is all very close to complete with just painting to go. We've also made a start on Bain's Harry mast which seems tiny after the Visionarry.
I don't think Yachting World has hit the Australian stands yet and doubt if it is anywhere on the web. We also have an article in Multihull World.
Having had a good look at John's Visionarry on the North Coast the thing that impressed me most was that this is a boat that is big, simple, light and looks fast standing still (and very futuristic). It doesn't have a huge amount of room inside for its waterline length; I would say as much as a 36-38ft cruising bridgedeck cat or a 40-42ft performance cat; but it should outperform the latter and be way cheaper to build than either. It is better than a cat for forward visibility and has a great "veranda"; the tramps are an integrated part of your living/socialising space and could be fully enclosed (perhaps using the boom for support) while at anchor for even more living space. The leeward hull has a suprising amount of usable room and would be perfect for accomodating older kids; it doesn't need to be flared and this would add weight and alot of build time. I think the end berth in the windward hull could easily contain 2 kids bunks. The bridgedeck had just enough headroom for me (I'm 6'2") and comfortable seating for 4-5 around the settee. Nav Table and electronics are protected and very accessible. Perhaps the most beautiful thing about the boat is the rig, incredible for its simplicity. It has yet to be fully tested on the visionarry and no doubt there will be teething problems, but its been well thought out. The option of kite sails will add a bit of excitement. Access to a 20m shed is my main stumbling block at the moment! BTW thank you Mark for your time showing me around the boat, and we hope to get up again soon. How's progress? I haven't found a copy of Yachting World. Is the article on line and do you have a URL?
> > Hi Richard,
> > If you have been considering an F32 then the Visionarry would seem
> cavernous.
> Robert
Hi Robert,
Now I'm getting really excited. I also just got my copy of Multihull World in
the post today.
Both the Visonarry's look fantastic, super quick. Can't wait to see them rigged
and sailing.
Will pursue the timber and foam options from here to see what is possible.
Thanks for all you help. When will your boat be ready?
Richard
Having had a good look at John's Visionarry on the North Coast the thing that impressed me most was that this is a boat that is big, simple, light and looks fast standing still(and very futuristic). It doesn't have a huge amount of room inside for its waterline length; I would say as much as a 36-38ft cruising bridgedeck cat or a 40-42ft performance cat; but it should outperform the latter and be way cheaper to build than either. It is better than a cat for forward visibility and has a great "veranda"; the tramps are an integrated part of your living/socialising space and could be fully enclosed (perhaps using the boom for support) while at anchor for even more living space. The leeward hull has a suprising amount of usable room and would be perfect for accomodating older kids; it doesn't need to be flared and this would add weight and alot of build time. I think the end berth in the windward hull could easily contain 2 kids bunks. The bridgedeck had just enough headroom for me (I'm 6'2") and comfortable seating for 4-5 around the settee. Nav Table and electronics are protected and very accessible. Perhaps the most beautiful thing about the boat is the rig, incredible for its simplicity. It has yet to be fully tested on the visionarry and no doubt there will be teething problems, but its been well thought out. The option of kite sails will add a bit of excitement. Access to a 20m shed is my main stumbling block at the moment! BTW thank you Mark for your time showing me around the boat, and we hope to get up again soon. How's progress? I haven't found a copy of Yachting World. Is the article on line and do you have a URL?
Hi Mark and all the others who responded to my query.
Thank you all for your contributions. Sorry, but somehow they didn't appear or I
wasn't
looking properly when I logged onto the forum before.
Can you please tell me (or point me to the info) the sail configurations
possible with the
Harryproas. I live in an area renowned for light winds, often 3 to 5 knots
getting to 10 -
12 by 3.30pm and then back to 3 knots at dusk.
Thanks again
Richard
The preferred cruising sail combination is the Easyrig. Sail area can be considerably more than what we normally use. One of the advantages of an unstayed rig is that for a given righting moment, the strength of the mast does not need to be increased if it is made higher. Therefore, a 16m mast will not weigh much more than a 14m mast. Boom length is constrained by not hitting the windward hull so cannot be increased by much. This is not a big deal as in light air, there is considerably more breeze up high than down low.
On Elementarry we use a schooner rig. This is working better than I anticipated, but is still to prove itself competitively. It has the disadvantage on the bigger boats of needing a winch (albeit a small one) to trim the sails. Again, these masts can be made much taller if required.
Pictures and details of these can be found on http://www.harryproa.com/ If you cannot find what you are looking for, or need more information, please ask.
Hi Mark and all the others who responded to my query.
Thank you all for your contributions. Sorry, but somehow they didn't appear or I wasn't looking properly when I logged onto the forum before.
Can you please tell me (or point me to the info) the sail configurations possible with the Harryproas. I live in an area renowned for light winds, often 3 to 5 knots getting to 10 - 12 by 3.30pm and then back to 3 knots at dusk.
Hi Rob
Ref captioned picture in article
As a botanistI was suprised to see they had the same mangroves in the
canals of Holland as they do in North coast NSW,
Looking forward to seeing fold out cockpit on Elementarry,
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> Thanks for the kind words.
>
> I have uploaded a copy of the article to the Files section of the
Harryproa chat group.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Luke Timmermans
> To: harryproa@...
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Digest Number 331
>
>
> Having had a good look at John's Visionarry on the North Coast
the thing that impressed me most was that this is a boat that is big,
simple, light and looks fast standing still(and very futuristic). It
doesn't have a huge amount of room inside for its waterline length; I
would say as much as a 36-38ft cruising bridgedeck cat or a 40-42ft
performance cat; but it should outperform the latter and be way
cheaper to build than either. It is better than a cat for forward
visibility and has a great "veranda"; the tramps are an integrated
part of your living/socialising space and could be fully enclosed
(perhaps using the boom for support) while at anchor for even more
living space. The leeward hull has a suprising amount of usable room
and would be perfect for accomodating older kids; it doesn't need to
be flared and this would add weight and alot of build time. I think
the end berth in the windward hull could easily contain 2 kids bunks.
The bridgedeck had just enough headroom for
> me (I'm 6'2") and comfortable seating for 4-5 around the settee.
Nav Table and electronics are protected and very accessible.
> Perhaps the most beautiful thing about the boat is the rig,
incredible for its simplicity. It has yet to be fully tested on the
visionarry and no doubt there will be teething problems, but its been
well thought out. The option of kite sails will add a bit of
excitement.
> Access to a 20m shed is my main stumbling block at the moment!
> BTW thank you Mark for your time showing me around the boat, and
we hope to get up again soon. How's progress?
> I haven't found a copy of Yachting World. Is the article on line
and do you have a URL?
>
> Luke Timmermans
> Twiggy Tri
>
> 16 myee place
> forresters beach 2260
> 0242856387
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Hi richard,
I have to start first but hoping to start building by the end of the
year. I am just about to move to Darwin and will take a little while to
establish myself, but how long it takes to build is in the laps of the
gods-20hours a week a cuple of years at least. Rob suggested that going
from a wet area to a dry area there can be some print through and so to
ave the fairing till thing settle down should save a couple of months
to getting to the water
Robert
>
> Thanks for all you help. When will your boat be ready?
>
> Richard
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
Snip
> On Elementarry we use a schooner rig. This is working better than
I anticipated, but is still to prove itself competitively. It has
the disadvantage on the bigger boats of needing a winch (albeit a
small one) to trim the sails.
How big a winch and what sort of price is needed and would they
double up to help haul in the anchor rope.
In trimming the schooner rig, how much variaton is there between the
size of the slot in varying pointing angles sea conditions and wind
strength or could the sheets of the two be coupled.
Again, these masts can be made much taller if required.
>
> Pictures and details of these can be found on
http://www.harryproa.com/ If you cannot find what you are looking
for, or need more information, please ask.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jocroome
> To: harryproa@...
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:36 PM
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Design questions
>
>
> Hi Mark and all the others who responded to my query.
>
> Thank you all for your contributions. Sorry, but somehow they
didn't appear or I wasn't
> looking properly when I logged onto the forum before.
>
> Can you please tell me (or point me to the info) the sail
configurations possible with the
> Harryproas. I live in an area renowned for light winds, often 3
to 5 knots getting to 10 -
> 12 by 3.30pm and then back to 3 knots at dusk.
>
> Thanks again
>
> Richard
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Matt wrote the article without consulting us, so there were a few errors, and those questions at the end. Following is an email I sent him.
G'day,
Got it. An excellent article, thank you very much. No problem, but just so you know, the boat in the picture is Visionarry #2 on the Bellingen river in northern New South Wales, Australia. There is a picture of Blind Date on the web page and on the press release I sent you last week.
You would be welcome for a ride on Blind Date next time you are in Holland (northern side of Ijsselmeer, couple of hours drive from Amsterdam). They will not have a mast for a month or so, but do have my 90 sqm Outleader to stop them getting bored. Launched from the deck, trimmed with the sheets wrapped round the mooring cleats, lotsa fun.
#2 will be sailing very soon. I will let you know exactly when.
For future reference, the answers to your questions are:
Bad weather behaviour is unknown, but if the major cause of problems is tired, cold, scared crew, it will be better than anything else out there.
Heaving too is no problem. Let one sheet go, drop the jib (and the main if it is going to be really hairy), sheet the main at 90 degrees to the hull, lift the rudders and you have a 15m x 8.5 m raft, drawing 400 mm with a 60 sq m weathercock keeping the ww hull upwind. Quiet, stable and safer than most, I think.
Handling at close quarters under engine is a buzz. On Blind Date there is one 20 hp motor in the middle (fore and aft and athwartships) of the boat. To leave a jetty you angle both rudders about 30 degrees the same way, put it in gear and crab sideways off the jetty. With about 10 knots blowing us onto the wharf, the fenders rotated about half a turn before we were clear. The boat turns in 1.5 boat lengths at speed, and except for short periods, does not need to be steered in reverse as the rudders can be fully rotated. #2 has 2 x 25 hp outboards, so is even easier.
Nav lights are a proa drawback. Two sets are needed, mounted on short masts towards the ends of the long hull. They can be switched manually or with a simple sensor on the mast when it rotates.
Harbour masters tend to be so enthralled they give you mooring for free! That is what happened to Jan. Lelystad Marina is a sponsor.
No matter how you convince your wife to get time for a blind date, do not suggest she accompanies you. Otherwise, you may end up buying one!
If you are looking for something a bit different next year, Rudolph and I are taking Blind Date to Denmark for the Sjaelland Runt. You would be welcome to crew.
As a botanistI was suprised to see they had the same mangroves in the canals of Holland as they do in North coast NSW,
Looking forward to seeing fold out cockpit on Elementarry,
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote: > G'day, > > Thanks for the kind words. > > I have uploaded a copy of the article to the Files section of the Harryproa chat group. > > regards, > > Rob > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Luke Timmermans > To: harryproa@... > Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:02 AM > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Digest Number 331 > > > Having had a good look at John's Visionarry on the North Coast the thing that impressed me most was that this is a boat that is big, simple, light and looks fast standing still(and very futuristic). It doesn't have a huge amount of room inside for its waterline length; I would say as much as a 36-38ft cruising bridgedeck cat or a 40-42ft performance cat; but it should outperform the latter and be way cheaper to build than either. It is better than a cat for forward visibility and has a great "veranda"; the tramps are an integrated part of your living/socialising space and could be fully enclosed (perhaps using the boom for support) while at anchor for even more living space. The leeward hull has a suprising amount of usable room and would be perfect for accomodating older kids; it doesn't need to be flared and this would add weight and alot of build time. I think the end berth in the windward hull could easily contain 2 kids bunks. The bridgedeck had just enough headroom for > me (I'm 6'2") and comfortable seating for 4-5 around the settee. Nav Table and electronics are protected and very accessible. > Perhaps the most beautiful thing about the boat is the rig, incredible for its simplicity. It has yet to be fully tested on the visionarry and no doubt there will be teething problems, but its been well thought out. The option of kite sails will add a bit of excitement. > Access to a 20m shed is my main stumbling block at the moment! > BTW thank you Mark for your time showing me around the boat, and we hope to get up again soon. How's progress? > I haven't found a copy of Yachting World. Is the article on line and do you have a URL? > > Luke Timmermans > Twiggy Tri > > 16 myee place > forresters beach 2260 > 0242856387 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > harryproa-unsubscribe@... > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
The booms are bonded to the masts, so the main sheet is only altering the angle of attack, not tensioning the leech. Therefore, the winch size is what would normally be used for a traveller, but without the friction of the track. Up to 12 knots of breeze, I use 1:1 purchase on Elementarry. 2:1 handles it the rest of the time. On a Harry, a small single speed would suffice, but I would go with a small two speed to allow them to be used for pulling up anchors and crew up the mast, although with the lack of fittings on the mast, this would be virtually unnecessary, except for fun. Not sure of the price, but they are often advertised on Ebay, or can be found in "Yacht Grot" type shops.
I am still learning about the slot, but close hauled, the sails are sheeted very much like a jib and main. Rear sail on the centreline, front one about 6-10 degrees ease. As you bear away, the angles get more similar, although it is not easy to judge. You could probably rig a single sheet setup, but I would include an adjustment. The other big advantage of the schooner is that you can trim the sails individually to steer the boat, which is particularly handy if you have no way on and are near head to wind, or in shallow water.
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote: > G'day, Snip > On Elementarry we use a schooner rig. This is working better than I anticipated, but is still to prove itself competitively. It has the disadvantage on the bigger boats of needing a winch (albeit a small one) to trim the sails.
How big a winch and what sort of price is needed and would they double up to help haul in the anchor rope. In trimming the schooner rig, how much variaton is there between the size of the slot in varying pointing angles sea conditions and wind strength or could the sheets of the two be coupled.
Again, these masts can be made much taller if required. > > Pictures and details of these can be found on http://www.harryproa.com/ If you cannot find what you are looking for, or need more information, please ask. > > Regards, > > Rob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jocroome > To: harryproa@... > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 5:36 PM > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Design questions > > > Hi Mark and all the others who responded to my query. > > Thank you all for your contributions. Sorry, but somehow they didn't appear or I wasn't > looking properly when I logged onto the forum before. > > Can you please tell me (or point me to the info) the sail configurations possible with the > Harryproas. I live in an area renowned for light winds, often 3 to 5 knots getting to 10 - > 12 by 3.30pm and then back to 3 knots at dusk. > > Thanks again > > Richard > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > harryproa-unsubscribe@... > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Thanks Rob,
The steerability in shalow water is a good point
snip
. The other big advantage of the schooner is that you can trim the
sails individually to steer the boat, which is particularly handy if
you have no way on and are near head to wind, or in shallow water.
>
In shallow water with little or no rudders down , can the boat still
point. I would assume that in spite of the shallow draft, the lack of
rocker would still give good tracking.
I read recently, I think it was in the Australian Multihull World
talking about the Wide Bay bar, about a cat pitch poling from surfing
in and digging its bows in the sand. I was wondering about how the
lack of rocker on a Harryproa would fare in similar circumstance. I
am tossing up between; better as the lack of rocker means lower COG
nad earlier and gentlerlift and acceleration; and worse as the bows
would dig in sooner. Overall I feel it would fare better from a wave
overtaking and worse if you overtook the wave and surfed down its
face.
Any views after taking Elementarry through the surf?
Robert
>
A difficult one to answer. I didn't notice any tendency to dig the Elementarry in while surfing at Coffs Harbour but the waves weren't very steep. The Lightwave that capsized was probably heavily loaded being on it's first leg of a cruise to SE Asia. These cats are typical of what we are not about, short hulls, high volume. If the Ligtwave had another 10 ft on the bows it may not have dug in far enough to hit the bottom. Anyway, I'm sure a sensible proa sailor wouldn't be negotiating the notorious Wide Bay bar before sunrise at low tide.
Thanks Rob, The steerability in shalow water is a good point
snip
. The other big advantage of the schooner is that you can trim the sails individually to steer the boat, which is particularly handy if you have no way on and are near head to wind, or in shallow water. >
In shallow water with little or no rudders down , can the boat still point. I would assume that in spite of the shallow draft, the lack of rocker would still give good tracking.
I read recently, I think it was in the Australian Multihull World talking about the Wide Bay bar, about a cat pitch poling from surfing in and digging its bows in the sand. I was wondering about how the lack of rocker on a Harryproa would fare in similar circumstance. I am tossing up between; better as the lack of rocker means lower COG nad earlier and gentlerlift and acceleration; and worse as the bows would dig in sooner. Overall I feel it would fare better from a wave overtaking and worse if you overtook the wave and surfed down its face. Any views after taking Elementarry through the surf? Robert
I have not done any real sailing with both rudders up, will do next time I go out, maybe this Sunday (Doug, I will give you a call). Suspect it will point ok, but will have large leeway. Last time I was out, I did sail upwind with only the aft rudder. No obvious leeway, but no boats to compare with, either.
I have not done any serious surfing yet (have a look at http://home.tiscali.nl/marsan/texel2005.wmv to find out what we would have had to go through at Texel this year) but don't think it will be a problem. The boats that suffer tend to be short for their sail area/centre of effort. We are very long. The rocker is good if you sit on the back part, not so good if you sit on the front. As long as you are ahead of the wave, I guess you tend to sit on the back, but as soon as the wave catches up, you sit on the front and down you go.
What is really good about harryproas in surf is that you can use the rig to slow you down. This is generally impossible with a stayed rig, where you can only ease the sails so far and your speed is then dictated by the breeze. Ideally, you sail in just behind a wave, using the sheets to keep you in position. We did this in the (small) surf at Coffs and it worked a treat. The acceleration possible with direct or 2:1 sheeting and a light boat also increases your options. It is safer to sail faster than the wave and allow your rudders to work, rather than be pushed along at the same speed as the wave.
regards,
rob
In shallow water with little or no rudders down , can the boat still point. I would assume that in spite of the shallow draft, the lack of rocker would still give good tracking.
I read recently, I think it was in the Australian Multihull World talking about the Wide Bay bar, about a cat pitch poling from surfing in and digging its bows in the sand. I was wondering about how the lack of rocker on a Harryproa would fare in similar circumstance. I am tossing up between; better as the lack of rocker means lower COG nad earlier and gentlerlift and acceleration; and worse as the bows would dig in sooner. Overall I feel it would fare better from a wave overtaking and worse if you overtook the wave and surfed down its face. Any views after taking Elementarry through the surf? Robert
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