I am curious about the difference between the dirty air from a wing
sail with minimal standing rigging and the slot from a jib.
Robert Dalton

I understand the need for twin masts in some cases and some of the
Warram designs lend themselves very well to this. I would suggest that
cruising designs would derive the greatest benefit from 2 masts. And yes
times are a changing so maybe we will see a different idea come to the
fore as technology changes. As we are seeing with the surge of interest
in proa's with a modern touch.
Rgs
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@...]
Sent: Friday, 29 August 2003 8:40 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts


   good day tony


   > A few points to consider with twin masts as well are

   1 Twice as many fittings, cleats, halyards etc


   but are all smaller
   and some you wont need it all because of

   2 Twice the outlay for those bits


   ????


   3 One more thing to do when shunting


   but not even needing half the time for it !


   4 Twice the mast building to be done


   but a lighter one


   5 Evidence of race success is usually limited to pre 1960(we are now
beyond 2000)


   times they are a changing


   6 Twice the rigging time


   or less !
   with them being lighter


   7 Twice as many things to go wrong


   and to have a spare !


   8 Murphies law gets two goes at ya in that area
   Yes there are some benefits but not enough to warrant changing


   that depends entirely on the purpose of the boat !

   regards fritz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Best thing is to come and have a look for yourself and determine what's
best
One thing I can guarantee you is you will want to stay and the country
is so big I'm sure you will find what you want
We also have a large proportion of the successful multihull design
community down this way
Your winter is approaching so pack your swimmers and get on a
plane/boat/ship as soon as you can
Rgs
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@...]
Sent: Friday, 29 August 2003 7:55 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: basic support


   good day tony

   > Fritz the wages in WA are on par with the rest of Australia


   but not the US ?
   europe ?


   As for deserted beach good luck.

   I wrote >
   a desert beach
   one with a desert behind


   If it isn't privately owned then the
   authorities will give you a hard time and if you do find one it won't
be
   near anything like civilisation.


   there has to be a place you can buy ....

   Better to make friends with a property owner on one of our many rivers

   and buying property there ?

   Convert your euro's to Aussie dollars and you could probably get some
   one to build it for you.

   building boats is for me as much fun as sailing them
   so I wont go for this

   regards fritz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

good day richard

   > One problem with a forum like this is when people confuse their opinions and
beliefs with hard evidence and knowledge ........


   that will be so
   most every place else


   > it'd be nice if opinions were preceeded with IMO - in my opinion!


   yes
   if they are


   > We all have ideas and I don't want to stiffle them, but for example Rob's
comments about dirty air are (IMO) facts,


   this is a widely accepted fact
   only his implication is some what faulty


   > yet there were opposing views implied as facts also .....


   and some where so
   others not

   what I am missing
   is continuing the sorting out process
   to come to a conclusion about the facts

   nobody seems to want to really know them .....?

   how about it ?

   I wrote a lot on it
   so you can just go from there ...

   regards fritz






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Col

This message was returned so I'll try it this way.

Regards

Rudolf
----- Original Message -----
From: R vd Brug <rpvdb@...>
To: colcampey <cjcampey@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Dutch rig


> Hello Col,
>
> The rig I mentioned was featured in a Dutch yachting magazine called
> ''Zeilen", Email adress info@...., # 12-2002. It is called
> ''Swingrig'' and has been designed by Cees van Tongeren of  Van de Stadt
> Design.
>
> Rob allready reacted he thinks building a prebent mast is difficult in his
> building system. This prototype was built in cedar strip with carbon which
> makes things easier I imagine. Of course the mast could be made straight,
> but a balanced rig to me seems worth something. The wingmast should
improve
> performance on a Visionarry.
>
> Hope you can get something out of this, good luck
>
> Regards,
>
> Rudolf
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: colcampey <cjcampey@...>
> To: <rpvdb@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 11:51 PM
> Subject: Dutch rig
>
>
> > Hi Rudolf,
> >
> > I'm about to start the construction of a Visionarry.
> > Rob and I haven't decided on what type of rig it will have so I am
> > very interested in the balanced single sail Dutch rig you wrote about
> > in Harryfile.
> > Can you tell me where I can find out more about it?
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> >
> > Col Campey
> >
> >
>

Dear all,

Some of you know me already from the Multihull list, I
will follow comments here as well because they could
be relevant to my project.
Please visit my pages to know more about it (its not a
proa but one option would make it an asymmetrical
catamaran).
http://www.geocities.com/jp_br/
An update is being prepared and will soon be linked,
in the mean time here is a preview:
http://www.geocities.com/jp_br/Prestudy/Cat-Prestudy.html
Have a good day,

Jean Philippe

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

One problem with a forum like this is when people confuse their opinions and
beliefs with hard evidence and knowledge ........ it's be nice if opinions were
preceeded with IMO - in my opinion!

We all have ideas and I don't want to stiffle them, but for example
Rob'scomments about dirty air are (IMO) facts, yet there were opposing views
implied as facts also .....



---------------------------------
Yahoo! Search
- Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day,
Correct in all three assessments!  And those were the definites, a whole
bunch of maybes, plus another bunch waiting to see the Visionarry sail, or
me win (compete in would probably suffice!) some races.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "proaconstrictor" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 2:01 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Harryproa Latest Update


> O.K. You have convinced me, you are way under-staffed, tearing off in
> all directions.  Looks like fun though.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

O.K. You have convinced me, you are way under-staffed, tearing off in
all directions.  Looks like fun though.

good day tony


   > A few points to consider with twin masts as well are

   1 Twice as many fittings, cleats, halyards etc


   but are all smaller
   and some you wont need it all because of

   2 Twice the outlay for those bits


   ????


   3 One more thing to do when shunting


   but not even needing half the time for it !


   4 Twice the mast building to be done


   but a lighter one


   5 Evidence of race success is usually limited to pre 1960(we are now beyond
2000)


   times they are a changing


   6 Twice the rigging time


   or less !
   with them being lighter


   7 Twice as many things to go wrong


   and to have a spare !


   8 Murphies law gets two goes at ya in that area
   Yes there are some benefits but not enough to warrant changing


   that depends entirely on the purpose of the boat !

   regards fritz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> G'day Rob,
>
> I think one of the best features of harryproas is the ability to isolate
> specific functions of the boat, & mix & match to suit what is required at
> the time.  A visionarry with minimal "rule complying" windward hull, doing
> the Brisbane to Gladstone race competetively, & then swapping to a
> comfortable cruising windward hull, & going on to cruise the Whitsundays
> sounds pretty cool to me.

Absolutely.
>
> With this in mind I think we should keep the accomodation out of
> elementarry's lee hull & use it as the " engine "  and attach different "
> carriages " as required.  K.C.C has a series of sprint races that
> elementarry using the "disk" hull would be eligible to enter.  This would
be
> a good chance to de-bug & tune the boat.  It will be reassuring to have a
> rescue boat on hand !!  Once it is sorted out I would then build the
> accomodation hull for the longer o'night races.  We will have more time to
> find out what will be acceptable to the authorities by then.

Sounds good.
>
> On the basis that boats are never big enough I would be happy to go with
the
> 10m version,  17m would kill the budget :-(

If we use the same hull sections as for the 8, there will be some reserve
for the windward hull.
>
> I don't share your confidence that a single sail will be sufficient
> downwind.  Any chance we could use a kite like the kite surfers use?  Or a
> single line deploy / retrieve ass. spin. in a tube that could be rotated
> about the boats centreline ?

A windsurfer kite is too hard to deploy and retrieve (been there, done
that, got the scars!).  Next month I am visiting Dave Culp in San Francisco.
http://www.kiteship.com/home1.asp
He has a deployable kite which works, but he does not make , and is not
planning to make  any
small versions.  The smallest is 40 sq m, ($5,000, I will be buyinmg one as
soon as a few more sets of plans are sold, or can bring one back for anyone
in Aus who is interested) which will give you plenty of
power, but is a lot of extra stuff to lug around the track.  I will have a
better handle on this when I return in mid October.  An ass spi is also
possible, and would be fairly easy to sort out.  I agree the extra sail
would be noice downwind, I am just not convinced it pays for the losses
upwind.  Time will tell, I guess.
>
> I would much prefer a mainsail that can be reefed.

No problem, but it adds some weight and complexity.
>
> As the areas are small I would be happy to try to build it in foam.  I've
> never used foam as a core before so it might be best to start with a small
> item to make sure I can do it.

Excellent idea.  It is not difficult, but does use a vacuum bag for
consolidation.  Much quicker than strip planking in a symmetrical top and
bottom, as wel as sideways hull.  It is also possible that someone else will
buy or hire the moulds from you.
>
> IF this is enough detail of what I'm hoping for,could you please weight &
> price the boat as offered & advise me how to forward payment for the
plans.

I have sent bank details seperately.  I will let you know weights and prices
next week when I can check with the suppliers.
>
> I'm hoping to get up Bellingen way on the October long weekend, will the
> plans & materials list be ready before then ?

Excellent.  There will certainly be enough plans to get you started on the
lee hull and the rudders.  Whether the beam and mast are ready depends on
the engineers, but they should not be far off, and will certainly be ready
when you need them.  I suggest you discuss with Mark the costs of us
building the mast as it will require you to build a half mould which you
will not need again.  A full mould would make a  lighter spar, but is a bit
fraught for a first timer.
   >
> Regards,
>
Rob
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > 2 halves is not a problem.  10m will be fine. There is a design decision
> to
> > make.  We can either go with the 8. 2 m set up, with a longer hull
(slower
> > in light air, faster top speed, will look under rigged) or we can
increase
> > the rig (faster all round, but loads and costs go up pretty quickly),
> which
> > will mean  greater beam (maybe 8m) as more crew is not really an option.
> I
> > think the first would be best, but would love to do the second.
> >
> > Max towing length is 17m.  Could build it in 4 pieces!
> >
> >
> > Can do.  The folding system attaches to the deck, so no sockets are
> > required, demountable only needs a bulkhead, the socket can be attached
> > externally.  We would make a decision on the folding system or
demountable
> > when you had the leeward hull ready to join.
> >
> > On the basis that the accommodation is only 2 bunks and is never going
to
> be
> > used while sailing (the situation in Marley Point, Bay to Bay, Bridge to
> > Bridge and other trailer sailor distance races in Australia), it could
> maybe
> > go in the leeward hull, allowing you to stick with the dish and the
> canting
> > beam on the windward side.  Whether the authorities would let you race
> such
> > a beast would be interesting, although it is no sillier than the
Boatspeed
> > 23 sportsboat (with wings, won't stay upright without crew actively
> > balancing it) on which I have raced 3 Marley Points.  6m wide going
> through
> > The Narrows which are 50m wide, usually light and fluky head winds, with
> 500
> > other  boats at 1 a.m. in the morning will be a lot of fun!  Adding a
> > windward hull on non canting beams may necessitate a balanced rig.
> > >
> >
> > If the mast is sealed, it won't go past 90 degrees, and should be easily
> > righted. It may even blow round to mast head upwind and the windage of
the
> > beam and dish right it for you.  No idea what will happen to the crew in
a
> > capsize, so I certainly wouldn't recommend it.   The boat will lose
speed
> > very quickly as angle of heel increases, so more than the dish skimming
> the
> > water is not to be encouraged.  With none of the drama associated with
> > gybing, (which is where most capsizes happen), it will be a pretty rare
> > event.  Maybe!  If you manage to pitchpole it , I will be amazed, but it
> > should eventually float with the mast at 90 degrees.  You may need to
> > manipulate the canting beam to get it there.
> > >
> >
> > Not easily, and hopefully they won't be necessary.  I would spend the
> money
> > on a bigger main, and work harder on the upwind legs.  If I am wrong,
then
> a
> > furled screecher could be pulled out to the lee hull bow, and sheeted to
> the
> > end of the main boom.  Probably more of a light air sail than a general
> off
> > wind one.
> > >
> >
> > Should be.  The sails are the expensive bit, followed by the mast.
> >
> > Cost (in $Aus) and weight breakdown is something like:
> >
> > 14 sq m leeward hull:   In foam/glass $60 per sq m weighing 2.24 kgs per
> sq
> > m  or kiri/glass $40 per sq m  weighing 3.12 kgs.  The foam will also
have
> > mould costs ($100-$200) but won't need fairing. Both will need some
> internal
> > frames/bulkheads, add another 3 sq m.  Add 10% for waste.  Foam $1,100
and
> > 38 kgs/85 lbs.  Kiri $750 and 53 kgs/120 lbs.
> >
> > Beam and dish :  In solid foam/glass/uni carbon, maybe $1,000.  Probably
> > half this, but heavier, in kiri/glass.
> >
> > Rudders, maybe $500 in kiri and carbon.
> >
> > Mast:  Build it yourself, $1,500, buy it, maybe $4,000.
> >
> > Sail:  Depends on materials, but needs to be better than dacron.  Maybe
> > $5,000.  On the fun machine, this will be rigged like a windsurfer.  On
> the
> > Marley Point version, it will need a halyard, and maybe a reef.
> >
> > Bearings, tillers and extensions, stay, main sheet, wishbone, paint,
maybe
> > some beefing up after the first sail  and anything I have forgotten:
> Maybe
> > another $2,000
> >
> > If you need to build a minimal ww hull and beams, can add another
$1,000.
> > Plans $750 as it is a prototype.
> >
> > Add 10% gst.
> >
> > A lot of maybes and approximations in this, but once we settle on some
> > parameters, I will cost and weight it exactly.  Materials costs are
based
> on
> > what we pay.  We can supply these, but you may need to go to Bellingen
to
> > decant the resin and unroll the glass.  Be a good opportunity to check
out
> > the Visionarry.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rob.
> >  >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

good day all of you


   > If, while sailing upwind,  you have a marginally quicker boat approach from
   astern, it will stop gaining on you at about 2 boat lengths (1.5 mast
   lengths) astern.  After this, the interference from your sails, and to a
   lesser extent, your water foils will stop him in his tracks.  Based on this,
   you need a long hull, or short masts to make a schooner work.  This could be
   why, for upwind work, they have never been competitive.


   but the proa has more lenght available


   > This, and the extra
   cost and weight,  rule them out as far as I am concerned.


   1 lenght is enough to make them work well
   since the few % you lose
   are gained by having a lower center of effort

   best idea seems now
   to have the 2 mast sails only for beating
   where you better not have to much sailarea anyway
   since this causes only your apparent wind
   to move to much forward
   then on reaching you put up
   the 2 jibs for additional power
   when you can use all

   one other alternative is to place
   the 2. mast on the outrigger
   then you have no blanketing
   on beating it all
   and can turn on the spot as well

   which you need either way you look at it
   since only then can you beat out a nearrow channel

   this can be a matter of life and death


   >Control over balance is only a problem if the boat is not balanced.


   but with a 2 mast proa
   you can make it better selfsteer !


   Harryproas are.  Turning quickly is handy, but is achieved with 2 large
   rudders which don't have the schooner rig drawbacks.


   large ruders are not going to help you
   turning on the spot
   as you can with 2 independantly controled sails

   where the now rear sail pushed the boat sideways
   without much going forward

   just look at your diagrams


   regards fritz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

good day jim


   > Hi Fritz

   Each time you reply my mailer includes the line:

         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


   this is the way it always will be now
   yahoo does not allow any attachments any more

   > Are you including photos in your replies?

   no
   they are all in the web pages
   www.proadesign.com +



   >If so, we (me at least) don't see them. Perhaps you could add them to your
web sites and provide links as you've done already.

   there is nothing new right now
   except the new 2mast & 3 mast version
   drawings
   but the chances are minor


   >I'm quite interested in certain aspects of your designs, particularly the
staysail attached to the windward hull


   this is also great to turn when standing by


   >and the "hook" foil. I'm wondering whether these might be incorporated into
the smaller Harries


   the moment of inertia is to high for it there
   except the " elemetary version "
   it only works with an light outrigger
   and no other large lateral area
   >>> ruders
   since the boat has to be moving sideways easily
   for the vectorfin to work


   regards fritz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

good day tony

   > Fritz the wages in WA are on par with the rest of Australia


   but not the US ?
   europe ?


   As for deserted beach good luck.

   I wrote >
   a desert beach
   one with a desert behind


   If it isn't privately owned then the
   authorities will give you a hard time and if you do find one it won't be
   near anything like civilisation.


   there has to be a place you can buy ....

   Better to make friends with a property owner on one of our many rivers

   and buying property there ?

   Convert your euro's to Aussie dollars and you could probably get some
   one to build it for you.

   building boats is for me as much fun as sailing them
   so I wont go for this

   regards fritz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day Michele,

I'm still here !!! Optus must have had a problem as I was offline for a
while.  Maybe you were trying to email me at that time.  Other email is
still coming through.

I intend to visit my parents farm on the long weekend & would make a quick
trip across to Urunga to check out the visionarry & pick up some materials
if convenient.  Unfortunately I have to be back at work at 5am on Tuesday so
will have to give the music festival a miss.

Regards,
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michele M. Balharry" <michele@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:06 PM
Subject: [harryproa] M Francis


> Michael Francis (excuse me, everyone else)  I'd like to send a message off
> group but your optus e-mail address is returned saying you don't exist?
>
> Michele
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

G'day Rob,

I think one of the best features of harryproas is the ability to isolate
specific functions of the boat, & mix & match to suit what is required at
the time.  A visionarry with minimal "rule complying" windward hull, doing
the Brisbane to Gladstone race competetively, & then swapping to a
comfortable cruising windward hull, & going on to cruise the Whitsundays
sounds pretty cool to me.

With this in mind I think we should keep the accomodation out of
elementarry's lee hull & use it as the " engine "  and attach different "
carriages " as required.  K.C.C has a series of sprint races that
elementarry using the "disk" hull would be eligible to enter.  This would be
a good chance to de-bug & tune the boat.  It will be reassuring to have a
rescue boat on hand !!  Once it is sorted out I would then build the
accomodation hull for the longer o'night races.  We will have more time to
find out what will be acceptable to the authorities by then.

On the basis that boats are never big enough I would be happy to go with the
10m version,  17m would kill the budget :-(

I don't share your confidence that a single sail will be sufficient
downwind.  Any chance we could use a kite like the kite surfers use?  Or a
single line deploy / retrieve ass. spin. in a tube that could be rotated
about the boats centreline ?

I would much prefer a mainsail that can be reefed.

As the areas are small I would be happy to try to build it in foam.  I've
never used foam as a core before so it might be best to start with a small
item to make sure I can do it.

IF this is enough detail of what I'm hoping for,could you please weight &
price the boat as offered & advise me how to forward payment for the plans.

I'm hoping to get up Bellingen way on the October long weekend, will the
plans & materials list be ready before then ?

Regards,

Michael



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability


>
>
>
> 2 halves is not a problem.  10m will be fine. There is a design decision
to
> make.  We can either go with the 8. 2 m set up, with a longer hull (slower
> in light air, faster top speed, will look under rigged) or we can increase
> the rig (faster all round, but loads and costs go up pretty quickly),
which
> will mean  greater beam (maybe 8m) as more crew is not really an option.
I
> think the first would be best, but would love to do the second.
>
> Max towing length is 17m.  Could build it in 4 pieces!
>
>
> Can do.  The folding system attaches to the deck, so no sockets are
> required, demountable only needs a bulkhead, the socket can be attached
> externally.  We would make a decision on the folding system or demountable
> when you had the leeward hull ready to join.
>
> On the basis that the accommodation is only 2 bunks and is never going to
be
> used while sailing (the situation in Marley Point, Bay to Bay, Bridge to
> Bridge and other trailer sailor distance races in Australia), it could
maybe
> go in the leeward hull, allowing you to stick with the dish and the
canting
> beam on the windward side.  Whether the authorities would let you race
such
> a beast would be interesting, although it is no sillier than the Boatspeed
> 23 sportsboat (with wings, won't stay upright without crew actively
> balancing it) on which I have raced 3 Marley Points.  6m wide going
through
> The Narrows which are 50m wide, usually light and fluky head winds, with
500
> other  boats at 1 a.m. in the morning will be a lot of fun!  Adding a
> windward hull on non canting beams may necessitate a balanced rig.
> >
>
> If the mast is sealed, it won't go past 90 degrees, and should be easily
> righted. It may even blow round to mast head upwind and the windage of the
> beam and dish right it for you.  No idea what will happen to the crew in a
> capsize, so I certainly wouldn't recommend it.   The boat will lose speed
> very quickly as angle of heel increases, so more than the dish skimming
the
> water is not to be encouraged.  With none of the drama associated with
> gybing, (which is where most capsizes happen), it will be a pretty rare
> event.  Maybe!  If you manage to pitchpole it , I will be amazed, but it
> should eventually float with the mast at 90 degrees.  You may need to
> manipulate the canting beam to get it there.
> >
>
> Not easily, and hopefully they won't be necessary.  I would spend the
money
> on a bigger main, and work harder on the upwind legs.  If I am wrong, then
a
> furled screecher could be pulled out to the lee hull bow, and sheeted to
the
> end of the main boom.  Probably more of a light air sail than a general
off
> wind one.
> >
>
> Should be.  The sails are the expensive bit, followed by the mast.
>
> Cost (in $Aus) and weight breakdown is something like:
>
> 14 sq m leeward hull:   In foam/glass $60 per sq m weighing 2.24 kgs per
sq
> m  or kiri/glass $40 per sq m  weighing 3.12 kgs.  The foam will also have
> mould costs ($100-$200) but won't need fairing. Both will need some
internal
> frames/bulkheads, add another 3 sq m.  Add 10% for waste.  Foam $1,100 and
> 38 kgs/85 lbs.  Kiri $750 and 53 kgs/120 lbs.
>
> Beam and dish :  In solid foam/glass/uni carbon, maybe $1,000.  Probably
> half this, but heavier, in kiri/glass.
>
> Rudders, maybe $500 in kiri and carbon.
>
> Mast:  Build it yourself, $1,500, buy it, maybe $4,000.
>
> Sail:  Depends on materials, but needs to be better than dacron.  Maybe
> $5,000.  On the fun machine, this will be rigged like a windsurfer.  On
the
> Marley Point version, it will need a halyard, and maybe a reef.
>
> Bearings, tillers and extensions, stay, main sheet, wishbone, paint, maybe
> some beefing up after the first sail  and anything I have forgotten:
Maybe
> another $2,000
>
> If you need to build a minimal ww hull and beams, can add another $1,000.
> Plans $750 as it is a prototype.
>
> Add 10% gst.
>
> A lot of maybes and approximations in this, but once we settle on some
> parameters, I will cost and weight it exactly.  Materials costs are based
on
> what we pay.  We can supply these, but you may need to go to Bellingen to
> decant the resin and unroll the glass.  Be a good opportunity to check out
> the Visionarry.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob.
>  >
> >
> >

G'day Jim,

What a small world.  I live at Sydenham which is about 5 min. from Newtown
( provided King St isn't clogged with traffic )

Your most welcome to drop in any-time.  I'm sure I'll be able to find a
spare sheet of sandpaper for you to perfect your fairing technique with,  &
maybe a beer or 3 to sustain you :-)  Let me know when your comming & I'll
forward my phone # .

The kayak I'm building is a " Great Auk "  from a book called " The Strip
Built Sea Kayak " by Nick Schade. There are offsets for 3 different kayaks
plus full instructions on their construction, he claims that you can build a
kayak using just this book which is what I've done.  I just hope it doesn't
sink when it's launched !!!  It's built out of 19mm x 6mm western red cedar
strips covered with 200gsm woven glass cloth.

Regards
Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baltaxe" <Jim.Baltaxe@...>
To: "michael francis" <mi_francis@...>
Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 9:27 AM
Subject: RE: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability


> Hi Michael
>
> I'm also insterested in building an Elementarry with some accommodation
(for camping rather than racing) as a pilot project in prep for building an
extended Harry. While I'm located in Wellington my partner's daughter lives
in Sydney (Newtown) and we visit regularly. If or when you do get started on
the Elementarry, I'd appreciate it if I could drop by one day to see how you
are getting on with it.
>
> BTW I'm also planning to build a strip kayak, from Ted Morre's book,
Kayakcraft, and I'm wondering whether we are interested in the same boat.
I'm looking at the two man version, although I've forgotten the name at the
moment.
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
> ITS Desktop Support
> Victoria University of Wellington
> NEW ZEALAND
> (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
> Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: michael francis [mailto:mi_francis@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 August 2003 9:38
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: Re: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability
> >
> >
> > G'day Rob,
> > I think the racing version would be the best option for this
> > sized proa.
> > The question is who would I race against?
> > I currently own a seawind 24 cat & race in the cruising
> > division at Kurnell
> > Cat. Club.  The proa would need to have some basic accomodation to be
> > eligible to race in this division.  I'll find out what is the minimum
> > required & let you know.  I'd also like to be able to race
> > further afield in
> > events like the Trailerable Multi. Nationals, Marlay Point
> > etc. so it will
> > have to be trailable.  Folding beams would make launching
> > quicker & easier,
> > & are therefore a desired option if they aren't too
> > complicated to build.
> >
> > As the main reason for building this boat will be to guage my
> > potential to
> > build a Vissionarry I am happy for it to be a prototyping
> > opportunity for
> > both of us.  However as I'm running a business (which I hope
> > to sell soon) &
> > am not a professional boat builder it may take some time
> > complete. Or if I
> > get the s_ _ _s with it I might end up putting an axe through
> > it & ordering
> > a professionally built Visionarry :-)
> >
> > As you probably guessed by the reference to Kurnell, I'm in Sydney.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 12:02 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability
> >
> >
> > >> Hope this is clear.  Please let me know what sort of boat
> > you require,
> > and
> > > we can discuss the next step. I notice you have an Aus
> > address.  Where
> > > abouts are you?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Rob----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "michael francis" <mi_francis@...>
> > > To: <harryproa@...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 4:12 PM
> > > Subject: [Harryproa] Elementarry availability
> > >
> > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > > I'm just putting the finishing touches to a 5.5m strip
> > kayak & provided
> > it
> > > doesn't sink on launching would like to build an
> > elementarry to test the
> > > proa concept & my building abilities.
> > > > Are elementarry plans available or is it to be a moulded
> > production
> > model
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

I'll agree tony, with some comments... (apologies for the
obvious lack of harryproa context, I'll try and shutup
after this :-)

> A few points to consider with twin masts as well are
> 1 Twice as many fittings, cleats, halyards etc

True, but they're smaller :-)

> 2 Twice the outlay for those bits

Sort of true. Remember they're usually one or two sizes smaller
and thus cheaper. Also, at least on the Jarcat 7, it means we
can get away with no winch - yep, no winch on a 77 racing boat!

> 3 One more thing to do when shunting
> 4 Twice the mast building to be done

Orribly true :-)

> 5 Evidence of race success is usually limited to pre 1960(we
> are now beyond 2000)

Well, two wins in the Bay-to-Bay here in Qld (on handicap, we're
not trying to do line honours against AU$100+ 30 footers) over the
last 5 years.

> 6 Twice the rigging time

Yah, but it means fewer hands when it *does* come to raise the
devils. However I agree for the J7 - I'd prefer one mast to raise.
BTW, the first mast can be used to raise the second; it's getting
that first one up in the air though...

> 7 Twice as many things to go wrong
> 8 Murphies law gets two goes at ya in that
> area Yes there are some benefits but not enough to warrant changing

Another advantage is that if you lose one mast, like when someone
forgets to check whether everything is tight at the hounds, you
have a spare to come home with :-)

Robert

A few points to consider with twin masts as well are
1 Twice as many fittings, cleats, halyards etc
2 Twice the outlay for those bits
3 One more thing to do when shunting
4 Twice the mast building to be done
5 Evidence of race success is usually limited to pre 1960(we are now beyond
2000)
6 Twice the rigging time
7 Twice as many things to go wrong
8 Murphies law gets two goes at ya in that area
Yes there are some benefits but not enough to warrant changing

----- Original Message -----
   From: Rob Denney
   To: harryproa@...
   Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 1:05 PM
   Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts


   G'day,

   If, while sailing upwind,  you have a marginally quicker boat approach from
   astern, it will stop gaining on you at about 2 boat lengths (1.5 mast
   lengths) astern.  After this, the interference from your sails, and to a
   lesser extent, your water foils will stop him in his tracks.  Based on this,
   you need a long hull, or short masts to make a schooner work.  This could be
   why, for upwind work, they have never been competitive.  This, and the extra
   cost and weight,  rule them out as far as I am concerned.

   Control over balance is only a problem if the boat is not balanced.
   Harryproas are.  Turning quickly is handy, but is achieved with 2 large
   rudders which don't have the schooner rig drawbacks.

   regards,

   Rob.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: "fritz roth" <fritz.roth@...>
   To: <harryproa@...>
   Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 10:56 PM
   Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts


   >
   >   good day all
   >
   >   > but the main
   >   problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not
   contribute
   >   much.
   >
   >
   >   two masts are working fine
   >   if the space between
   >   the two masts is large enough
   >   so as to have a large gap between
   >   the two following sails
   >
   >   then you will have not only
   >   a better control over balance
   >   but also you can change directions much faster
   >   by forcing the boat around
   >   with the then rear rig pulled tight
   >
   >
   >
   >   regards fritz
   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
   >
   >
   >
   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   >
   >
   >


   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   harryproa-unsubscribe@...



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Everyone,

Delighted to bring you the latest developments at the Harryproa website.
http://www.harryproa.com/

1. Newsletter from Rob including Plan sales, Elementarry, Round Texel Race
entry, Rudders http://www.harryproa.com/news6.htm

2. Round Texel Race proa design details by Rob
http://www.harryproa.com/Texel/texel.htm

3. Location Map of Harryproas Around the World
http://www.harryproa.com/a_map/Map.htm

4. Pictorial Report 3 of Building the Visionarry in Australia
http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_3.htm


Cheers,

     Michele


************************
Michele Balharry
Harryproa Pty. Ltd.
ph: +61 02 6655 2016
fax: +61 02 6655 9994
e-mail: michele@...
web site: www.harryproa.com

G'day,

If, while sailing upwind,  you have a marginally quicker boat approach from
astern, it will stop gaining on you at about 2 boat lengths (1.5 mast
lengths) astern.  After this, the interference from your sails, and to a
lesser extent, your water foils will stop him in his tracks.  Based on this,
you need a long hull, or short masts to make a schooner work.  This could be
why, for upwind work, they have never been competitive.  This, and the extra
cost and weight,  rule them out as far as I am concerned.

Control over balance is only a problem if the boat is not balanced.
Harryproas are.  Turning quickly is handy, but is achieved with 2 large
rudders which don't have the schooner rig drawbacks.

regards,

Rob.
----- Original Message -----
From: "fritz roth" <fritz.roth@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts


>
>   good day all
>
>   > but the main
>   problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not
contribute
>   much.
>
>
>   two masts are working fine
>   if the space between
>   the two masts is large enough
>   so as to have a large gap between
>   the two following sails
>
>   then you will have not only
>   a better control over balance
>   but also you can change directions much faster
>   by forcing the boat around
>   with the then rear rig pulled tight
>
>
>
>   regards fritz
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> > OK so how much gap is enough or how do we arrive at a method of
> > determining such!!
> >
> > For the schooner are we talking EasyRig or a windsurfer
> type rig per
> > mast???.
>
> I was thinking of windsurfer type kinked forward about 5-10 degrees.
> Vertical high aspect wing sails seem to work OK on the Jarcat7 and
> Wharram cats

Work OK, yes. The Jarcat 7 doesn't run any headsails though
(except by very brave and scared people in a Bay-to-Bay race).
There's almost nothing between the back of the forward main
and the front of the second wingmast either.  Well, for at least
the bottom 1/4 - 1/3rd of it's height.

Robert Mc

--- In harryproa@..., "Grona Jr, Robert J."
<PPL_RJG@e...> wrote:
> OK so how much gap is enough or how do we arrive at a method of
> determining such!!
>
> For the schooner are we talking EasyRig or a windsurfer type rig per
> mast???.


I was thinking of windsurfer type kinked forward about 5-10 degrees.
Vertical high aspect wing sails seem to work OK on the Jarcat7 and
Wharram cats

Robert




>
> Thanks Bob G.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@p...]
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:57 AM
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts
>
>
>
>   good day all
>
>   > but the main
>   problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not
> contribute
>   much.
>
>
>   two masts are working fine
>   if the space between
>   the two masts is large enough
>   so as to have a large gap between
>   the two following sails
>
>   then you will have not only
>   a better control over balance
>   but also you can change directions much faster
>   by forcing the boat around
>   with the then rear rig pulled tight
>
>
>
>   regards fritz
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fritz the wages in WA are on par with the rest of Australia
As for deserted beach good luck. If it isn't privately owned then the
authorities will give you a hard time and if you do find one it won't be
near anything like civilisation.
Better to make friends with a property owner on one of our many rivers
Convert your euro's to Aussie dollars and you could probably get some
one to build it for you.
Rgs Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@...]
Sent: Thursday, 28 August 2003 7:26 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: basic support

   > Hi Fritz
   Any pictures of your boats?

   www.proadesign.com & links there


   > Is that 96 foot long?

   yah !
   its really scary ...

   especially thinking about it
   driving down the road with it


   > Where do you live now?


   central europe
   can you imagine the people here
   not dreaming about sailing to paradise
   on a proa ... ?



   > The Americas cup put an end to cheap waterfront land around Perth
and
   the habitable parts of WA nearly 15 years ago


   I gather ....


   > The description of cheap needs to be explained here for some of our
   overseas people.
   In relation to the Euro or US dollar it is still very cheap. That is
   just one reason why people from overseas get boats built here.
   But if you live and work in Australia it is a lot more expensive and
   unattainable for the average person.


   so wages are not as high in wa ?


   > Don't get me wrong it's a very nice place but the majority of the
   population live on the eastcoast for a good reason. The weather is
   better.


   but building boats on a desert beach
   is possible with out a big shet ....


   > Cruising destinations are more plentiful as well.


   not much of any bays and harbors ?

   but here the proa comes into its own
   you can land on most beaches
   even with the cruising sizes
   and take off from there !

   even in breaking surf ....


   Best way to find what you like is visit and see/feel for yourself


   yah !

   thanks for the information &

   regards fritz




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Fritz

Each time you reply my mailer includes the line:

	 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Are you including photos in your replies? If so, we (me at least) don't see
them. Perhaps you could add them to your web sites and provide links as you've
done already.

I'm quite interested in certain aspects of your designs, particularly the
staysail attached to the windward hull and the "hook" foil. I'm wondering
whether these might be incorporated into the smaller Harries (what the heck IS
the plural of Harry?) or perhaps Gary Dierking's T2.

Enjoy

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


> -----Original Message-----
> From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 28 August 2003 9:26
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: basic support
>
>
>   > Hi Fritz
>   Any pictures of your boats?
>
>   www.proadesign.com & links there
>
>
>   > Is that 96 foot long?
>
>   yah !
>   its really scary ...
>
>   especially thinking about it
>   driving down the road with it
>
>
>   > Where do you live now?
>
>
>   central europe
>   can you imagine the people here
>   not dreaming about sailing to paradise
>   on a proa ... ?
>
>
>
>   > The Americas cup put an end to cheap waterfront land
> around Perth and
>   the habitable parts of WA nearly 15 years ago
>
>
>   I gather ....
>
>
>   > The description of cheap needs to be explained here for
> some of our
>   overseas people.
>   In relation to the Euro or US dollar it is still very cheap. That is
>   just one reason why people from overseas get boats built here.
>   But if you live and work in Australia it is a lot more expensive and
>   unattainable for the average person.
>
>
>   so wages are not as high in wa ?
>
>
>   > Don't get me wrong it's a very nice place but the majority of the
>   population live on the eastcoast for a good reason. The weather is
>   better.
>
>
>   but building boats on a desert beach
>   is possible with out a big shet ....
>
>
>   > Cruising destinations are more plentiful as well.
>
>
>   not much of any bays and harbors ?
>
>   but here the proa comes into its own
>   you can land on most beaches
>   even with the cruising sizes
>   and take off from there !
>
>   even in breaking surf ....
>
>
>   Best way to find what you like is visit and see/feel for yourself
>
>
>   yah !
>
>   thanks for the information &
>
>   regards fritz
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

OK so how much gap is enough or how do we arrive at a method of
determining such!!

For the schooner are we talking EasyRig or a windsurfer type rig per
mast???

Thanks Bob G.

-----Original Message-----
From: fritz roth [mailto:fritz.roth@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 9:57 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] twin masts



   good day all

   > but the main
   problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not
contribute
   much.


   two masts are working fine
   if the space between
   the two masts is large enough
   so as to have a large gap between
   the two following sails

   then you will have not only
   a better control over balance
   but also you can change directions much faster
   by forcing the boat around
   with the then rear rig pulled tight



   regards fritz



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

good day all

   > but the main
   problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not contribute
   much.


   two masts are working fine
   if the space between
   the two masts is large enough
   so as to have a large gap between
   the two following sails

   then you will have not only
   a better control over balance
   but also you can change directions much faster
   by forcing the boat around
   with the then rear rig pulled tight



   regards fritz



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day,

Two masts would have better balance than a single mast, and would reduce the
hull loads, as you say.  However, the mast weights would be very nearly as
heavy as a single, taller mast, as both of them have to be strong enough to
capsize the boat, at least on larger versions.  The heeling advantages of
low rig are somewhat offset by poor light air performance, but the main
problem is that, upwind, the aft sail is in bad air and does not contribute
much.  I suspect (would love someone to build one and see) that the benefits
are outweighed by the drawbacks.

A kink in the mast just above the deck works, but is a very tricky beast to
build.  The boom suggested would need to be be very solid.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 1:02 PM
Subject: [harryproa] twin masts


> I was wondering if the balance of a Harryproa with a single sailboard
> type sail could be improved with two masts. If each mast was lined up
> with a crossbeam it could possibly save weight by reducing the number
> of stress points. this would reduce the heeling moment and reduce the
> sheet loads.
> Also would it be possible to balance a single sailed rig by either
> tilting the top of the mast forward-requiring a bend just above the
> top bearing. 10-15 degrees would make a big difference; or by placing
> the mast on a very strong boom forward of the pivot point.
> Robert
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

good day robert

   > Fritz,
   I have seen pictures of your boats. I would love to sail on one


   may be we will get a chance at it ....


   > and
   I live on the East coast of Australia.


   what part ?


   > Land by the sea has gone up
   ridiculously in the last few years. million dollars for a shack in a
   coastal town just last week,


   where was that ?


   > but if you are prepard to live in the
   hinterland or a fair way from a city


   how much ?
   can you get supplies there ?


   > then it is possible to find
   something reasonable.


   with this much coastline for the population
   it must be possible

   or are there to many foreigners buying vacation homes ?

   regards fritz



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hi Fritz
   Any pictures of your boats?

   www.proadesign.com & links there


   > Is that 96 foot long?

   yah !
   its really scary ...

   especially thinking about it
   driving down the road with it


   > Where do you live now?


   central europe
   can you imagine the people here
   not dreaming about sailing to paradise
   on a proa ... ?



   > The Americas cup put an end to cheap waterfront land around Perth and
   the habitable parts of WA nearly 15 years ago


   I gather ....


   > The description of cheap needs to be explained here for some of our
   overseas people.
   In relation to the Euro or US dollar it is still very cheap. That is
   just one reason why people from overseas get boats built here.
   But if you live and work in Australia it is a lot more expensive and
   unattainable for the average person.


   so wages are not as high in wa ?


   > Don't get me wrong it's a very nice place but the majority of the
   population live on the eastcoast for a good reason. The weather is
   better.


   but building boats on a desert beach
   is possible with out a big shet ....


   > Cruising destinations are more plentiful as well.


   not much of any bays and harbors ?

   but here the proa comes into its own
   you can land on most beaches
   even with the cruising sizes
   and take off from there !

   even in breaking surf ....


   Best way to find what you like is visit and see/feel for yourself


   yah !

   thanks for the information &

   regards fritz




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