It is sad to hear but can understand. I thought the tension and
cooperation were a good and productive coordination, but not always
easy. It must be a little frustrating for Mark to have to design for
all those extra sailing loads and subsequent weight, but the regular
money and lack of dealing with sticky stuff would compensate.
I may be interested in helping on the website but am not sure if I
have the skills,
Robert

  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Mark and Michele have left harryproa.     A more or less amicable split,
> neither of us liked the way the others were doing things, so decided
it was
> time to move on.    Mark is now designing and selling catamarans for
Pacific
> Multihulls, I remain designing and selling harryproas.  I wish them both
> well.   Michele is removing their contact details from the web page and
> closing the bank account, but all enquiries from now on should be
sent to me
> at harryproa@...
>
> The good news is that I am now free to pursue my main aim, which is
to get
> harryproas sailing and work on further simplifying the build technique,
> where there is a lot happening.  Anybody with incomplete plan sets
should
> let me know and i will get the missing pages to you as soon as
possible.   I
> have almost completed the amateur built mast plans including a novel
join so
> they can be reliably built in two pieces and the new beam mounted rudder
> plans are available for Elementarry.  They will be available for the
rest of
> the designs as soon as testing them on Blind Date is complete, hopefully
> early this northern summer.
>
> The bad news is that  Michele is not updating the web page any more and
> there is 8 months of progress to report.   I am a bit busy getting
> everything sorted out, including an excting, very light and cheap to
build
> 18m 4 cabin harry and a live aboard 20m version (which makes 6
harrys over
> 18m/60' currently under construction) so if anyone is interested in
helping
> out with the web page, please let me know.
>
> The other bad news is that with so much going on, I have not had
time (or
> money, bust ups are expensive in both) to get Solitarry completed.  The
> hulls and decks are sitting on the Gold Coast after the brand new, very
> expensive, slightly overloaded ;-)  trailer fell apart on the way up
from
> Coffs to Brisbane.  Consequently, no Solo Transpac this year, but
there is
> another one in 2010, so that is the new target, with launching as
soon as
> possible.  More on this as it happens.
>
> As Dan mentioned, there is an article by Mark Giles in the latest
Multihull
> World magazine on the launch and first sails of Blind Date.  Gilesey was
> suitably impressed.  A smoother ride than a cat, his seasick prone
wife now
> wants one, very fast, serious contender in the cruising market,
cheaper than
> a 10m cat,  all the benefits from the web page, etc.   There is also an
> article on Mark's first cat design and some interesting articles.
Cost for
> overseas is $Aus20 including air postage from info@... or ph
> 61) 7 55938187.   Easiest way to pay is by credit card.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>

I wish good luck to all... and I must admit some frustration for the lack of
information on new progress. I still don't have either time and money to
build my own proa, although my boatbuilding job is going well. At least we're
improving our boatbuilding skills... It would be great to sell a harryproa to
a client but while they can't try it, it's difficult. A vicious circle !

Kind regards
--
Nicolas Vivier
Icarai
www.icarai.fr
02 33 41 38 91

----- Original Message -----

From: Rob Denney

Mark and Michele have left harryproa.     A more or less amicable split, neither of us liked the way the others were doing things, so decided it was time to move on.    Mark is now designing and selling catamarans for Pacific Multihulls, I remain designing and selling harryproas.  I wish them both well.  

.

Fellas,
Just bought the latest edition of the Oz mag "Australian Multihull
world" (issue # 89, Mar/April 2008) and it has part 5 of the on going
story of the harryproa "Rare Bird" in it.  This part covers the
launching and the initial sea trails.
Looks great.
I guess those who've been following the story would have already seen
the video footage on u tube as the story actually dates back to July
last year when it was launched, however for those that haven't its a
good read.

Daniel

--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Robert" <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> Consider bamboo strips. Quality bamboo has better characteristics than
> most timbers. Check out the Youngs modulus and breaking strains of the
> bamboo used in fly rods It makes excellent fly rods. I was looking at
> making a wingmast out of bamboo, birch plywood and cedar.

Interesting idea. I have worked with bamboo a little including fly
rods and bows. The main advantage in fly rods is that it allows the
creation of rods with better accuracy in the sections than carbon,
which always has a disorganized spine, and the bamboo has better
damping. In certain situation like light dry fly rods this is a
winning combination. It sure doesn't cast a long line like carbon, and
large rods soon seem like telephone poles. Interestingly there is a
new book out by the ever innovative John Betts for timber fly rods,
apparently they work great, the only problem is that normal casting can
take them past the elastic limits of the materials, but they can work
great for short accurate work.

My recent inspiration is modern glider technology. I have always been
interested in wooden aircraft structures. I have tended to be
influenced by the structures of WWII wooden planes like the well known
Mosquito (locally built in both Canada and Australia), and the Spruce
(birch actually) Goose. I am also interested in Ultralights. Not
until recently did I start to look at sailplanes which are in a lot of
respects a more meaningful standard for comparison.

Sailplanes like yachts have heavy and light air performers. The racing
is mostly in the high speed area, but the wind velocities there are
totally out of wack with sailing speeds. Even the slowest sailplanes
top out in full gale force conditions if we were talking sea surface.
So the specialized area of high lift sailplanes offer the best
comparison.

I haven't run the numbers but the three building systems, wires and
poles, cantilevered wooden tubes, and carbon tubes seem interesting in
comparison with our spar systems. Not that much performance is given
up in moving from carbon to wooden spars. Certainly significant, but
possibly not out of wack with expectations for racing vs. cruising
craft.

Most bolger spars are either solid or hollow wood. This particular
spar is directional and a plywood box section with timber spine. I
don't know that it would work, but it might, and would cost maybe 100
bucks to build at the 32 foot mark. With wood there is the further
possibility of scavenging for free.

--- In harryproa@..., "Robert" <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> Consider bamboo strips. Quality bamboo has better characteristics than
> most timbers. Check out the Youngs modulus and breaking strains of the
> bamboo used in fly rods It makes excellent fly rods. I was looking at
> making a wingmast out of bamboo, birch plywood and cedar.

Interesting idea.  I have worked with bamboo a little including fly
rods and bows.  The main advantage in fly rods is that it allows the
creation of rods with better accuracy in the sections than carbon,
which always has a disorganized spine, and the bamboo has better
damping.  In certain situation like light dry fly rods this is a
winning combination.  It sure doesn't cast a long line like carbon, and
large rods soon seem like telephone poles.  Interestingly there is a
new book out by the ever innovative John Betts for timber fly rods,
apparently they work great, the only problem is that normal casting can
take them past the elastic limits of the materials, but they can work
great for short accurate work.

My recent inspiration is modern glider technology.  I have always been
interested in wooden aircraft structures.  I have tended to be
influenced by the structures of WWII wooden planes like the well known
Mosquito (locally built in both Canada and Australia), and the Spruce
(birch actually) Goose.  I am also interested in Ultralights.  Not
until recently did I start to look at sailplanes which are in a lot of
respects a more meaningful standard for comparison.

Sailplanes like yachts have heavy and light air performers.  The racing
is mostly in the high speed area, but the wind velocities there are
totally out of wack with sailing speeds.  Even the slowest sailplanes
top out in full gale force conditions if we were talking sea surface.
So the specialized area of high lift sailplanes offer the best
comparison.

I haven't run the numbers but the three building systems, wires and
poles, cantilevered wooden tubes, and carbon tubes seem interesting in
comparison with our spar systems.  Not that much performance is given
up in moving from carbon to wooden spars.  Certainly significant, but
possibly not out of wack with expectations for racing vs. cruising
craft.

Most bolger spars are either solid or hollow wood.  This particular
spar is directional and a plywood box section with timber spine.  I
don't know that it would work, but it might, and would cost maybe 100
bucks to build at the 32 foot mark.  With wood there is the further
possibility of scavenging for free.

Consider bamboo strips. Quality bamboo has better characteristics than
most timbers. Check out the Youngs modulus and breaking strains of the
bamboo used in fly rods It makes excellent fly rods. I was looking at
making a wingmast out of bamboo, birch plywood and cedar. The idea was
a laminated beam with ceder on the inside and bamboo on the outside
for handling the side loads and the 2mm birch ply wrapping round the
lot, with some extra bamboo reinforcing for and aft. This was using
the technique for the Jarcat wooden masts, but using the bamboo to
provide the extra strength to go unstayed The numbers worked but it
was over twice the weight of a carbon one.
The Bolger masts are pretty whippy but seem to work OK from what I
have seen on a boat that I often came across sailing down the southern
coast of NSW, but again, I'd consider bamboo strips, or even a big
stick of bamboo, but they must be properly matured and of suitable
species,
  Robert

  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G;day,
>
> It will be heavier, possibly more expensive and will either bend
more or be
> a bigger section than a carbon one, but none of these are deal
breakers if
> you want a wooden stick.  Take lots of pictures and let us know how it
> goes.  Compare the righting moment of the Bolger with the proa to be
sure
> you are in the right ball park.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM, proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...>
> wrote:
>
> >   I was wondering if any have given any further thought to a timber
> > spar. Don't freak, I know the carbon spar business is in need of
> > support. and that the carbon spar is the key to the whole design for
> > 90% of the people contenplating this design. I was just thinking of an
> > unstayed Bolger spar I have the scantlings for, and it uses an
> > interesting constrution where the back of the spar is solid timber
> > boards and the front section is light plywood. The rig was something
> > like a lug or just a leg o mutton where the loads would pull
forward on
> > the spar in a single direction. It occured to me that a similar thing
> > might be feasible on the aero rig since the spar rotates and the loads
> > could thus be kept in line with the heavier section. Not sure what
> > this would be useful for, possibly the original idea of a low
> > resistance cruiser of low cost. It would presumably just be an interim
> > rig until some time had passed and experience piled up and a move to a
> > better rig could be arranged.
> >
> >
> >
>

I can't see why bow burying should be a problem. The boat with a high
prismatic coeffient and long bows has plenty of hydrostatic lift with
a long lever arm and therefore has plenty of resistance to burying. As
soon as you start adding extras, you tend to cause extra drag as the
boat goes through waves, and if you have the wind behind you,
increasing the load on the bows, slowing the boat even more, and
possibly leading to pitchpoling. The bows, as they are, shed water
easily. There are good reasons for the latest crop of round the world
racing tris going to low resistance bows. If hydrodynamic lift is
required, it is better further back, using well constructed foils that
could lift the boat and reduce resistance. But that is a very
different concept.
  Consider the way that the bows meet a wave. The low down bouyancy
meets the wave early and starts to gradually lift the boat and if the
wave is steep, will go through the wave, still lifting the bows with
hydrostatic lift, but not slowing the boat too suddenly, until it
starts to come out of the back of the wave still shedding water, and
having provided enough lift to hopefully allow the crossbeams to clear
the wave. Compare this with a bow with greater flare and more rocker.
The bow hits the wave and bounces up if the wave is small, stalling
the boat and making a mess of the flow of air across the sail. If the
wave is too big and steep, then the bows will bury and because of the
flared bow, there will be more resistance to the bows lifting again.
One needs to consider that the bows of any boat are depressed enough
to counteract the lever arm of the driving force, ie the sails. The
lower the resistance , the less force needed to drive the boat and the
lower the leverage pressing the bows down. By having little or no
rocker, long bows and plenty of bouyancy low, the boat sails very
flat. A boat with more rocker, less low down bouyancy, shorter bows
and flare in the bow, would be nose down in similar circumstances with
a much more variable lift and resistance as it tried to go over or
through waves and less ability to shed water off its top sides.
  I must admit, the concept of flying down the face of a wave into the
back of another, does not appeal , but when closely looking at the
dynamics, I do not see any advantage in adding bits. (Though I had
considered the idea of a small 'Whale  Tail' appendages below the
waterline, that were prevented from going above the horizontal when
the boat was pressing down and angled enough on the way up to add to
propulsion. Something like the fins on a mirage drive. The complexity
I think makes it impractical).
  I think cheers is a wonderful boat and followed closely its original
passage across the Atlantic but do not consider the Hobie 16 shaped
bows the way to go for the open ocean.
  Robert


--- In harryproa@..., "Gunnar Westholm"
<gunnar.westholm@...> wrote:
>
> How aboue the bow design as on Cheers:
>
http://membres.lycos.fr/ugmarie/zacheers/cheersjpg/rougevinbaville/cheersparroug\
evinbaville0005.html
> No extra drag in water or wind...
>
> /Gunnar
>
>
> 2008/2/24, numar28 <nuno.marques@...>:
> >
> >   Bow burrying is one of my concerns with this design, any one
> > considered if the addition of side lifting strakes would improve
> > this characteristic? drag wise eventually would be less or similar
> > to lenghtening the hull.
> > Regarding the reported drag streams at the rudders, it looks like
> > this is what we call in hydrodynamics 'ventilation' . To cure this
> > in a previous catamaran I owned, with stern hung rudders, I used a
> > suggestion from the Marchaj(?)book, adding a ring of about one
> > inch wide perpendicular to the rudder profile and paralel to the
> > water line, in my case in line with the continuation of the hull
> > (5CM deep) but in the case of side hung rudders I would place them
> > deeper in a way to never be exposed above water surface even when ww
> > hull flies.
> > My rudders became much more responsive (just like on a rail track)
> > and ventilation disapeared.
> >
> > rgds,
> >
> > Nuno
> > --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>, "Rob
> > Denney" <harryproa@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > Excellent! Any idea how quick it goes with the hull up? How much
> > wind to
> > > get it flying? Have you got a plan for it it goes over? The
> > masts will
> > > float, but make sure they are tied into the boat or it gets messy
> > when the
> > > boat is on it's side with the masts pointing upwind. The hulls
> > blow down
> > > wind and the masts stay where they are.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > On Feb 14, 2008 10:35 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Sailing getting up in air easily, steering to controllift. Nose
> > not
> > > > digging too bad, but rudder develops those drag streams -
> > separation off the
> > > > foil at about time get airborne. Not fair enough after adding
> > extra
> > > > elongation recently
> > > > Doug
> > > >
> > > > *Doug Haines <doha720@>* wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Sailing's been pretty good lately, fast and fun, and mostly dry.
> > > > I get to the limit of my nerves or of the boat fairly easily
> > now - the ww
> > > > hull has definitely been up out of the water, immediately at
> > which time I
> > > > dumped sheet.
> > > > The other thing that is limiting is the bow burying into the
> > water. It
> > > > could probably take more submersion, but I get too scared and
> > ease off. The
> > > > hull is lifting up a bit usually at about the time that the bow
> > is digging
> > > > in a lot, so all in all I just ease sheets and speed drops back
> > to like 9-10
> > > > knots. The top speed has been around 13-14 knots. Using GPS lent
> > to me.
> > > > FAirly satisfied with that I guess.
> > > > Sail are could stay the same and a longer lw hull would increase
> > speed a
> > > > lot. My overall beam is very narrow only 3.?m and is about right
> > for current
> > > > dimensions of rest of boat.
> > > > Extra metre beam would combine with a longer lw hull and make
> > more speed
> > > > possible.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe harrygami size lw hull, 4.5m overall beam, and two
> > schooner masts
> > > > with just a bit more area than mine with flat heads/fat heads
> > sail tops.?
> > > >
> > > > Good enough as is though. Tough enough to anchor (pulling up),
> > lots of
> > > > windage, especially when sails hoisted, woudn't like any more
> > work than
> > > > already have.
> > > >
> > > > Doug
> > > >
> > > > *Rob Denney <harryproa@>* wrote:
> > > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > I have put some photos in the Files section (not sure why I
> > didn't put
> > > > them in Photos). They are not pretty and it is definitely time to
> > > > paint all the changes and mistakes, but they work. Any
> > questions, let
> > > > me know.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 21, 2008 5:55 PM, Jim Baltaxe
> > <jim.baltaxe@<jim.baltaxe%40vuw.ac.nz>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Mark &al
> > > > >
> > > > > Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam mounted
> > rudders?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > >
> > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find
> > one.
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > > > harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>] On
> > > > > Behalf Of Mark Stephens
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 11:20 p.m.
> > > > > To: harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The biggest negative about the hull hung rudders, well the mk
> > 2 version,
> > > > is
> > > > > they would be difficult to replace once the shear pins broke.
> > At the
> > > > moment
> > > > > they are designed to 'break away' in the event of a collision.
> > You would
> > > > > then have to retrieve them from the end of the attachment line
> > and refit
> > > > > them with new shear pins. This may seem like a big
> > disadvantage but it
> > > > will
> > > > > only happen in a catastrophic event which would render any
> > catamaran
> > > > with a
> > > > > stuck and broken daggerboard at best and a split hull and bent
> > rudder
> > > > shaft
> > > > > at worst.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are not in the business of selling boats using boatshows and
> > > > brochures.
> > > > > We are enthusiasts trying to promote the proa as a viable
> > alternative to
> > > > > people who understand that Harryproas don't have the decades of
> > > > development
> > > > > other multis have. Some things, rudders in particular, will go
> > through
> > > > many
> > > > > iterations before the perfect solution is reached and we keep
> > all of our
> > > > > developments transparent. Maybe not commercially sensible but
> > that's not
> > > > > what we are about. I'm sure all those subscribed to this group
> > are here
> > > > > because of this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hopefully the beam mounted rudders will prove to be the best
> > option. Rob
> > > > has
> > > > > experimented with them and they seem to be working well. The
> > biggest
> > > > concern
> > > > > was the distance from the boats centre but this has proven OK
> > on
> > > > > Elementarry. Blind Date will be trying them as will Solitarry.
> > As they
> > > > will
> > > > > kick up in both directions and won't be as draggy let's hope
> > they prove
> > > > > successful.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob Denney wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > G'day,
> > > > >
> > > > > The side of hull mounted rudders work well, as did the in hull
> > dagger
> > > > > rudders before them and the in hull spade rudders before them.
> > They
> > > > > are far better than the rudders and daggerboards in most
> > multihulls.
> > > > > However, none were the perfect solution and this is what we are
> > > > > looking for. The beam mounted rudders are another (quite
> > large) step
> > > > > in this direction and have been tested by me on my
> > Elementarry, and
> > > > > now on my solo boat. They will then be included in the plans.
> > > > > Anyone who is now at the rudder stage of their build should
> > discuss
> > > > > the options before they proceed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because I believe it is in everyone's interest if I am upfront
> > about
> > > > > what we are doing and give details of experiments that have
> > been tried
> > > > > (rail mounted riudders etc) there is a lot of discussion.
> > These are
> > > > > ideas, not "designs" and they may or may not end up on the
> > plans.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rudders and daggerboards/keels are the "Achilles heel" of
> > almost all
> > > > > boats. We are trying to reduce the potential for damage,
> > reduce the
> > > > > cost and improve the performance rather than taking the stance
> > of the
> > > > > rest of the industry that there is nothing that can be done
> > about it
> > > > > and that it is normal for daggerboards to break and hulls to
> > split
> > > > > when they collide with something and that boats should be
> > confined to
> > > > > deep water because of the depth of their rudders.
> > > > >
> > > > > The side of hull rudders in dagger cases do hit a fair bit of
> > water
> > > > > as can be seen in the Rare Bird video. They may or may not be
> > > > > draggier than the conventional slot for daggerboards. They are
> > not
> > > > > likely to cause any handling problems and the spray they kick
> > up is
> > > > > not likely to reach the cockpit. They do have the advantage
> > that in a
> > > > > collision, they kick up and in storms, shallow water and on the
> > > > > mooring, they can be lifted. Their biggest advantage is that
> > in the
> > > > > event of damage, there are no holes below the waterline.
> > > > >
> > > > > The beam mounted rudders keep all these advantages and solve
> > the spray
> > > > > problem. They are also considerably easier to build.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 1:54 PM, Jim Baltaxe
> > <jim.baltaxe@<jim.baltaxe%40vuw.ac.nz>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there,
> > or has
> > > > there
> > > > > > been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob
> > and others
> > > > > have
> > > > > > been concerned about the lower brackets being caught by
> > waves, designs
> > > > > have
> > > > > > been posted for rudders hung from the akas and there was
> > even a
> > > > proposal
> > > > > to
> > > > > > hang rudders from stub akas. I'm not even talking about
> > hanging a
> > > > single
> > > > > > rudder/daggerboard from a track on the lee hull and hauling
> > it end to
> > > > end
> > > > > > during a shunt.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am aware that there are other things than simple strength
> > or turning
> > > > > > moment involved in rudder design but it seems to be received
> > knowledge
> > > > > that
> > > > > > rudders are the "Achilles heel" of proas.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enjoy
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't
> > find one.
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From:
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > > > harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>]
> > > > > On
> > > > > > Behalf Of Robert
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, 14 January 2008 4:01 p.m.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To: harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Hi Jim,
> > > > > > I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha'
> > in the
> > > > > > earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on
> > one of the
> > > > > > rudders so it must be good! I cant see any problems with the
> > rudders
> > > > > > as far as slowing the boat down and Rare Bird was a good
> > pilot study
> > > > > > for the robustness. The brackets are strong enough to take
> > the sailing
> > > > > > loads so the bit of slapping won't worry them. There is not
> > much
> > > > > > increase in wetted area if the brackets hit a wave and it
> > would damp
> > > > > > even further the minimal chance of hobby horsing, which
> > could actually
> > > > > > improve performance. (I reckon they also provides a means of
> > getting
> > > > > > on board again from in the water)
> > > > > > Coming over bars is a good test for robustness
> > maneuverability and
> > > > > > handling.
> > > > > > Wish you well in the legal wrangles,and I am sure that Bain
> > would be
> > > > > > happy for Aroha to go to a good home,
> > > > > > Robert--
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>, "Jim
> > > > Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Robert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I did get out onto him/her on the last day before Bain so
> > kindly
> > > > took me
> > > > > > > to the airport, but unfortunately it was pelting down like
> > mad. We
> > > > rowed
> > > > > > > out to the boat, moored in a river near Bain's house and
> > had a good
> > > > look
> > > > > > > around but never got off the mooring. We had neither the
> > time nor
> > > > the
> > > > > > > breeze to prove much.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The boat appears to be very well built and very much what
> > I do want.
> > > > > > > Enough room for one or two people for extended coastal
> > cruising and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > pop-up canopy over the upper cockpit was a cozy place for
> > us to
> > > > shelter
> > > > > > > in the rain and talk about, as well as look at, the boat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My only real reservation about the design is the ongoing
> > question of
> > > > > > > rudder attachments. Aroha's appear solid but the lower
> > brackets
> > > > > > > certainly will certainly be caught in almost anything more
> > than a
> > > > flat
> > > > > > > sea. I really don't know whether that would make much
> > difference to
> > > > > > > overall performance, though.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I did see Aroha come across the bar into the river a
> > couple of days
> > > > > > > earlier and it was an impressive sight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am still working on the legal and financial issues so I
> > am hoping
> > > > that
> > > > > > > I will be able to make a reasonable offer fairly soon. In
> > the
> > > > meantime,
> > > > > > > I do wish Bain good luck and if I miss out, so be it. If
> > everything
> > > > > > > works well, perhaps I'll be able to get across for another
> > look and
> > > > a
> > > > > > > ride later this year.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Enjoy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't
> > find one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From:
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > > > harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2008 11:58 p.m.
> > > > > > > To:
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -G'day Jim,
> > > > > > > Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not a nice situation
> > but there
> > > > can
> > > > > > > be an afterlife
> > > > > > > Did you get a chance to sail on Aroha?
> > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -- In
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Jim Baltaxe"
> > > > > > > <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Robert &al
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm in exactly the same position which is why I've had
> > my head
> > > > down
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > a while, since Derek's workshop and my visit with Bain.
> > I'm still
> > > > > > > trying
> > > > > > > > to work out the "disengagement" (what else do you call
> > a "divorce"
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > a legally recognised, long-term, relationship?) so that
> > perhaps I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > > get the money together. Sorry Bain but I am trying,
> > really hard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Enjoy
> > > > > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > > > > > 209 Derwent Street
> > > > > > > > Island Bay, Wellington
> > > > > > > > NEW ZEALAND
> > > > > > > > +64 (04) 938 6018
> > > > > > > > 027 563 5018
> > > > > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I
> > couldn't find
> > > > one.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From:
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > <harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > >
[mailto:harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > <harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> ]
> > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2007 4:16 p.m.
> > > > > > > > To:
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au><harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -waiting with bated breath for the next development of
> > the Harry.
> > > > Love
> > > > > > > > to see the promised photos of Sidecar and Solitarry I am
> > still
> > > > keen to
> > > > > > > > get a Harry but health and wealth defy me. The concept
> > still makes
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > most sense to me and the boats out there look pretty
> > good. If I
> > > > had
> > > > > > > > the cash I'd probably just buy Bain's Aroha and get
> > sailing.
> > > > > > > > Meanwhile I'm investigating doing a KSS system using
> > polyprop and
> > > > > > > > epoxy with an end bulkhead with foam ends.
> > > > > > > > Robert
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -- In
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > <harryproa%
> > 40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "vertiges59"
> > > > <vertiges59@>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Nobody more in this group ?????
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release
> > Date:
> > > > 14/01/2008
> > > > > 5:39 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
> > for
> > Good<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd
> > .yahoo.com/evt=51947/*http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try
> > it
> > now<http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTc
> > xOTAEc2VjA21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Bow burrying is one of my concerns with this design, any one
considered if the addition of side lifting strakes would improve
this characteristic? drag wise eventually would be less or similar
to lenghtening the hull.
Regarding the reported drag streams at the rudders, it looks like
this is what we call in hydrodynamics 'ventilation' . To cure this
in a previous catamaran I owned, with stern hung rudders, I used a
suggestion from the Marchaj(?)book, adding a ring of about one
inch wide perpendicular to the rudder profile and paralel to the
water line, in my case in line with the continuation of the hull
(5CM deep) but in the case of side hung rudders I would place them
deeper in a way to never be exposed above water surface even when ww
hull flies.
My rudders became much more responsive (just like on a rail track)
and ventilation disapeared.

rgds,

Nuno
   --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Excellent!  Any idea how quick it goes with the hull up?  How much
wind to
> get it flying?  Have you got a plan for it it goes over?  The
masts will
> float, but make sure they are tied into the boat or it gets messy
when the
> boat is on it's side with the masts pointing upwind.  The hulls
blow down
> wind and the masts stay where they are.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Feb 14, 2008 10:35 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> >   Hi,
> >
> > Sailing getting up in air easily, steering to controllift. Nose
not
> > digging too bad, but rudder develops those drag streams -
separation off the
> > foil at about time get airborne. Not fair enough after adding
extra
> > elongation recently
> >  Doug
> >
> > *Doug Haines <doha720@...>* wrote:
> >
> >  Hi,
> >
> > Sailing's been pretty good lately, fast and fun, and mostly dry.
> > I get to the limit of my nerves or of the boat fairly easily
now - the ww
> > hull has definitely been up out of the water, immediately at
which time I
> > dumped sheet.
> > The other thing that is limiting is the bow burying into the
water. It
> > could probably take more submersion, but I get too scared and
ease off. The
> > hull is lifting  up a bit usually at about the time that the bow
is digging
> > in a lot, so all in all I just ease sheets and speed drops back
to like 9-10
> > knots. The top speed has been around 13-14 knots. Using GPS lent
to me.
> > FAirly satisfied with that I guess.
> > Sail are could stay the same and a longer lw hull would increase
speed a
> > lot. My overall beam is very narrow only 3.?m and is about right
for current
> > dimensions of rest of boat.
> > Extra metre beam would combine with a longer lw hull and make
more speed
> > possible.
> >
> > Maybe harrygami size lw hull, 4.5m overall beam, and two
schooner masts
> > with just a bit more area than mine with flat heads/fat heads
sail tops.?
> >
> > Good enough as is though. Tough enough to anchor (pulling up),
lots of
> > windage, especially when sails hoisted, woudn't like any more
work than
> > already have.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > *Rob Denney <harryproa@...>* wrote:
> >
> >  G'day,
> >
> > I have put some photos in the Files section (not sure why I
didn't put
> > them in Photos). They are not pretty and it is definitely time to
> > paint all the changes and mistakes, but they work. Any
questions, let
> > me know.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On Jan 21, 2008 5:55 PM, Jim Baltaxe
<jim.baltaxe@...<jim.baltaxe%40vuw.ac.nz>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Mark &al
> > >
> > > Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam mounted
rudders?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Enjoy
> > >
> > > Jim Baltaxe
> > >
> > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find
one.
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > harryproa@... <harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>] On
> > > Behalf Of Mark Stephens
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 11:20 p.m.
> > > To: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The biggest negative about the hull hung rudders, well the mk
2 version,
> > is
> > > they would be difficult to replace once the shear pins broke.
At the
> > moment
> > > they are designed to 'break away' in the event of a collision.
You would
> > > then have to retrieve them from the end of the attachment line
and refit
> > > them with new shear pins. This may seem like a big
disadvantage but it
> > will
> > > only happen in a catastrophic event which would render any
catamaran
> > with a
> > > stuck and broken daggerboard at best and a split hull and bent
rudder
> > shaft
> > > at worst.
> > >
> > > We are not in the business of selling boats using boatshows and
> > brochures.
> > > We are enthusiasts trying to promote the proa as a viable
alternative to
> > > people who understand that Harryproas don't have the decades of
> > development
> > > other multis have. Some things, rudders in particular, will go
through
> > many
> > > iterations before the perfect solution is reached and we keep
all of our
> > > developments transparent. Maybe not commercially sensible but
that's not
> > > what we are about. I'm sure all those subscribed to this group
are here
> > > because of this.
> > >
> > > Hopefully the beam mounted rudders will prove to be the best
option. Rob
> > has
> > > experimented with them and they seem to be working well. The
biggest
> > concern
> > > was the distance from the boats centre but this has proven OK
on
> > > Elementarry. Blind Date will be trying them as will Solitarry.
As they
> > will
> > > kick up in both directions and won't be as draggy let's hope
they prove
> > > successful.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > Rob Denney wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > The side of hull mounted rudders work well, as did the in hull
dagger
> > > rudders before them and the in hull spade rudders before them.
They
> > > are far better than the rudders and daggerboards in most
multihulls.
> > > However, none were the perfect solution and this is what we are
> > > looking for. The beam mounted rudders are another (quite
large) step
> > > in this direction and have been tested by me on my
Elementarry, and
> > > now on my solo boat. They will then be included in the plans.
> > > Anyone who is now at the rudder stage of their build should
discuss
> > > the options before they proceed.
> > >
> > > Because I believe it is in everyone's interest if I am upfront
about
> > > what we are doing and give details of experiments that have
been tried
> > > (rail mounted riudders etc) there is a lot of discussion.
These are
> > > ideas, not "designs" and they may or may not end up on the
plans.
> > >
> > > Rudders and daggerboards/keels are the "Achilles heel" of
almost all
> > > boats. We are trying to reduce the potential for damage,
reduce the
> > > cost and improve the performance rather than taking the stance
of the
> > > rest of the industry that there is nothing that can be done
about it
> > > and that it is normal for daggerboards to break and hulls to
split
> > > when they collide with something and that boats should be
confined to
> > > deep water because of the depth of their rudders.
> > >
> > > The side of hull rudders in dagger cases do hit a fair bit of
water
> > > as can be seen in the Rare Bird video. They may or may not be
> > > draggier than the conventional slot for daggerboards. They are
not
> > > likely to cause any handling problems and the spray they kick
up is
> > > not likely to reach the cockpit. They do have the advantage
that in a
> > > collision, they kick up and in storms, shallow water and on the
> > > mooring, they can be lifted. Their biggest advantage is that
in the
> > > event of damage, there are no holes below the waterline.
> > >
> > > The beam mounted rudders keep all these advantages and solve
the spray
> > > problem. They are also considerably easier to build.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > On Jan 15, 2008 1:54 PM, Jim Baltaxe
<jim.baltaxe@...<jim.baltaxe%40vuw.ac.nz>>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Robert
> > > >
> > > > If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there,
or has
> > there
> > > > been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob
and others
> > > have
> > > > been concerned about the lower brackets being caught by
waves, designs
> > > have
> > > > been posted for rudders hung from the akas and there was
even a
> > proposal
> > > to
> > > > hang rudders from stub akas. I'm not even talking about
hanging a
> > single
> > > > rudder/daggerboard from a track on the lee hull and hauling
it end to
> > end
> > > > during a shunt.
> > > >
> > > > I am aware that there are other things than simple strength
or turning
> > > > moment involved in rudder design but it seems to be received
knowledge
> > > that
> > > > rudders are the "Achilles heel" of proas.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy
> > > >
> > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > >
> > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't
find one.
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > harryproa@... <harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Robert
> > > > Sent: Monday, 14 January 2008 4:01 p.m.
> > > >
> > > > To: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Hi Jim,
> > > > I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha'
in the
> > > > earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on
one of the
> > > > rudders so it must be good! I cant see any problems with the
rudders
> > > > as far as slowing the boat down and Rare Bird was a good
pilot study
> > > > for the robustness. The brackets are strong enough to take
the sailing
> > > > loads so the bit of slapping won't worry them. There is not
much
> > > > increase in wetted area if the brackets hit a wave and it
would damp
> > > > even further the minimal chance of hobby horsing, which
could actually
> > > > improve performance. (I reckon they also provides a means of
getting
> > > > on board again from in the water)
> > > > Coming over bars is a good test for robustness
maneuverability and
> > > > handling.
> > > > Wish you well in the legal wrangles,and I am sure that Bain
would be
> > > > happy for Aroha to go to a good home,
> > > > Robert--
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>, "Jim
> > Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Robert
> > > > >
> > > > > I did get out onto him/her on the last day before Bain so
kindly
> > took me
> > > > > to the airport, but unfortunately it was pelting down like
mad. We
> > rowed
> > > > > out to the boat, moored in a river near Bain's house and
had a good
> > look
> > > > > around but never got off the mooring. We had neither the
time nor
> > the
> > > > > breeze to prove much.
> > > > >
> > > > > The boat appears to be very well built and very much what
I do want.
> > > > > Enough room for one or two people for extended coastal
cruising and
> > the
> > > > > pop-up canopy over the upper cockpit was a cozy place for
us to
> > shelter
> > > > > in the rain and talk about, as well as look at, the boat.
> > > > >
> > > > > My only real reservation about the design is the ongoing
question of
> > > > > rudder attachments. Aroha's appear solid but the lower
brackets
> > > > > certainly will certainly be caught in almost anything more
than a
> > flat
> > > > > sea. I really don't know whether that would make much
difference to
> > > > > overall performance, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did see Aroha come across the bar into the river a
couple of days
> > > > > earlier and it was an impressive sight.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am still working on the legal and financial issues so I
am hoping
> > that
> > > > > I will be able to make a reasonable offer fairly soon. In
the
> > meantime,
> > > > > I do wish Bain good luck and if I miss out, so be it. If
everything
> > > > > works well, perhaps I'll be able to get across for another
look and
> > a
> > > > > ride later this year.
> > > > >
> > > > > Enjoy
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > >
> > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't
find one.
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > From: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>[mailto:
> > harryproa@... <harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>]
> > > >
> > > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2008 11:58 p.m.
> > > > > To: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -G'day Jim,
> > > > > Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not a nice situation
but there
> > can
> > > > > be an afterlife
> > > > > Did you get a chance to sail on Aroha?
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > > -- In harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Jim Baltaxe"
> > > > > <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Robert &al
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm in exactly the same position which is why I've had
my head
> > down
> > > > > for
> > > > > > a while, since Derek's workshop and my visit with Bain.
I'm still
> > > > > trying
> > > > > > to work out the "disengagement" (what else do you call
a "divorce"
> > > > > from
> > > > > > a legally recognised, long-term, relationship?) so that
perhaps I
> > can
> > > > > > get the money together. Sorry Bain but I am trying,
really hard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Enjoy
> > > > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > > > 209 Derwent Street
> > > > > > Island Bay, Wellington
> > > > > > NEW ZEALAND
> > > > > > +64 (04) 938 6018
> > > > > > 027 563 5018
> > > > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I
couldn't find
> > one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: harryproa@...<harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > [mailto:harryproa@...<harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> ]
> > > > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2007 4:16 p.m.
> > > > > > To: harryproa@... <harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -waiting with bated breath for the next development of
the Harry.
> > Love
> > > > > > to see the promised photos of Sidecar and Solitarry I am
still
> > keen to
> > > > > > get a Harry but health and wealth defy me. The concept
still makes
> > the
> > > > > > most sense to me and the boats out there look pretty
good. If I
> > had
> > > > > > the cash I'd probably just buy Bain's Aroha and get
sailing.
> > > > > > Meanwhile I'm investigating doing a KSS system using
polyprop and
> > > > > > epoxy with an end bulkhead with foam ends.
> > > > > > Robert
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -- In harryproa@...<harryproa%
40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "vertiges59"
> > <vertiges59@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nobody more in this group ?????
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release
Date:
> > 14/01/2008
> > > 5:39 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------
> > Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo!
for
Good<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd
.yahoo.com/evt=51947/*http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try
it
now<http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTc
xOTAEc2VjA21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU>.
> >
> >
> >
>

I was wondering if any have given any further thought to a timber
spar.  Don't freak, I know the carbon spar business is in need of
support. and that the carbon spar is the key to the whole design for
90% of the people contenplating this design.  I was just thinking of an
unstayed Bolger spar I have the scantlings for, and it uses an
interesting constrution where the back of the spar is solid timber
boards and the front section is light plywood.  The rig was something
like a lug or just a leg o mutton where the loads would pull forward on
the spar in a single direction.  It occured to me that a similar thing
might be feasible on the aero rig since the spar rotates and the loads
could thus be kept in line with the heavier section.  Not sure what
this would be useful for, possibly the original idea of a low
resistance cruiser of low cost.  It would presumably just be an interim
rig until some time had passed and experience piled up and a move to a
better rig could be arranged.

Mike,

 

I first started with a little bit of sailing, then started building, now I'm a bit over building and sailing though I want to sail this one around the place and then make another kick ass big beast - just taking time to accomplish.

 

Thanks

Doug

Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi.net> wrote:

Doug,

  You've really done a great job with that boat. 

  Most of the people on the various proa forums, including myself, are full of theories that they're more than happy to share with the world, but have little or no actual experience.  There are darn few people like you who actually go out and do it.  And you're not just daysailing around the harbor either, but actually going places.

  While others have said this before, I still have to agree: you deserve a lot of respect for what you're doing.  Good show.

       - Mike


Douglas Alexander Frank Haines wrote:
> Just some funny ones threading the haliard down the mast using the
> bridge walkway.
>
> Doug
>
>

---

Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

just checking into this group. Thanks for all this fantastic stuff. My
interest concentrates on the Solitarry as a very fast boat with off
shore capabilities. Looking at the picture files the first time I
noticed in the file "Solitarry 7m ww hull" that a core? for the
infused laminate seems to be pink high density foam? I have problems
interpreting what I see. I probably got it all wrong. Anyway a
question: would the ww hull with the core material have positive
flotation? and if yes - how much approx.?

Heiner

----- Original Message -----

From: Rob Denney

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 8:42 PM

Subject: Re: [harryproa] Sail magazine

G'day,

Sail magazine does not get here for 6 weeks or so.  Any chance of scanning it and sending it to me?

Thanks.

Regards,

Rob

On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 8:56 AM, PCKing <pc.king@comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

 

The March 2008 US issue of Sail magazine described Harryproa in the New Boats column on page 46. The Kaidoz 31 received more picture space and less text. The second half of the article is titled "Let's all shunt together". It's a short overview of modern proas beginning with Cheers and ending with a couple of columns on Blind Date.  

 

Peter C. King

Chattanooga, TN, USA

  

Nice pictures , do you have close-ups of your cabin arrangements?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 20, 2008, at 2:03 AM, "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Just some funny ones threading the haliasrd down the mast using the
bridge walkway.

Doug

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Doug,

  You've really done a great job with that boat. 

  Most of the people on the various proa forums, including myself, are full of theories that they're more than happy to share with the world, but have little or no actual experience.  There are darn few people like you who actually go out and do it.  And you're not just daysailing around the harbor either, but actually going places.

  While others have said this before, I still have to agree: you deserve a lot of respect for what you're doing.  Good show.

       - Mike


Douglas Alexander Frank Haines wrote:
> Just some funny ones threading the haliard down the mast using the
> bridge walkway.
>
> Doug
>
>

G'day,

Excellent!  Any idea how quick it goes with the hull up?  How much wind to get it flying?  Have you got a plan for it it goes over?  The masts will float, but make sure they are tied into the boat or it gets messy when the boat is on it's side with the masts pointing upwind.  The hulls blow down wind and the masts stay where they are. 

regards,

Rob

On Feb 14, 2008 10:35 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

 

Sailing getting up in air easily, steering to controllift. Nose not digging too bad, but rudder develops those drag streams - separation off the foil at about time get airborne. Not fair enough after adding extra elongation recently

 Doug

Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Hi,

 

Sailing's been pretty good lately, fast and fun, and mostly dry.

I get to the limit of my nerves or of the boat fairly easily now - the ww hull has definitely been up out of the water, immediately at which time I dumped sheet.

The other thing that is limiting is the bow burying into the water. It could probably take more submersion, but I get too scared and ease off. The hull is lifting  up a bit usually at about the time that the bow is digging in a lot, so all in all I just ease sheets and speed drops back to like 9-10 knots. The top speed has been around 13-14 knots. Using GPS lent to me.

FAirly satisfied with that I guess.

Sail are could stay the same and a longer lw hull would increase speed a lot. My overall beam is very narrow only 3.?m and is about right for current dimensions of rest of boat.

Extra metre beam would combine with a longer lw hull and make more speed possible.

 

Maybe harrygami size lw hull, 4.5m overall beam, and two schooner masts with just a bit more area than mine with flat heads/fat heads sail tops.?

 

Good enough as is though. Tough enough to anchor (pulling up), lots of windage, especially when sails hoisted, woudn't like any more work than already have.

 

Doug

Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com> wrote:

G'day,

I have put some photos in the Files section (not sure why I didn't put
them in Photos). They are not pretty and it is definitely time to
paint all the changes and mistakes, but they work. Any questions, let
me know.

regards,

Rob

On Jan 21, 2008 5:55 PM, Jim Baltaxe <jim.baltaxe@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Mark &al
>
> Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam mounted rudders?
>
>
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
>
> They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> ________________________________
> From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On
> Behalf Of Mark Stephens
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 11:20 p.m.
> To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
>
>
>
>
>
> The biggest negative about the hull hung rudders, well the mk 2 version, is
> they would be difficult to replace once the shear pins broke. At the moment
> they are designed to 'break away' in the event of a collision. You would
> then have to retrieve them from the end of the attachment line and refit
> them with new shear pins. This may seem like a big disadvantage but it will
> only happen in a catastrophic event which would render any catamaran with a
> stuck and broken daggerboard at best and a split hull and bent rudder shaft
> at worst.
>
> We are not in the business of selling boats using boatshows and brochures.
> We are enthusiasts trying to promote the proa as a viable alternative to
> people who understand that Harryproas don't have the decades of development
> other multis have. Some things, rudders in particular, will go through many
> iterations before the perfect solution is reached and we keep all of our
> developments transparent. Maybe not commercially sensible but that's not
> what we are about. I'm sure all those subscribed to this group are here
> because of this.
>
> Hopefully the beam mounted rudders will prove to be the best option. Rob has
> experimented with them and they seem to be working well. The biggest concern
> was the distance from the boats centre but this has proven OK on
> Elementarry. Blind Date will be trying them as will Solitarry. As they will
> kick up in both directions and won't be as draggy let's hope they prove
> successful.
>
> Mark
>
> Rob Denney wrote:
>
>
>
> G'day,
>
> The side of hull mounted rudders work well, as did the in hull dagger
> rudders before them and the in hull spade rudders before them. They
> are far better than the rudders and daggerboards in most multihulls.
> However, none were the perfect solution and this is what we are
> looking for. The beam mounted rudders are another (quite large) step
> in this direction and have been tested by me on my Elementarry, and
> now on my solo boat. They will then be included in the plans.
> Anyone who is now at the rudder stage of their build should discuss
> the options before they proceed.
>
> Because I believe it is in everyone's interest if I am upfront about
> what we are doing and give details of experiments that have been tried
> (rail mounted riudders etc) there is a lot of discussion. These are
> ideas, not "designs" and they may or may not end up on the plans.
>
> Rudders and daggerboards/keels are the "Achilles heel" of almost all
> boats. We are trying to reduce the potential for damage, reduce the
> cost and improve the performance rather than taking the stance of the
> rest of the industry that there is nothing that can be done about it
> and that it is normal for daggerboards to break and hulls to split
> when they collide with something and that boats should be confined to
> deep water because of the depth of their rudders.
>
> The side of hull rudders in dagger cases do hit a fair bit of water
> as can be seen in the Rare Bird video. They may or may not be
> draggier than the conventional slot for daggerboards. They are not
> likely to cause any handling problems and the spray they kick up is
> not likely to reach the cockpit. They do have the advantage that in a
> collision, they kick up and in storms, shallow water and on the
> mooring, they can be lifted. Their biggest advantage is that in the
> event of damage, there are no holes below the waterline.
>
> The beam mounted rudders keep all these advantages and solve the spray
> problem. They are also considerably easier to build.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Jan 15, 2008 1:54 PM, Jim Baltaxe <jim.baltaxe@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Robert
> >
> > If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there, or has there
> > been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob and others
> have
> > been concerned about the lower brackets being caught by waves, designs
> have
> > been posted for rudders hung from the akas and there was even a proposal
> to
> > hang rudders from stub akas. I'm not even talking about hanging a single
> > rudder/daggerboard from a track on the lee hull and hauling it end to end
> > during a shunt.
> >
> > I am aware that there are other things than simple strength or turning
> > moment involved in rudder design but it seems to be received knowledge
> that
> > rudders are the "Achilles heel" of proas.
> >
> >
> >
> > Enjoy
> >
> > Jim Baltaxe
> >
> > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > ________________________________
> > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au]
> On
> > Behalf Of Robert
> > Sent: Monday, 14 January 2008 4:01 p.m.
> >
> > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Hi Jim,
> > I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha' in the
> > earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on one of the
> > rudders so it must be good! I cant see any problems with the rudders
> > as far as slowing the boat down and Rare Bird was a good pilot study
> > for the robustness. The brackets are strong enough to take the sailing
> > loads so the bit of slapping won't worry them. There is not much
> > increase in wetted area if the brackets hit a wave and it would damp
> > even further the minimal chance of hobby horsing, which could actually
> > improve performance. (I reckon they also provides a means of getting
> > on board again from in the water)
> > Coming over bars is a good test for robustness maneuverability and
> > handling.
> > Wish you well in the legal wrangles,and I am sure that Bain would be
> > happy for Aroha to go to a good home,
> > Robert--
> >
> >
> > In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Robert
> > >
> > > I did get out onto him/her on the last day before Bain so kindly took me
> > > to the airport, but unfortunately it was pelting down like mad. We rowed
> > > out to the boat, moored in a river near Bain's house and had a good look
> > > around but never got off the mooring. We had neither the time nor the
> > > breeze to prove much.
> > >
> > > The boat appears to be very well built and very much what I do want.
> > > Enough room for one or two people for extended coastal cruising and the
> > > pop-up canopy over the upper cockpit was a cozy place for us to shelter
> > > in the rain and talk about, as well as look at, the boat.
> > >
> > > My only real reservation about the design is the ongoing question of
> > > rudder attachments. Aroha's appear solid but the lower brackets
> > > certainly will certainly be caught in almost anything more than a flat
> > > sea. I really don't know whether that would make much difference to
> > > overall performance, though.
> > >
> > > I did see Aroha come across the bar into the river a couple of days
> > > earlier and it was an impressive sight.
> > >
> > > I am still working on the legal and financial issues so I am hoping that
> > > I will be able to make a reasonable offer fairly soon. In the meantime,
> > > I do wish Bain good luck and if I miss out, so be it. If everything
> > > works well, perhaps I'll be able to get across for another look and a
> > > ride later this year.
> > >
> > > Enjoy
> > >
> > > Jim Baltaxe
> > >
> > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au]
> >
> > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2008 11:58 p.m.
> > > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -G'day Jim,
> > > Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not a nice situation but there can
> > > be an afterlife
> > > Did you get a chance to sail on Aroha?
> > > Robert
> > >
> > > -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Jim Baltaxe"
> > > <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Robert &al
> > > >
> > > > I'm in exactly the same position which is why I've had my head down
> > > for
> > > > a while, since Derek's workshop and my visit with Bain. I'm still
> > > trying
> > > > to work out the "disengagement" (what else do you call a "divorce"
> > > from
> > > > a legally recognised, long-term, relationship?) so that perhaps I can
> > > > get the money together. Sorry Bain but I am trying, really hard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy
> > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > 209 Derwent Street
> > > > Island Bay, Wellington
> > > > NEW ZEALAND
> > > > +64 (04) 938 6018
> > > > 027 563 5018
> > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> ]
> > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2007 4:16 p.m.
> > > > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -waiting with bated breath for the next development of the Harry. Love
> > > > to see the promised photos of Sidecar and Solitarry I am still keen to
> > > > get a Harry but health and wealth defy me. The concept still makes the
> > > > most sense to me and the boats out there look pretty good. If I had
> > > > the cash I'd probably just buy Bain's Aroha and get sailing.
> > > > Meanwhile I'm investigating doing a KSS system using polyprop and
> > > > epoxy with an end bulkhead with foam ends.
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > > -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "vertiges59" <vertiges59@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Nobody more in this group ?????
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008
> 5:39 PM
>
>
>
>

---

Support the World Aids Awareness campaign this month with Yahoo! for Good

---

Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try it now.

Just some funny ones threading the haliasrd down the mast using the
bridge walkway.

Doug

Just some funny ones threading the haliasrd down the mast using the
bridge walkway.

Doug

Hi,

 

Sailing's been pretty good lately, fast and fun, and mostly dry.

I get to the limit of my nerves or of the boat fairly easily now - the ww hull has definitely been up out of the water, immediately at which time I dumped sheet.

The other thing that is limiting is the bow burying into the water. It could probably take more submersion, but I get too scared and ease off. The hull is lifting  up a bit usually at about the time that the bow is digging in a lot, so all in all I just ease sheets and speed drops back to like 9-10 knots. The top speed has been around 13-14 knots. Using GPS lent to me.

FAirly satisfied with that I guess.

Sail are could stay the same and a longer lw hull would increase speed a lot. My overall beam is very narrow only 3.?m and is about right for current dimensions of rest of boat.

Extra metre beam would combine with a longer lw hull and make more speed possible.

 

Maybe harrygami size lw hull, 4.5m overall beam, and two schooner masts with just a bit more area than mine with flat heads/fat heads sail tops.?

 

Good enough as is though. Tough enough to anchor (pulling up), lots of windage, especially when sails hoisted, woudn't like any more work than already have.

 

Doug

Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com> wrote:

G'day,

I have put some photos in the Files section (not sure why I didn't put
them in Photos). They are not pretty and it is definitely time to
paint all the changes and mistakes, but they work. Any questions, let
me know.

regards,

Rob

On Jan 21, 2008 5:55 PM, Jim Baltaxe <jim.baltaxe@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Mark &al
>
> Any chance of some photos or drawings of the beam mounted rudders?
>
>
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
>
> They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> ________________________________
> From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au] On
> Behalf Of Mark Stephens
> Sent: Tuesday, 15 January 2008 11:20 p.m.
> To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
>
>
>
>
>
> The biggest negative about the hull hung rudders, well the mk 2 version, is
> they would be difficult to replace once the shear pins broke. At the moment
> they are designed to 'break away' in the event of a collision. You would
> then have to retrieve them from the end of the attachment line and refit
> them with new shear pins. This may seem like a big disadvantage but it will
> only happen in a catastrophic event which would render any catamaran with a
> stuck and broken daggerboard at best and a split hull and bent rudder shaft
> at worst.
>
> We are not in the business of selling boats using boatshows and brochures.
> We are enthusiasts trying to promote the proa as a viable alternative to
> people who understand that Harryproas don't have the decades of development
> other multis have. Some things, rudders in particular, will go through many
> iterations before the perfect solution is reached and we keep all of our
> developments transparent. Maybe not commercially sensible but that's not
> what we are about. I'm sure all those subscribed to this group are here
> because of this.
>
> Hopefully the beam mounted rudders will prove to be the best option. Rob has
> experimented with them and they seem to be working well. The biggest concern
> was the distance from the boats centre but this has proven OK on
> Elementarry. Blind Date will be trying them as will Solitarry. As they will
> kick up in both directions and won't be as draggy let's hope they prove
> successful.
>
> Mark
>
> Rob Denney wrote:
>
>
>
> G'day,
>
> The side of hull mounted rudders work well, as did the in hull dagger
> rudders before them and the in hull spade rudders before them. They
> are far better than the rudders and daggerboards in most multihulls.
> However, none were the perfect solution and this is what we are
> looking for. The beam mounted rudders are another (quite large) step
> in this direction and have been tested by me on my Elementarry, and
> now on my solo boat. They will then be included in the plans.
> Anyone who is now at the rudder stage of their build should discuss
> the options before they proceed.
>
> Because I believe it is in everyone's interest if I am upfront about
> what we are doing and give details of experiments that have been tried
> (rail mounted riudders etc) there is a lot of discussion. These are
> ideas, not "designs" and they may or may not end up on the plans.
>
> Rudders and daggerboards/keels are the "Achilles heel" of almost all
> boats. We are trying to reduce the potential for damage, reduce the
> cost and improve the performance rather than taking the stance of the
> rest of the industry that there is nothing that can be done about it
> and that it is normal for daggerboards to break and hulls to split
> when they collide with something and that boats should be confined to
> deep water because of the depth of their rudders.
>
> The side of hull rudders in dagger cases do hit a fair bit of water
> as can be seen in the Rare Bird video. They may or may not be
> draggier than the conventional slot for daggerboards. They are not
> likely to cause any handling problems and the spray they kick up is
> not likely to reach the cockpit. They do have the advantage that in a
> collision, they kick up and in storms, shallow water and on the
> mooring, they can be lifted. Their biggest advantage is that in the
> event of damage, there are no holes below the waterline.
>
> The beam mounted rudders keep all these advantages and solve the spray
> problem. They are also considerably easier to build.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Jan 15, 2008 1:54 PM, Jim Baltaxe <jim.baltaxe@vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Robert
> >
> > If what you say about the rudders is true then why is there, or has there
> > been, so much worrying about the design of the rudders? Rob and others
> have
> > been concerned about the lower brackets being caught by waves, designs
> have
> > been posted for rudders hung from the akas and there was even a proposal
> to
> > hang rudders from stub akas. I'm not even talking about hanging a single
> > rudder/daggerboard from a track on the lee hull and hauling it end to end
> > during a shunt.
> >
> > I am aware that there are other things than simple strength or turning
> > moment involved in rudder design but it seems to be received knowledge
> that
> > rudders are the "Achilles heel" of proas.
> >
> >
> >
> > Enjoy
> >
> > Jim Baltaxe
> >
> > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > ________________________________
> > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au]
> On
> > Behalf Of Robert
> > Sent: Monday, 14 January 2008 4:01 p.m.
> >
> > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Hi Jim,
> > I was certainly impressed with the build when I saw 'Aroha' in the
> > earlier stages- I even helped with a bit of the fairing on one of the
> > rudders so it must be good! I cant see any problems with the rudders
> > as far as slowing the boat down and Rare Bird was a good pilot study
> > for the robustness. The brackets are strong enough to take the sailing
> > loads so the bit of slapping won't worry them. There is not much
> > increase in wetted area if the brackets hit a wave and it would damp
> > even further the minimal chance of hobby horsing, which could actually
> > improve performance. (I reckon they also provides a means of getting
> > on board again from in the water)
> > Coming over bars is a good test for robustness maneuverability and
> > handling.
> > Wish you well in the legal wrangles,and I am sure that Bain would be
> > happy for Aroha to go to a good home,
> > Robert--
> >
> >
> > In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Robert
> > >
> > > I did get out onto him/her on the last day before Bain so kindly took me
> > > to the airport, but unfortunately it was pelting down like mad. We rowed
> > > out to the boat, moored in a river near Bain's house and had a good look
> > > around but never got off the mooring. We had neither the time nor the
> > > breeze to prove much.
> > >
> > > The boat appears to be very well built and very much what I do want.
> > > Enough room for one or two people for extended coastal cruising and the
> > > pop-up canopy over the upper cockpit was a cozy place for us to shelter
> > > in the rain and talk about, as well as look at, the boat.
> > >
> > > My only real reservation about the design is the ongoing question of
> > > rudder attachments. Aroha's appear solid but the lower brackets
> > > certainly will certainly be caught in almost anything more than a flat
> > > sea. I really don't know whether that would make much difference to
> > > overall performance, though.
> > >
> > > I did see Aroha come across the bar into the river a couple of days
> > > earlier and it was an impressive sight.
> > >
> > > I am still working on the legal and financial issues so I am hoping that
> > > I will be able to make a reasonable offer fairly soon. In the meantime,
> > > I do wish Bain good luck and if I miss out, so be it. If everything
> > > works well, perhaps I'll be able to get across for another look and a
> > > ride later this year.
> > >
> > > Enjoy
> > >
> > > Jim Baltaxe
> > >
> > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au]
> >
> > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2008 11:58 p.m.
> > > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -G'day Jim,
> > > Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Not a nice situation but there can
> > > be an afterlife
> > > Did you get a chance to sail on Aroha?
> > > Robert
> > >
> > > -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Jim Baltaxe"
> > > <jim.baltaxe@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Robert &al
> > > >
> > > > I'm in exactly the same position which is why I've had my head down
> > > for
> > > > a while, since Derek's workshop and my visit with Bain. I'm still
> > > trying
> > > > to work out the "disengagement" (what else do you call a "divorce"
> > > from
> > > > a legally recognised, long-term, relationship?) so that perhaps I can
> > > > get the money together. Sorry Bain but I am trying, really hard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Enjoy
> > > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > > 209 Derwent Street
> > > > Island Bay, Wellington
> > > > NEW ZEALAND
> > > > +64 (04) 938 6018
> > > > 027 563 5018
> > > > They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > From: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > [mailto:harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> ]
> > > > On Behalf Of Robert
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2007 4:16 p.m.
> > > > To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Anyone there ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -waiting with bated breath for the next development of the Harry. Love
> > > > to see the promised photos of Sidecar and Solitarry I am still keen to
> > > > get a Harry but health and wealth defy me. The concept still makes the
> > > > most sense to me and the boats out there look pretty good. If I had
> > > > the cash I'd probably just buy Bain's Aroha and get sailing.
> > > > Meanwhile I'm investigating doing a KSS system using polyprop and
> > > > epoxy with an end bulkhead with foam ends.
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > > -- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
> >
> > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > > <mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "vertiges59" <vertiges59@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Nobody more in this group ?????
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ________________________________
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1224 - Release Date: 14/01/2008
> 5:39 PM
>
>
>
>

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