Hi Rob,

Reports on my three outings so far with photos and some video here:

http://www.crew.net.nz/newForum/blog.php/?author=27

Interesting drawings, but I'm still sold on Visionarry (I'm assuming
that can be adapted for KSS?).
I'm suffering terribly , I want to start building it yesterday, but
the economy here is going down the gurgler almost as fast as in the
US. My website is going really well , but my wife has two retail shops
(women's dresses) and is feeling the pinch.
In the meantime I've promised younger daughter I'll do a strip plank
kayak for her this winter, know anything about them?
Sailing the proa is a revelation. Yes it's fast (not as fast as the
old A Class cat), but utterly effortless, you'll see in one of the
photos I'm lying on the tramp with the tiller in my toes, I' have done
that at 15kn. And I'll never go back to a stayed mast.
I readily accept that your boats are safer, faster, more comfortable
and hopefully cheaper than anything else available.
Cheers
David


--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Thanks for the rendering offer, I will send you the files.
>
> Wing mast bearings on the floor and deck.  Lighter,  easier to build
> and you are able to access the bearings.  The rig is much stiffer.
> Needs a collar to keep the water out, but this is no big deal.  Only
> time I would use a stub mast is if it was going on a flat deck or if
> overall length was an issue for trailering, as yours might be.
>
> Looking forward to see what Yana comes up with!      Yana is Youri and
> Myriam's (Wangka boats, builders of the glitziest harryproa ever, a
> super light, all bells and whistles elementarry) daughter, studying
> web design and kindly having a look at what can be improved on the web
> page.  I have a web lesson on Friday, so the update is not far away.
>
> Jim and Oceanplodder, renderings sent, but i would like to wait until
> we get the real thing from Youri, and i write some decent blurb before
> sending it to any web or paper publications. Op, where is the video of
> your proa sailing?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Myriam & Youri <youri@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> >  we can take care of renderings ...
> >
> >  Do you prefer wingmast/stubmast bearings on the foot/deck level or
> >  a fixed stubmast with a wingmast rotating about it ...
> >
> >  Yana is working on the webpages ... you will hear soon about it
> >
> >  Best regards,
> >
> >  Myriam & Youri
> >
> >
> >
> >  On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 11:12 +0800, Rob Denney wrote:
> >  > G'day,
> >  >
> >  > The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
> >  > than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up
on the
> >  > bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
> >  > headroom. There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
> >  > The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look
from
> >  > the windward side.
> >  >
> >  > The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
> >  > walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull. The roof is a
> >  > foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the
windward end
> >  > so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull. At anchor,
> >  > roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.
> >  >
> >  > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper
> >  > <gardner@...> wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some
sketches or
> >  > > renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the
windage
> >  > down
> >  > > and still have visibility from the help to windward.
> >  > >
> >  > > - Gardner
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker
> >  > <clairebarker5@...>
> >  > > wrote:
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
> >  > <gardner@>
> >  > > > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> >  > > > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is
roughly
> >  > 26
> >  > > > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and
> >  > toilet
> >  > > > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as
possible so as
> >  > to
> >  > > > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means
heaps of
> >  > > > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a
30ft
> >  > cat
> >  > > > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat
(maybe
> >  > > > slight exageration).
> >  > > > cheers Tim
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all
familiar
> >  > with
> >  > > > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open
> >  > bridgedeck
> >  > > > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason
> >  > you go
> >  > > > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks.
Instead of an
> >  > > > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
> >  > from the
> >  > > > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most
of the
> >  > time.
> >  > > > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept
down
> >  > because
> >  > > > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
> >  > them for
> >  > > > > rain or heavy seas.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and
click on
> >  > > > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
> >  > trying to
> >  > > > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
> >  > bridgedeck
> >  > > > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the
windage,
> >  > but I
> >  > > > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > - Gardner
> >  > > > >
> >  > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker"
> >  > <clairebarker5@>
> >  > > > > wrote:
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
> >  > <gardner@>
> >  > > > wrote:
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > Hi Gardener
> >  > > > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
> >  > liveaboard.For us
> >  > > > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
> >  > space for
> >  > > > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can
> >  > enclose or
> >  > > > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality
of the
> >  > space
> >  > > > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
> >  > reference to the
> >  > > > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was
> >  > for a
> >  > > > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living
space,
> >  > no need
> >  > > > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist
> >  > the
> >  > > > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room
below.
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
> >  > enough but
> >  > > > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
> >  > tempted to )
> >  > > > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
> >  > down hill
> >  > > > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple
and on
> >  > one
> >  > > > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding
piping/cabling
> >  > no doors
> >  > > > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a
> >  > quicker
> >  > > > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money
(probably not
> >  > that
> >  > > > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the
> >  > cost of
> >  > > > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was
> >  > about
> >  > > > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon
area
> >  > and the
> >  > > > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade
became
> >  > one
> >  > > > > > large living area.
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a
couple
> >  > of
> >  > > > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
> >  > people and
> >  > > > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
> >  > continually
> >  > > > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > > > Cheers Tim
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > Hi,
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
> >  > message, you
> >  > > > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a
family of
> >  > 4
> >  > > > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
> >  > mind. The
> >  > > > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
> >  > payload
> >  > > > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need,
although
> >  > I have
> >  > > > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> >  > > > fridge/freezer. If
> >  > > > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be
> >  > great. We
> >  > > > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat
with a
> >  > 2000lb
> >  > > > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be
ok with
> >  > us.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the
> >  > larger
> >  > > > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with
(hopefully) many
> >  > guests,
> >  > > > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand
and the
> >  > > > schooner
> >  > > > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > Back to general questions:
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be
> >  > performed
> >  > > > when
> >  > > > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary,
but in a
> >  > larger
> >  > > > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the
> >  > rudders
> >  > > > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk
> >  > around
> >  > > > to the
> >  > > > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> >  > > > motorsailing? I
> >  > > > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the
> >  > Intracoastal
> >  > > > on the
> >  > > > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
> >  > interspersed
> >  > > > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have
> >  > always
> >  > > > liked to
> >  > > > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the
mast. With
> >  > the
> >  > > > mast
> >  > > > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines
just wind
> >  > up
> >  > > > around
> >  > > > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
> >  > direction you
> >  > > > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to
answer
> >  > > > questions.
> >  > > > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your
designs I
> >  > never
> >  > > > took
> >  > > > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > - Gardner
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> >  > <harryproa@>
> >  > > > wrote:
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > G'day,
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper
<gardner@>
> >  > wrote:
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
> >  > background
> >  > > > > > to put
> >  > > > > > > > > my questions into context.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > snip
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry
seems
> >  > like
> >  > > > > it has
> >  > > > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising
couple/liveaboard
> >  > > > > (although
> >  > > > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are
looking
> >  > for a
> >  > > > > > coastal
> >  > > > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and
> >  > the
> >  > > > > > caribbean.
> >  > > > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on
> >  > Visionarry.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
> >  > Does it
> >  > > > > > include
> >  > > > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
> >  > about the
> >  > > > > > sails?
> >  > > > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for
a sail
> >  > except
> >  > > > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast
sails, boom
> >  > > > > rudders etc.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like.
Do you
> >  > have
> >  > > > > > any 2D
> >  > > > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I
can look
> >  > at? We
> >  > > > > > > really
> >  > > > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat,
and I
> >  > am
> >  > > > > > concerned
> >  > > > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel
without
> >  > > > > > dropping the
> >  > > > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
> >  > simple model
> >  > > > > > > out of
> >  > > > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
> >  > job. The
> >  > > > > table
> >  > > > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will
forward the
> >  > > > > dimensions.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was
almost a
> >  > deal
> >  > > > > > breaker
> >  > > > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add
> >  > one,
> >  > > > but he
> >  > > > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it
was one
> >  > of the
> >  > > > > > best
> >  > > > > > > > > additions.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > No problem.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets
along the
> >  > hull
> >  > > > > in the
> >  > > > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or
even
> >  > an
> >  > > > extended
> >  > > > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the
latter, but
> >  > it
> >  > > > does
> >  > > > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living
aboard.
> >  > > > This is a
> >  > > > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
> >  > your wife!
> >  > > > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but
this is
> >  > not
> >  > > > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to
increase
> >  > the
> >  > > > > storage
> >  > > > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all
> >  > the
> >  > > > comforts
> >  > > > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a
better
> >  > bet..
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy
between
> >  > a proa
> >  > > > > > and a
> >  > > > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> >  > > > > designed. Are
> >  > > > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the
> >  > relative
> >  > > > > build
> >  > > > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter?
> >  > Double?
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
> >  > fit out.
> >  > > > > The
> >  > > > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper
(although
> >  > there are
> >  > > > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour
> >  > location.
> >  > > > > The fit
> >  > > > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and
quicker.
> >  > The
> >  > > > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the
ones
> >  > in the ww
> >  > > > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
> >  > more floor
> >  > > > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same
level
> >  > as the
> >  > > > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other
groups.
> >  > If
> >  > > > > you are
> >  > > > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know.
They are
> >  > not of
> >  > > > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion
> >  > purposes
> >  > > > only,
> >  > > > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They
will
> >  > be
> >  > > > on the
> >  > > > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to
check out
> >  > the
> >  > > > > > boat in
> >  > > > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
> >  > Sept as to
> >  > > > > > > how it
> >  > > > > > > > > went.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have
asked
> >  > all your
> >  > > > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip
him off
> >  > and
> >  > > > sends
> >  > > > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
> >  > back here.
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a
schooner rig
> >  > so a
> >  > > > > > > little lower.
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > regards,
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > Rob
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> >  > <harryproa@>
> >  > > > > > wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > G'day,
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions,
please
> >  > keep
> >  > > > > them
> >  > > > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
> >  > <gardner@>
> >  > > > > > wrote:
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything
I can
> >  > find
> >  > > > > on the
> >  > > > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but
there is
> >  > very
> >  > > > > > > little hard
> >  > > > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best
> >  > place to
> >  > > > > start.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> >  > > > although it
> >  > > > > > > might be
> >  > > > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with
> >  > some
> >  > > > > general
> >  > > > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
> >  > would be
> >  > > > > > > too long
> >  > > > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How
> >  > susceptible is
> >  > > > > > that to
> >  > > > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
> >  > subject to
> >  > > > > > > alot of sea
> >  > > > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
> >  > maintenance
> >  > > > > > > required?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer
shells and
> >  > > > > > > epoxy/graphite
> >  > > > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as
there is a
> >  > boot
> >  > > > > > around
> >  > > > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or
grit)
> >  > did
> >  > > > get in
> >  > > > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
> >  > plastic so no
> >  > > > > > harm
> >  > > > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas
seem to
> >  > > > have any
> >  > > > > > > safety
> >  > > > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when
you need
> >  > to reef
> >  > > > > > > in heavy
> >  > > > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the
bridge
> >  > deck.
> >  > > > > There
> >  > > > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck
at all.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast
when you
> >  > reef.
> >  > > > > Is it
> >  > > > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't
reach
> >  > it
> >  > > > then.
> >  > > > > > > Or are
> >  > > > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind,
like a
> >  > > > > > "normal" cat?
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
> >  > behind the
> >  > > > > > > sail and
> >  > > > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
> >  > making the
> >  > > > > > boat
> >  > > > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
> >  > handling a
> >  > > > > > little
> >  > > > > > > > > more?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
> >  > release the
> >  > > > > > sheet.
> >  > > > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being
careful
> >  > not
> >  > > > to get
> >  > > > > > > hit by
> >  > > > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is
locked
> >  > > > > > > athwartships,
> >  > > > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail
act as
> >  > a
> >  > > > > > > weathervane,
> >  > > > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the
rig can
> >  > be
> >  > > > > > > sheeted fore
> >  > > > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
> >  > capsizing the
> >  > > > > > > wrong way
> >  > > > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask
> >  > more
> >  > > > > > questions.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
> >  > coast of
> >  > > > > > the US
> >  > > > > > > > > that
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we
built
> >  > > > > > > professionally.
> >  > > > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry
boat
> >  > for the
> >  > > > > > boats
> >  > > > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk
> >  > through
> >  > > > > > windward
> >  > > > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is
> >  > that
> >  > > > it has
> >  > > > > > > sailed
> >  > > > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is
all I
> >  > > > have. The
> >  > > > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not
meet our
> >  > price
> >  > > > > > > estimate,
> >  > > > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish
> >  > the
> >  > > > > painting
> >  > > > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is
> >  > George
> >  > > > > Marks. He
> >  > > > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> >  > > > > grateful for
> >  > > > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the
> >  > boat.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast,
but also
> >  > that
> >  > > > > it is
> >  > > > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast
> >  > still
> >  > > > > > rotate 360
> >  > > > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
> >  > far the
> >  > > > > > > mast can
> >  > > > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in
the same
> >  > > > direction
> >  > > > > > > > > endlessly?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the
prototypes. They
> >  > > > are not
> >  > > > > > > worth
> >  > > > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on
racers
> >  > eiither.
> >  > > > > > > Amongst
> >  > > > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
> >  > degrees. None
> >  > > > > > of the
> >  > > > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some
sort of
> >  > > > downwind
> >  > > > > > > sail?
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the
> >  > front
> >  > > > of the
> >  > > > > > > boom
> >  > > > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and
sheet it to
> >  > > > the back
> >  > > > > > > end of
> >  > > > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large
genoa type
> >  > sail is
> >  > > > > > best
> >  > > > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
> >  > hauled, even
> >  > > > > > > when the
> >  > > > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
> >  > athwartships.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing
speed
> >  > of
> >  > > > > > Blind Date
> >  > > > > > > > > (the
> >  > > > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent
sailing).
> >  > Has a
> >  > > > > polar
> >  > > > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal
readings
> >  > of
> >  > > > speed
> >  > > > > > > under
> >  > > > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind
speeds
> >  > > > and sea
> >  > > > > > > states?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> >  > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA
where Rare
> >  > Bird
> >  > > > > > > reaches at
> >  > > > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The
sails are
> >  > not
> >  > > > right
> >  > > > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as
you can
> >  > > > see, no
> >  > > > > > > one is
> >  > > > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
> >  > considerably
> >  > > > > > > lighter,
> >  > > > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes
back in
> >  > the
> >  > > > water
> >  > > > > > > in a
> >  > > > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be
forthcoming,
> >  > I
> >  > > > hope.
> >  > > > > > > There
> >  > > > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> >  > > > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I
appreciate
> >  > that
> >  > > > > > this is
> >  > > > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all
we have
> >  > at the
> >  > > > > > > moment.
> >  > > > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough)
prototypes the
> >  > harder
> >  > > > > > > it blows
> >  > > > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
> >  > perform,
> >  > > > > > > compared
> >  > > > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> >  > > > hulls, the
> >  > > > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the
harryproa
> >  > > > platform.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
> >  > Harryproa)
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull
as the
> >  > hull
> >  > > > > > > lifts to
> >  > > > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor
less
> >  > likely,
> >  > > > > > except
> >  > > > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the
> >  > time/talent to
> >  > > > > > build a
> >  > > > > > > > > boat.
> >  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
> >  > Visionarry ($80K
> >  > > > > > > AU) and
> >  > > > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate
> >  > into a
> >  > > > > > budgetary
> >  > > > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this
> >  > boat?
> >  > > > > > > Assuming I am
> >  > > > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does
excellent
> >  > work,
> >  > > > > > > can I jst
> >  > > > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU
and get
> >  > a
> >  > > > number?
> >  > > > > > > What
> >  > > > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate.
Moderate by
> >  > > > Australian
> >  > > > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards
and very
> >  > > > > expensive
> >  > > > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
> >  > currently
> >  > > > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South
Africa,
> >  > the
> >  > > > > > Caribbean
> >  > > > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their
> >  > labour
> >  > > > > > rates are
> >  > > > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
> >  > quality
> >  > > > > > > issues to
> >  > > > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first
build
> >  > to
> >  > > > > > ensure high
> >  > > > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be
far fewer
> >  > > > > hours and
> >  > > > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> >  > > > interior will
> >  > > > > > > be far
> >  > > > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> >  > > > replies to
> >  > > > > > > this, I
> >  > > > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > regards,
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> >  > > > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > > >
> >  > > > > > >
> >  > > > > >
> >  > > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > > >
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >
>

G'day,

Thanks for the rendering offer, I will send you the files.

Wing mast bearings on the floor and deck.  Lighter,  easier to build
and you are able to access the bearings.  The rig is much stiffer.
Needs a collar to keep the water out, but this is no big deal.  Only
time I would use a stub mast is if it was going on a flat deck or if
overall length was an issue for trailering, as yours might be.

Looking forward to see what Yana comes up with!      Yana is Youri and
Myriam's (Wangka boats, builders of the glitziest harryproa ever, a
super light, all bells and whistles elementarry) daughter, studying
web design and kindly having a look at what can be improved on the web
page.  I have a web lesson on Friday, so the update is not far away.

Jim and Oceanplodder, renderings sent, but i would like to wait until
we get the real thing from Youri, and i write some decent blurb before
sending it to any web or paper publications. Op, where is the video of
your proa sailing?

Regards,

Rob

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:57 PM, Myriam & Youri <youri@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rob,
>
>  we can take care of renderings ...
>
>  Do you prefer wingmast/stubmast bearings on the foot/deck level or
>  a fixed stubmast with a wingmast rotating about it ...
>
>  Yana is working on the webpages ... you will hear soon about it
>
>  Best regards,
>
>  Myriam & Youri
>
>
>
>  On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 11:12 +0800, Rob Denney wrote:
>  > G'day,
>  >
>  > The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
>  > than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up on the
>  > bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
>  > headroom. There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
>  > The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look from
>  > the windward side.
>  >
>  > The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
>  > walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull. The roof is a
>  > foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the windward end
>  > so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull. At anchor,
>  > roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.
>  >
>  > On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper
>  > <gardner@...> wrote:
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some sketches or
>  > > renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the windage
>  > down
>  > > and still have visibility from the help to windward.
>  > >
>  > > - Gardner
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker
>  > <clairebarker5@...>
>  > > wrote:
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
>  > <gardner@...>
>  > > > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
>  > > > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly
>  > 26
>  > > > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and
>  > toilet
>  > > > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as
>  > to
>  > > > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means heaps of
>  > > > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft
>  > cat
>  > > > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
>  > > > slight exageration).
>  > > > cheers Tim
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar
>  > with
>  > > > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open
>  > bridgedeck
>  > > > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason
>  > you go
>  > > > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
>  > > > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
>  > from the
>  > > > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the
>  > time.
>  > > > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down
>  > because
>  > > > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
>  > them for
>  > > > > rain or heavy seas.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
>  > > > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
>  > trying to
>  > > > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
>  > bridgedeck
>  > > > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage,
>  > but I
>  > > > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > - Gardner
>  > > > >
>  > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker"
>  > <clairebarker5@>
>  > > > > wrote:
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
>  > <gardner@>
>  > > > wrote:
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Hi Gardener
>  > > > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
>  > liveaboard.For us
>  > > > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
>  > space for
>  > > > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can
>  > enclose or
>  > > > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the
>  > space
>  > > > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
>  > reference to the
>  > > > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was
>  > for a
>  > > > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space,
>  > no need
>  > > > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist
>  > the
>  > > > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
>  > enough but
>  > > > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
>  > tempted to )
>  > > > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
>  > down hill
>  > > > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on
>  > one
>  > > > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling
>  > no doors
>  > > > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a
>  > quicker
>  > > > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not
>  > that
>  > > > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the
>  > cost of
>  > > > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was
>  > about
>  > > > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area
>  > and the
>  > > > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became
>  > one
>  > > > > > large living area.
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple
>  > of
>  > > > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
>  > people and
>  > > > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
>  > continually
>  > > > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
>  > > > > >
>  > > > > > Cheers Tim
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > Hi,
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
>  > message, you
>  > > > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of
>  > 4
>  > > > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
>  > mind. The
>  > > > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
>  > payload
>  > > > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although
>  > I have
>  > > > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
>  > > > fridge/freezer. If
>  > > > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be
>  > great. We
>  > > > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a
>  > 2000lb
>  > > > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with
>  > us.
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the
>  > larger
>  > > > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many
>  > guests,
>  > > > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
>  > > > schooner
>  > > > > > > rig concerns me for that.
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > Back to general questions:
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be
>  > performed
>  > > > when
>  > > > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a
>  > larger
>  > > > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the
>  > rudders
>  > > > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk
>  > around
>  > > > to the
>  > > > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
>  > > > motorsailing? I
>  > > > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the
>  > Intracoastal
>  > > > on the
>  > > > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
>  > interspersed
>  > > > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have
>  > always
>  > > > liked to
>  > > > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With
>  > the
>  > > > mast
>  > > > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind
>  > up
>  > > > around
>  > > > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
>  > direction you
>  > > > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
>  > > > questions.
>  > > > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I
>  > never
>  > > > took
>  > > > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > - Gardner
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
>  > <harryproa@>
>  > > > wrote:
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > G'day,
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
>  > wrote:
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
>  > background
>  > > > > > to put
>  > > > > > > > > my questions into context.
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > snip
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems
>  > like
>  > > > > it has
>  > > > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
>  > > > > (although
>  > > > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking
>  > for a
>  > > > > > coastal
>  > > > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and
>  > the
>  > > > > > caribbean.
>  > > > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on
>  > Visionarry.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
>  > Does it
>  > > > > > include
>  > > > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
>  > about the
>  > > > > > sails?
>  > > > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail
>  > except
>  > > > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
>  > > > > rudders etc.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you
>  > have
>  > > > > > any 2D
>  > > > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look
>  > at? We
>  > > > > > > really
>  > > > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I
>  > am
>  > > > > > concerned
>  > > > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
>  > > > > > dropping the
>  > > > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
>  > simple model
>  > > > > > > out of
>  > > > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
>  > job. The
>  > > > > table
>  > > > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the
>  > > > > dimensions.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a
>  > deal
>  > > > > > breaker
>  > > > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add
>  > one,
>  > > > but he
>  > > > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one
>  > of the
>  > > > > > best
>  > > > > > > > > additions.
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > No problem.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the
>  > hull
>  > > > > in the
>  > > > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even
>  > an
>  > > > extended
>  > > > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but
>  > it
>  > > > does
>  > > > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
>  > > > This is a
>  > > > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
>  > your wife!
>  > > > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is
>  > not
>  > > > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase
>  > the
>  > > > > storage
>  > > > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all
>  > the
>  > > > comforts
>  > > > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better
>  > bet..
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between
>  > a proa
>  > > > > > and a
>  > > > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
>  > > > > designed. Are
>  > > > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the
>  > relative
>  > > > > build
>  > > > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter?
>  > Double?
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
>  > fit out.
>  > > > > The
>  > > > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although
>  > there are
>  > > > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour
>  > location.
>  > > > > The fit
>  > > > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker.
>  > The
>  > > > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones
>  > in the ww
>  > > > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
>  > more floor
>  > > > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level
>  > as the
>  > > > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups.
>  > If
>  > > > > you are
>  > > > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are
>  > not of
>  > > > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion
>  > purposes
>  > > > only,
>  > > > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will
>  > be
>  > > > on the
>  > > > > > > > web page real soon now ........
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out
>  > the
>  > > > > > boat in
>  > > > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
>  > Sept as to
>  > > > > > > how it
>  > > > > > > > > went.
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked
>  > all your
>  > > > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off
>  > and
>  > > > sends
>  > > > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
>  > back here.
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig
>  > so a
>  > > > > > > little lower.
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > regards,
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > Rob
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
>  > <harryproa@>
>  > > > > > wrote:
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > G'day,
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please
>  > keep
>  > > > > them
>  > > > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
>  > <gardner@>
>  > > > > > wrote:
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > Hi,
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can
>  > find
>  > > > > on the
>  > > > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is
>  > very
>  > > > > > > little hard
>  > > > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best
>  > place to
>  > > > > start.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
>  > > > although it
>  > > > > > > might be
>  > > > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with
>  > some
>  > > > > general
>  > > > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
>  > would be
>  > > > > > > too long
>  > > > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How
>  > susceptible is
>  > > > > > that to
>  > > > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
>  > subject to
>  > > > > > > alot of sea
>  > > > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
>  > maintenance
>  > > > > > > required?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
>  > > > > > > epoxy/graphite
>  > > > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a
>  > boot
>  > > > > > around
>  > > > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit)
>  > did
>  > > > get in
>  > > > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
>  > plastic so no
>  > > > > > harm
>  > > > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
>  > > > have any
>  > > > > > > safety
>  > > > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need
>  > to reef
>  > > > > > > in heavy
>  > > > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge
>  > deck.
>  > > > > There
>  > > > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you
>  > reef.
>  > > > > Is it
>  > > > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach
>  > it
>  > > > then.
>  > > > > > > Or are
>  > > > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
>  > > > > > "normal" cat?
>  > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
>  > behind the
>  > > > > > > sail and
>  > > > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
>  > making the
>  > > > > > boat
>  > > > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
>  > handling a
>  > > > > > little
>  > > > > > > > > more?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
>  > release the
>  > > > > > sheet.
>  > > > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful
>  > not
>  > > > to get
>  > > > > > > hit by
>  > > > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
>  > > > > > > athwartships,
>  > > > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as
>  > a
>  > > > > > > weathervane,
>  > > > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can
>  > be
>  > > > > > > sheeted fore
>  > > > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
>  > capsizing the
>  > > > > > > wrong way
>  > > > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask
>  > more
>  > > > > > questions.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
>  > coast of
>  > > > > > the US
>  > > > > > > > > that
>  > > > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
>  > > > > > > professionally.
>  > > > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat
>  > for the
>  > > > > > boats
>  > > > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk
>  > through
>  > > > > > windward
>  > > > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is
>  > that
>  > > > it has
>  > > > > > > sailed
>  > > > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
>  > > > have. The
>  > > > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our
>  > price
>  > > > > > > estimate,
>  > > > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish
>  > the
>  > > > > painting
>  > > > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is
>  > George
>  > > > > Marks. He
>  > > > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
>  > > > > grateful for
>  > > > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the
>  > boat.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also
>  > that
>  > > > > it is
>  > > > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast
>  > still
>  > > > > > rotate 360
>  > > > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
>  > far the
>  > > > > > > mast can
>  > > > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
>  > > > direction
>  > > > > > > > > endlessly?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
>  > > > are not
>  > > > > > > worth
>  > > > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers
>  > eiither.
>  > > > > > > Amongst
>  > > > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
>  > degrees. None
>  > > > > > of the
>  > > > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
>  > > > downwind
>  > > > > > > sail?
>  > > > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the
>  > front
>  > > > of the
>  > > > > > > boom
>  > > > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
>  > > > the back
>  > > > > > > end of
>  > > > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type
>  > sail is
>  > > > > > best
>  > > > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
>  > hauled, even
>  > > > > > > when the
>  > > > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
>  > athwartships.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed
>  > of
>  > > > > > Blind Date
>  > > > > > > > > (the
>  > > > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing).
>  > Has a
>  > > > > polar
>  > > > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings
>  > of
>  > > > speed
>  > > > > > > under
>  > > > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
>  > > > and sea
>  > > > > > > states?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
>  > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare
>  > Bird
>  > > > > > > reaches at
>  > > > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are
>  > not
>  > > > right
>  > > > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
>  > > > see, no
>  > > > > > > one is
>  > > > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
>  > considerably
>  > > > > > > lighter,
>  > > > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in
>  > the
>  > > > water
>  > > > > > > in a
>  > > > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming,
>  > I
>  > > > hope.
>  > > > > > > There
>  > > > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
>  > > > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate
>  > that
>  > > > > > this is
>  > > > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have
>  > at the
>  > > > > > > moment.
>  > > > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the
>  > harder
>  > > > > > > it blows
>  > > > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
>  > perform,
>  > > > > > > compared
>  > > > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
>  > > > hulls, the
>  > > > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
>  > > > platform.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
>  > Harryproa)
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the
>  > hull
>  > > > > > > lifts to
>  > > > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less
>  > likely,
>  > > > > > except
>  > > > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the
>  > time/talent to
>  > > > > > build a
>  > > > > > > > > boat.
>  > > > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
>  > Visionarry ($80K
>  > > > > > > AU) and
>  > > > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate
>  > into a
>  > > > > > budgetary
>  > > > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this
>  > boat?
>  > > > > > > Assuming I am
>  > > > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent
>  > work,
>  > > > > > > can I jst
>  > > > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get
>  > a
>  > > > number?
>  > > > > > > What
>  > > > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
>  > > > Australian
>  > > > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
>  > > > > expensive
>  > > > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
>  > currently
>  > > > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa,
>  > the
>  > > > > > Caribbean
>  > > > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their
>  > labour
>  > > > > > rates are
>  > > > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
>  > quality
>  > > > > > > issues to
>  > > > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build
>  > to
>  > > > > > ensure high
>  > > > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
>  > > > > hours and
>  > > > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
>  > > > interior will
>  > > > > > > be far
>  > > > > > > > > > quicker to install.
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
>  > > > replies to
>  > > > > > > this, I
>  > > > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > regards,
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > Rob Denney
>  > > > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > > - Gardner
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > > >
>  > > > > > >
>  > > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>

Rob, could you please send those sketches to editor@... also?
Thanks


--- In harryproa@..., "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Rob
>
> Please....
>
> Enjoy
> Jim Baltaxe
>
> They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>  From: harryproa@...
[mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Rob Denney
>  Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2008 3:25 a.m.
>  To: harryproa@...
>  Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Tons of questions
>
>
>
>  G'day,
>
>  On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...
<mailto:gardner%40networknow.org> > wrote:
>
>  > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
>  > my questions into context.
>
>  snip
>  >
>  > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
>  > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
>  > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
>  > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
>  > So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
>  >
>  > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
>  > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
>  > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
>
>  Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
>  safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
>  >
>  > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
>  > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
really
>  > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
>  > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
>  > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
out of
>  > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
>
>  The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job. The table
>  does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the dimensions.
>  >
>  > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
>  > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
>  > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
>  > additions.
>
>  No problem.
>  >
>  > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
>  > galley, where do you put everything?
>
>  Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
>  cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
>  not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard. This is a
>  good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
>  There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
>  readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the storage
>  space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
>  of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
>  >
>  > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
>  > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
>  > sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
>  > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
>
>  It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out. The
>  build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
>  more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location. The fit
>  out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
>  cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
>  hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
>  space, better light and ventilation and at the same level as the
>  bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
>  >
>  > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
>  > willing to, my email is gardner@...
<mailto:gardner%40networknow.org> .
>
>  Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are not of
>  particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
>  but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be on the
>  web page real soon now ........
>  >
>  > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
>  > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
how it
>  > went.
>
>  Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
>  questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
>  you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
>  >
>  > - What is the mast height off the water?
>
>  18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
little lower.
>
>  regards,
>
>  Rob
>  >
>  > --- In harryproa@...
<mailto:harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au> , "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > G'day,
>  > >
>  > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
>  > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
>  > >
>  > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
>  > >
>  > > > Hi,
>  > > >
>  > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
>  > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
little hard
>  > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
>  > > >
>  > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
might be
>  > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
>  > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
too long
>  > > > for anyone to read).
>  > > >
>  > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
>  > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
alot of sea
>  > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
required?
>  > >
>  > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
epoxy/graphite
>  > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
>  > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
>  > > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
>  > > would be done to the mast.
>  > > >
>  > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
safety
>  > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
in heavy
>  > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>  > >
>  > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
>  > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>  > > >
>  > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
>  > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
Or are
>  > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
>  > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
sail and
>  > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
>  > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
>  > more?
>  > >
>  > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
>  > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
hit by
>  > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
athwartships,
>  > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
weathervane,
>  > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
sheeted fore
>  > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
wrong way
>  > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
>  > > >
>  > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
>  > that
>  > > > I might actually see one in person?
>  > >
>  > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
professionally.
>  > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
>  > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
>  > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
sailed
>  > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
>  > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
estimate,
>  > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
>  > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
>  > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
>  > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
>  > > >
>  > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
>  > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
>  > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
mast can
>  > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
>  > endlessly?
>  > >
>  > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
worth
>  > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
Amongst
>  > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
>  > > current designs has stays.
>  > > >
>  > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
sail?
>  > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>  > >
>  > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
boom
>  > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
end of
>  > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
>  > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
when the
>  > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
>  > > >
>  > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
>  > (the
>  > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
>  > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
under
>  > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
states?
>  > >
>  > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
>  > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA>  where Rare Bird reaches at
>  > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
>  > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
one is
>  > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
lighter,
>  > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
in a
>  > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
There
>  > > are some pictures and videos of it at
>  > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html
<http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html>  I appreciate that this is
>  > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
moment.
>  > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
it blows
>  > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
compared
>  > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
>  > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
>  > > >
>  > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>  > >
>  > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
lifts to
>  > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
>  > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
>  > > >
>  > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
>  > boat.
>  > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
AU) and
>  > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
>  > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
Assuming I am
>  > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
can I jst
>  > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
What
>  > > > would $xxx/hr be?
>  > >
>  > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
>  > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
>  > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
>  > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
>  > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
>  > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
issues to
>  > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
>  > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
>  > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
be far
>  > > quicker to install.
>  > > >
>  > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
this, I
>  > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>  > >
>  > > Keep 'em coming!
>  > >
>  > > regards,
>  > >
>  > > Rob Denney
>  > > www.harryproa.com
>  > > >
>  > > > - Gardner
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>

Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe

They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.

---

From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Rob Denney
Sent: Tuesday, 1 April 2008 3:25 a.m.
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Tons of questions

G'day,

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@networknow.org> wrote:

> Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
> my questions into context.

snip
>
> When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
> enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
> more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
> cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
> So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
>
> - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
> "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
> (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
>
> - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
> layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
> loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
> that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
> table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
> balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job. The table
does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the dimensions.
>
> - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
> on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
> managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
> additions.

No problem.
>
> - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
> galley, where do you put everything?

Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard. This is a
good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the storage
space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
>
> - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
> cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
> sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
> cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out. The
build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location. The fit
out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
space, better light and ventilation and at the same level as the
bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
>
> I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
> willing to, my email is gardner@networknow.org.

Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are not of
particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be on the
web page real soon now ........
>
> Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
> Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
> went.

Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
>
> - What is the mast height off the water?

18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a little lower.

regards,

Rob
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
> > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> > >
> > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
> > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
> > > for anyone to read).
> > >
> > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
> > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
> >
> > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
> > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> > would be done to the mast.
> > >
> > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
> > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
> > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> >
> > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > >
> > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
> > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
> > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
> more?
> >
> > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
> > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
> > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
> > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
> > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
> > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> > >
> > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
> that
> > > I might actually see one in person?
> >
> > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
> > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
> > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
> > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > >
> > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
> > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
> endlessly?
> >
> > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
> > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
> > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> > current designs has stays.
> > >
> > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
> > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> >
> > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
> > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
> > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
> > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > >
> > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
> (the
> > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
> > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
> >
> > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
> > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
> > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
> > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
> > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
> > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
> > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
> > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
> > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
> > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> > >
> > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> >
> > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
> > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > >
> > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
> boat.
> > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
> > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
> > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
> > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
> > > would $xxx/hr be?
> >
> > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
> > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
> > quicker to install.
> > >
> > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
> > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> >
> > Keep 'em coming!
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob Denney
> > www.harryproa.com
> > >
> > > - Gardner
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

G'day,

I used to think this as well, but the charter proa has changed some of
my preconceptions.

Light weight is critical for performance, no doubt.  But a harryproa
is inherently lighter than a cat so starts with a big advantage.
Extra weight has 2 drawbacks.  First, performance suffers.  This
applies to both types.  Second, the structure gets overloaded and the
bridgedeck starts slamming.  This only applies to cats.

With a boat which always has a hull to leeward,  there is no reason
this hull cannot be loaded up, to the point that the clearance at the
bow and beams becomes dangerous.      As long as the weight in the
windward hull is correct, there will be no overloading of the
structure.  This is completely different to a cat.

So, the charter proa is designed and engineered for 3.5 tonnes in the
12m windward hull, about a a tonne of which is structure.  There is a
couple of tonnes of structure on the lee hull and payload of another
tonne.  6.5 tonnes all up.    It is designed to carry all this weight
on the lee hull (ie windward hull flying) and still have plenty of
beam clearance and freeboard at the bow.    Adding another 1.3 tonnes
(20% of boat weight)  to the lee hull sinks it a little lower in the
water and the boat goes a little slower, but otherwise nothing
changes.   Add 20% to a cat and you have problems, unless the boat was
originally way over engineered, resulting in more cost and weight.

Hope this is clear.  It only recently dawned on me so i am still
working on the best way to describe it.

My  other conceptions which have altered relate to:
the ease of building rockerless round bilge hulls and reasonably sleek
and curvaceous cabins from flat panels.  The charter ww hull and
saloon could be built from 5 flat panels if the table was large enough
(6 if not) , all except one of which of which bond together  with no
filletting, taping or finishing.  The lw hull and decks are three
panels, plus polystyrene ends.
The ability to have the cabin floor  lower than the bridgedeck and to
extend it all the way across the hull.
The advantages of an electric motor which slides down a rudder blade
when required and is pulled up when not in use.   Even using a gen set
to run the elecric motor, this is an easier approach than outboards or
inboards, with unbelievable maneuverability.  Just got to work on the
price.


regards,

Rob


On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Carlosproacarlos
<carlosproacarlos@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think proas are more weight sensitive than cats. I confess they are my cup
> of tea but is not for everybody. Reading your email I am not sure how much
> money you are willing to spend. If the harry proa is too radical then you
> may want to take a look at the catamaran Tomcat 6.7 which is a 36ft cat for
> the tropics for around $160k. I saw it at the Miami show and for the price
> is very good
>
> But nothing looks cooler than a harryproa
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Mike Crawford <jmichael@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  Gardner,
>
>    Be sure to get in contact with George Marks to get firm plans before
> scheduling any sort of trip.  He is a bit quirky, so you'll want to be sure
> you can see, and hopefully sail the boat, before making the journey.
>
>    I live in Maine, and thought I'd drive over to Rockport by to see the
> boat about two years ago, while there was still snow on the ground.  I
> called first and found Marks to be gruff but reasonable.  He said I could
> come to the yard and look at the boat, but that it would not be assembled,
> that I couldn't get on it, and that he might not have time to discuss it
> with me.  Okay.
>
>    When I arrived, he refused to come out of his basement workshop, or even
> walk over to the door to say hi, but he did yell up to me that I could look
> at the boat.  So my wife and I walked around the demounted proa for a while
> before driving home.  It pretty much looked exactly as we expected it to
> look; it's a great design, but the walkthrough cockpit that Marks chose is
> definitely not something we'd look into ourselves.
>
>    Marks' site, proasail.com, has been taken down, so I'm not sure if he's
> still chartering the proa or not.  If he is, I'll probably charter it for a
> day this summer to see how it feels.  If you're in Maine, you're welcome to
> stop by our place in Brunswick if you need to take a break from traveling.
>
>    The last number I have from proasail is 207-594-2891.  You can see some
> of their old web pages if you use the wayback machine at
> http://www.archive.org.
>
>         - Mike
>
>
>
>
>  gardner.pomper wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
>  my questions into context.
>
>  I bought a Maine Cat 30 catamaran and took a year off to "try out"
>  cruising with my family. We loved the open bridgedeck and it sailed
>  well, considering how overloaded it was. We loved cruising, and wanted
>  to do it again by now, while my daughter is in middle school, but
>  finances will force us to wait till she leaves home in 5 years.
>
>  We found that a 30 foot cat just did not have the payload capacity to
>  be a liveaboard. (Could not add freezer, generator, etc and we were
>  already overloaded) I figure that crew, fluids (water,gas,propane),
>  ground tackle, etc add about 2000 lbs to a boat before provisioning,
>  personal effects, etc. I have pestered Maine Cat for a 35' cat for
>  years, but they ignore me <grin>.
>
>
>  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
>  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
>  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
>  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
>  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
>
>  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
>  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
>  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
>
>  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
>  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
>  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
>  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
>  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
>  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
>
>  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
>  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
>  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
>  additions.
>
>  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
>  galley, where do you put everything?
>
>  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
>  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
>  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
>  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
>
>  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
>  willing to, my email is gardner@....
>
>
>  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
>  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
>  went.
>
>  - What is the mast height off the water?
>
>
>  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > G'day,
>  >
>  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
>  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
>  >
>  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi,
>  > >
>  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
>  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
>  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
>  > >
>  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
>  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
>  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
>  > > for anyone to read).
>  > >
>  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
>  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
>  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>  >
>  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
>  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
>  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
>  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
>  > would be done to the mast.
>  > >
>  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
>  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
>  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>  >
>  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
>  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>  > >
>  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
>  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
>  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
>  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
>  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
>  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
>  more?
>  >
>  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
>  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
>  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
>  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
>  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
>  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
>  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
>  > >
>  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
>  that
>  > > I might actually see one in person?
>  >
>  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
>  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
>  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
>  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
>  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
>  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
>  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
>  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
>  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
>  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
>  > >
>  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
>  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
>  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
>  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
>  endlessly?
>  >
>  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
>  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
>  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
>  > current designs has stays.
>  > >
>  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
>  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>  >
>  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
>  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
>  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
>  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
>  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
>  > >
>  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
>  (the
>  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
>  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
>  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>  >
>  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
>  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
>  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
>  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
>  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
>  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
>  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
>  > are some pictures and videos of it at
>  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
>  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
>  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
>  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
>  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
>  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
>  > >
>  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>  >
>  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
>  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
>  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
>  > >
>  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
>  boat.
>  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
>  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
>  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
>  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
>  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
>  > > would $xxx/hr be?
>  >
>  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
>  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
>  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
>  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
>  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
>  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
>  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
>  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
>  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
>  > quicker to install.
>  > >
>  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
>  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>  >
>  > Keep 'em coming!
>  >
>  > regards,
>  >
>  > Rob Denney
>  > www.harryproa.com
>  > >
>  > > - Gardner
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>
>
>  Messages in this topic (4) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
>  Messages | Files | Photos |
>  ________________________________
> No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo!
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>

Rob,

we can take care of renderings ...

Do you prefer wingmast/stubmast bearings on the foot/deck level or
a fixed stubmast with a wingmast rotating about it ...

Yana is working on the webpages ... you will hear soon about it

Best regards,

Myriam & Youri

On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 11:12 +0800, Rob Denney wrote:
> G'day,
>
> The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
> than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up on the
> bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
> headroom. There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
> The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look from
> the windward side.
>
> The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
> walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull. The roof is a
> foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the windward end
> so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull. At anchor,
> roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.
>
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper
> <gardner@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some sketches or
> > renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the windage
> down
> > and still have visibility from the help to windward.
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker
> <clairebarker5@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
> <gardner@...>
> > > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> > > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly
> 26
> > > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and
> toilet
> > > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as
> to
> > > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means heaps of
> > > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft
> cat
> > > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
> > > slight exageration).
> > > cheers Tim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar
> with
> > > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open
> bridgedeck
> > > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason
> you go
> > > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
> > > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
> from the
> > > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the
> time.
> > > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down
> because
> > > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
> them for
> > > > rain or heavy seas.
> > > >
> > > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
> > > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> > > >
> > > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
> trying to
> > > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
> bridgedeck
> > > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage,
> but I
> > > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> > > >
> > > > - Gardner
> > > >
> > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker"
> <clairebarker5@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper"
> <gardner@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Gardener
> > > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
> liveaboard.For us
> > > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
> space for
> > > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can
> enclose or
> > > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the
> space
> > > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
> reference to the
> > > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> > > > >
> > > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was
> for a
> > > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space,
> no need
> > > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist
> the
> > > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
> > > > >
> > > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
> enough but
> > > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
> tempted to )
> > > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
> down hill
> > > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on
> one
> > > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling
> no doors
> > > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a
> quicker
> > > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> > > > >
> > > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not
> that
> > > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the
> cost of
> > > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was
> about
> > > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area
> and the
> > > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became
> one
> > > > > large living area.
> > > > >
> > > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple
> of
> > > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
> people and
> > > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
> continually
> > > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
> message, you
> > > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of
> 4
> > > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
> mind. The
> > > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
> payload
> > > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although
> I have
> > > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> > > fridge/freezer. If
> > > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be
> great. We
> > > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a
> 2000lb
> > > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with
> us.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the
> larger
> > > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many
> guests,
> > > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
> > > schooner
> > > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Back to general questions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be
> performed
> > > when
> > > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a
> larger
> > > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the
> rudders
> > > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk
> around
> > > to the
> > > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> > > motorsailing? I
> > > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the
> Intracoastal
> > > on the
> > > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
> interspersed
> > > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have
> always
> > > liked to
> > > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With
> the
> > > mast
> > > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind
> up
> > > around
> > > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
> direction you
> > > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
> > > questions.
> > > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I
> never
> > > took
> > > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> <harryproa@>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
> background
> > > > > to put
> > > > > > > > my questions into context.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > snip
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems
> like
> > > > it has
> > > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
> > > > (although
> > > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking
> for a
> > > > > coastal
> > > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and
> the
> > > > > caribbean.
> > > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on
> Visionarry.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
> Does it
> > > > > include
> > > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
> about the
> > > > > sails?
> > > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail
> except
> > > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
> > > > rudders etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you
> have
> > > > > any 2D
> > > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look
> at? We
> > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I
> am
> > > > > concerned
> > > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> > > > > dropping the
> > > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
> simple model
> > > > > > out of
> > > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
> job. The
> > > > table
> > > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the
> > > > dimensions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a
> deal
> > > > > breaker
> > > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add
> one,
> > > but he
> > > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one
> of the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > additions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the
> hull
> > > > in the
> > > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even
> an
> > > extended
> > > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but
> it
> > > does
> > > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
> > > This is a
> > > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
> your wife!
> > > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is
> not
> > > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase
> the
> > > > storage
> > > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all
> the
> > > comforts
> > > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better
> bet..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between
> a proa
> > > > > and a
> > > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> > > > designed. Are
> > > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the
> relative
> > > > build
> > > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter?
> Double?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
> fit out.
> > > > The
> > > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although
> there are
> > > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour
> location.
> > > > The fit
> > > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker.
> The
> > > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones
> in the ww
> > > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
> more floor
> > > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level
> as the
> > > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups.
> If
> > > > you are
> > > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are
> not of
> > > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion
> purposes
> > > only,
> > > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will
> be
> > > on the
> > > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out
> the
> > > > > boat in
> > > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
> Sept as to
> > > > > > how it
> > > > > > > > went.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked
> all your
> > > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off
> and
> > > sends
> > > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
> back here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig
> so a
> > > > > > little lower.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney"
> <harryproa@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please
> keep
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
> <gardner@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can
> find
> > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is
> very
> > > > > > little hard
> > > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best
> place to
> > > > start.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> > > although it
> > > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with
> some
> > > > general
> > > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
> would be
> > > > > > too long
> > > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How
> susceptible is
> > > > > that to
> > > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
> subject to
> > > > > > alot of sea
> > > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
> maintenance
> > > > > > required?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > > > > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a
> boot
> > > > > around
> > > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit)
> did
> > > get in
> > > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
> plastic so no
> > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
> > > have any
> > > > > > safety
> > > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need
> to reef
> > > > > > in heavy
> > > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge
> deck.
> > > > There
> > > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you
> reef.
> > > > Is it
> > > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach
> it
> > > then.
> > > > > > Or are
> > > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> > > > > "normal" cat?
> > > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
> behind the
> > > > > > sail and
> > > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
> making the
> > > > > boat
> > > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
> handling a
> > > > > little
> > > > > > > > more?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
> release the
> > > > > sheet.
> > > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful
> not
> > > to get
> > > > > > hit by
> > > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > > > > > athwartships,
> > > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as
> a
> > > > > > weathervane,
> > > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can
> be
> > > > > > sheeted fore
> > > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
> capsizing the
> > > > > > wrong way
> > > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask
> more
> > > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
> coast of
> > > > > the US
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > > > > > professionally.
> > > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat
> for the
> > > > > boats
> > > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk
> through
> > > > > windward
> > > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is
> that
> > > it has
> > > > > > sailed
> > > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
> > > have. The
> > > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our
> price
> > > > > > estimate,
> > > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish
> the
> > > > painting
> > > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is
> George
> > > > Marks. He
> > > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> > > > grateful for
> > > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the
> boat.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also
> that
> > > > it is
> > > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast
> still
> > > > > rotate 360
> > > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
> far the
> > > > > > mast can
> > > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
> > > direction
> > > > > > > > endlessly?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
> > > are not
> > > > > > worth
> > > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers
> eiither.
> > > > > > Amongst
> > > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
> degrees. None
> > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
> > > downwind
> > > > > > sail?
> > > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the
> front
> > > of the
> > > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
> > > the back
> > > > > > end of
> > > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type
> sail is
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
> hauled, even
> > > > > > when the
> > > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
> athwartships.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed
> of
> > > > > Blind Date
> > > > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing).
> Has a
> > > > polar
> > > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings
> of
> > > speed
> > > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
> > > and sea
> > > > > > states?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare
> Bird
> > > > > > reaches at
> > > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are
> not
> > > right
> > > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
> > > see, no
> > > > > > one is
> > > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
> considerably
> > > > > > lighter,
> > > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in
> the
> > > water
> > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming,
> I
> > > hope.
> > > > > > There
> > > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate
> that
> > > > > this is
> > > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have
> at the
> > > > > > moment.
> > > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the
> harder
> > > > > > it blows
> > > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
> perform,
> > > > > > compared
> > > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> > > hulls, the
> > > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
> > > platform.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
> Harryproa)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the
> hull
> > > > > > lifts to
> > > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less
> likely,
> > > > > except
> > > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the
> time/talent to
> > > > > build a
> > > > > > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
> Visionarry ($80K
> > > > > > AU) and
> > > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate
> into a
> > > > > budgetary
> > > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this
> boat?
> > > > > > Assuming I am
> > > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent
> work,
> > > > > > can I jst
> > > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get
> a
> > > number?
> > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
> > > Australian
> > > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
> > > > expensive
> > > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
> currently
> > > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa,
> the
> > > > > Caribbean
> > > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their
> labour
> > > > > rates are
> > > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
> quality
> > > > > > issues to
> > > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build
> to
> > > > > ensure high
> > > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
> > > > hours and
> > > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> > > interior will
> > > > > > be far
> > > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> > > replies to
> > > > > > this, I
> > > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> > > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

G'day,

The visibility to windward comes from having the cabin floor lower
than the rest of the bridgedeck, which means you can stand up on the
bridgedeck and see over the saloon even though it has full standing
headroom.    There is no slamming as it is always the windward hull.
  The lower roof also reduces windage and gives it a sleeker look from
the windward side.

The cantilevered roof over the helmsman is the width of the solid
walkway and is carried all the way to the lee hull.  The roof is a
foot higher than the cabin roof with a windshield on the windward end
so the helsman is protected, but can see over the hull.  At anchor,
roll down clears make this an extension of the cabin.

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some sketches or
> renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the windage down
> and still have visibility from the help to windward.
>
> - Gardner
>
>
>
>  On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker <clairebarker5@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@...>
> > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly 26
> > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and toilet
> > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as to
> > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means heaps of
> > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft cat
> > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
> > slight exageration).
> > cheers Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar with
> > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open bridgedeck
> > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason you go
> > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
> > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you from the
> > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the time.
> > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down because
> > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close them for
> > > rain or heavy seas.
> > >
> > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
> > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> > >
> > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with trying to
> > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open bridgedeck
> > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage, but I
> > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> > >
> > > - Gardner
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Gardener
> > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four liveaboard.For us
> > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living space for
> > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can enclose or
> > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the space
> > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in reference to the
> > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> > > >
> > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was for a
> > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space, no need
> > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist the
> > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
> > > >
> > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide enough but
> > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was tempted to )
> > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling down hill
> > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on one
> > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling no doors
> > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a quicker
> > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> > > >
> > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not that
> > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the cost of
> > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was about
> > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area and the
> > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became one
> > > > large living area.
> > > >
> > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple of
> > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> > > >
> > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of people and
> > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations continually
> > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
> > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
> > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the payload
> > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
> > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> > fridge/freezer. If
> > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
> > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
> > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
> > schooner
> > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to general questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed
> > when
> > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
> > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around
> > to the
> > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> > motorsailing? I
> > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal
> > on the
> > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
> > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always
> > liked to
> > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the
> > mast
> > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up
> > around
> > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
> > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
> > questions.
> > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never
> > took
> > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Gardner
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background
> > > > to put
> > > > > > > my questions into context.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > snip
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like
> > > it has
> > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
> > > (although
> > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a
> > > > coastal
> > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the
> > > > caribbean.
> > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it
> > > > include
> > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the
> > > > sails?
> > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
> > > rudders etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have
> > > > any 2D
> > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
> > > > > really
> > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am
> > > > concerned
> > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> > > > dropping the
> > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
> > > > > out of
> > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job. The
> > > table
> > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the
> > > dimensions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal
> > > > breaker
> > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one,
> > but he
> > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the
> > > > best
> > > > > > > additions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull
> > > in the
> > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an
> > extended
> > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it
> > does
> > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
> > This is a
> > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the
> > > storage
> > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the
> > comforts
> > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa
> > > > and a
> > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> > > designed. Are
> > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative
> > > build
> > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.
> > > The
> > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location.
> > > The fit
> > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
> > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level as the
> > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If
> > > you are
> > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are not of
> > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes
> > only,
> > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be
> > on the
> > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the
> > > > boat in
> > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
> > > > > how it
> > > > > > > went.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and
> > sends
> > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> > > > > little lower.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep
> > > them
> > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find
> > > on the
> > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
> > > > > little hard
> > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to
> > > start.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> > although it
> > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some
> > > general
> > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
> > > > > too long
> > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is
> > > > that to
> > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
> > > > > alot of sea
> > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
> > > > > required?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > > > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot
> > > > around
> > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did
> > get in
> > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no
> > > > harm
> > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
> > have any
> > > > > safety
> > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
> > > > > in heavy
> > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.
> > > There
> > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef.
> > > Is it
> > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it
> > then.
> > > > > Or are
> > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> > > > "normal" cat?
> > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
> > > > > sail and
> > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the
> > > > boat
> > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a
> > > > little
> > > > > > > more?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the
> > > > sheet.
> > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not
> > to get
> > > > > hit by
> > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > > > > athwartships,
> > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> > > > > weathervane,
> > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> > > > > sheeted fore
> > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
> > > > > wrong way
> > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more
> > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of
> > > > the US
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > > > > professionally.
> > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the
> > > > boats
> > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through
> > > > windward
> > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that
> > it has
> > > > > sailed
> > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
> > have. The
> > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
> > > > > estimate,
> > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the
> > > painting
> > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George
> > > Marks. He
> > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> > > grateful for
> > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that
> > > it is
> > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still
> > > > rotate 360
> > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
> > > > > mast can
> > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
> > direction
> > > > > > > endlessly?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
> > are not
> > > > > worth
> > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
> > > > > Amongst
> > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
> > downwind
> > > > > sail?
> > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front
> > of the
> > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
> > the back
> > > > > end of
> > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is
> > > > best
> > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
> > > > > when the
> > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of
> > > > Blind Date
> > > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a
> > > polar
> > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of
> > speed
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
> > and sea
> > > > > states?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
> > > > > reaches at
> > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not
> > right
> > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
> > see, no
> > > > > one is
> > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
> > > > > lighter,
> > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the
> > water
> > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I
> > hope.
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that
> > > > this is
> > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
> > > > > moment.
> > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
> > > > > it blows
> > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
> > > > > compared
> > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> > hulls, the
> > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
> > platform.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
> > > > > lifts to
> > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely,
> > > > except
> > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to
> > > > build a
> > > > > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
> > > > > AU) and
> > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a
> > > > budgetary
> > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> > > > > Assuming I am
> > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
> > > > > can I jst
> > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a
> > number?
> > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
> > Australian
> > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
> > > expensive
> > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the
> > > > Caribbean
> > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour
> > > > rates are
> > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
> > > > > issues to
> > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to
> > > > ensure high
> > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
> > > hours and
> > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> > interior will
> > > > > be far
> > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> > replies to
> > > > > this, I
> > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:08 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>  I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
>  mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
>  liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
>  Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct?

Yes.

Because the payload
>  capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
>  not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and fridge/freezer. If
>  there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
>  travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
>  payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
>
>  Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
>  version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
>  2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the schooner
>  rig concerns me for that.

The schooner rig is harder to control than the ballestron (2 highly
loaded sheets vs one lightly loaded) and is a bit heavier and more
expensive.  However, it is less hassle to hoist and trim sails, and at
least until you have some experience, it is much easier to shunt.  It
also opens up the lee hull, which is why the charter boat has it.
>
>  Back to general questions:
>
>  Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed when
>  shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
>  version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
>  switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around to the
>  otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about motorsailing? I
>  know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal on the
>  east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
>  with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always liked to
>  keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.

The rudders on the hull require two wheels which need switching
(simple pin in the boss of the wheel).  The rudders on the beams only
one, unless you want to use them for crabbing off a marina wall, in
which case two.  With liftable electric motors on the rudders, this
won't be necessary .  To shunt, you release the current sheet(s) and
trim on the new one by hand a little.  The boat stops.  Rotate the
rudders, pull on the sheet(s) and sail away.  The pulling iof the new
sheets is pretty easy as the boat is luffing.  Only the last few feet
has any load on it.  With a schooner, you trim the new fore sail
first, to about the angle of a jib (say 10% off fore and aft) then the
aft sail is pulled into the centreline.  The schooner has rigid booms
so the sheet loads are far less than booms with goosenecks.  the sheet
is only pulling the sail in, not down.
>
>  I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the mast
>  rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up around
>  the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
>  sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?

A boom sheet for each direction, all other lines stay on the mast or boom.
>
>  Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer questions.
>  I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never took
>  them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.

No sweat.

Regards,

Rob
>
>  - Gardner
>
>  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > G'day,
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
>  > > my questions into context.
>  >
>  > snip
>  > >
>  > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
>  > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
>  > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
>  > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
>  > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
>  > >
>  > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
>  > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
>  > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
>  >
>  > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
>  > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
>  > >
>  > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
>  > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
>  really
>  > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
>  > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
>  > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
>  out of
>  > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
>  >
>  > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job. The table
>  > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the dimensions.
>  > >
>  > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
>  > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
>  > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
>  > > additions.
>  >
>  > No problem.
>  > >
>  > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
>  > > galley, where do you put everything?
>  >
>  > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
>  > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
>  > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard. This is a
>  > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
>  > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
>  > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the storage
>  > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
>  > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
>  > >
>  > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
>  > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
>  > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
>  > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
>  >
>  > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out. The
>  > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
>  > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location. The fit
>  > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
>  > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
>  > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
>  > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level as the
>  > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
>  > >
>  > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
>  > > willing to, my email is gardner@...
>  >
>  > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are not of
>  > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
>  > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be on the
>  > web page real soon now ........
>  > >
>  > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
>  > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
>  how it
>  > > went.
>  >
>  > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
>  > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
>  > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
>  > >
>  > > - What is the mast height off the water?
>  >
>  > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
>  little lower.
>  >
>  > regards,
>  >
>  > Rob
>  > >
>  > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
>  > > >
>  > > > G'day,
>  > > >
>  > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
>  > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
>  > > >
>  > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
>  > > >
>  > > > > Hi,
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
>  > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
>  little hard
>  > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
>  might be
>  > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
>  > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
>  too long
>  > > > > for anyone to read).
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
>  > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
>  alot of sea
>  > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
>  required?
>  > > >
>  > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
>  epoxy/graphite
>  > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
>  > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
>  > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
>  > > > would be done to the mast.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
>  safety
>  > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
>  in heavy
>  > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>  > > >
>  > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
>  > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
>  > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
>  Or are
>  > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
>  > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
>  sail and
>  > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
>  > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
>  > > more?
>  > > >
>  > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
>  > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
>  hit by
>  > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
>  athwartships,
>  > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
>  weathervane,
>  > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
>  sheeted fore
>  > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
>  wrong way
>  > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
>  > > that
>  > > > > I might actually see one in person?
>  > > >
>  > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
>  professionally.
>  > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
>  > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
>  > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
>  sailed
>  > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
>  > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
>  estimate,
>  > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
>  > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
>  > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
>  > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
>  > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
>  > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
>  mast can
>  > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
>  > > endlessly?
>  > > >
>  > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
>  worth
>  > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
>  Amongst
>  > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
>  > > > current designs has stays.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
>  sail?
>  > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>  > > >
>  > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
>  boom
>  > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
>  end of
>  > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
>  > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
>  when the
>  > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
>  > > (the
>  > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
>  > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
>  under
>  > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
>  states?
>  > > >
>  > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
>  > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
>  reaches at
>  > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
>  > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
>  one is
>  > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
>  lighter,
>  > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
>  in a
>  > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
>  There
>  > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
>  > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
>  > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
>  moment.
>  > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
>  it blows
>  > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
>  compared
>  > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
>  > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>  > > >
>  > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
>  lifts to
>  > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
>  > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
>  > > boat.
>  > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
>  AU) and
>  > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
>  > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
>  Assuming I am
>  > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
>  can I jst
>  > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
>  What
>  > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
>  > > >
>  > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
>  > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
>  > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
>  > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
>  > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
>  > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
>  issues to
>  > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
>  > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
>  > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
>  be far
>  > > > quicker to install.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
>  this, I
>  > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>  > > >
>  > > > Keep 'em coming!
>  > > >
>  > > > regards,
>  > > >
>  > > > Rob Denney
>  > > > www.harryproa.com
>  > > > >
>  > > > > - Gardner
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>
>

--- Im a bit hopless with all this as yet but if your intersted you
could talk to Rob.

Ps to all will be away till about the 14th April
Cheers Tim

In harryproa@..., "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> That sounds really exciting. Any chance I can get some sketches or
> renderings? I am particularly interested on how you keep the windage
down
> and still have visibility from the help to windward.
>
> - Gardner
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Tim Barker <clairebarker5@...>
> wrote:
>
> >   --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>, "
> > gardner.pomper" <gardner@>
> > wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
> > To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly 26
> > x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and toilet
> > will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as to
> > minimise wastage of full headroom space which still means heaps of
> > room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft cat
> > or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
> > slight exageration).
> > cheers Tim
> > >
> > > I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar with
> > > the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open bridgedeck
> > > that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason you go
> > > below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
> > > enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you
from the
> > > weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the
time.
> > > I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down
because
> > > you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close
them for
> > > rain or heavy seas.
> > >
> > > If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
> > > MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
> > >
> > > I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with
trying to
> > > figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open
bridgedeck
> > > layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage,
but I
> > > also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
> > >
> > > - Gardner
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>,
> > "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>,
> > "gardner.pomper" <gardner@>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Gardener
> > > > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of four
liveaboard.For us
> > > > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living
space for
> > > > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can enclose or
> > > > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the space
> > > > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in
reference to the
> > > > separation of the sailing/living areas.
> > > >
> > > > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was for a
> > > > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space,
no need
> > > > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist the
> > > > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
> > > >
> > > > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide
enough but
> > > > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was
tempted to )
> > > > youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling
down hill
> > > > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on one
> > > > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling
no doors
> > > > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a quicker
> > > > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> > > >
> > > > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not that
> > > > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the cost of
> > > > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was about
> > > > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area
and the
> > > > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became one
> > > > large living area.
> > > >
> > > > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple of
> > > > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> > > >
> > > > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of
people and
> > > > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations
continually
> > > > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Tim
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that
message, you
> > > > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> > > > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in
mind. The
> > > > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the
payload
> > > > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although
I have
> > > > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
> > fridge/freezer. If
> > > > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> > > > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a
2000lb
> > > > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> > > > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many
guests,
> > > > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
> > schooner
> > > > > rig concerns me for that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back to general questions:
> > > > >
> > > > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed
> > when
> > > > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a
larger
> > > > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> > > > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around
> > to the
> > > > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
> > motorsailing? I
> > > > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal
> > on the
> > > > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail,
interspersed
> > > > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always
> > liked to
> > > > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the
> > mast
> > > > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up
> > around
> > > > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each
direction you
> > > > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
> > questions.
> > > > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never
> > took
> > > > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Gardner
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>,
> > "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief
background
> > > > to put
> > > > > > > my questions into context.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > snip
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like
> > > it has
> > > > > > > enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
> > > (although
> > > > > > > more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking
for a
> > > > coastal
> > > > > > > cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the
> > > > caribbean.
> > > > > > > So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty?
Does it
> > > > include
> > > > > > > "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What
about the
> > > > sails?
> > > > > > > (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail
except
> > > > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
> > > rudders etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you
have
> > > > any 2D
> > > > > > > layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look
at? We
> > > > > really
> > > > > > > loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am
> > > > concerned
> > > > > > > that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> > > > dropping the
> > > > > > > table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a
simple model
> > > > > out of
> > > > > > > balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the
job. The
> > > table
> > > > > > does not prevent access to the wheel. I will forward the
> > > dimensions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal
> > > > breaker
> > > > > > > on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one,
> > but he
> > > > > > > managed and the people who know the boats say it was one
of the
> > > > best
> > > > > > > additions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No problem.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull
> > > in the
> > > > > > > galley, where do you put everything?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an
> > extended
> > > > > > cruiser. Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it
> > does
> > > > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
> > This is a
> > > > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress
your wife!
> > > > > > There is huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > > > > > readily accessible. There are layout options to increase the
> > > storage
> > > > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the
> > comforts
> > > > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better
bet..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between
a proa
> > > > and a
> > > > > > > cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> > > designed. Are
> > > > > > > sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative
> > > build
> > > > > > > cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and
fit out.
> > > The
> > > > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although
there are
> > > > > > more of them) and it will be built in a low labour location.
> > > The fit
> > > > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is also simpler and quicker. The
> > > > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones
in the ww
> > > > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds,
more floor
> > > > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the same level
as the
> > > > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If
> > > you are
> > > > > > > willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Will do. Anyone else wanting them, let me know. They are
not of
> > > > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes
> > only,
> > > > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible. They will be
> > on the
> > > > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the
> > > > boat in
> > > > > > > Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in
Sept as to
> > > > > how it
> > > > > > > went.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked
all your
> > > > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and
> > sends
> > > > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report
back here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> > > > > little lower.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rob
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In
harryproa@...<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>,
> > "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > G'day,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please
keep
> > > them
> > > > > > > > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper
<gardner@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find
> > > on the
> > > > > > > > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is
very
> > > > > little hard
> > > > > > > > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to
> > > start.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
> > although it
> > > > > might be
> > > > > > > > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some
> > > general
> > > > > > > > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post
would be
> > > > > too long
> > > > > > > > > for anyone to read).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is
> > > > that to
> > > > > > > > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are
subject to
> > > > > alot of sea
> > > > > > > > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the
maintenance
> > > > > required?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > > > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > > > > > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a
boot
> > > > around
> > > > > > > > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did
> > get in
> > > > > > > > there, it would probably become embedded in the
plastic so no
> > > > harm
> > > > > > > > would be done to the mast.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
> > have any
> > > > > safety
> > > > > > > > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need
to reef
> > > > > in heavy
> > > > > > > > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.
> > > There
> > > > > > > > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you
reef.
> > > Is it
> > > > > > > > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it
> > then.
> > > > > Or are
> > > > > > > > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> > > > "normal" cat?
> > > > > > > > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting
behind the
> > > > > sail and
> > > > > > > > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull,
making the
> > > > boat
> > > > > > > > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat
handling a
> > > > little
> > > > > > > more?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and
release the
> > > > sheet.
> > > > > > > > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not
> > to get
> > > > > hit by
> > > > > > > > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > > > > athwartships,
> > > > > > > > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> > > > > weathervane,
> > > > > > > > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> > > > > sheeted fore
> > > > > > > > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so
capsizing the
> > > > > wrong way
> > > > > > > > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more
> > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east
coast of
> > > > the US
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > > > > professionally.
> > > > > > > > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat
for the
> > > > boats
> > > > > > > > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through
> > > > windward
> > > > > > > > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that
> > it has
> > > > > sailed
> > > > > > > > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
> > have. The
> > > > > > > > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our
price
> > > > > estimate,
> > > > > > > > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the
> > > painting
> > > > > > > > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George
> > > Marks. He
> > > > > > > > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> > > grateful for
> > > > > > > > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that
> > > it is
> > > > > > > > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still
> > > > rotate 360
> > > > > > > > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how
far the
> > > > > mast can
> > > > > > > > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
> > direction
> > > > > > > endlessly?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
> > are not
> > > > > worth
> > > > > > > > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers
eiither.
> > > > > Amongst
> > > > > > > > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360
degrees. None
> > > > of the
> > > > > > > > current designs has stays.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
> > downwind
> > > > > sail?
> > > > > > > > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front
> > of the
> > > > > boom
> > > > > > > > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
> > the back
> > > > > end of
> > > > > > > > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type
sail is
> > > > best
> > > > > > > > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close
hauled, even
> > > > > when the
> > > > > > > > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is
athwartships.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of
> > > > Blind Date
> > > > > > > (the
> > > > > > > > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing).
Has a
> > > polar
> > > > > > > > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of
> > speed
> > > > > under
> > > > > > > > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
> > and sea
> > > > > states?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
> > > > > reaches at
> > > > > > > > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not
> > right
> > > > > > > > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
> > see, no
> > > > > one is
> > > > > > > > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is
considerably
> > > > > lighter,
> > > > > > > > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the
> > water
> > > > > in a
> > > > > > > > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I
> > hope.
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > > > > > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate
that
> > > > this is
> > > > > > > > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have
at the
> > > > > moment.
> > > > > > > > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the
harder
> > > > > it blows
> > > > > > > > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will
perform,
> > > > > compared
> > > > > > > > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
> > hulls, the
> > > > > > > > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
> > platform.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and
Harryproa)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the
hull
> > > > > lifts to
> > > > > > > > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less
likely,
> > > > except
> > > > > > > > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to
> > > > build a
> > > > > > > boat.
> > > > > > > > > I have seen the stated materials costs for
Visionarry ($80K
> > > > > AU) and
> > > > > > > > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a
> > > > budgetary
> > > > > > > > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> > > > > Assuming I am
> > > > > > > > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent
work,
> > > > > can I jst
> > > > > > > > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a
> > number?
> > > > > What
> > > > > > > > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
> > Australian
> > > > > > > > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
> > > expensive
> > > > > > > > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am
currently
> > > > > > > > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the
> > > > Caribbean
> > > > > > > > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour
> > > > rates are
> > > > > > > > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be
quality
> > > > > issues to
> > > > > > > > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to
> > > > ensure high
> > > > > > > > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
> > > hours and
> > > > > > > > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
> > interior will
> > > > > be far
> > > > > > > > quicker to install.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
> > replies to
> > > > > this, I
> > > > > > > > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rob Denney
> > > > > > > > www.harryproa.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > - Gardner
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Gardner,

  Be sure to get in contact with George Marks to get firm plans before scheduling any sort of trip.  He is a bit quirky, so you'll want to be sure you can see, and hopefully sail the boat, before making the journey.

  I live in Maine, and thought I'd drive over to Rockport by to see the boat about two years ago, while there was still snow on the ground.  I called first and found Marks to be gruff but reasonable.  He said I could come to the yard and look at the boat, but that it would not be assembled, that I couldn't get on it, and that he might not have time to discuss it with me.  Okay.

  When I arrived, he refused to come out of his basement workshop, or even walk over to the door to say hi, but he did yell up to me that I could look at the boat.  So my wife and I walked around the demounted proa for a while before driving home.  It pretty much looked exactly as we expected it to look; it's a great design, but the walkthrough cockpit that Marks chose is definitely not something we'd look into ourselves.

  Marks' site, proasail.com, has been taken down, so I'm not sure if he's still chartering the proa or not.  If he is, I'll probably charter it for a day this summer to see how it feels.  If you're in Maine, you're welcome to stop by our place in Brunswick if you need to take a break from traveling.

  The last number I have from proasail is 207-594-2891.  You can see some of their old web pages if you use the wayback machine at http://www.archive.org.

       - Mike


 

gardner.pomper wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
my questions into context.

I bought a Maine Cat 30 catamaran and took a year off to "try out"
cruising with my family. We loved the open bridgedeck and it sailed
well, considering how overloaded it was. We loved cruising, and wanted
to do it again by now, while my daughter is in middle school, but
finances will force us to wait till she leaves home in 5 years.

We found that a 30 foot cat just did not have the payload capacity to
be a liveaboard. (Could not add freezer, generator, etc and we were
already overloaded) I figure that crew, fluids (water,gas,propane),
ground tackle, etc add about 2000 lbs to a boat before provisioning,
personal effects, etc. I have pestered Maine Cat for a 35' cat for
years, but they ignore me <grin>.

When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.

- I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
"built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
(Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

- I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

- Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
additions.

- What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
galley, where do you put everything?

- My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
willing to, my email is gardner@networknow.org.

Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
went.

- What is the mast height off the water?

--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> coming. My answers follow your questions.
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
> > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> >
> > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
> > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
> > for anyone to read).
> >
> > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
> > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>
> Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
> inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> would be done to the mast.
> >
> > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
> > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
> > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>
> The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> >
> > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
> > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
> > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
more?
>
> Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
> the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
> which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
> keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
> and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
> is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> >
> > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
that
> > I might actually see one in person?
>
> There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
> It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
> at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
> despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> >
> > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
> > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
endlessly?
>
> I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
> the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
> other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> current designs has stays.
> >
> > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
> > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>
> Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
> and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
> the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
> breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> >
> > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
(the
> > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
> > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>
> The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
> wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
> trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
> with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
> month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
> are some pictures and videos of it at
> http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
> not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
> Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
> and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
> to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> >
> > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>
> 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
> the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> when motoring straight into big waves. .
> >
> > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
boat.
> > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
> > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
> > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
> > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
> > would $xxx/hr be?
>
> $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
> overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
> quicker to install.
> >
> > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
> > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>
> Keep 'em coming!
>
> regards,
>
> Rob Denney
> www.harryproa.com
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> >
>

Messages in this topic (4) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

Messages | Files | Photos |

Gardner,

  Be sure to get in contact with George Marks to get firm plans before scheduling any sort of trip.  He is a bit quirky, so you'll want to be sure you can see, and hopefully sail the boat, before making the journey.

  I live in Maine, and thought I'd drive over to Rockport by to see the boat about two years ago, while there was still snow on the ground.  I called first and found Marks to be gruff but reasonable.  He said I could come to the yard and look at the boat, but that it would not be assembled, that I couldn't get on it, and that he might not have time to discuss it with me.  Okay.

  When I arrived, he refused to come out of his basement workshop, or even walk over to the door to say hi, but he did yell up to me that I could look at the boat.  So my wife and I walked around the demounted proa for a while before driving home.  It pretty much looked exactly as we expected it to look; it's a great design, but the walkthrough cockpit that Marks chose is definitely not something we'd look into ourselves.

  Marks' site, proasail.com, has been taken down, so I'm not sure if he's still chartering the proa or not.  If he is, I'll probably charter it for a day this summer to see how it feels.  If you're in Maine, you're welcome to stop by our place in Brunswick if you need to take a break from traveling.

  The last number I have from proasail is 207-594-2891.  You can see some of their old web pages if you use the wayback machine at http://www.archive.org.

       - Mike


 

gardner.pomper wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
my questions into context.

I bought a Maine Cat 30 catamaran and took a year off to "try out"
cruising with my family. We loved the open bridgedeck and it sailed
well, considering how overloaded it was. We loved cruising, and wanted
to do it again by now, while my daughter is in middle school, but
finances will force us to wait till she leaves home in 5 years.

We found that a 30 foot cat just did not have the payload capacity to
be a liveaboard. (Could not add freezer, generator, etc and we were
already overloaded) I figure that crew, fluids (water,gas,propane),
ground tackle, etc add about 2000 lbs to a boat before provisioning,
personal effects, etc. I have pestered Maine Cat for a 35' cat for
years, but they ignore me <grin>.

When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.

- I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
"built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
(Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

- I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

- Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
additions.

- What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
galley, where do you put everything?

- My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
willing to, my email is gardner@networknow.org.

Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
went.

- What is the mast height off the water?

--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> coming. My answers follow your questions.
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
> > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> >
> > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
> > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
> > for anyone to read).
> >
> > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
> > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>
> Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
> inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> would be done to the mast.
> >
> > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
> > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
> > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>
> The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> >
> > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
> > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
> > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
more?
>
> Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
> the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
> which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
> keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
> and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
> is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> >
> > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
that
> > I might actually see one in person?
>
> There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
> It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
> at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
> despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> >
> > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
> > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
endlessly?
>
> I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
> the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
> other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> current designs has stays.
> >
> > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
> > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>
> Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
> and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
> the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
> breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> >
> > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
(the
> > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
> > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>
> The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
> wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
> trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
> with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
> month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
> are some pictures and videos of it at
> http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
> not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
> Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
> and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
> to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> >
> > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>
> 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
> the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> when motoring straight into big waves. .
> >
> > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
boat.
> > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
> > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
> > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
> > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
> > would $xxx/hr be?
>
> $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
> overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
> quicker to install.
> >
> > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
> > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>
> Keep 'em coming!
>
> regards,
>
> Rob Denney
> www.harryproa.com
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> >
>

Messages in this topic (4) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic

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--- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@...>
wrote:I had a look at the Maine cat ,looks very nice.
To put the Liveaboard in perspective, the main saloon is roughly 26
x10.5' total with 16 x 10.5 full standing headroom the beds and toilet
will be utilizing the sloping cabin ends as much as possible so as to
minimise wastage of full headroom space  which still means heaps of
room and at the end of the day whats going to sail better a 30ft cat
or a 50ft proa that only costs as much to build as the cat (maybe
slight exageration).
cheers Tim
>
> I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar with
> the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open bridgedeck
> that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason you go
> below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
> enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you from the
> weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the time.
> I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down because
> you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close them for
> rain or heavy seas.
>
> If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
> MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.
>
> I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with trying to
> figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open bridgedeck
> layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage, but I
> also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.
>
> - Gardner
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@>
wrote:
> >
> > Hi Gardener
> > Im the one Robs refering to re the family of  four liveaboard.For us
> > it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living space for
> > your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can enclose or
> > make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the space
> > seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in reference to the
> >  separation of the sailing/living areas.
> >
> > The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was for a
> > craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space, no need
> > to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist the
> > temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
> >
> > We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide enough  but
> > the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was tempted to )
> >  youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling down hill
> > getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on one
> > level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling no doors
> > ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a quicker
> > cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
> >
> > Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not that
> > much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the cost of
> > living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was about
> > haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area and the
> > tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became one
> > large living area.
> >
> > Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple of
> > reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
> >
> > I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of people and
> > maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations continually
> > thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
> >
> > Cheers Tim
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
> > > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> > > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
> > > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the payload
> > > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
> > > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and
fridge/freezer. If
> > > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> > > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
> > > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
> > >
> > > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> > > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
> > > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the
schooner
> > > rig concerns me for that.
> > >
> > > Back to general questions:
> > >
> > > Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed
when
> > > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
> > > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> > > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around
to the
> > > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about
motorsailing? I
> > > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal
on the
> > > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
> > > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always
liked to
> > > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> > >
> > > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the
mast
> > > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up
around
> > > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
> > > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer
questions.
> > > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never
took
> > > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> > >
> > > - Gardner
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background
> > to put
> > > > >  my questions into context.
> > > >
> > > > snip
> > > > >
> > > > >  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like
> it has
> > > > >  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
> (although
> > > > >  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a
> > coastal
> > > > >  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the
> > caribbean.
> > > > >  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > > > >
> > > > >  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it
> > include
> > > > >  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the
> > sails?
> > > > >  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > > >
> > > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> > > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
> rudders etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have
> > any 2D
> > > > >  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
> > > really
> > > > >  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am
> > concerned
> > > > >  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> > dropping the
> > > > >  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
> > > out of
> > > > >  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > > >
> > > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job.  The
> table
> > > > does not prevent access to the wheel.  I will forward the
> dimensions.
> > > > >
> > > > >  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal
> > breaker
> > > > >  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one,
but he
> > > > >  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the
> > best
> > > > >  additions.
> > > >
> > > > No problem.
> > > > >
> > > > >  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull
> in the
> > > > >  galley, where do you put everything?
> > > >
> > > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an
extended
> > > > cruiser.  Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it
does
> > > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.
This is a
> > > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> > > > There is  huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > > > readily accessible.  There are layout options to increase the
> storage
> > > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the
comforts
> > > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> > > > >
> > > > >  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa
> > and a
> > > > >  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
> designed. Are
> > > > >  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative
> build
> > > > >  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> > > >
> > > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.
>  The
> > > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> > > > more of them)  and it will be built in a low labour location.
> The fit
> > > > out of the saloon and ww hull is  also simpler and quicker.   The
> > > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> > > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> > > > space, better light and ventilation and at the  same level as the
> > > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > > >
> > > > >  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If
> you are
> > > > >  willing to, my email is gardner@
> > > >
> > > > Will do.  Anyone else wanting them, let me know.  They are not of
> > > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes
only,
> > > > but will give you an idea of what is possible.   They will be
on the
> > > > web page real soon now ........
> > > > >
> > > > >  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the
> > boat in
> > > > >  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
> > > how it
> > > > >  went.
> > > >
> > > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> > > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and
sends
> > > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> > > > >
> > > > >  - What is the mast height off the water?
> > > >
> > > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> > > little lower.
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > > >
> > > > >  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > G'day,
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep
> them
> > > > >  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
> > wrote:
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > > Hi,
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find
> on the
> > > > >  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
> > > little hard
> > > > >  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to
> start.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry,
although it
> > > might be
> > > > >  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some
> general
> > > > >  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
> > > too long
> > > > >  > > for anyone to read).
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is
> > that to
> > > > >  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
> > > alot of sea
> > > > >  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
> > > required?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > > epoxy/graphite
> > > > >  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot
> > around
> > > > >  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did
get in
> > > > >  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no
> > harm
> > > > >  > would be done to the mast.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to
have any
> > > safety
> > > > >  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
> > > in heavy
> > > > >  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.
> There
> > > > >  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef.
> Is it
> > > > >  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it
then.
> > > Or are
> > > > >  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> > "normal" cat?
> > > > >  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
> > > sail and
> > > > >  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the
> > boat
> > > > >  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a
> > little
> > > > >  more?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the
> > sheet.
> > > > >  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not
to get
> > > hit by
> > > > >  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > > athwartships,
> > > > >  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> > > weathervane,
> > > > >  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> > > sheeted fore
> > > > >  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
> > > wrong way
> > > > >  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more
> > questions.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of
> > the US
> > > > >  that
> > > > >  > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > > professionally.
> > > > >  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the
> > boats
> > > > >  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through
> > windward
> > > > >  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that
it has
> > > sailed
> > > > >  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I
have. The
> > > > >  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
> > > estimate,
> > > > >  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the
> painting
> > > > >  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George
> Marks. He
> > > > >  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
> grateful for
> > > > >  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that
> it is
> > > > >  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still
> > rotate 360
> > > > >  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
> > > mast can
> > > > >  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same
direction
> > > > >  endlessly?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They
are not
> > > worth
> > > > >  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
> > > Amongst
> > > > >  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None
> > of the
> > > > >  > current designs has stays.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of
downwind
> > > sail?
> > > > >  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front
of the
> > > boom
> > > > >  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to
the back
> > > end of
> > > > >  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is
> > best
> > > > >  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
> > > when the
> > > > >  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of
> > Blind Date
> > > > >  (the
> > > > >  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a
> polar
> > > > >  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of
speed
> > > under
> > > > >  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds
and sea
> > > states?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > > >  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
> > > reaches at
> > > > >  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not
right
> > > > >  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can
see, no
> > > one is
> > > > >  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
> > > lighter,
> > > > >  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the
water
> > > in a
> > > > >  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I
hope.
> > > There
> > > > >  > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > > >  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that
> > this is
> > > > >  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
> > > moment.
> > > > >  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
> > > it blows
> > > > >  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
> > > compared
> > > > >  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless
hulls, the
> > > > >  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa
platform.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
> > > lifts to
> > > > >  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely,
> > except
> > > > >  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to
> > build a
> > > > >  boat.
> > > > >  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
> > > AU) and
> > > > >  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a
> > budgetary
> > > > >  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> > > Assuming I am
> > > > >  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
> > > can I jst
> > > > >  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a
number?
> > > What
> > > > >  > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by
Australian
> > > > >  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
> expensive
> > > > >  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > > > >  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the
> > Caribbean
> > > > >  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour
> > rates are
> > > > >  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
> > > issues to
> > > > >  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to
> > ensure high
> > > > >  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
> hours and
> > > > >  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the
interior will
> > > be far
> > > > >  > quicker to install.
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone
replies to
> > > this, I
> > > > >  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Keep 'em coming!
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > regards,
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  > Rob Denney
> > > > >  > www.harryproa.com
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > - Gardner
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I am very curious about this design. If you are at all familiar with
the Maine Cat 30, the best feature is that it has an open bridgedeck
that is 8x11'. You spend all your time above. The only reason you go
below decks is the head, the galley and the bunks. Instead of an
enclosed salon, it has plastics that zip down, protecting you from the
weather when you need it, but being completely open most of the time.
I love that feel. There is a hardtop, but windage is kept down because
you usually have the plastics open in the tropics. Just close them for
rain or heavy seas.

If you go here: http://www.mecat.com/indexsail.htm and click on
MECAT30 on the left, you will see what I mean.

I feel like the proa has that potential. I am wrestling with trying to
figure out how to go from the Visionarry layout to an open bridgedeck
layout. I don't want a high walled saloon with all the windage, but I
also don't want to sleep and use the head out in the open.

- Gardner

--- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@> wrote:
>
> Hi Gardener
> Im the one Robs refering to re the family of  four liveaboard.For us
> it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living space for
> your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can enclose or
> make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the space
> seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in reference to the
>  separation of the sailing/living areas.
>
> The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was for a
> craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space, no need
> to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist the
> temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.
>
> We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide enough  but
> the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was tempted to )
>  youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling down hill
> getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on one
> level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling no doors
> ,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a quicker
> cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .
>
> Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not that
> much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the cost of
> living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was about
> haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area and the
> tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became one
> large living area.
>
> Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple of
> reasonable single sleepers and or storage.
>
> I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of people and
> maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations continually
> thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .
>
> Cheers Tim
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
> > mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> > liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
> > Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the payload
> > capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
> > not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and fridge/freezer. If
> > there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> > travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
> > payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
> >
> > Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> > version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
> > 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the schooner
> > rig concerns me for that.
> >
> > Back to general questions:
> >
> > Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed when
> > shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
> > version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> > switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around to the
> > otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about motorsailing? I
> > know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal on the
> > east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
> > with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always liked to
> > keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
> >
> > I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the mast
> > rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up around
> > the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
> > sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
> >
> > Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer questions.
> > I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never took
> > them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
> > >
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background
> to put
> > > >  my questions into context.
> > >
> > > snip
> > > >
> > > >  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like
it has
> > > >  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard
(although
> > > >  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a
> coastal
> > > >  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the
> caribbean.
> > > >  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > > >
> > > >  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it
> include
> > > >  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the
> sails?
> > > >  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> > >
> > > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> > > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom
rudders etc.
> > > >
> > > >  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have
> any 2D
> > > >  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
> > really
> > > >  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am
> concerned
> > > >  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
> dropping the
> > > >  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
> > out of
> > > >  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> > >
> > > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job.  The
table
> > > does not prevent access to the wheel.  I will forward the
dimensions.
> > > >
> > > >  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal
> breaker
> > > >  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
> > > >  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the
> best
> > > >  additions.
> > >
> > > No problem.
> > > >
> > > >  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull
in the
> > > >  galley, where do you put everything?
> > >
> > > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
> > > cruiser.  Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
> > > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.  This is a
> > > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> > > There is  huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > > readily accessible.  There are layout options to increase the
storage
> > > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
> > > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> > > >
> > > >  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa
> and a
> > > >  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have
designed. Are
> > > >  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative
build
> > > >  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> > >
> > > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.
  The
> > > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> > > more of them)  and it will be built in a low labour location.
The fit
> > > out of the saloon and ww hull is  also simpler and quicker.   The
> > > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> > > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> > > space, better light and ventilation and at the  same level as the
> > > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > > >
> > > >  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If
you are
> > > >  willing to, my email is gardner@
> > >
> > > Will do.  Anyone else wanting them, let me know.  They are not of
> > > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
> > > but will give you an idea of what is possible.   They will be on the
> > > web page real soon now ........
> > > >
> > > >  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the
> boat in
> > > >  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
> > how it
> > > >  went.
> > >
> > > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> > > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
> > > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> > > >
> > > >  - What is the mast height off the water?
> > >
> > > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> > little lower.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Rob
> > > >
> > > >  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
> wrote:
> > > >  >
> > > >  > G'day,
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep
them
> > > >  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > > >  >
> > > >  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
> wrote:
> > > >  >
> > > >  > > Hi,
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find
on the
> > > >  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
> > little hard
> > > >  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to
start.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
> > might be
> > > >  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some
general
> > > >  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
> > too long
> > > >  > > for anyone to read).
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is
> that to
> > > >  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
> > alot of sea
> > > >  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
> > required?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> > epoxy/graphite
> > > >  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot
> around
> > > >  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> > > >  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no
> harm
> > > >  > would be done to the mast.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
> > safety
> > > >  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
> > in heavy
> > > >  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > > >  >
> > > >  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.
There
> > > >  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef.
Is it
> > > >  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
> > Or are
> > > >  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
> "normal" cat?
> > > >  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
> > sail and
> > > >  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the
> boat
> > > >  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a
> little
> > > >  more?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the
> sheet.
> > > >  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
> > hit by
> > > >  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> > athwartships,
> > > >  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> > weathervane,
> > > >  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> > sheeted fore
> > > >  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
> > wrong way
> > > >  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more
> questions.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of
> the US
> > > >  that
> > > >  > > I might actually see one in person?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> > professionally.
> > > >  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the
> boats
> > > >  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through
> windward
> > > >  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
> > sailed
> > > >  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> > > >  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
> > estimate,
> > > >  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the
painting
> > > >  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George
Marks. He
> > > >  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very
grateful for
> > > >  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that
it is
> > > >  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still
> rotate 360
> > > >  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
> > mast can
> > > >  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
> > > >  endlessly?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
> > worth
> > > >  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
> > Amongst
> > > >  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None
> of the
> > > >  > current designs has stays.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
> > sail?
> > > >  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
> > boom
> > > >  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
> > end of
> > > >  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is
> best
> > > >  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
> > when the
> > > >  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of
> Blind Date
> > > >  (the
> > > >  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a
polar
> > > >  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
> > under
> > > >  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
> > states?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > > >  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
> > reaches at
> > > >  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> > > >  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
> > one is
> > > >  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
> > lighter,
> > > >  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
> > in a
> > > >  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
> > There
> > > >  > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > > >  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that
> this is
> > > >  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
> > moment.
> > > >  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
> > it blows
> > > >  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
> > compared
> > > >  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> > > >  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> > > >  >
> > > >  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
> > lifts to
> > > >  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely,
> except
> > > >  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to
> build a
> > > >  boat.
> > > >  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
> > AU) and
> > > >  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a
> budgetary
> > > >  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> > Assuming I am
> > > >  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
> > can I jst
> > > >  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
> > What
> > > >  > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > > >  >
> > > >  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> > > >  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very
expensive
> > > >  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > > >  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the
> Caribbean
> > > >  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour
> rates are
> > > >  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
> > issues to
> > > >  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to
> ensure high
> > > >  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer
hours and
> > > >  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
> > be far
> > > >  > quicker to install.
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
> > this, I
> > > >  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Keep 'em coming!
> > > >  >
> > > >  > regards,
> > > >  >
> > > >  > Rob Denney
> > > >  > www.harryproa.com
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > - Gardner
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > >
> > > >  >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

--- In harryproa@..., "gardner.pomper" <gardner@...> wrote:

Hi Gardener
Im the one Robs refering to re the family of  four liveaboard.For us
it wasnt so much a question of carrying capacity as living space for
your dollar. With the proa design within reason you can enclose or
make available a fair amount of space and the quality of the space
seems to be greater than on a comparable cat ,this in reference to the
  separation of the sailing/living areas.

The whole philosophy behind the initial approach to Rob was for a
craft where the hulls were just that hulls, not living space, no need
to line them ,whatever would fit in them fine but to resist the
temptation at all costs to "add just a bit" more room below.

We could put some sleeping accom below, the ww hulls wide enough  but
the minuite you do that(and after seeing the space i was tempted to )
  youve just pushed the snowball off the edge and its rolling down hill
getting bigger heavier and more complex. Keep it simple and on one
level and as i said before no lining,no hiding piping/cabling no doors
,no windows just tankage and storage in the ww hull = a quicker
cheaper build, and for me thats a biggie .

Having said that add a bit more time and money (probably not that
much) and you can fit out the hull for sleeping but at the cost of
living space above. But for us here in the tropics it was about
haveing an open plan where the lines between the saloon area and the
tramp/ deck area blurred and with the addition of shade became one
large living area.

Plus having the scooner rig in the lw hull allows for a couple of
reasonable single sleepers and or storage.

I think this design could be a lot of things to a lot of people and
maybe addresses a lot of the percieved space limitations continually
thrown up in cat/ proa comparisons .

Cheers Tim
>
> Hi,
>
> I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
> mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
> liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
> Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the payload
> capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
> not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and fridge/freezer. If
> there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
> travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
> payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.
>
> Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
> version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
> 2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the schooner
> rig concerns me for that.
>
> Back to general questions:
>
> Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed when
> shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
> version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
> switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around to the
> otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about motorsailing? I
> know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal on the
> east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
> with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always liked to
> keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.
>
> I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the mast
> rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up around
> the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
> sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?
>
> Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer questions.
> I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never took
> them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.
>
> - Gardner
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background
to put
> > >  my questions into context.
> >
> > snip
> > >
> > >  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
> > >  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
> > >  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a
coastal
> > >  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the
caribbean.
> > >  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> > >
> > >  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it
include
> > >  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the
sails?
> > >  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
> >
> > Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> > safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
> > >
> > >  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have
any 2D
> > >  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
> really
> > >  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am
concerned
> > >  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without
dropping the
> > >  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
> out of
> > >  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
> >
> > The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job.  The table
> > does not prevent access to the wheel.  I will forward the dimensions.
> > >
> > >  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal
breaker
> > >  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
> > >  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the
best
> > >  additions.
> >
> > No problem.
> > >
> > >  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
> > >  galley, where do you put everything?
> >
> > Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
> > cruiser.  Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
> > not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.  This is a
> > good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> > There is  huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> > readily accessible.  There are layout options to increase the storage
> > space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
> > of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> > >
> > >  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa
and a
> > >  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
> > >  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
> > >  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
> >
> > It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.  The
> > build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> > more of them)  and it will be built in a low labour location.  The fit
> > out of the saloon and ww hull is  also simpler and quicker.   The
> > cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> > hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> > space, better light and ventilation and at the  same level as the
> > bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> > >
> > >  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
> > >  willing to, my email is gardner@
> >
> > Will do.  Anyone else wanting them, let me know.  They are not of
> > particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
> > but will give you an idea of what is possible.   They will be on the
> > web page real soon now ........
> > >
> > >  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the
boat in
> > >  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
> how it
> > >  went.
> >
> > Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> > questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
> > you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> > >
> > >  - What is the mast height off the water?
> >
> > 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
> little lower.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> > >
> > >  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@>
wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > G'day,
> > >  >
> > >  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> > >  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> > >  >
> > >  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@>
wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > > Hi,
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > >  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
> little hard
> > >  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
> might be
> > >  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > >  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
> too long
> > >  > > for anyone to read).
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is
that to
> > >  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
> alot of sea
> > >  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
> required?
> > >  >
> > >  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
> epoxy/graphite
> > >  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot
around
> > >  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> > >  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no
harm
> > >  > would be done to the mast.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
> safety
> > >  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
> in heavy
> > >  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> > >  >
> > >  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> > >  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > >  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
> Or are
> > >  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a
"normal" cat?
> > >  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
> sail and
> > >  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the
boat
> > >  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a
little
> > >  more?
> > >  >
> > >  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the
sheet.
> > >  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
> hit by
> > >  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
> athwartships,
> > >  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
> weathervane,
> > >  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
> sheeted fore
> > >  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
> wrong way
> > >  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more
questions.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of
the US
> > >  that
> > >  > > I might actually see one in person?
> > >  >
> > >  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
> professionally.
> > >  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the
boats
> > >  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through
windward
> > >  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
> sailed
> > >  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> > >  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
> estimate,
> > >  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> > >  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> > >  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> > >  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > >  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still
rotate 360
> > >  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
> mast can
> > >  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
> > >  endlessly?
> > >  >
> > >  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
> worth
> > >  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
> Amongst
> > >  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None
of the
> > >  > current designs has stays.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
> sail?
> > >  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> > >  >
> > >  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
> boom
> > >  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
> end of
> > >  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is
best
> > >  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
> when the
> > >  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of
Blind Date
> > >  (the
> > >  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > >  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
> under
> > >  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
> states?
> > >  >
> > >  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> > >  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
> reaches at
> > >  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> > >  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
> one is
> > >  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
> lighter,
> > >  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
> in a
> > >  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
> There
> > >  > are some pictures and videos of it at
> > >  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that
this is
> > >  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
> moment.
> > >  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
> it blows
> > >  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
> compared
> > >  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> > >  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> > >  >
> > >  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
> lifts to
> > >  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely,
except
> > >  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to
build a
> > >  boat.
> > >  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
> AU) and
> > >  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a
budgetary
> > >  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
> Assuming I am
> > >  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
> can I jst
> > >  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
> What
> > >  > > would $xxx/hr be?
> > >  >
> > >  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> > >  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> > >  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> > >  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the
Caribbean
> > >  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour
rates are
> > >  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
> issues to
> > >  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to
ensure high
> > >  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> > >  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
> be far
> > >  > quicker to install.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
> this, I
> > >  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> > >  >
> > >  > Keep 'em coming!
> > >  >
> > >  > regards,
> > >  >
> > >  > Rob Denney
> > >  > www.harryproa.com
> > >  > >
> > >  > > - Gardner
> > >  > >
> > >  > >
> > >  >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi,

I got the renderings of the charter version. In that message, you
mentioned that you were doing a 50' version for a family of 4
liveaboard. I think that sounds very much what I have in mind. The
Visionarry is also considered a 50', correct? Because the payload
capacity there is aproximately what I think I need, although I have
not added up the exact weights of a stove/oven and fridge/freezer. If
there is anything you can send me on that, it would be great. We
travel pretty light, in that we has fun on a 30' cat with a 2000lb
payload, so I think a 3700-4000 lb payload would be ok with us.

Essentially, I have questions on being able to afford the larger
version, and we will be just a couple, with (hopefully) many guests,
2-4 at a time. I would like to be able to singlehand and the schooner
rig concerns me for that.

Back to general questions:

Has something been written up on all the actions to be performed when
shunting? I have seen the video of the elementary, but in a larger
version (Visonarry, or equivalent), how exactly are the rudders
switch? Do you have to "switch" the wheels, or just walk around to the
otherh side and start using the 2nd wheel? What about motorsailing? I
know it has been mentioned that you don't, but the Intracoastal on the
east coast of the US has many areas where you can sail, interspersed
with short switchbacks that make it difficult. We have always liked to
keep the sails up when when have to suffer through these.

I am also confused about how the lines run to the mast. With the mast
rotating 360 degrees, I would think that the lines just wind up around
the mast. Is there just a single "boom sheet" for each direction you
sail? The halyards tie off to the boom or mast?

Thanks very much for all the time you are taking to answer questions.
I had looked a proas before but until I saw your designs I never took
them seriously. Now they look REALLY good.

- Gardner

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
> >  my questions into context.
>
> snip
> >
> >  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
> >  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
> >  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
> >  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
> >  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
> >
> >  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
> >  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
> >  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?
>
> Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
> safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
> >
> >  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
> >  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We
really
> >  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
> >  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
> >  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model
out of
> >  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.
>
> The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job.  The table
> does not prevent access to the wheel.  I will forward the dimensions.
> >
> >  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
> >  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
> >  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
> >  additions.
>
> No problem.
> >
> >  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
> >  galley, where do you put everything?
>
> Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
> cruiser.  Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
> not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.  This is a
> good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
> There is  huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
> readily accessible.  There are layout options to increase the storage
> space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
> of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
> >
> >  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
> >  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
> >  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
> >  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?
>
> It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.  The
> build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
> more of them)  and it will be built in a low labour location.  The fit
> out of the saloon and ww hull is  also simpler and quicker.   The
> cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
> hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
> space, better light and ventilation and at the  same level as the
> bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
> >
> >  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
> >  willing to, my email is gardner@...
>
> Will do.  Anyone else wanting them, let me know.  They are not of
> particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
> but will give you an idea of what is possible.   They will be on the
> web page real soon now ........
> >
> >  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
> >  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to
how it
> >  went.
>
> Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
> questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
> you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
> >
> >  - What is the mast height off the water?
>
> 18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a
little lower.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
> >
> >  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > G'day,
> >  >
> >  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> >  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
> >  >
> >  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > > Hi,
> >  > >
> >  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> >  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very
little hard
> >  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> >  > >
> >  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it
might be
> >  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> >  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be
too long
> >  > > for anyone to read).
> >  > >
> >  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> >  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to
alot of sea
> >  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance
required?
> >  >
> >  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and
epoxy/graphite
> >  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> >  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> >  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> >  > would be done to the mast.
> >  > >
> >  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any
safety
> >  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef
in heavy
> >  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
> >  >
> >  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> >  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> >  > >
> >  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> >  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then.
Or are
> >  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> >  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the
sail and
> >  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> >  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
> >  more?
> >  >
> >  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> >  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get
hit by
> >  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked
athwartships,
> >  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a
weathervane,
> >  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be
sheeted fore
> >  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the
wrong way
> >  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> >  > >
> >  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
> >  that
> >  > > I might actually see one in person?
> >  >
> >  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built
professionally.
> >  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> >  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> >  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has
sailed
> >  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> >  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price
estimate,
> >  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> >  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> >  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> >  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> >  > >
> >  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> >  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> >  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the
mast can
> >  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
> >  endlessly?
> >  >
> >  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not
worth
> >  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.
Amongst
> >  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> >  > current designs has stays.
> >  > >
> >  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind
sail?
> >  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
> >  >
> >  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the
boom
> >  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back
end of
> >  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> >  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even
when the
> >  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> >  > >
> >  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
> >  (the
> >  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> >  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed
under
> >  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea
states?
> >  >
> >  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> >  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird
reaches at
> >  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> >  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no
one is
> >  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably
lighter,
> >  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water
in a
> >  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.
There
> >  > are some pictures and videos of it at
> >  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
> >  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the
moment.
> >  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder
it blows
> >  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform,
compared
> >  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> >  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> >  > >
> >  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
> >  >
> >  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull
lifts to
> >  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> >  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
> >  > >
> >  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
> >  boat.
> >  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K
AU) and
> >  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> >  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat?
Assuming I am
> >  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work,
can I jst
> >  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number?
What
> >  > > would $xxx/hr be?
> >  >
> >  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> >  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> >  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> >  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> >  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> >  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality
issues to
> >  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> >  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> >  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will
be far
> >  > quicker to install.
> >  > >
> >  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to
this, I
> >  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
> >  >
> >  > Keep 'em coming!
> >  >
> >  > regards,
> >  >
> >  > Rob Denney
> >  > www.harryproa.com
> >  > >
> >  > > - Gardner
> >  > >
> >  > >
> >  >
> >
> >
>

G'day,


On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 9:11 PM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
>  my questions into context.

snip
>
>  When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
>  enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
>  more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
>  cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
>  So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.
>
>  - I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
>  "built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
>  (Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

Empty weight includes everything required to go for a sail except
safety gear. No built ins or motors, but mast sails, boom rudders etc.
>
>  - I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
>  layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
>  loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
>  that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
>  table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
>  balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

The saloon in Rare Bird is a bit cramped, but does the job.  The table
does not prevent access to the wheel.  I will forward the dimensions.
>
>  - Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
>  on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
>  managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
>  additions.

No problem.
>
>  - What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
>  galley, where do you put everything?

Visionarry was not designed to be a live aboard, or even an extended
cruiser.  Rare Bird was modified to make it the latter, but it does
not have huge amounts of storage space for living aboard.  This is a
good way of keeping the weight down, but won't impress your wife!
There is  huge amounts of space in the lee hull but this is not
readily accessible.  There are layout options to increase the storage
space, which I am happy to discuss, but if you want all the comforts
of home and performance, then the bigger boat is a better bet..
>
>  - My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
>  cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
>  sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
>  cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

It should be closer to half for the basic structure and fit out.  The
build method is quicker, the materials cheaper (although there are
more of them)  and it will be built in a low labour location.  The fit
out of the saloon and ww hull is  also simpler and quicker.   The
cabins are as private as they are on a cat, but the ones in the ww
hull are much more user friendly with walk around beds, more floor
space, better light and ventilation and at the  same level as the
bridgedeck, with easier access to it.
>
>  I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
>  willing to, my email is gardner@....

Will do.  Anyone else wanting them, let me know.  They are not of
particularly high standard as they are for discussion purposes only,
but will give you an idea of what is possible.   They will be on the
web page real soon now ........
>
>  Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
>  Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
>  went.

Say hello to George for me (perhaps after you have asked all your
questions, in case he still thinks we tried to rip him off and sends
you packing ;-)) and please take some photos and report back here.
>
>  - What is the mast height off the water?

18m/60', although the charter boat will be a schooner rig so a little lower.

regards,

Rob
>
>  --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > G'day,
>  >
>  > Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
>  > coming. My answers follow your questions.
>  >
>  > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi,
>  > >
>  > > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
>  > > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
>  > > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
>  > >
>  > > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
>  > > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
>  > > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
>  > > for anyone to read).
>  > >
>  > > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
>  > > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
>  > > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>  >
>  > Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
>  > inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
>  > the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
>  > there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
>  > would be done to the mast.
>  > >
>  > > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
>  > > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
>  > > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>  >
>  > The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
>  > should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>  > >
>  > > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
>  > > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
>  > > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
>  > > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
>  > > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
>  > > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
>  more?
>  >
>  > Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
>  > Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
>  > the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
>  > which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
>  > keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
>  > and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
>  > is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
>  > >
>  > > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
>  that
>  > > I might actually see one in person?
>  >
>  > There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
>  > It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
>  > anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
>  > hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
>  > at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
>  > owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
>  > despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
>  > and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
>  > was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
>  > feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
>  > >
>  > > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
>  > > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
>  > > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
>  > > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
>  endlessly?
>  >
>  > I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
>  > the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
>  > other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
>  > current designs has stays.
>  > >
>  > > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
>  > > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>  >
>  > Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
>  > and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
>  > the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
>  > as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
>  > breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
>  > >
>  > > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
>  (the
>  > > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
>  > > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
>  > > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>  >
>  > The best indication of the boats' potential is at
>  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
>  > wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
>  > (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
>  > trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
>  > with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
>  > month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
>  > are some pictures and videos of it at
>  > http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
>  > not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
>  > Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
>  > and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
>  > to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
>  > flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
>  > >
>  > > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>  >
>  > 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
>  > the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
>  > when motoring straight into big waves. .
>  > >
>  > > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
>  boat.
>  > > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
>  > > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
>  > > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
>  > > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
>  > > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
>  > > would $xxx/hr be?
>  >
>  > $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
>  > standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
>  > compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
>  > talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
>  > and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
>  > much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
>  > overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
>  > quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
>  > lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
>  > quicker to install.
>  > >
>  > > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
>  > > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>  >
>  > Keep 'em coming!
>  >
>  > regards,
>  >
>  > Rob Denney
>  > www.harryproa.com
>  > >
>  > > - Gardner
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>
>

Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
my questions into context.

I bought a Maine Cat 30 catamaran and took a year off to "try out"
cruising with my family. We loved the open bridgedeck and it sailed
well, considering how overloaded it was. We loved cruising, and wanted
to do it again by now, while my daughter is in middle school, but
finances will force us to wait till she leaves home in 5 years.

We found that a 30 foot cat just did not have the payload capacity to
be a liveaboard. (Could not add freezer, generator, etc and we were
already overloaded) I figure that crew, fluids (water,gas,propane),
ground tackle, etc add about 2000 lbs to a boat before provisioning,
personal effects, etc. I have pestered Maine Cat for a 35' cat for
years, but they ignore me <grin>.

When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.

- I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
"built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
(Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

- I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

- Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
additions.

- What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
galley, where do you put everything?

- My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
willing to, my email is gardner@networknow.org.

Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
went.

- What is the mast height off the water?

--- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> coming. My answers follow your questions.
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> > harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
> > info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> >
> > I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
> > a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> > questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
> > for anyone to read).
> >
> > I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> > binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
> > spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>
> Very little. The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
> inner shells. Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> the mast covering the top one. If any salt (or grit) did get in
> there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> would be done to the mast.
> >
> > Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
> > equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
> > seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>
> The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck. There
> should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> >
> > I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> > pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
> > you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> > Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
> > then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> > easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
more?
>
> Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
> the boom. The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
> which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
> keeping the boat beam to. There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
> and aft with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
> is very difficult. If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> >
> > Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
that
> > I might actually see one in person?
>
> There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
> It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> hull, 50 hp outboard) . Second hand information is that it has sailed
> at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have. The
> owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
> despite nearly going broke trying. he had to finish the painting
> and some of the fitting out himself. His name is George Marks. He
> was the harbour master at Rockport. I would be very grateful for
> feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> >
> > I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> > freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> > degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
> > rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
endlessly?
>
> I tried various staying setups on the prototypes. They are not worth
> the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither. Amongst
> other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees. None of the
> current designs has stays.
> >
> > For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
> > Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>
> Pretty easy if required. I use an extension to the front of the boom
> and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
> the boom. Not ideal, but it works. A large genoa type sail is best
> as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
> breeze is aft. For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> >
> > I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
(the
> > only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> > diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
> > different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>
> The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA where Rare Bird reaches at
> wind speed on it's first decent voyage. The sails are not right
> (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
> trying very hard to sail it fast. Blind Date is considerably lighter,
> with a stiffer mast and better sails. It goes back in the water in a
> month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope. There
> are some pictures and videos of it at
> http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html I appreciate that this is
> not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
> Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
> and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
> to conventional cats. This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> >
> > What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>
> 6-900 mm/ 24-36". It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
> the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> when motoring straight into big waves. .
> >
> > Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
boat.
> > I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
> > build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> > number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
> > willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
> > multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
> > would $xxx/hr be?
>
> $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate. Moderate by Australian
> standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> compared to low labour cost countries' rates. I am currently
> talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa. Their labour rates are
> much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
> overcome. I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> quality. This boat's hulls and beams will be far fewer hours and
> lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
> quicker to install.
> >
> > Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
> > am likely to post more questions <grin>
>
> Keep 'em coming!
>
> regards,
>
> Rob Denney
> www.harryproa.com
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> >
>

Thanks for the quick reply. Let me give you a brief background to put
my questions into context.

I bought a Maine Cat 30 catamaran and took a year off to "try out"
cruising with my family. We loved the open bridgedeck and it sailed
well, considering how overloaded it was. We loved cruising, and wanted
to do it again by now, while my daughter is in middle school, but
finances will force us to wait till she leaves home in 5 years.

We found that a 30 foot cat just did not have the payload capacity to
be a liveaboard.  (Could not add freezer, generator, etc and we were
already overloaded) I figure that crew, fluids (water,gas,propane),
ground tackle, etc add about 2000 lbs to a boat before provisioning,
personal effects, etc. I have pestered Maine Cat for a 35' cat for
years, but they ignore me <grin>.

When I came across the harryproa, the Visionarry seems like it has
enough payload capacity for a cruising couple/liveaboard (although
more is better). We are not adventurers; we are looking for a coastal
cruiser/island hopper for North and South America and the caribbean.
So, my questions here are primarily focused on Visionarry.

- I am assuming the empty weight is completely empty? Does it include
"built ins" like the stove, fridge, batteries? What about the sails?
(Mast is included, hopefully). What about engines?

- I can't picture what the saloon is really like. Do you have any 2D
layout drawings (like for the harryproa) that I can look at? We really
loved the 8x11' open bridgedeck on the Maine Cat, and I am concerned
that you can't walk from the galley to the wheel without dropping the
table in the saloon. I am thinking about carving a simple model out of
balsa wood to get the dimensions in my head.

- Can a stove with an oven be fitted? This was almost a deal breaker
on the Maine Cat, as the designer did not want to add one, but he
managed and the people who know the boats say it was one of the best
additions.

- What about storage? Other than the cabinets along the hull in the
galley, where do you put everything?

- My wife is concerned about the loss of privacy between a proa and a
cat. I have seen you mention a charter proa you have designed. Are
sketches available for that? What do you expect the relative build
cost to be between teh Visionarry and the charter? Double?

I have seen you offer to email sketches on other groups. If you are
willing to, my email is gardner@....

Now I am off to book a trip to Maine <grin> to check out the boat in
Rock Harbor. Hopefully you will hear back from me in Sept as to how it
went.

- What is the mast height off the water?

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> Welcome to the forum.  Thanks for the questions, please keep them
> coming.  My answers follow your questions.
>
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> >  I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
> >  harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
> >  info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
> >
> >  I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
> >  a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
> >  questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
> >  for anyone to read).
> >
> >  I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
> >  binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
> >  spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?
>
> Very little.  The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
> inner shells.  Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
> the mast covering the top one.  If any salt (or grit) did get in
> there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
> would be done to the mast.
> >
> >  Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
> >  equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
> >  seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.
>
> The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.  There
> should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
> >
> >  I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
> >  pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
> >  you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
> >  Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
> >  then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
> >  easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little
more?
>
> Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
> Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
> the boom.  The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
> which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
> keeping the boat beam to.  There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
> and aft  with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
> is very difficult.   If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
> >
> >  Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US
that
> >  I might actually see one in person?
>
> There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
> It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
> anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
> hull, 50 hp outboard) .  Second hand information is that it has sailed
>  at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have.   The
> owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
> despite nearly going broke trying.    he had to finish the painting
> and some of the fitting out himself.  His name is George Marks.  He
> was the harbour master at Rockport.  I would be very grateful for
> feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
> >
> >  I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
> >  freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
> >  degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
> >  rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction
endlessly?
>
> I tried various staying setups on the prototypes.  They are not worth
> the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.  Amongst
> other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees.  None of the
> current designs has stays.
> >
> >  For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
> >  Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?
>
> Pretty easy if required.  I use an extension to the front of the boom
> and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
> the boom.  Not ideal, but it works.  A large genoa type sail is best
> as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
> breeze is aft.   For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
> >
> >  I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date
(the
> >  only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
> >  diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
> >  different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?
>
> The best indication of the boats' potential is at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA  where Rare Bird reaches at
>  wind speed on it's first decent voyage.  The sails are not right
> (small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
> trying very hard to sail it fast.  Blind Date is considerably lighter,
> with a stiffer mast and better sails.  It goes back in the water in a
> month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.  There
> are some pictures and videos of it at
> http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html   I appreciate that this is
> not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
> Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
> and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
> to conventional cats.  This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
> flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
> >
> >  What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)
>
> 6-900 mm/ 24-36".  It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
> the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
> when motoring straight into big waves.  .
> >
> >  Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a
boat.
> >  I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
> >  build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
> >  number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
> >  willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
> >  multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
> >  would $xxx/hr be?
>
> $AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate.  Moderate by Australian
> standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
> compared to low labour cost countries' rates.     I am currently
> talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
> and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa.  Their labour rates are
> much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
> overcome.  I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
> quality.    This boat's hulls and beams  will be far fewer hours and
> lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
> quicker to install.
> >
> >  Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
> >  am likely to post more questions <grin>
>
> Keep 'em coming!
>
> regards,
>
> Rob Denney
> www.harryproa.com
> >
> >  - Gardner
> >
> >
>

Congratulations. I'll be interested in your progress,
  Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@>
> wrote:
> >OOPs  Before anyone says anything ,make that 15mtr leeward and 12mtr
> windward hull.
> Cheers Tim
>
>
> > Hi all
> > Just like to say g'day , i've been wandering around this site and a
> > few other multihull sites for a few years but gradually have been
> > coming back more and more often to this and other proa based sites.
> >
> > Have been exchanging a few emails with Rob and will be going ahead
> > with a 15mtr ww/ 12 mtr lw hull model based on a scaled down version
> > of the charter Proa with all the living areas on the one (saloon )
> > level and only storage and tankage in the ww hull (2x pipe cots in the
> > leeward).
> >
> > Hope to start the build early next year (after the wet season in far
> > north Queensland) and have a shell by the end of the year, but of
> > course this may end up being wildly optimistic time will tell.
> >
> > The plan is that once its built my working life will come to a
> > screeching halt and family and i will sail off into the sunset and
> > live happily ever after.We hope!
> >
> > So you will all hear a fair bit from me in the coming months as i hope
> > to start taking in the discussions and hopefully ill learn a thing
> or two.
> >
> > Cheers Tim
> >
>

--- In harryproa@..., "Tim Barker" <clairebarker5@...>
wrote:
>OOPs  Before anyone says anything ,make that 15mtr leeward and 12mtr
windward hull.
Cheers Tim


> Hi all
> Just like to say g'day , i've been wandering around this site and a
> few other multihull sites for a few years but gradually have been
> coming back more and more often to this and other proa based sites.
>
> Have been exchanging a few emails with Rob and will be going ahead
> with a 15mtr ww/ 12 mtr lw hull model based on a scaled down version
> of the charter Proa with all the living areas on the one (saloon )
> level and only storage and tankage in the ww hull (2x pipe cots in the
> leeward).
>
> Hope to start the build early next year (after the wet season in far
> north Queensland) and have a shell by the end of the year, but of
> course this may end up being wildly optimistic time will tell.
>
> The plan is that once its built my working life will come to a
> screeching halt and family and i will sail off into the sunset and
> live happily ever after.We hope!
>
> So you will all hear a fair bit from me in the coming months as i hope
> to start taking in the discussions and hopefully ill learn a thing
or two.
>
> Cheers Tim
>

Hi all
Just like to say g'day , i've been wandering around this site and a
few other multihull sites for a few years but gradually have been
coming back more and more often to this and other proa based sites.

Have been exchanging a few emails with Rob and will be going ahead
with a 15mtr ww/ 12 mtr lw hull model based on a scaled down version
of the charter Proa with all the living areas on the one (saloon )
level and only storage and tankage in the ww hull (2x pipe cots in the
leeward).

Hope to start the build early next year (after the wet season in far
north Queensland) and have a shell by the end of the year, but of
course this may end up being wildly optimistic time will tell.

The plan is that once its built my working life will come to a
screeching halt and family and i will sail off into the sunset and
live happily ever after.We hope!

So you will all hear a fair bit from me in the coming months as i hope
to start taking in the discussions and hopefully ill learn a thing or two.

Cheers Tim

G'day,

Welcome to the forum.  Thanks for the questions, please keep them
coming.  My answers follow your questions.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:41 AM, gardner.pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>  I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
>  harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
>  info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.
>
>  I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
>  a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
>  questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
>  for anyone to read).
>
>  I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
>  binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
>  spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?

Very little.  The bearings are plastic outer shells and epoxy/graphite
inner shells.  Water cannot get into them as there is a boot around
the mast covering the top one.  If any salt (or grit) did get in
there, it would probably become embedded in the plastic so no harm
would be done to the mast.
>
>  Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
>  equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
>  seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.

The intention is to do all mast work from the bridge deck.  There
should be no need to get on the lee hull deck at all.
>
>  I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
>  pointing perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
>  you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
>  Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
>  then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
>  easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little more?

Best way to reef is to go beam onto the seas and release the sheet.
Then wind down the reef as per normal, being careful not to get hit by
the boom.  The boom can be sheeted so that it is locked athwartships,
which makes this easier, and also lets the sail act as a weathervane,
keeping the boat beam to.  There is no way the rig can be sheeted fore
and aft  with the wind from the wrong side, so capsizing the wrong way
is very difficult.   If this is not clear, please ask more questions.
>
>  Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US that
>  I might actually see one in person?

There is one in Maine that was the first one we built professionally.
It is used as a recreational sailer and a ferry boat for the boats
anchored in Rockport Bay and is non standard (walk through windward
hull, 50 hp outboard) .  Second hand information is that it has sailed
  at 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze, but that is all I have.   The
owner has not spoken to us since we could not meet our price estimate,
despite nearly going broke trying.    he had to finish the painting
and some of the fitting out himself.  His name is George Marks.  He
was the harbour master at Rockport.  I would be very grateful for
feedback from anyone who talks to him or sees the boat.
>
>  I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
>  freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
>  degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
>  rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction endlessly?

I tried various staying setups on the prototypes.  They are not worth
the effort on cruising boats, probably not on racers eiither.  Amongst
other drawbacks, the mast could not rotate 360 degrees.  None of the
current designs has stays.
>
>  For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
>  Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?

Pretty easy if required.  I use an extension to the front of the boom
and attach the tack of the extra to it and sheet it to the back end of
the boom.  Not ideal, but it works.  A large genoa type sail is best
as the rig is rotated so that it is always close hauled, even when the
breeze is aft.   For dead down wind, the boom is athwartships.
>
>  I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date (the
>  only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
>  diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
>  different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?

The best indication of the boats' potential is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8chR6DAFjGA  where Rare Bird reaches at
  wind speed on it's first decent voyage.  The sails are not right
(small job, no one has got round to it) and as you can see, no one is
trying very hard to sail it fast.  Blind Date is considerably lighter,
with a stiffer mast and better sails.  It goes back in the water in a
month or two and some more videos will be forthcoming, I hope.  There
are some pictures and videos of it at
http://www.zeilenmetvisie.nl/NL/home.html   I appreciate that this is
not the answer to your question, but it is all we have at the moment.
Based on my sailing on the (very rough) prototypes the harder it blows
and the rougher it gets, the better the boats will perform, compared
to conventional cats.  This is due to the rockerless hulls, the
flexible mast and the lower windage of the harryproa platform.
>
>  What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)

6-900 mm/ 24-36".  It can be less at the ww hull as the hull lifts to
the waves making impact wioth the beam or floor less likely, except
when motoring straight into big waves.  .
>
>  Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a boat.
>  I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
>  build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
>  number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
>  willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
>  multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
>  would $xxx/hr be?

$AUS72 per hour was our charge out rate.  Moderate by Australian
standards, cheap by European and US standards and very expensive
compared to low labour cost countries' rates.     I am currently
talking to builders from South America, South Africa, the Caribbean
and eastern Europe about a 60' charter proa.  Their labour rates are
much lower, as are overheads, although there may be quality issues to
overcome.  I intend to be on site for the first build to ensure high
quality.    This boat's hulls and beams  will be far fewer hours and
lighter than the strip planked equivalent and the interior will be far
quicker to install.
>
>  Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
>  am likely to post more questions <grin>

Keep 'em coming!

regards,

Rob Denney
www.harryproa.com
>
>  - Gardner
>
>

G'day,

You ain't the only one!  Nothing to report, unfortunately.  The mast
shop is slowly coming together, the mast is the first thing they will
be building.  When, I am not sure.

regards,

Rob

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 10:05 AM, captian_rapscallion
<captian_rapscallion@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  I was hoping to get an update on the telescoping mast project. I'm
>  really interested...
>
>

Hi,

I have been searching the net for everything I can find on the
harryproas. They look VERY interesting, but there is very little hard
info, so I thought this group might be the best place to start.

I think that I am most interested in Visionarry, although it might be
a bit above my price range, but let me start with some general
questions (if i put all my questions in, the post would be too long
for anyone to read).

I am curious about the rotating mast. How susceptible is that to
binding, or sea salt crusting, etc? If you are subject to alot of sea
spray and have limited fresh water, what is the maintenance required?

Again with the mast.. none of the harryproas seem to have any safety
equipment to keep you on the boat for when you need to reef in heavy
seas. THat leeward hull looks pretty narrow.

I am not clear on the position of the mast when you reef. Is it
pointing  perpendicular to the proa? You can't reach it then. Or are
you supposed to turn the boat into the wind, like a "normal" cat?
Doesn't that take the risk of the wind getting behind the sail and
then the leeward hull becomes the windward hull, making the boat
easier to capsize? Can someone explain the boat handling a little more?

Are there any harryproas in the water on the east coast of the US that
I might actually see one in person?

I have seen mention of a stay on the mast, but also that it is
freestanding. Is the stay optional? Can the mast still rotate 360
degrees with the stay? Are there any stops on how far the mast can
rotate, or can you just keep turning it in the same direction endlessly?

For very light airs, can you easily rig some sort of downwind sail?
Genniker, cruising spinaker, etc?

I have seen very little on the actual sailing speed of Blind Date (the
only boat I have heard that does frequent sailing). Has a polar
diagram been created? Or at least anecdotal readings of speed under
different points of sail, with different wind speeds and sea states?

What is the underwing clearance (Visionarry and Harryproa)

Finally, a big one. I will never have the time/talent to build a boat.
I have seen the stated materials costs for Visionarry ($80K AU) and
build time (4500 hours). How does this translate into a budgetary
number to see if I should even be looking at this boat? Assuming I am
willing to get it built anywhere that does excellent work, can I jst
multiply 4500 hours times $xxx/hr + $80K AU and get a number? What
would $xxx/hr be?

Thanks very much. I must warn you that if someone replies to this, I
am likely to post more questions <grin>

- Gardner

I was hoping to get an update on the telescoping mast project. I'm
really interested...

Dave Howorth sent me this, thank you:

>
> There are at least two 'classic' approaches:
>
> (1) Make a weak point in the daggerboard construction that
> is just below
> the hull when the board is down. If you hit something the
> board breaks
> off and floats away.
>
> (2) Make the rear wall of the daggerboard casing weaker
> with another
> angled wall behind it so there is a triangular volume and
> fill this with
> something crushable that will absorb energy (e.g. balsa).
> IIRC, Dick
> Newick was the first to use this.
>
> For rudders, some sort of pop-up arrangement or sacrificial
> blades.
>
> Cheers, Dave


      
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Rob
Do you have a drawing for this new proa in your site?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 29, 2008, at 10:58 AM, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:

G'day,

Thanks for all the help.  Amazing the depth of knowledge available if
you know who to ask.  I will let you know the choice when it is made.

The boat will be available for charter through Seabbatical, so any
expressions of interest should be sent to them, or me.   May even be
some early bird discounts available.  ;-)    Actually, if there is any
interest, I could talk to the owner about the first charter/delivery
being a bunch of people from this list.

regards,

Rob

On Sat, Mar 29, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:






Wow, you got a few contacts Carlos.

By the way I could do the up North trip now, as good time to bail out of
Perth, with real estate prices here.

Doug



carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@...> wrote:






You may want to try Trinidad -
here is the link for marinas in Trinidad
http://www.ysatt.org/boatyard%20&%20marina%20guide.htm

Samson Boatyard in San Fernando is mentioned under a amateur builder who
wanted a low cost project: http://www.doyleguides.com/trin-cat.htm
Here is the link to the caribbean yellow pages showing Samson boats listed
http://www.caribbeanonlineyellowpages.com/listings_1/1_category_B_135.html

I can e-mail back home in Venezuela to two of my boat building buddies and
ask them about rates and any import issues - the Bolivar is very low and in
the past you could find rustic but very good shipyards either in Margarita
Island (more expensive), Puerto La Cruz, or in Morrocoy or Tucacas - much
cheaper - let me know if this is a good route for you.
My best friend keeps his yatch in his waterfront condo in Puerto La Cruz and
he can tell me which marina can give you a good deal
Here is the link for Venezuela: http://www.noonsite.com/Countries/Venezuela

I also have good friends in Jamaica but now we are talking hurricane alley
- that is the good thing about Trinidad and Venezuela - not one single
hurricane since the 1800


----- Original Message ----
From: Dale Bolton <dalebolton@...>
To: harryproa@...
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 8:13:46 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] need a builder






Hi Gang – the cost of boatbuilding over the years has I'm sure caused us all
to spend many hours thinking. The difficulty as I see it is that when it
cost more than $10 and hour to build it just does not makes sense. Here is
Canada it is had to find a good builder for less than $35 hour and they need
that much to stay open. . When you pay that much it is impossible to get the
money back. Not sure what they want in the Caribbean or Central/South
America.

Dale


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I have been looking at outsourcing builders too
I came across Ken Grome bagacayboatworks@gmail.com, who builds in the
Phillipines, has done a lot of smaller boats. and seems very savvy
about the whole business.
Might be worth a contact. The Phillipines is a lot closer to Australia
also, and I think gets special deals on imported products. The cost of
repatriating a boat from overseas back into australia is very high.