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#1988 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Sun Jul 2, 2006 1:17 am
Subject:: Re: Mast raising 		jmichaelcraw...
Online Now Online Now
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<< Would it be possible... using the crossbeams for leverage, pop it back up.>>

  I believe this is how Rob stepped the masts on Harrigami: 

    http://www.harryproa.com/news4_hg4.htm

  It's an interesting question I've been pondering for quite some time. 

  My goal is to purchase or build, depending upon time and money availability, the largest boat that I can trailer myself without an escort vehicle.  In the U.S., that's a 3.66m trailer width and 24.38m length.  Trailerability without special permits is limited to 2.6m width, but I'm willing to go through the effort to get a wide load permit for the one or two times per year that I'd move the boat.

  The Corsair F-36 is a good baseline, but the Harry proas make a much better use of space and material.  Instead of a dinky trimaran cockpit, and only one private cabin with a v-berth, a 15m Harry or Visionarry would offer two queen/double berths in separate areas of the cabin, and a huge catamaran-like area above deck.  There are also dozens of other advantages to the proas, but there's no need to rehash them every few months.

  The question is how to get it on and off the trailer without necessarily paying a lift fee and $60 per hour for yard help.

  I enjoy watching the Farrier folding system on the Corsairs and F boats, and also the hinged folding system used on Dragonflies, Elans, and the Telstar 28.  Both allow you to fold up a boat while on the water and float it onto a normal trailer.  The hinged system is easier and more stable, but F boat fans will argue that the Farrier system is stronger.  Lately I've been fascinated by the Cat2fold scissors folding system: 

    http://www.cat2fold.com/index.php?page=pictures

  Rafi Francke has done quite a job with the system, and the video I've seen of one person folding and unfolding the boat with a single winch is impressive.  it's a heck of a lot more elegant than the expandable trailer used for my current catamaran.  This system would work nicely on a Visionarry if the beam of the windward hull were about 18cm narrower.  Collapsing a Visionarry on the water and floating it onto a standard trailer would be too cool for words.

  However, the scissors akas would add weight, and wouldn't be as sturdy as a single box beam.  A fancy trailer with the tilt/winch system would be a simpler, cheaper, lighter, and stronger design.

  My question for the group is: can this be done without a lift, using just a custom trailer and two people?

  Does anyone else have folding/trailering schemes about which they've been thinking?

       - Mike



oceanplodder2003 wrote:
Would it be possible on the 12 m Harry to take just the LW hull,
insert the crossbeams, tip the whole thing on its side, insert the
mast horizontally, then using the crossbeams for leverage, pop it back
up. No need for a crane?
Also, if we put the una rig on Harry, what would the dimensions be,
not losing any sail area?


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (26)
#1987 From: "Myriam & Youri" <wangka@...>
Date: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:01 am
Subject:: RE: -RE: Help drawing the mast section 		yaendenboom
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Doug,

 

Attaches .pdf wingmast_section.

Any questions, don´t hesitate …

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: vrijdag 30 juni 2006 2:53
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: Re: -RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

Hi My and You,

 

I read the pdf like in Elementarry plans.

 

Do

Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:

On your PC do you have a graphics program like CorelDraw, Adobe Illustrator, Rhinoceros,  on the Internet there are shareware CAD (2D or 3D) that you can download for free or for a virtual fee,  another option is to send you the section by fax, if you give us your number …

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: donderdag 29 juni 2006 14:13
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

That's great.

 

I don't know what I am able to read.

 



Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine



 

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine __._,_.___ __,_._,___


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1986 From: "oceanplodder2003" <dana-tenacity@...>
Date: Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:26 am
Subject:: Mast raising 		oceanplodder...
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Send Email Send Email
  
Would it be possible on the 12 m Harry to take just the LW hull,
insert the crossbeams, tip the whole thing on its side, insert the
mast horizontally, then using the crossbeams for leverage, pop it back
up. No need for a crane?
Also, if we put the una rig on Harry, what would the dimensions be,
not losing any sail area?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (26)
#1985 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:53 am
Subject:: Re: -RE: Help drawing the mast section 		doha720
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Hi My and You,
 
I read the pdf like in Elementarry plans.
 
Do

Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:
Doug,
 
On your PC do you have a graphics program like CorelDraw, Adobe Illustrator, Rhinoceros,  on the Internet there are shareware CAD (2D or 3D) that you can download for free or for a virtual fee,  another option is to send you the section by fax, if you give us your number …
 
Best regards,
 
Myriam & Youri
Wangka bvba
Belgium
 
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: donderdag 29 juni 2006 14:13
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section
 
That's great.
 
I don't know what I am able to read.
 


Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine __._,_.___
__,_._,___

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1984 From: "Myriam & Youri" <wangka@...>
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:46 pm
Subject:: -RE: Help drawing the mast section 		yaendenboom
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Doug,

 

On your PC do you have a graphics program like CorelDraw, Adobe Illustrator, Rhinoceros,  on the Internet there are shareware CAD (2D or 3D) that you can download for free or for a virtual fee,  another option is to send you the section by fax, if you give us your number …

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: donderdag 29 juni 2006 14:13
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

That's great.

 

I don't know what I am able to read.

 



Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine __._,_.___

__,_._,___


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1983 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:13 pm
Subject:: RE: Help drawing the mast section 		doha720
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That's great.
 
I don't know what I am able to read.
 


Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:
Doug,
 
What kind of graphic vector formats are you able to read ?
The father of teardrop wingmast investigations is Tom Speer …
Have a look at www.tspeer.com/Wingmasts ...
 
The mold for a 10.5 m wingmast is definitely on our agenda for this summer, but we still have to make other plugs, molds, parts and finish
A full carbon/nomex elementary with a 18 m²  wishbone wingmast …
So we are not shure when the wingmast mold will be ready …
News will be posted on our site …
 
Best regards,
 
Myriam & Youri
Wangka bvba
Belgium
 
Web. www.wangkaboats.eu
 
 
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: donderdag 29 juni 2006 6:52
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section
 
Hi,
 
I'll have a look at it if you end it on the email, not sure how big you mean.
Tapering would be good idea towards top.
I scale any shape you send and draw in pen on graph paper.
What is this informatiom you got from? You made this mast?
 
Thanks Doug
 


Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:
all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal __._,_.___
__,_._,___

All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1982 From: "Myriam & Youri" <wangka@...>
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:53 am
Subject:: RE: Help drawing the mast section 		yaendenboom
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Doug,

 

What kind of graphic vector formats are you able to read ?

The father of teardrop wingmast investigations is Tom Speer …

Have a look at www.tspeer.com/Wingmasts ...

 

The mold for a 10.5 m wingmast is definitely on our agenda for this summer, but we still have to make other plugs, molds, parts and finish

A full carbon/nomex elementary with a 18 m²  wishbone wingmast …

So we are not shure when the wingmast mold will be ready …

News will be posted on our site …

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

Web. www.wangkaboats.eu

 

 

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens Doug Haines
Verzonden: donderdag 29 juni 2006 6:52
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

Hi,

 

I'll have a look at it if you end it on the email, not sure how big you mean.

Tapering would be good idea towards top.

I scale any shape you send and draw in pen on graph paper.

What is this informatiom you got from? You made this mast?

 

Thanks Doug

 



Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:

all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal __._,_.___

__,_._,___


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1981 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:51 am
Subject:: RE: Help drawing the mast section 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi,
 
I'll have a look at it if you end it on the email, not sure how big you mean.
Tapering would be good idea towards top.
I scale any shape you send and draw in pen on graph paper.
What is this informatiom you got from? You made this mast?
 
Thanks Doug
 


Myriam & Youri <wangka@...> wrote:
Doug,
 
If you are going to make a wingmast we can send you a drawing of a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your mast section.
Would you taper the mast along its length ? Tell uss how much ?
 
Best regards,
 
Myriam & Youri
Wangka bvba
Belgium
 
Web. www.wangkaboats.eu
 
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens doha720
Verzonden: woensdag 28 juni 2006 13:34
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section
 
Hi,

I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so
that I can print it and scale it to form the molds.
Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site.

Ta
Doug



__._,_.___ __,_._,___

Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" – The Wall Street Journal

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1980 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:13 pm
Subject:: Re: Help drawing the mast section 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
Thanks Youri, the Clarke 5 is a good choice.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

Doug,

 

If you are going to make a wingmast we can send you a drawing of a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your mast section.

Would you taper the mast along its length ? Tell uss how much ?

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

Web. www.wangkaboats.eu

 

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens doha720
Verzonden: woensdag 28 juni 2006 13:34
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

Hi,

I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so
that I can print it and scale it to form the molds.
Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site.

Ta
Doug



__._,_.___ __,_._,___

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1979 From: "Myriam & Youri" <wangka@...>
Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:36 pm
Subject:: RE: Help drawing the mast section 		yaendenboom
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Doug,

 

If you are going to make a wingmast we can send you a drawing of a 300 mm chord Clark Y for you to print and use as a template for your mast section.

Would you taper the mast along its length ? Tell uss how much ?

 

Best regards,

 

Myriam & Youri

Wangka bvba

Belgium

 

Web. www.wangkaboats.eu

 

 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Namens doha720
Verzonden: woensdag 28 juni 2006 13:34
Aan: harryproa@...
Onderwerp: [harryproa] Help drawing the mast section

 

Hi,

I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so
that I can print it and scale it to form the molds.
Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site.

Ta
Doug



__._,_.___ __,_._,___


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1978 From: "doha720" <doha720@...>
Date: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:34 am
Subject:: Help drawing the mast section 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hi,

I want to find something on the internet that shows a mast section so
that I can print it and scale it to form the molds.
Rob mentioned something about length 3 x width.
I found something one time and made rudders and fins on some site.

Ta
Doug

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (11)
#1977 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:39 am
Subject:: Re: Decided on 4m overall beam 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
Excellent.  I am away for the next 10 days, so email responses may be a bit slow.  Should be able to get out for a look on Monday week, if you are there?
 
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
From: doha720
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 7:36 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Decided on 4m overall beam

Group

When beams and hulls laid out,4m looked and felt OK.

So far the building is very simple and quick.

There is space to sleep inside, with storage under bunk.

Doug






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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#1976 From: "doha720" <doha720@...>
Date: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:36 pm
Subject:: Decided on 4m overall beam 		doha720
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Group

When beams and hulls laid out,4m looked and felt OK.

So far the building is very simple and quick.

There is space to sleep inside, with storage under bunk.

Doug

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#1975 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:39 pm
Subject:: Re: Camper mast and stuff 		proaharry
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G'day,
Doesn't sail well, and if it is not strong enough (equally likely), it breaks. 
 
Changing at the boom is a good idea, it will also need beefing up in this area.
 
No idea when next sailing day is, have had a bit on.  Will let you know.
 
Pics of the hatch?  Sounds very flash.
 
I make my own battens, ply is pretty useless, glass works, as does kiri and carbon.  Need to wrap at least the front 25% in double bias or else it will sheer.  Talk to the sailmaker about how much bend is required, then experiment. 
 
regards,
 
Rob

Hi Rob,
 
What happens when it is not stiff enough, doesn't sail good?
 
Thought of using the boom attachment area to change the wing shape to the circular shape.
 
Not on mast yet, thinking about rudders a little bit. When is your next sailing day scheduled? I'll definitely try to get along.
 
Done neat hatch today opens up from the side bit like those fancy car doors (Lamborghini maybe).
 
 General question: Do people make there own battens from ply or glass?
 
 
 
 
Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
To get it stiff enough a wood mast will have to be quite thick.  My carbon mast is 90mm diameter, the wing mast 140 (due to a fabrication problem, it was meant to be 100).  Ideally the mast should be three times as wide as it is thick, although twice will work, just not as efficiently.  The big problem with a wing mast is getting it to a round section where it goes into the hull, without any stress raising sharp corners, or areas where there is no laminate.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1974 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:27 pm
Subject:: Camper mast and stuff 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Rob,
 
What happens when it is not stiff enough, doesn't sail good?
 
Thought of using the boom attachment area to change the wing shape to the circular shape.
 
Not on mast yet, thinking about rudders a little bit. When is your next sailing day scheduled? I'll definitely try to get along.
 
Done neat hatch today opens up from the side bit like those fancy car doors (Lamborghini maybe).
 
 General question: Do people make there own battens from ply or glass?
 
 
 
 
Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
To get it stiff enough a wood mast will have to be quite thick.  My carbon mast is 90mm diameter, the wing mast 140 (due to a fabrication problem, it was meant to be 100).  Ideally the mast should be three times as wide as it is thick, although twice will work, just not as efficiently.  The big problem with a wing mast is getting it to a round section where it goes into the hull, without any stress raising sharp corners, or areas where there is no laminate.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1973 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:39 am
Subject:: Re: Mast step 		proaharry
Offline Offline
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G'day,
 
The distance between the bearings should be maximised, so any reduction is accompanied by a stronger mast, and more beefing up at the bottom.
 
A watertight tube around the bearings is necessary for watertightness regardless.   On the bigger boats, we have a collar round the top bearing and mast which stops the water getting in.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 7:02 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Mast step

OK, I'm ready to be shot down , but if the LW hull is very shallow,
why not have the mast bearings in a watertight tube, raise the base
till it is above the waterline and install a small drain overboard?



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#1972 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:04 am
Subject:: Re: Re: Beam width 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
Playstation was a relatively narrow boat, not helped by a huge rig and stays which prevented the main being eased.  These are not problems with harrys so pitchpoling is less of a possibility.   When I did it, there was plenty of warning, and it only happened because I was pushing too hard.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Beam width

<<I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.>>

  Steve Fossett's Playstation maxi cat was originally built at 105' LOA, with a beam of 60'.  I believe the choice was made to maximize righting moment with a wide beam, while keeping weight down with the shortest hulls they thought they could get away with.  However, it had a tendency to pitchpole at this beam-to-length ratio, and was lengthened to 125' to make it more stable.  It added a lot of weight, but they are much happier with the boat now.  I've also heard rumors about upwind performance, but can't substantiate them.

  In any case, while additional beam does provide more beam-wise righting moment, it doesn't increase length-wise righting moment.  It's possible to generate so much righting moment with a wider beam that the boat becomes too short to sail safely with the extra power.  Playstation went from a length-to-beam ratio of 1.75 to 2.08 to deal with this effect.  A 3.8m beam on an Elementary gives a ratio of 1.97, while extending it to 4.5m brings the ratio down to 1.66, below that of the original Playstation.

  If you're going to be cruising with appropriately-reefed sails, then this is a non issue, and the wider beam will be safer.  It also won't matter if you're racing and don't mind the risk.  It's something to consider, though.  After a point, wider only means safer if you're not pushing the boat.

  Personally, I'd rather capsize than pitchpole, especially at speed, but it all really depends upon what you want to do with the boat.  As Rob says, it would be interesting to see what the additional beam does.  Everything else is conjecture at this point.

       - Mike



Doug Haines wrote:
Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1971 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:01 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
To get it stiff enough a wood mast will have to be quite thick.  My carbon mast is 90mm diameter, the wing mast 140 (due to a fabrication problem, it was meant to be 100).  Ideally the mast should be three times as wide as it is thick, although twice will work, just not as efficiently.  The big problem with a wing mast is getting it to a round section where it goes into the hull, without any stress raising sharp corners, or areas where there is no laminate.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1970 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:46 am
Subject:: Re: Mast step 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Don't know the present sealing arrangements.
maybe it is a good idea to do as you say but possible problems i can
see are
It is probably important to keep sand out.
Any decrease in bury puts extra loading on the base of the mast
The tube still has to transfer the torque to the hull. The closer the
base is to the bottom the better.
It may be possible to take the tube to the bottom and simply have water
suitable bearings. The weight of water is negligible.
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "oceanplodder2003" <dana-
tenacity@u...> wrote:
>
> OK, I'm ready to be shot down , but if the LW hull is very shallow,
> why not have the mast bearings in a watertight tube, raise the base
> till it is above the waterline and install a small drain overboard?
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#1969 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:30 am
Subject:: Re: Re: Beam width 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi,
 
WellI never thought much of the plan dimensions untill I layed out the beam walls out on the floor to put together. It was like, wait a minute I've got something wrong or forgot some part, that's not the full width is it. Putting the WW hull into one end of the beam and sitting on the floor with a measuring tape the LW side is just so close it seems like it's a little surf cat I'm making. I can see that trailering imposes a limit to width, but I wasn't sure that that was what was deciding the extended width in the plans. Rob indicates that the beam could be wider if trailering is not an issue.
 
Also as it seems most work has been done with the racing WW hull boat then the cruising side will mean a few alternative choices. REally, who wants to cruise say in a far of remote place on a narrow multihull, just so it fits on a trailer when you get back home?
 
REally there is no restriction to the beam, which asks the question - can you cruise, such as a regular short coastal cruise, while sailing with the WW hull close to flying?
How do you sail an Elementarry compared to other Harryproas or other multihulls?  Suerly you would want the same safety of not coming close to lifting off.
Racing is risky, cruising is comfortable
 
Doug

Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
Congratulations on the rate of progress. Hope you take plent of pics
and notes on your trip
Here is my two cents worth on the beam issue. If you are cruising
with stores in the ww hull, then you have plenty of righting moment
in contrast with a cat or a tri which has the weight distributed more
evenly across the boat, but can load the boat more aft to avoid
pitchpoling. Extra width adds to the weight and windage and torque
and increases the likelihood of waves hitting the crossbeams.It also
makes it more of a hassle to manoevre. I suspect the narrower beam
would make it easier to come in and out of the surf. For a cruiser
3.8m seems about the right width. Elementarry noncruising on a broad
reach with much less weight in the ww hull appears to be at the
juncture of pitchpoling and sideways capsize when pushing it to its
maximum-
regards,
Robert

- In harryproa@..., Mike Crawford <jmichael@g...>
wrote:
>
> <<I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a
minute.>>
>
>   Steve Fossett's Playstation maxi cat was originally built at 105'
LOA,
> with a beam of 60'.  I believe the choice was made to maximize
righting
> moment with a wide beam, while keeping weight down with the
shortest
> hulls they thought they could get away with.  However, it had a
tendency
> to pitchpole at this beam-to-length ratio, and was lengthened to
125' to
> make it more stable.  It added a lot of weight, but they are much
> happier with the boat now.  I've also heard rumors about upwind
> performance, but can't substantiate them.
>
>   In any case, while additional beam does provide more beam-wise
> righting moment, it doesn't increase length-wise righting moment. 
It's
> possible to generate so much righting moment with a wider beam that
the
> boat becomes too short to sail safely with the extra power. 
Playstation
> went from a length-to-beam ratio of 1.75 to 2.08 to deal with this
> effect.  A 3.8m beam on an Elementary gives a ratio of 1.97, while
> extending it to 4.5m brings the ratio down to 1.66, below that of
the
> original Playstation.
>
>   If you're going to be cruising with appropriately-reefed sails,
then
> this is a non issue, and the wider beam will be safer.  It also
won't
> matter if you're racing and don't mind the risk.  It's something to
> consider, though.  After a point, wider only means safer if you're
not
> pushing the boat.
>
>   Personally, I'd rather capsize than pitchpole, especially at
speed,
> but it all really depends upon what you want to do with the boat. 
As
> Rob says, it would be interesting to see what the additional beam
does. 
> Everything else is conjecture at this point.
>
>        - Mike
>
>
>
> Doug Haines wrote:
>
> > Rob,
> > 
> > Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull
for
> > a minute.
> >  The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope
luff ,
> > for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip
> > planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round
mast
> > that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast,
but
> > strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up.
What
> > would a good width/length be?
> > 
> > Doug
> >
> > */Rob Denney <proa@i...>/* wrote:
> >
> >     G'day,
> >     
> >     I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to
see
> >     how it sails at 4.5
> >     
> >     regards,
> >     
> >     rob
> >
> >         ----- Original Message -----
> >         *From:* Doug Haines <mailto:doha720@y...>
> >         *To:* harryproa@...
> >         <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >         *Sent:* Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
> >         *Subject:* Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE
MATERIAL?
> >
> >         Rob,
> >         
> >         What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a
bit
> >         narrow?
> >         
> >         It'll stay in the water.
> >         
> >         6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
> >         
> >         Doug
> >
> >         */Rob Denney <proa@i... <mailto:proa@i...>>/*
> >         wrote:
> >
> >             beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped
> >             position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal
on the
> >             sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to
> >             Maylands next week.
> >             
> >             regards,
> >             
> >             rob
> >
> >                 ----- Original Message -----
> >                 *From:* Doug Haines <mailto:doha720@y...>
> >                 *To:* harryproa@...
> >                 <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >                 *Sent:* Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
> >                 *Subject:* Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A
CORE
> >                 MATERIAL?
> >
> >                 Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll
try
> >                 that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
> >                 
> >                 Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being
quite
> >                 narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about
3.8m
> >                 overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that
length
> >                 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
> >                 
> >                 I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the
building,
> >                 and leave the option to maybe some other owner who
> >                 could convert this back to a demountable pinned
type
> >                 of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
> >                 Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to
> >                 complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard,
so
> >                 call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
> >                 Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for
bridges
> >                 from Phuket US $960.
> >                 
> >                 I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of
weeks.
> >
> >                 */Rob Denney <proa@i...>/* wrote:
> >
> >                     G'day,
> >                     
> >                     Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any
> >                     questions to me as well as to the group as I
am
> >                     having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
> >                     
> >                     Polystyrene will not work on areas where you
are
> >                     walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void
> >                     under the glass.  Eventually it all falls
off.
> >                     You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is
better
> >                     to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene
> >                     (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb
> >                     (ATL) are recommended.  
> >                     
> >                     regards,
> >                     
> >                     Rob
> >
> >                         ----- Original Message -----
> >                         *From:* Robert <mailto:cateran1949@y...>
> >                         *To:* harryproa@...
> >                         <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >                         *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
> >                         *Subject:* [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS
A
> >                         CORE MATERIAL?
> >
> >                         For long term use I'd stick with a quality
> >                         foam or honeycomb. The
> >                         resin , glass and exposure to nasty
materials
> >                         is still the same price
> >                         for a core that can out gass and
generally not
> >                         perform as well. For a
> >                         discourse on this there is something on
the
> >                         proafile yahoo group I was
> >                         wondering for the marginal extra cost of
going
> >                         to 20mm for the core in
> >                         polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
> >                         Robert --- In
harryproa@...,
> >                         "doha720" <doha720@y...>
> >                         wrote:
> >                         >
> >                         > Could it be used to make the flat
platform
> >                         on the camper?
> >                         >
> >                         > 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with
400db is
> >                         stated on the plan.
> >                         >
> >                         > Was buying the polystyrene for the end
caps
> >                         today and thought...
> >                         >
> >                         > Doug
> >                         >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >                         ------------------------------------------
------------------------------
> >                         Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> >                         Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >                         Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database:
268.5.1/328
> >                         - Release Date: 5/1/2006
> >
> >
> >                 Send instant messages to your online friends
> >                 http://uk.messenger.yaoo.com
> >                 --------------------------------------------------
----------------------
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> >                 Release Date: 5/1/2006
> >
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> >         http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1968 From: "oceanplodder2003" <dana-tenacity@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:02 pm
Subject:: Mast step 		oceanplodder...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
OK, I'm ready to be shot down , but if the LW hull is very shallow,
why not have the mast bearings in a watertight tube, raise the base
till it is above the waterline and install a small drain overboard?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#1967 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:56 pm
Subject:: Re: Beam width 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Congratulations on the rate of progress. Hope you take plent of pics
and notes on your trip
Here is my two cents worth on the beam issue. If you are cruising
with stores in the ww hull, then you have plenty of righting moment
in contrast with a cat or a tri which has the weight distributed more
evenly across the boat, but can load the boat more aft to avoid
pitchpoling. Extra width adds to the weight and windage and torque
and increases the likelihood of waves hitting the crossbeams.It also
makes it more of a hassle to manoevre. I suspect the narrower beam
would make it easier to come in and out of the surf. For a cruiser
3.8m seems about the right width. Elementarry noncruising on a broad
reach with much less weight in the ww hull appears to be at the
juncture of pitchpoling and sideways capsize when pushing it to its
maximum-
regards,
Robert

- In harryproa@..., Mike Crawford <jmichael@g...>
wrote:
>
> <<I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a
minute.>>
>
>   Steve Fossett's Playstation maxi cat was originally built at 105'
LOA,
> with a beam of 60'.  I believe the choice was made to maximize
righting
> moment with a wide beam, while keeping weight down with the
shortest
> hulls they thought they could get away with.  However, it had a
tendency
> to pitchpole at this beam-to-length ratio, and was lengthened to
125' to
> make it more stable.  It added a lot of weight, but they are much
> happier with the boat now.  I've also heard rumors about upwind
> performance, but can't substantiate them.
>
>   In any case, while additional beam does provide more beam-wise
> righting moment, it doesn't increase length-wise righting moment.
It's
> possible to generate so much righting moment with a wider beam that
the
> boat becomes too short to sail safely with the extra power.
Playstation
> went from a length-to-beam ratio of 1.75 to 2.08 to deal with this
> effect.  A 3.8m beam on an Elementary gives a ratio of 1.97, while
> extending it to 4.5m brings the ratio down to 1.66, below that of
the
> original Playstation.
>
>   If you're going to be cruising with appropriately-reefed sails,
then
> this is a non issue, and the wider beam will be safer.  It also
won't
> matter if you're racing and don't mind the risk.  It's something to
> consider, though.  After a point, wider only means safer if you're
not
> pushing the boat.
>
>   Personally, I'd rather capsize than pitchpole, especially at
speed,
> but it all really depends upon what you want to do with the boat.
As
> Rob says, it would be interesting to see what the additional beam
does.
> Everything else is conjecture at this point.
>
>        - Mike
>
>
>
> Doug Haines wrote:
>
> > Rob,
> >
> > Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull
for
> > a minute.
> >  The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope
luff ,
> > for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip
> > planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round
mast
> > that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast,
but
> > strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up.
What
> > would a good width/length be?
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > */Rob Denney <proa@i...>/* wrote:
> >
> >     G'day,
> >
> >     I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to
see
> >     how it sails at 4.5
> >
> >     regards,
> >
> >     rob
> >
> >         ----- Original Message -----
> >         *From:* Doug Haines <mailto:doha720@y...>
> >         *To:* harryproa@...
> >         <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >         *Sent:* Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
> >         *Subject:* Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE
MATERIAL?
> >
> >         Rob,
> >
> >         What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a
bit
> >         narrow?
> >
> >         It'll stay in the water.
> >
> >         6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
> >
> >         Doug
> >
> >         */Rob Denney <proa@i... <mailto:proa@i...>>/*
> >         wrote:
> >
> >             beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped
> >             position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal
on the
> >             sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to
> >             Maylands next week.
> >
> >             regards,
> >
> >             rob
> >
> >                 ----- Original Message -----
> >                 *From:* Doug Haines <mailto:doha720@y...>
> >                 *To:* harryproa@...
> >                 <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >                 *Sent:* Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
> >                 *Subject:* Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A
CORE
> >                 MATERIAL?
> >
> >                 Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll
try
> >                 that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
> >
> >                 Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being
quite
> >                 narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about
3.8m
> >                 overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that
length
> >                 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
> >
> >                 I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the
building,
> >                 and leave the option to maybe some other owner who
> >                 could convert this back to a demountable pinned
type
> >                 of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
> >                 Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to
> >                 complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard,
so
> >                 call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
> >                 Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for
bridges
> >                 from Phuket US $960.
> >
> >                 I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of
weeks.
> >
> >                 */Rob Denney <proa@i...>/* wrote:
> >
> >                     G'day,
> >
> >                     Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any
> >                     questions to me as well as to the group as I
am
> >                     having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
> >
> >                     Polystyrene will not work on areas where you
are
> >                     walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void
> >                     under the glass.  Eventually it all falls
off.
> >                     You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is
better
> >                     to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene
> >                     (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb
> >                     (ATL) are recommended.
> >
> >                     regards,
> >
> >                     Rob
> >
> >                         ----- Original Message -----
> >                         *From:* Robert <mailto:cateran1949@y...>
> >                         *To:* harryproa@...
> >                         <mailto:harryproa@...>
> >                         *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
> >                         *Subject:* [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS
A
> >                         CORE MATERIAL?
> >
> >                         For long term use I'd stick with a quality
> >                         foam or honeycomb. The
> >                         resin , glass and exposure to nasty
materials
> >                         is still the same price
> >                         for a core that can out gass and
generally not
> >                         perform as well. For a
> >                         discourse on this there is something on
the
> >                         proafile yahoo group I was
> >                         wondering for the marginal extra cost of
going
> >                         to 20mm for the core in
> >                         polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
> >                         Robert --- In
harryproa@...,
> >                         "doha720" <doha720@y...>
> >                         wrote:
> >                         >
> >                         > Could it be used to make the flat
platform
> >                         on the camper?
> >                         >
> >                         > 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with
400db is
> >                         stated on the plan.
> >                         >
> >                         > Was buying the polystyrene for the end
caps
> >                         today and thought...
> >                         >
> >                         > Doug
> >                         >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >                         ------------------------------------------
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> >                         Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> >                         Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database:
268.5.1/328
> >                         - Release Date: 5/1/2006
> >
> >
> >                 Send instant messages to your online friends
> >                 http://uk.messenger.yaoo.com
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> >                 Release Date: 5/1/2006
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> >
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> >         Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/328 - Release
Date:
> >         5/1/2006
> >
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messenger.yahoo.com>
> > - with free PC-PC calling and photo sharing.
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1966 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:56 am
Subject:: Re: Beam width 		jmichaelcraw...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 
<<I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.>>

  Steve Fossett's Playstation maxi cat was originally built at 105' LOA, with a beam of 60'.  I believe the choice was made to maximize righting moment with a wide beam, while keeping weight down with the shortest hulls they thought they could get away with.  However, it had a tendency to pitchpole at this beam-to-length ratio, and was lengthened to 125' to make it more stable.  It added a lot of weight, but they are much happier with the boat now.  I've also heard rumors about upwind performance, but can't substantiate them.

  In any case, while additional beam does provide more beam-wise righting moment, it doesn't increase length-wise righting moment.  It's possible to generate so much righting moment with a wider beam that the boat becomes too short to sail safely with the extra power.  Playstation went from a length-to-beam ratio of 1.75 to 2.08 to deal with this effect.  A 3.8m beam on an Elementary gives a ratio of 1.97, while extending it to 4.5m brings the ratio down to 1.66, below that of the original Playstation.

  If you're going to be cruising with appropriately-reefed sails, then this is a non issue, and the wider beam will be safer.  It also won't matter if you're racing and don't mind the risk.  It's something to consider, though.  After a point, wider only means safer if you're not pushing the boat.

  Personally, I'd rather capsize than pitchpole, especially at speed, but it all really depends upon what you want to do with the boat.  As Rob says, it would be interesting to see what the additional beam does.  Everything else is conjecture at this point.

       - Mike



Doug Haines wrote:
Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1965 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:55 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Rob,
 
Thats good - I thought you didn't like a nice wide safe multihull for a minute.
 The sail designer (Rolly Tasker) advises to use a bolt rope luff , for reefing with some long cruise I've planned. So suppose strip planking should now be an aero foil shaoe rather than the round mast that takes the luff sleeve. Not quite as big as your wing mast, but strip planked in the 6mm kiri and just straight all the way up. What would a good width/length be?
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1964 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:14 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		proaharry
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
G'day,
 
I meant than 4m.  For traillering reasons.  Be interesting to see how it sails at 4.5
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1963 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:51 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Rob,
 
What do you mean you wouldn't go wider 7.5 x 3.8 seems a bit narrow?
 
It'll stay in the water.
 
6oz US dacron. Rolly Taskers Phuket
 
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1962 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:09 pm
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		proaharry
Offline Offline
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beam is what fits on the trailer in the telescoped position.  Can go wider, but I wouldn't.  Good deal on the sails.  What are they made of?  I will try to get to Maylands next week.
 
regards,
 
rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1961 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:51 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		doha720
Offline Offline
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Thanks, thats a good idea about the 3mm ply, I'll try that as i have bought the polystyrene anyway.
 
Laying out the beams now it strikes me as being quite narrow. The whole boat that is. I've got about 3.8m overall beam. Can I widen this to 4.5m? Is that length 3.8m to do with still fitting on the trailer?
 
I've decided to kind of fix the beams in the building, and leave the option to maybe some other owner who could convert this back to a demountable pinned type of beam. This is just easier for be right now.
Also I'm heading off from Mandurah next Tuesday to complete in about 4 weeks at Maylands boat yard, so call in to Maylands later in the week to see me.
Ordered two sails, luff sleeves, 6m luf for bridges from Phuket US $960.
 
I hope to make your rudder set up in a couple of weeks.

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15)
#1960 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:24 pm
Subject:: Re: Self steering harryproa downwind 		jmichaelcraw...
Online Now Online Now
Send Email Send Email
 

  A saver strategy would probably be to use a wind vane, but that would require a serious change to the steering system, and probably isn't too desirable on any variant of an Elementarry.  I'm not sure how I would set that up.

  A tiller pilot would eat up power, but maybe not an excessive amount.  You'll have a light boat, and assuming that you won't be asleep during a passage if the wind or seas are high, the autopilot won't have to do too much correcting.  You might be able to get away with using less than an amp of power, even with a vastly over-spec'ed Raymarine ST 4000 which will handle boats up to 6,500 Kg.  An ST 1000 or 2000 will use even less.  I believe all three can be patched into a wind meter to steer according to the wind.  The ST 4000 requires a separate control head (more reliable), while the other two are self-contained (more convenient).

  The downside of the autopilots with which I'm familiar is that they only respond to gradual wind shifts over a span of a minute or two.  Only a wind vane or a high-end autopilot would be able to make instant corrections.

  A single 100 watt panel should be able to take care of things if you steer by hand while awake.

  Or, you can use a towed generator you mention.  Here are some links:
  
     http://www.onpassage.com/Alternative_Energy/Water_towed_generators.htm

  Hamilton Ferris also makes a unit.

  Do let us know what you choose.  I'm only halfway through a multi-year catamaran renovation, and won't be able to start a Harry for at least few years.  It's always good to hear what people are doing with the proas.

       - Mike



oceanplodder2003 wrote:
All true, still want to get out there and try it. harry, like any fast
multi is going to be a problem for any self steering. An electronic
auto pilot might handle the changes in apparent wind but I distrust
them and don't want to have to generate that much electricity. I read
somewhere about a system that used a towed impeller to produce
hydraulic pressure and hydraulic logic, excess power was fed into the
batteries, sounded promising, but it seems to have disappeared.

--- In harryproa@..., Peter Raymond <pramsec@a...> wrote:
>
> G'day Oceanplodder,
>
> Slocum sailed from Thursday Island to Cocos Islands in seventeen
days and
> according to him was only at the helm for three hours in that period. 
> But remember
> that "Spray" was a long keel boat , heavy, with good directional
> stability.  It is also
> probable that Slocum had steady winds from one direction though he does
> not say
> much about that. The rig he had at that time was that of a yawl.
>
> Straight sailing was something that proa builders seemed keen to
achieve
> so it may
> be possible to achieve though its sensitivity to weight placement may
> result in a lot
> of restriction of movement on board.
>
> Perhaps some proa owners could try to sail dead straight for at least
> one hour and
> see how much movement was necessary to achieve that and how much
desired
> movement
> was prevented for the same reason.
>
> Regards,
> Peter Raymond
>
>
>
>
>
>
> oceanplodder2003 wrote:
>
> >-
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I've also thought about this and I'm convinced it's possible, probably
> >easy with the schooner, lately I've been considering the una rig and
> >that should be possible too.
> > The schooner rig- Remember that Slocum got Spray to steer downwind by
> >over easing both sails, should be relatively easy to do something
similar.
> > With the una rig my thoughts are to adjust balance by having the
> >forward rudder used as a daggerboard and by raising or lowering it
> >balance should always be perfect, then adjusting to self steer
> >hopefully becomes possible.
> >Just read that, wasn't too clear, hope it was understandable.
> >
> >
> >
> >-- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...> wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>G'Day,
> >>
> >>Here's a question that no one would probably tried yet.
> >>
> >>Can you put a sail up so that it is pulling somewhere forward of the
> >>mast, tie the rudder straight forward, and hace the boat sail itself
> >>downwind overnight?
> >>
> >>On the Schooner rig this could be the forward mainsail sheeted out.
> >>
> >>Actually I was only thinking about the schooner rig and haven't
> >>thought about the single rig they have on the biger boats.
> >>
> >>This is to saingle hand across a stretch of water taking more than a
> >>day.
> >>
> >>Doug
> >>
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
>






Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#1959 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:32 am
Subject:: Re: Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL? 		proaharry
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
G'day,
 
Sorry, I missed this.  Doug, please send any questions to me as well as to the group as I am having continual problems with Yahoo.  Ta.
 
Polystyrene will not work on areas where you are walking on it, as it dents, then leaves a void under the glass.  Eventually it all falls off.  You can put 1-3mm ply each side but it is better to use a decent core.  Foam, polypropylene (Boatcote or Polycore Aus) or paper honeycomb (ATL) are recommended.   
 
regards,
 
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: PLOYSTYRENE AS A CORE MATERIAL?

For long term use I'd stick with a quality foam or honeycomb. The
resin , glass and exposure to nasty materials is still the same price
for a core that can out gass and generally not perform as well. For a
discourse on this there is something on the proafile yahoo group I was
wondering for the marginal extra cost of going to 20mm for the core in
polycore polypropylene honeycomb,
Robert --- In harryproa@..., "doha720" <doha720@y...>
wrote:
>
> Could it be used to make the flat platform on the camper?
>
> 15mm expensive foam sandwiched with 400db is stated on the plan.
>
> Was buying the polystyrene for the end caps today and thought...
>
> Doug
>




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Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/328 - Release Date: 5/1/2006

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