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#2632 From: sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 8:34 pm
Subject:: cantarry 		nosupersnail
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Hello, you guys are nuts. Imagine when your feet slip
and you slide down with your nuts against those nuts!
Is that where you had your cup holder?

I don't see a sheet cleat either.

Thanks a lot for the images and report!
later,

Sigurd

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#2631 From: "Rudolf vd Brug" <rpvdb@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 3:21 pm
Subject:: Re: Cantarry report 		rudolfvdbrug
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My reaction was triggerd by the bit in the report where you wright the lw hull is pointing where it wants.
Solution keep the bows in the same direction.
Parallel control lines would do the trick. It seems to me manoeuvrability is an issue as it is. Best to have a paddle with you on a boat like that.
Nevertheless I think with a little bit of pressure in the sail changing clr does work to steer.
 
Rudolf
----- Original Message -----
From: mark@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:01 PM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Cantarry report

Possibly but that is not significantly different to what we have. By keeping the rudder straight on Cantarry and changing the beam angle we can test whether this would work. If it did work we could still use the single beam and have two parallel control lines from the ww hull bows ( a new ww hull would be needed) back to the lw hull. The single beam is lighter than two beams and shares the same lw hull bulkhead.
 
I think there would still be some manoeuvrability issues. I wouldn't want to rely on the changing of the clr in a crowded harbour.
 
I need some play time with Cantarry to do more testing.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Rudolf vd Brug
Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 9:37 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Cantarry report

Hi,
 
We thought maybe have two parrallel beams pivotting together.
Steering through changing the clr.
You could shift the position of the ww hull by feet, two pedals on rails on the beams pulling lines fastened on the ww bows.
Only one line to pull, the sheet. Not sure about the force neede to steer.
 
Rudolf
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Cantarry report

 

The Cantarry

The Cantharry was conceived by a friend of Harryproas, Col Campey. He has sailed on an Elementarry and a Visionarry, liked the look of our Texel racer but didn’t like the juggling with two rudders and sheet. Col wondered if it was possible to have a boat like our Texel racer but have a windward hull steered with your feet.

At first look I wasn’t convinced as it seemed the balances would be wrong but the fact that the Elementarry steers well with just a back daggerboard/rudder made me wonder.  Col is one of those rare breed who is willing to put his money where his ideas are so we started building.

This boat also gave us an opportunity to try out a different building method and material. We would use 6mm Polycore glassed on one side as a flat panel and pushed into female moulds for shape. The method worked giving us a 6m lw hull of 34kg complete with mast step etc.

Col came down from Brisbane to join me for a week at a time for the building. We used as much existing materials as we could find around the workshop including using a broken mast and a leftover carbon tube for the canting beam. We also used some leftover polycore for the ww hull so the shape is more optimized to materials rather than good hydrodynamics. The idea is that it wouldn’t spend much time in the water. The rudder/board was going to be retracting but for expedience we stuck it on and decided to stay away from the shallows for now. As it turned out that became a problem.

The rig is free standing with a wishbone boom. The sail is a standard Dacron A class cat sail of about 13 sq m. The boat fully rigged weighs around 80kg.

The general idea of the boat is the beam can swing fore and aft allowing the sailor’s weight to shift aft to keep the bows up. The ww hull can also swivel and has the rudder fixed under the pivot point. This provides both steering and lateral resistance and is operated by pushing with your feet. A line to each end of the hull controls the swing of the beam. An endless sheet controls the boom.

Sailing

We assembled and launched Cantarry on Thursday. Only about 5 knots of wind and a bit of swell to make things interesting. As usual the time got away so we didn't get it together till fairly late. We launched her through the surf but the fixed keel made it difficult. Col got on too early and amusingly sat on top of the ww hull while the surf passed under him. He then jumped off, swam it out, mistakenly let go of the beam swing control line so the whole lot collapsed on top of him. I swam out, we pulled the mast out just before a wave picked the whole lot up and sent it all towards the beach in a heap. Looked a bit sad but amazingly, nothing broke. 

We tried again Friday. This is a very quick boat to rig and could easily be done by one person. Same wind and swell (which was much bigger than the photos suggest). Col took her out for half an hour and seemed to sit still a lot while he pulled strings and swung hulls. He got going a few times and looked fine crossing the harbour. I took her out and did a fair bit of the same thing. Light wind and flat sail made it all a bit inconclusive.

Does it work? I’ll reserve judgment until we take it out in more wind but I tend to think it isn't going to work as is. As predicted it wants to sail around the ww hull. It is hard to get the Centre of Lateral Resistance and Centre of Effort balanced correctly. I think the problem is the lw hull is so light and buoyant and the ww hull (with pilot) so heavy and not buoyant. The ww hull needs to be in a certain position in relation to the rig to get the CLR right. To do this the lw hull is hauled back via lines to the lw hull. The sail is also controlled via the lw hull. Trouble is there is nothing keeping the lw hull in the right direction so it is free to point where it wants. I had trouble getting it going until I realised the relationship between the rudder (on the ww hull) and sail is most important and not in relation to the main hull. As soon as I had the ww hull canted right back and pointed 30 degrees to leeward it got going, but the lw hull was skidding sideways. She didn't like reaching at all.

Not sure what the answer is. Maybe when it gets going faster it may line the lw hull up better and sort itself out though I doubt if it will ever be particularly manoeuvrable. Maybe a small skeg on the front and back of the lw hull may help.

  

Col is off to Europe for a few months so we have hung it up for the duration. I may get time to try in stronger winds before then.

It may not have worked as hoped but I think the weather was against us. More playing around and a few changes could bring out the huge potential that this boat has. When she did get the odd puff she was raring to go so I’d imagine she would be a rocket with the windward hull flying.

Mark

 ...................................

Mark Stephens


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2630 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 2:33 pm
Subject:: BD on SA 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
Re the picture of Blind Date on www.sailinganarchy.com   
 
 I neglected to say before to double click on the photo, then on the colourful little gizmo with the arrows in the bottom right corner and it becomes big enough to check out all the details.
 
regards,
 
Rob

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#2629 From: <mark@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 12:01 pm
Subject:: RE: Cantarry report 		markstephens...
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Possibly but that is not significantly different to what we have. By keeping the rudder straight on Cantarry and changing the beam angle we can test whether this would work. If it did work we could still use the single beam and have two parallel control lines from the ww hull bows ( a new ww hull would be needed) back to the lw hull. The single beam is lighter than two beams and shares the same lw hull bulkhead.
 
I think there would still be some manoeuvrability issues. I wouldn't want to rely on the changing of the clr in a crowded harbour.
 
I need some play time with Cantarry to do more testing.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Rudolf vd Brug
Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 9:37 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Cantarry report

Hi,
 
We thought maybe have two parrallel beams pivotting together.
Steering through changing the clr.
You could shift the position of the ww hull by feet, two pedals on rails on the beams pulling lines fastened on the ww bows.
Only one line to pull, the sheet. Not sure about the force neede to steer.
 
Rudolf
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Cantarry report

 

The Cantarry

The Cantharry was conceived by a friend of Harryproas, Col Campey. He has sailed on an Elementarry and a Visionarry, liked the look of our Texel racer but didn’t like the juggling with two rudders and sheet. Col wondered if it was possible to have a boat like our Texel racer but have a windward hull steered with your feet.

At first look I wasn’t convinced as it seemed the balances would be wrong but the fact that the Elementarry steers well with just a back daggerboard/rudder made me wonder.  Col is one of those rare breed who is willing to put his money where his ideas are so we started building.

This boat also gave us an opportunity to try out a different building method and material. We would use 6mm Polycore glassed on one side as a flat panel and pushed into female moulds for shape. The method worked giving us a 6m lw hull of 34kg complete with mast step etc.

Col came down from Brisbane to join me for a week at a time for the building. We used as much existing materials as we could find around the workshop including using a broken mast and a leftover carbon tube for the canting beam. We also used some leftover polycore for the ww hull so the shape is more optimized to materials rather than good hydrodynamics. The idea is that it wouldn’t spend much time in the water. The rudder/board was going to be retracting but for expedience we stuck it on and decided to stay away from the shallows for now. As it turned out that became a problem.

The rig is free standing with a wishbone boom. The sail is a standard Dacron A class cat sail of about 13 sq m. The boat fully rigged weighs around 80kg.

The general idea of the boat is the beam can swing fore and aft allowing the sailor’s weight to shift aft to keep the bows up. The ww hull can also swivel and has the rudder fixed under the pivot point. This provides both steering and lateral resistance and is operated by pushing with your feet. A line to each end of the hull controls the swing of the beam. An endless sheet controls the boom.

Sailing

We assembled and launched Cantarry on Thursday. Only about 5 knots of wind and a bit of swell to make things interesting. As usual the time got away so we didn't get it together till fairly late. We launched her through the surf but the fixed keel made it difficult. Col got on too early and amusingly sat on top of the ww hull while the surf passed under him. He then jumped off, swam it out, mistakenly let go of the beam swing control line so the whole lot collapsed on top of him. I swam out, we pulled the mast out just before a wave picked the whole lot up and sent it all towards the beach in a heap. Looked a bit sad but amazingly, nothing broke. 

We tried again Friday. This is a very quick boat to rig and could easily be done by one person. Same wind and swell (which was much bigger than the photos suggest). Col took her out for half an hour and seemed to sit still a lot while he pulled strings and swung hulls. He got going a few times and looked fine crossing the harbour. I took her out and did a fair bit of the same thing. Light wind and flat sail made it all a bit inconclusive.

Does it work? I’ll reserve judgment until we take it out in more wind but I tend to think it isn't going to work as is. As predicted it wants to sail around the ww hull. It is hard to get the Centre of Lateral Resistance and Centre of Effort balanced correctly. I think the problem is the lw hull is so light and buoyant and the ww hull (with pilot) so heavy and not buoyant. The ww hull needs to be in a certain position in relation to the rig to get the CLR right. To do this the lw hull is hauled back via lines to the lw hull. The sail is also controlled via the lw hull. Trouble is there is nothing keeping the lw hull in the right direction so it is free to point where it wants. I had trouble getting it going until I realised the relationship between the rudder (on the ww hull) and sail is most important and not in relation to the main hull. As soon as I had the ww hull canted right back and pointed 30 degrees to leeward it got going, but the lw hull was skidding sideways. She didn't like reaching at all.

Not sure what the answer is. Maybe when it gets going faster it may line the lw hull up better and sort itself out though I doubt if it will ever be particularly manoeuvrable. Maybe a small skeg on the front and back of the lw hull may help.

  

Col is off to Europe for a few months so we have hung it up for the duration. I may get time to try in stronger winds before then.

It may not have worked as hoped but I think the weather was against us. More playing around and a few changes could bring out the huge potential that this boat has. When she did get the odd puff she was raring to go so I’d imagine she would be a rocket with the windward hull flying.

Mark

 ...................................

Mark Stephens


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2628 From: "Rudolf vd Brug" <rpvdb@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 11:36 am
Subject:: Re: Cantarry report 		rudolfvdbrug
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Hi,
 
We thought maybe have two parrallel beams pivotting together.
Steering through changing the clr.
You could shift the position of the ww hull by feet, two pedals on rails on the beams pulling lines fastened on the ww bows.
Only one line to pull, the sheet. Not sure about the force neede to steer.
 
Rudolf
----- Original Message -----
From: mark@...
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Cantarry report

 

The Cantarry

The Cantharry was conceived by a friend of Harryproas, Col Campey. He has sailed on an Elementarry and a Visionarry, liked the look of our Texel racer but didn’t like the juggling with two rudders and sheet. Col wondered if it was possible to have a boat like our Texel racer but have a windward hull steered with your feet.

At first look I wasn’t convinced as it seemed the balances would be wrong but the fact that the Elementarry steers well with just a back daggerboard/rudder made me wonder.  Col is one of those rare breed who is willing to put his money where his ideas are so we started building.

This boat also gave us an opportunity to try out a different building method and material. We would use 6mm Polycore glassed on one side as a flat panel and pushed into female moulds for shape. The method worked giving us a 6m lw hull of 34kg complete with mast step etc.

Col came down from Brisbane to join me for a week at a time for the building. We used as much existing materials as we could find around the workshop including using a broken mast and a leftover carbon tube for the canting beam. We also used some leftover polycore for the ww hull so the shape is more optimized to materials rather than good hydrodynamics. The idea is that it wouldn’t spend much time in the water. The rudder/board was going to be retracting but for expedience we stuck it on and decided to stay away from the shallows for now. As it turned out that became a problem.

The rig is free standing with a wishbone boom. The sail is a standard Dacron A class cat sail of about 13 sq m. The boat fully rigged weighs around 80kg.

The general idea of the boat is the beam can swing fore and aft allowing the sailor’s weight to shift aft to keep the bows up. The ww hull can also swivel and has the rudder fixed under the pivot point. This provides both steering and lateral resistance and is operated by pushing with your feet. A line to each end of the hull controls the swing of the beam. An endless sheet controls the boom.

Sailing

We assembled and launched Cantarry on Thursday. Only about 5 knots of wind and a bit of swell to make things interesting. As usual the time got away so we didn't get it together till fairly late. We launched her through the surf but the fixed keel made it difficult. Col got on too early and amusingly sat on top of the ww hull while the surf passed under him. He then jumped off, swam it out, mistakenly let go of the beam swing control line so the whole lot collapsed on top of him. I swam out, we pulled the mast out just before a wave picked the whole lot up and sent it all towards the beach in a heap. Looked a bit sad but amazingly, nothing broke. 

We tried again Friday. This is a very quick boat to rig and could easily be done by one person. Same wind and swell (which was much bigger than the photos suggest). Col took her out for half an hour and seemed to sit still a lot while he pulled strings and swung hulls. He got going a few times and looked fine crossing the harbour. I took her out and did a fair bit of the same thing. Light wind and flat sail made it all a bit inconclusive.

Does it work? I’ll reserve judgment until we take it out in more wind but I tend to think it isn't going to work as is. As predicted it wants to sail around the ww hull. It is hard to get the Centre of Lateral Resistance and Centre of Effort balanced correctly. I think the problem is the lw hull is so light and buoyant and the ww hull (with pilot) so heavy and not buoyant. The ww hull needs to be in a certain position in relation to the rig to get the CLR right. To do this the lw hull is hauled back via lines to the lw hull. The sail is also controlled via the lw hull. Trouble is there is nothing keeping the lw hull in the right direction so it is free to point where it wants. I had trouble getting it going until I realised the relationship between the rudder (on the ww hull) and sail is most important and not in relation to the main hull. As soon as I had the ww hull canted right back and pointed 30 degrees to leeward it got going, but the lw hull was skidding sideways. She didn't like reaching at all.

Not sure what the answer is. Maybe when it gets going faster it may line the lw hull up better and sort itself out though I doubt if it will ever be particularly manoeuvrable. Maybe a small skeg on the front and back of the lw hull may help.

  

Col is off to Europe for a few months so we have hung it up for the duration. I may get time to try in stronger winds before then.

It may not have worked as hoped but I think the weather was against us. More playing around and a few changes could bring out the huge potential that this boat has. When she did get the odd puff she was raring to go so I’d imagine she would be a rocket with the windward hull flying.

Mark

 ...................................

Mark Stephens


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2627 From: <mark@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 7:59 am
Subject:: RE: boat length and cantarry 		markstephens...
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Beer gets left on the beach though a cup holder was mooted at one stage. Steering by turning the ww hull by feet. I tried locking off the sheet and moving the ww hull forward to change the balance but in the light wind it just swung the lw hull around, and the sail.
 
m
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of sigurd grung
Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 10:55 AM . 
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] boat length and cantarry

i found the lazauskas site again, trying to figure out
what goes on with wave and friction drag.

Cantarry, nice looking boat but I can't figure out
where you leave the beer?

so you steer by moving the ama aft and fore?
that is nice. is it always parallell to the vaka?
When you said cant harry i thought of tilting/rolling.
Is there not something in english like saying "Damn I
can't harry this no more!"

very beautiful boat.

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#2626 From: <mark@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 7:28 am
Subject:: Cantarry report 		markstephens...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
 

The Cantarry

 

The Cantharry was conceived by a friend of Harryproas, Col Campey. He has sailed on an Elementarry and a Visionarry, liked the look of our Texel racer but didn’t like the juggling with two rudders and sheet. Col wondered if it was possible to have a boat like our Texel racer but have a windward hull steered with your feet.

 

At first look I wasn’t convinced as it seemed the balances would be wrong but the fact that the Elementarry steers well with just a back daggerboard/rudder made me wonder.  Col is one of those rare breed who is willing to put his money where his ideas are so we started building.

 

This boat also gave us an opportunity to try out a different building method and material. We would use 6mm Polycore glassed on one side as a flat panel and pushed into female moulds for shape. The method worked giving us a 6m lw hull of 34kg complete with mast step etc.

 

Col came down from Brisbane to join me for a week at a time for the building. We used as much existing materials as we could find around the workshop including using a broken mast and a leftover carbon tube for the canting beam. We also used some leftover polycore for the ww hull so the shape is more optimized to materials rather than good hydrodynamics. The idea is that it wouldn’t spend much time in the water. The rudder/board was going to be retracting but for expedience we stuck it on and decided to stay away from the shallows for now. As it turned out that became a problem.

 

The rig is free standing with a wishbone boom. The sail is a standard Dacron A class cat sail of about 13 sq m. The boat fully rigged weighs around 80kg.

 

The general idea of the boat is the beam can swing fore and aft allowing the sailor’s weight to shift aft to keep the bows up. The ww hull can also swivel and has the rudder fixed under the pivot point. This provides both steering and lateral resistance and is operated by pushing with your feet. A line to each end of the hull controls the swing of the beam. An endless sheet controls the boom.

 

Sailing

 

We assembled and launched Cantarry on Thursday. Only about 5 knots of wind and a bit of swell to make things interesting. As usual the time got away so we didn't get it together till fairly late. We launched her through the surf but the fixed keel made it difficult. Col got on too early and amusingly sat on top of the ww hull while the surf passed under him. He then jumped off, swam it out, mistakenly let go of the beam swing control line so the whole lot collapsed on top of him. I swam out, we pulled the mast out just before a wave picked the whole lot up and sent it all towards the beach in a heap. Looked a bit sad but amazingly, nothing broke. 

 

We tried again Friday. This is a very quick boat to rig and could easily be done by one person. Same wind and swell (which was much bigger than the photos suggest). Col took her out for half an hour and seemed to sit still a lot while he pulled strings and swung hulls. He got going a few times and looked fine crossing the harbour. I took her out and did a fair bit of the same thing. Light wind and flat sail made it all a bit inconclusive.

 

Does it work? I’ll reserve judgment until we take it out in more wind but I tend to think it isn't going to work as is. As predicted it wants to sail around the ww hull. It is hard to get the Centre of Lateral Resistance and Centre of Effort balanced correctly. I think the problem is the lw hull is so light and buoyant and the ww hull (with pilot) so heavy and not buoyant. The ww hull needs to be in a certain position in relation to the rig to get the CLR right. To do this the lw hull is hauled back via lines to the lw hull. The sail is also controlled via the lw hull. Trouble is there is nothing keeping the lw hull in the right direction so it is free to point where it wants. I had trouble getting it going until I realised the relationship between the rudder (on the ww hull) and sail is most important and not in relation to the main hull. As soon as I had the ww hull canted right back and pointed 30 degrees to leeward it got going, but the lw hull was skidding sideways. She didn't like reaching at all.

Not sure what the answer is. Maybe when it gets going faster it may line the lw hull up better and sort itself out though I doubt if it will ever be particularly manoeuvrable. Maybe a small skeg on the front and back of the lw hull may help.

  

Col is off to Europe for a few months so we have hung it up for the duration. I may get time to try in stronger winds before then.

 

It may not have worked as hoped but I think the weather was against us. More playing around and a few changes could bring out the huge potential that this boat has. When she did get the odd puff she was raring to go so I’d imagine she would be a rocket with the windward hull flying.

 

 

Mark

 

 ...................................

Mark Stephens

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2625 From: <mark@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 5:24 am
Subject:: RE: cantarry 		markstephens...
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OK, more photos posted. I am intending to write a report but haven't found the time. I see what I can get together soon.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of sigurd grung
Sent: Tuesday, 8 May 2007 1:22 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] cantarry

how is the pitch attitude transferred between the
hulls? is the alu tube resisting all the torque?
You have foot straps on lines along the aka to adjust
the longi placement of the ww hull?
can you post some close ups please? pretty please?

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#2624 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 4:58 am
Subject:: Blind Date 		proaharry
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G'day,
 
Have a look at http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php  for a picture of Blind Date on her second sail.
 
regards,

Rob

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#2623 From: sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 3:21 am
Subject:: cantarry 		nosupersnail
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how is the pitch attitude transferred between the
hulls? is the alu tube resisting all the torque?
You have foot straps on lines along the aka to adjust
the longi placement of the ww hull?
can you post some close ups please? pretty please?

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#2622 From: sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 1:49 am
Subject:: foot steering 		nosupersnail
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is very effective once I got used to it.
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12279&highlight=kite+dinghy



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#2621 From: sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
Date: Tue May 8, 2007 12:55 am
Subject:: boat length and cantarry 		nosupersnail
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i found the lazauskas site again, trying to figure out
what goes on with wave and friction drag.

Cantarry, nice looking boat but I can't figure out
where you leave the beer?

so you steer by moving the ama aft and fore?
that is nice. is it always parallell to the vaka?
When you said cant harry i thought of tilting/rolling.
Is there not something in english like saying "Damn I
can't harry this no more!"

very beautiful boat.

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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#2620 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sat May 5, 2007 1:18 pm
Subject:: RE: forces on the rudder 		doha720
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I'm changing to a Rob shaft special design, but further back because I seem to turn into the wind too much.

So if I can use the same rudders I need to insert/attach a shaft to come up from the top.

Any suggestions, Mark?

How about removing some of the core (kiri) to make space?

Doug

mark@... wrote:
It is balanced when it is around one third back but you don't want it balanced otherwise it will oversteer. About 15% back is where you are nearly balanced but have control and feel. It's a bit like a Balestron rig, if it were balanced it would swing around uncontrollably so you underbalance it so the sheet can keep it in control.
 
It is the front part of the rudder in front of the shaft that is acting as a servo and lightening the helm.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Doug Haines
Sent: Saturday, 5 May 2007 5:08 PM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: [harryproa] forces on the rudder

HI,

       I would like to hear some explaination on the rudder balance.
       How is it, that a shaft that exits the top of a rudder a third the length back - should this then be tending to turn the shaft around because of the large surface area back from the shaft?
       I understand the shaft is at the thickest , which is a third from the forward edge.


Doug

sigurd grung <nosupersnail@yahoo.no> wrote:
rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
< Make it as long as you can within handling
< constraints.

I am not sure why.

1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
my satisfaction.
Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.

2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
more?
http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm

Let me know if I'm wrong, please!

__________________________________________________
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2619 From: <mark@...>
Date: Sat May 5, 2007 10:51 am
Subject:: RE: forces on the rudder 		markstephens...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
It is balanced when it is around one third back but you don't want it balanced otherwise it will oversteer. About 15% back is where you are nearly balanced but have control and feel. It's a bit like a Balestron rig, if it were balanced it would swing around uncontrollably so you underbalance it so the sheet can keep it in control.
 
It is the front part of the rudder in front of the shaft that is acting as a servo and lightening the helm.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Doug Haines
Sent: Saturday, 5 May 2007 5:08 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] forces on the rudder

HI,

       I would like to hear some explaination on the rudder balance.
       How is it, that a shaft that exits the top of a rudder a third the length back - should this then be tending to turn the shaft around because of the large surface area back from the shaft?
       I understand the shaft is at the thickest , which is a third from the forward edge.


Doug

sigurd grung <nosupersnail@yahoo.no> wrote:

rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
< Make it as long as you can within handling
< constraints.

I am not sure why.

1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
my satisfaction.
Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.

2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
more?
http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm

Let me know if I'm wrong, please!

__________________________________________________
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2618 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sat May 5, 2007 7:07 am
Subject:: forces on the rudder 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
HI,

       I would like to hear some explaination on the rudder balance.
       How is it, that a shaft that exits the top of a rudder a third the length back - should this then be tending to turn the shaft around because of the large surface area back from the shaft?
       I understand the shaft is at the thickest , which is a third from the forward edge.


Doug

sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...> wrote:
rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
< Make it as long as you can within handling
< constraints.

I am not sure why.

1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
my satisfaction.
Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.

2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
more?
http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm

Let me know if I'm wrong, please!

__________________________________________________
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2617 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Fri May 4, 2007 1:20 pm
Subject:: Re: re: proa length 		proaharry
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Long is good for sailing boats (higher top speed, less chance of nosediving, less pitching, nicer motion), but may not be for kite boats, where pitching and nose diving are not problems. 
 
If you have a rudder, you can move the strings or the crew to wherever you like to adjust the boat's attitude.  I would be surprised if you need a foil on the rudder, except to hold you down when the kite does a power dive.  Strongly advise simple foot controlled steering so you can use both hands on the kite.  Peter Lynn has an excellent system.
 
regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: [harryproa] re: proa length

rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
< Make it as long as you can within handling
< constraints.

I am not sure why.

1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
my satisfaction.
Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.

2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
more?
http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm

Let me know if I'm wrong, please!

__________________________________________________
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2616 From: "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@...>
Date: Fri May 4, 2007 11:12 am
Subject:: Re: proa length 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Length is good.
Match it to your sail area.


--- In harryproa@..., sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
wrote:
>
> rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
> < Make it as long as you can within handling
> < constraints.
>
> I am not sure why.
>
> 1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
> mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
> that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
> my satisfaction.
> Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
> hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.
>
> 2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
> the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
> only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
> 20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
> except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
> more?
> http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm
>
> Let me know if I'm wrong, please!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2615 From: sigurd grung <nosupersnail@...>
Date: Thu May 3, 2007 2:30 pm
Subject:: re: proa length 		nosupersnail
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
rob said to me, regarding my tornado conversion:
< Make it as long as you can within handling
< constraints.

I am not sure why.

1: I am expecting a bow-up attitude, since there is no
mast to push it down. This will be draggy, and I think
that extra length will not be enough to prevent it to
my satisfaction.
Thus I will need a T rudder or something anyway, so
hobbyhorsing will be much less of a nuisance.

2: speed, I was looking at this michlet calculation of
the tornado drag, and it appears that wave drag is
only a tiny part of the total drag, even as fast as
20kt. Thus I guess a longer hull will be draggier,
except maybe at *very* high speed, since WSA must be
more?
http://personal.inet.fi/private/muu/torodrag.htm

Let me know if I'm wrong, please!

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#2614 From: "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@...>
Date: Thu May 3, 2007 11:54 am
Subject:: Hi, new photos 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Here shots from 3 weeks sailing.
Sorry no off boat sailing shots.
Doug

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#2613 From: Paul Nudd <paulnudd@...>
Date: Wed May 2, 2007 11:14 pm
Subject:: Re: Re: telescoping again 		paulnudd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
k_s_oneill wrote:
>>   The halyard arrangement seems a bit odd, though.  I'm sure
> Schionning
>> and company have reasons for running the line outside the sails, but
>> from the photos, it seems as if this would affect sail shape and
>> efficiency in the precise location that the luff pocket is supposed
> to
>> be helping.
>
> It looks to me as though the halyard is being used there to bend the
> mast and flatten the sail when they're reefed; I guess that when
> reefed the sail luff tension is not enough to bend the mast.
----------------------
When I got my Seawind 24 in 1981 it came with an external main halyard
and no method of tensioning the luff. When I installed luff tensioning
tackle the result was the mast bent to the side that the external
halyard came down. I tried leading the halyard down the other side and
the mast bent that way. I solved the problem by converting to an
internal halyard.
Ideally a halyard lock should be used if it can be done safely.

Paul Nudd

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2612 From: "k_s_oneill" <K_S_ONeill@...>
Date: Wed May 2, 2007 4:57 pm
Subject:: Re: telescoping again 		k_s_oneill
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In harryproa@..., Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
wrote:
>
>
>   I'll have to contradict myself after having taken a look at some
of
> the Radical Bay 8000 photos at http://www.smartyachting.com/ .
>
>   They have a swept-back una rig with a self-vanging boom that uses
> sails with luff pockets on some versions, and the system appears to
work
> well.  It appears that between the arc of the mast and the battens
that
> they are able to properly support the sail for decent shape.  They
are
> going with a soft sailcloth for previously-mentioned reasons.
>
>   The halyard arrangement seems a bit odd, though.  I'm sure
Schionning
> and company have reasons for running the line outside the sails, but
> from the photos, it seems as if this would affect sail shape and
> efficiency in the precise location that the luff pocket is supposed
to
> be helping.

It looks to me as though the halyard is being used there to bend the
mast and flatten the sail when they're reefed; I guess that when
reefed the sail luff tension is not enough to bend the mast.

Kevin

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2611 From: Paul Nudd <paulnudd@...>
Date: Wed May 2, 2007 12:39 am
Subject:: Planing - again -yawn. 		paulnudd
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Doug Haines wrote:
> G;Day Mark,
>
> Not sure about what you're saying with induced drag and balance and so on..
Definitely feels up over the top of the water, over the waves, level and
obviously steering easily at the high speed. So supposing that this is planing.
--------------------------------------
Could argue all day and for many days about what is and what is not
planing. Some define it as just going really fast.
However it is best just to not use the word as it does not add anything
to the discussion, just generates lots of heat and no light.
So just talk about boatspeed, preferably in knots and everyone will know
what you are talking about.
PN

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (19)
#2610 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:20 am
Subject:: Re: Fun 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I tell you it was probably also the sail shape improving with extra bend forced into the two too stiff batten s still in sails. (flexy ones broke)

Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
As well as what mark said.
 
It is not planing, the hull is too skinny and too round.  The force in the wind is a square function.  Double the breeze is 4 times the force.  8 squared is 64, 12 squared is 144.  Almost double.  As your hulls are long and thin, they do not have much wave drag, so you get a big increase in speed, particularly if the ww hull is unweighted by the increase in breeze.     The mono is approaching hull speed (8 knots) so it's drag is increasing rapidly.
 
Staying dry  and warm is a must. 
 
Sailing this week, probably Wed or Thurs.  Give me a call or email the day before if you can make it.  Is there a decent beach near a ramp up by Maylands?  May be easier if I come to you.
 
regards,
 
Rob----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi,

Well, fun's over now. Back on Swan River, about to head into public boat yard.

Was noticing yesterday a definite change at a relatively small wind increase, the boat took off over the top of the waves at much higher speed. Wind went from say 8 knots to 12knots, boat speed went from say 4-5 knots to about 8-10 knots.
The feeling makes me think that this was the transition into being up on the plane. 30-40' monohull behind me nearly keeping up untill this wind came, and it sucddenly got much further back. Other multihullers confirm this experience please.

The 3 week voyage was quite tough on myself. The weather was a lot of onshore winds which meant wet ride, if properly clothed it would have not been unpleasant, but I had normal type jumpers and tracky pants so got pretty cold.
I gave the boat  afair workout, and was especially pleased that my own mast and rudders handled everything OK.

I am thinking of a longtrip later in the year. I am planning for warm/hot weather and tail winds so as to be comfortable enough for a longer period of time.
Extra storage and sun/rain shelter, plus gear like cooker will improve living.
Sailing really doesn't need much changed except more sail area and reefing set up properly. Plus outboard, very useful.

ROb - sailing on river?

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:
Well Done, I'm jealous, how about some photos?

------ Original Message ------
Received: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:05:27 AM MDT
From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi all,

At Lancelin now. Very tiring sail up. Held full sail all day from Rottnest.
Sea really too big for this size boat, without getting plenty onboard. Made it
in good time though.

The bike did fit after stowing gear under bunk, and taking wheels off.

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:

Folding bike?? Met a cruiser who used to buy old mountain bikes at garage
sales, cut them in half vertically for stowing, then reassemble with a piece
of tubing as a sleeve and some wingnuts when he got to port.

------ Original Message ------
Received:
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@....au>
To: <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Jeez, how could I have possibly neglected to make the cabin big enough to fit
a bike in?

Enjoy the sail to Lancelin, hope you clean up the competition.

regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Fun

G'Day,

Good run back to Mandurah.
Trying for Lancelin for boggie boarding comp on Sunday.
Try to work out some storage /living arrangements. Might leave the bike
behind this time - let a fair bit of water in through the ajar hatch, thus
enjoying wet blankets at night. The bike can fit with wheels removered, but
its just awkward stowing. Should fit nicely into a harry double berth space.
That's the only negative thing to say on Elementarry, is where to put the
bike.
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@....au> wrote:

G'day,
Congratulations, you have now done more offshore /coastal miles in a
harryproa than anyone else! 250 kms Perth to Dunsborough. Very impressive.

Could we have some more details on weather, sea state, speed, handling
etc, please.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Deep far south

Hi,

Made it down to dunsboruogh via Bunbury in Sidecar. Boat relly good, fun
untill big chops oand head winds, but still handles well.

Doug

.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (19)
#2609 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:24 am
Subject:: RE: Fun 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Also happened to be as tight on the wind as I could go to make it round North mole.. Lightest weakest sea breeze I've ever seen -- Saturday. Won't come in at all from now on. Reading a book about seabreezes - how and why. Was interested in sailing out behing the seabreeze, say if you wanted to go down South from up North, you'd like to get out where the easterly is still blowing (In WA). Could be 100nm though?

mark@... wrote:
 
Sounds like an increase in apparent wind but could be a number of contributing factors including small reduction in wetted surface area drag. You may also be out of balance at slower speeds so as the speed picks up the boat becomes more balanced so the rudders cause less drag.
 
I remember when sailing the first two Elementarrys they would sail along at a certain speed until I applied a bit of front rudder. It would then take of like a turbocharger. I think the front rudder was balancing the boat so reducing induced drag on the back rudder.
 
I was sailing Bain's Harry the other day and found by unlinking the two steering systems I could balance the boat with the front rudder, reducing the weather helm. I think Rudolf is finding the same with Blind Date. All a bit inconclusive as Rob seems to be happy with his single rudder. Interestingly a friend of mine is developing a 29ft sport racing mono. It has a canting keel and has been a major disappointment as they can't beat the last version with a standard keel. A couple of weeks ago they stuck a canard on and now it goes like a rocket.
 
Centre of Effort and Centre of Lateral Resistance balance is a curly one on Harryproas as we have the two daggerboards acting as rudders which changes a bit of conventional thinking on the subject. To really confuse the issue see my next post.
 
Mark
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Doug Haines
Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2007 10:55 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi,

Well, fun's over now. Back on Swan River, about to head into public boat yard.

Was noticing yesterday a definite change at a relatively small wind increase, the boat took off over the top of the waves at much higher speed. Wind went from say 8 knots to 12knots, boat speed went from say 4-5 knots to about 8-10 knots.
The feeling makes me think that this was the transition into being up on the plane. 30-40' monohull behind me nearly keeping up untill this wind came, and it sucddenly got much further back. Other multihullers confirm this experience please.

The 3 week voyage was quite tough on myself. The weather was a lot of onshore winds which meant wet ride, if properly clothed it would have not been unpleasant, but I had normal type jumpers and tracky pants so got pretty cold.
I gave the boat  afair workout, and was especially pleased that my own mast and rudders handled everything OK.

I am thinking of a longtrip late r in the year. I am planning for warm/hot weather and tail winds so as to be comfortable enough for a longer period of time.
Extra storage and sun/rain shelter, plus gear like cooker will improve living.
Sailing really doesn't need much changed except more sail area and reefing set up properly. Plus outboard, very useful.

ROb - sailing on river?

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:
Well Done, I'm jealous, how about some photos?

------ Original Message ------
Received: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:05:27 AM MDT
From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi all,

At Lancelin now. Very tiring sail up. Held full sail all day from Rottnest.
Sea really too big for this size boat, without getting plenty onboard. Made it
in good time though.

The bike did fit after stowing gear under bunk, and taking wheels off.

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:

Folding bike?? Met a cruiser who used to buy old mountain bikes at garage
sales, cut them in half vertically for stowing, then reassemble with a piece
of tubing as a sleeve and some wingnuts when he got to port.

------ Original Message ------
Received:
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@....au>
To: <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Jeez, how could I have possibly neglected to make the cabin big enough to fit
a bike in?

Enjoy the sail to Lancelin, hope you clean up the competition.

regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Fun

G'Day,

Good run back to Mandurah.
Trying for Lancelin for boggie boarding comp on Sunday.
Try to work out some storage /living arrangements. Might leave the bike
behind this time - let a fair bit of water in through the ajar hatch, thus
enjoying wet blankets at night. The bike can fit with wheels removered, but
its just awkward stowing. Should fit nicely into a harry double berth space.
That's the only negative thing to say on Elementarry, is where to put the
bike.
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@....au> wrote:

G'day,
Congratulations, you have now done more offshore /coastal miles in a
harryproa than anyone else! 250 kms Perth to Dunsborough. Very impressive.

Could we have some more details on weather, sea state, speed, handling
etc, please.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Deep far south

Hi,

Made it down to dunsboruogh via Bunbury in Sidecar. Boat relly good, fun
untill big chops oand head winds, but still handles well.

Doug

.

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007
7:58 PM

----------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up
for your free account today.

----------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007
7:58 PM

---------------------------------
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (19)
#2608 From: <mark@...>
Date: Tue May 1, 2007 9:06 pm
Subject:: RE: re: telescoping again 		markstephens...
Offline Offline
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The Radical Bay's luff sock is an add on. It is zipped in place as the sail is hoisted on a track. They tried with and without and didn't notice any difference so no longer use it. The sweep back is to get the C of E back so the mast can be stepped in a convenient place.
 
Mark
 
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Mike Crawford
Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 7:04 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] re: telescoping again


  I'll have to contradict myself after having taken a look at some of the Radical Bay 8000 photos at http://www.smartyachting.com/ .

  They have a swept-back una rig with a self-vanging boom that uses sails with luff pockets on some versions, and the system appears to work well.  It appears that between the arc of the mast and the battens that they are able to properly support the sail for decent shape.  They are going with a soft sailcloth for previously-mentioned reasons. 

  The halyard arrangement seems a bit odd, though.  I'm sure Schionning and company have reasons for running the line outside the sails, but from the photos, it seems as if this would affect sail shape and efficiency in the precise location that the luff pocket is supposed to be helping.

       - Mike



Rob Denney wrote:

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [harryproa] re: telescoping again

Rob said:
<I am not worried about friction so much as wear on
<the lower mast.

not possible to have plastic where they touch each
other?

<The sail is on slugs in tracks on both the top and
<bottom pieces. Hoist it up the lowered top piece,
<then hoist the top piece, raising the sail up the
<lower piece.

Aha, the outside part is on top. Neat, but then the
flex will be completely odd?

< Boom is bonded to a bearing on the mast. Self <

vanging.

so you can rotate it relative to the mast? Then the
track is starting to sound desireable.

But to me a luff pocket seems way less difficult.
It can be D section, by which the outer section would
be stronger since there is a straight shear web?
And the inner can be on top, then both can be tapered.
And the halyard and telescope line could be the same?
Here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/477637200_6c9b9bd9b9_o.jpg
And, if the two got stuck up there, you could still
lower the sail.

 regards,


Rob



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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2607 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:14 am
Subject:: Re: Fun 		doha720
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Hi,

I'll take it out before then.
Sailing is pretty sheltered from all the trees.
You could sail on Perth water in front of the city for some extra fun. Ramps at South Perth near the catamaran hire spot.

I still think I was up higher or just skimming across the sea easier at the higher speed. More level rather than up and down.
The fat bottom should have a bit of surf area to plane?


Rob Denney <proa@...> wrote:
G'day,
 
As well as what mark said.
 
It is not planing, the hull is too skinny and too round.  The force in the wind is a square function.  Double the breeze is 4 times the force.  8 squared is 64, 12 squared is 144.  Almost double.  As your hulls are long and thin, they do not have much wave drag, so you get a big increase in speed, particularly if the ww hull is unweighted by the increase in breeze.     The mono is approaching hull speed (8 knots) so it's drag is increasing rapidly.
 
Staying dry  and warm is a must. 
 
Sailing this week, probably Wed or Thurs.  Give me a call or email the day before if you can make it.  Is there a decent beach near a ramp up by Maylands?  May be easier if I come to you.
 
regards,
 
Rob----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi,

Well, fun's over now. Back on Swan River, about to head into public boat yard.

Was noticing yesterday a definite change at a relatively small wind increase, the boat took off over the top of the waves at much higher speed. Wind went from say 8 knots to 12knots, boat speed went from say 4-5 knots to about 8-10 knots.
The feeling makes me think that this was the transition into being up on the plane. 30-40' monohull behind me nearly keeping up untill this wind came, and it sucddenly got much further back. Other multihullers confirm this experience please.

The 3 week voyage was quite tough on myself. The weather was a lot of onshore winds which meant wet ride, if properly clothed it would have not been unpleasant, but I had normal type jumpers and tracky pants so got pretty cold.
I gave the boat  afair workout, and was especially pleased that my own mast and rudders handled everything OK.

I am thinking of a longtrip later in the year. I am planning for warm/hot weather and tail winds so as to be comfortable enough for a longer period of time.
Extra storage and sun/rain shelter, plus gear like cooker will improve living.
Sailing really doesn't need much changed except more sail area and reefing set up properly. Plus outboard, very useful.

ROb - sailing on river?

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:
Well Done, I'm jealous, how about some photos?

------ Original Message ------
Received: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:05:27 AM MDT
From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi all,

At Lancelin now. Very tiring sail up. Held full sail all day from Rottnest.
Sea really too big for this size boat, without getting plenty onboard. Made it
in good time though.

The bike did fit after stowing gear under bunk, and taking wheels off.

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:

Folding bike?? Met a cruiser who used to buy old mountain bikes at garage
sales, cut them in half vertically for stowing, then reassemble with a piece
of tubing as a sleeve and some wingnuts when he got to port.

------ Original Message ------
Received:
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@....au>
To: <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Jeez, how could I have possibly neglected to make the cabin big enough to fit
a bike in?

Enjoy the sail to Lancelin, hope you clean up the competition.

regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Fun

G'Day,

Good run back to Mandurah.
Trying for Lancelin for boggie boarding comp on Sunday.
Try to work out some storage /living arrangements. Might leave the bike
behind this time - let a fair bit of water in through the ajar hatch, thus
enjoying wet blankets at night. The bike can fit with wheels removered, but
its just awkward stowing. Should fit nicely into a harry double berth space.
That's the only negative thing to say on Elementarry, is where to put the
bike.
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@....au> wrote:

G'day,
Congratulations, you have now done more offshore /coastal miles in a
harryproa than anyone else! 250 kms Perth to Dunsborough. Very impressive.

Could we have some more details on weather, sea state, speed, handling
etc, please.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Deep far south

Hi,

Made it down to dunsboruogh via Bunbury in Sidecar. Boat relly good, fun
untill big chops oand head winds, but still handles well.

Doug

.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (19)
#2606 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2007 5:49 am
Subject:: RE: Fun 		doha720
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G;Day Mark,

Not sure about what you're saying with induced drag and balance and so on.. Definitely feels up over the top of the water, over the waves, level and obviously steering easily at the high speed. So supposing that this is planing.

I only ever use one rudder at a time. I thought that was standard practice now for harryproas?

The extra sail area is for light conditions where my 6m luff, non square tops don't seem enough.
Up to 7m and squarer tops hopefully.
Wondering about where the slugs attach the batten pockets, and pushes around the mast. How to keep it straight back from track?

Also just wondering what diff. eliptical versus narrow tail wing shape is? Easier , eficient build, if symmetric.
Got to run through some things with you harryproa guys before I start doing these modificaations, so hopeully see Rob soon. Is he in Perth at the moment?

Doug

 



mark@... wrote:
 
Sounds like an increase in apparent wind but could be a number of contributing factors including small reduction in wetted surface area drag. You may also be out of balance at slower speeds so as the speed picks up the boat becomes more balanced so the rudders cause less drag.
 
I remember when sailing the first two Elementarrys they would sail along at a certain speed until I applied a bit of front rudder. It would then take of like a turbocharger. I think the front rudder was balancing the boat so reducing induced drag on the back rudder.
 
I was sailing Bain's Harry the other day and found by unlinking the two steering systems I could balance the boat with the front rudder, reducing the weather helm. I think Rudolf is finding the same with Blind Date. All a bit inconclusive as Rob seems to be happy with his single rudder. Interestingly a friend of mine is developing a 29ft sport racing mono. It has a canting keel and has been a major disappointment as they can't beat the last version with a standard keel. A couple of weeks ago they stuck a canard on and now it goes like a rocket.
 
Centre of Effort and Centre of Lateral Resistance balance is a curly one on Harryproas as we have the two daggerboards acting as rudders which changes a bit of conventional thinking on the subject. To really confuse the issue see my next post.
 
Mark
 
...................................
Mark Stephens
-----Original Message-----
From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On Behalf Of Doug Haines
Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2007 10:55 AM
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi,

Well, fun's over now. Back on Swan River, about to head into public boat yard.

Was noticing yesterday a definite change at a relatively small wind increase, the boat took off over the top of the waves at much higher speed. Wind went from say 8 knots to 12knots, boat speed went from say 4-5 knots to about 8-10 knots.
The feeling makes me think that this was the transition into being up on the plane. 30-40' monohull behind me nearly keeping up untill this wind came, and it sucddenly got much further back. Other multihullers confirm this experience please.

The 3 week voyage was quite tough on myself. The weather was a lot of onshore winds which meant wet ride, if properly clothed it would have not been unpleasant, but I had normal type jumpers and tracky pants so got pretty cold.
I gave the boat  afair workout, and was especially pleased that my own mast and rudders handled everything OK.

I am thinking of a longtrip late r in the year. I am planning for warm/hot weather and tail winds so as to be comfortable enough for a longer period of time.
Extra storage and sun/rain shelter, plus gear like cooker will improve living.
Sailing really doesn't need much changed except more sail area and reefing set up properly. Plus outboard, very useful.

ROb - sailing on river?

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:
Well Done, I'm jealous, how about some photos?

------ Original Message ------
Received: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:05:27 AM MDT
From: Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Hi all,

At Lancelin now. Very tiring sail up. Held full sail all day from Rottnest.
Sea really too big for this size boat, without getting plenty onboard. Made it
in good time though.

The bike did fit after stowing gear under bunk, and taking wheels off.

Doug

David Howie <dana-tenacity@usa.net> wrote:

Folding bike?? Met a cruiser who used to buy old mountain bikes at garage
sales, cut them in half vertically for stowing, then reassemble with a piece
of tubing as a sleeve and some wingnuts when he got to port.

------ Original Message ------
Received:
From: "Rob Denney" <proa@....au>
To: <harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Fun

Jeez, how could I have possibly neglected to make the cabin big enough to fit
a bike in?

Enjoy the sail to Lancelin, hope you clean up the competition.

regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Fun

G'Day,

Good run back to Mandurah.
Trying for Lancelin for boggie boarding comp on Sunday.
Try to work out some storage /living arrangements. Might leave the bike
behind this time - let a fair bit of water in through the ajar hatch, thus
enjoying wet blankets at night. The bike can fit with wheels removered, but
its just awkward stowing. Should fit nicely into a harry double berth space.
That's the only negative thing to say on Elementarry, is where to put the
bike.
Doug

Rob Denney <proa@....au> wrote:

G'day,
Congratulations, you have now done more offshore /coastal miles in a
harryproa than anyone else! 250 kms Perth to Dunsborough. Very impressive.

Could we have some more details on weather, sea state, speed, handling
etc, please.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Haines
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Deep far south

Hi,

Made it down to dunsboruogh via Bunbury in Sidecar. Boat relly good, fun
untill big chops oand head winds, but still handles well.

Doug

.

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Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007
7:58 PM

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for your free account today.

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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7:58 PM

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (19)
#2605 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Tue May 1, 2007 9:04 pm
Subject:: re: telescoping again 		jmichaelcraw...
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Send Email Send Email
 

  I'll have to contradict myself after having taken a look at some of the Radical Bay 8000 photos at http://www.smartyachting.com/ .

  They have a swept-back una rig with a self-vanging boom that uses sails with luff pockets on some versions, and the system appears to work well.  It appears that between the arc of the mast and the battens that they are able to properly support the sail for decent shape.  They are going with a soft sailcloth for previously-mentioned reasons. 

  The halyard arrangement seems a bit odd, though.  I'm sure Schionning and company have reasons for running the line outside the sails, but from the photos, it seems as if this would affect sail shape and efficiency in the precise location that the luff pocket is supposed to be helping.

       - Mike



Rob Denney wrote:
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [harryproa] re: telescoping again

Rob said:
<I am not worried about friction so much as wear on
<the lower mast.

not possible to have plastic where they touch each
other?

<The sail is on slugs in tracks on both the top and
<bottom pieces. Hoist it up the lowered top piece,
<then hoist the top piece, raising the sail up the
<lower piece.

Aha, the outside part is on top. Neat, but then the
flex will be completely odd?

< Boom is bonded to a bearing on the mast. Self <

vanging.

so you can rotate it relative to the mast? Then the
track is starting to sound desireable.

But to me a luff pocket seems way less difficult.
It can be D section, by which the outer section would
be stronger since there is a straight shear web?
And the inner can be on top, then both can be tapered.
And the halyard and telescope line could be the same?
Here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/477637200_6c9b9bd9b9_o.jpg
And, if the two got stuck up there, you could still
lower the sail.

 regards,


Rob



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#2604 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Tue May 1, 2007 7:09 pm
Subject:: re: telescoping again 		jmichaelcraw...
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  I've become quite a fan of luff pockets over the past five years, but despite my fondness for them, I'm not sure they would be a good fit for the fast proas.

  If you've got a gaff rig like the Wharrams, which fully supports the sail, then you can go to soft Dacron sailcloth without resin stiffeners, and then you can reef pretty easily if the pocket is large enough to collect at the bottom in a pile.  In this case, the efficiency-to-cost and efficiency-to-effort ratios are very impressive.  No sail track or cars to purchase or fail, no mast rotation to fine-tune on each course or wind change.  A brilliant cruising design.

  But I'm not sure I'd go for that gaff on top of a flexible unstayed mast.  Without that gaff, you'd need stiffer sails, either mylar or resin-impregnated Dacron, probably with full battens, and that would cause all sorts of problems with gathering the folds at the pocket, as well as wear and tear on sails that won't have a neat series of spaced cars that allow the sail to flake from side to side. 

  With that said, I'd love to see someone implement brag_rotor's ideas of the gaff wingsail shown in the photos.  But since I'm only an armchair quarterback, I can't really say too much about that.

       - Mike



Rob Denney wrote:

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [harryproa] re: telescoping again

Rob said:
<I am not worried about friction so much as wear on
<the lower mast.

not possible to have plastic where they touch each
other?

<The sail is on slugs in tracks on both the top and
<bottom pieces. Hoist it up the lowered top piece,
<then hoist the top piece, raising the sail up the
<lower piece.

Aha, the outside part is on top. Neat, but then the
flex will be completely odd?

< Boom is bonded to a bearing on the mast. Self <

vanging.

so you can rotate it relative to the mast? Then the
track is starting to sound desireable.

But to me a luff pocket seems way less difficult.
It can be D section, by which the outer section would
be stronger since there is a straight shear web?
And the inner can be on top, then both can be tapered.
And the halyard and telescope line could be the same?
Here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/477637200_6c9b9bd9b9_o.jpg
And, if the two got stuck up there, you could still
lower the sail.

 regards,


Rob



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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10)
#2603 From: "Rob Denney" <proa@...>
Date: Tue May 1, 2007 2:13 am
Subject:: Re: re: telescoping again 		proaharry
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:22 AM
Subject: [harryproa] re: telescoping again

Rob said:
<I am not worried about friction so much as wear on
<the lower mast.

not possible to have plastic where they touch each
other?

That is the plan, but we need to figure out a bullet proof way of attaching it.

<The sail is on slugs in tracks on both the top and
<bottom pieces. Hoist it up the lowered top piece,
<then hoist the top piece, raising the sail up the
<lower piece.

Aha, the outside part is on top. Neat, but then the
flex will be completely odd?

Odd, but not completely.  I hope.  A challenge for the engineer and sailmaker, but they both seem to think it is not insurmountable.


< Boom is bonded to a bearing on the mast. Self <
vanging.

so you can rotate it relative to the mast? Then the
track is starting to sound desireable.

But to me a luff pocket seems way less difficult.
It can be D section, by which the outer section would
be stronger since there is a straight shear web?
And the inner can be on top, then both can be tapered.
And the halyard and telescope line could be the same?
Here:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/477637200_6c9b9bd9b9_o.jpg
And, if the two got stuck up there, you could still
lower the sail.

 

I have a pocket luff on Elementarry.  It is pretty hard work.  First, you need full length battens which need camber inducers which do not work on tapered masts.  Second, when lowered it is very messy.  Third, the sail would have to go over the join during raising and lowering, which is very messy.  The pocket luff would also be different when reefed.

regards,

Rob



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