Hi,

I've been busy for the last month or so, so haven't been able to
respond... but I'm in northeast Indiana, a little over an hour outside
Chicago.  I'm very interested in the workshop.  Are there any updates
on things?

I'd also like to get more experience working on a bigger boat, so if
possible, and if you're interested, I'd like to come and help out
beyond just that weekend. I've got a medium amount of experience on
smaller wood boats, no real experience with vacuum bagging stuff, and
extensive experience in bringing food and beer to events like this.
Please keep us posted on when and where you're going to be working.

Thanks,
Phil

--- In harryproa@..., "captian_rapscallion"
<captian_rapscallion@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm building the Maxi Racer proa this fall, and I was wondering if
> there would be any interest in a weekend boat building workshop. It
> would give people a chance to see how the panels are made and the
hull
> shape is formed - and if you wanted you could help out a bit :)
>
> I was thinking of something rather informal, there would be no fee to
> participate; and you can pick up a few tricks that might help you
with
> your own build. I'm thinking of hosting it in the southeast Wisconsin
> area. Is there any interest in such an event?
>

25hp?  maybe you could go with an electric motor; one that is capable of 25 hp if enough current is applied.... maybe you don't have to actually apply that amount of current all of the time.

And what is meant by "fixed"?  Would a "fixed" prop that turned like a tank turret count as fixed?  The turret is fixed to the hull, right?

----- Original Message ----
From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail.com>
To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au
Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 7:03:29 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: progress

G'day,

The motor requirement us correct, and is a nuisance, not just because
of the weight, but the fixed prop in one hull is downright dangerous
and silly, both for cats and proas. They agreed that it is not ideal
and I suggested another option (minimum speed in flat water and/or a
bollard pull figure. They are considering this at their October
meeting, although I do not have very high hopes for an amendment.
The other requirements for Cat 1 are not too onerous, and weigh a
couple of hundred kgs. Most of them I agree with, but some do not
apply to harrys and I would seek an exemption.

Reality is, that an ultra light Solitarry may not be allowed to race
officially. However, if they were not prepared to modify the engine
rules, I think there is enough goodwill that it could be raced
unofficially (ie, no prizes), as long as it had enough engine capacity
to get in and out of the marinas. This is not such a big deal and
could be done without adding much weight, even if it had to be a fixed
prop.

>From my point of view, just being allowed to start and sail with them
would be a huge step in the right direction.

regards,

Rob.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, D Z <ubik245@yahoo. com.au> wrote:
> Hi Rob and all the others,
>
> great that the solitarry will be allowed to start in the route du rhum. I am
> very interested in the solitarry and I think it is a great approach to make
> an easy to handle light boat.
>
> But have you considered all the rules that the boat has to fulfill to get
> into
> the class? You wrote that the rules will be adjusted but I wonder in which
> way and if that is really possible. As far as I know the open 50 rules are
> fixed till 2010.
>
> Have you also considered the OSR for category 1 racing for multihulls?
>
> I see the problem that after fitting all the necessary equipment the boat
> would be too heavy. I saw in the rules that you need for example a 27 hp
> motor. Do you know if these kind of rules can be modified?
>
> Just to be right understood, I don't want to talk against the boat or the
> idea
> to sail the route du rhum with it I just want to know more about the chances
> one could have with a harryproa.
>
> bye
> Dominik
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Sent: Thursday, 4 September, 2008 8:20:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: progress
>
> G'day,
>
> Feel free to post any logo ideas. At present there is no official
> harry logo, so all ideas considered, especially the outside the square
> ones.
>
> How would a harry (say Solitarry) go against Crepes Wahou?
>
> Solitarry is:
>
> About 20% of the weight (800 kgs vs 4.2 tonnes)
> 30% the upwind sail area (50 vs 170 sq m)
> 40% of downwind sail area (100 vs 250 sq m) Solitarry's is a kite, so
> a) it can sail deeper and b) it is in stronger air.
> About 50% of the windage. (estimate)
> About 30% of the water drag. (guess)
> Bruce number 1.92 vs 2.03
> Cost $50,000 vs $1-2,000,000
> Ratio of possible problems 1:100
>
> In theory, Solitarry has a pretty good chance. In practise, it would
> be up against a legend sailing a state of the art boat with tens of
> thousands of miles of experience, so would probably be hammered. As
> you say, make it a cost based formula, and there would be no argument.
>
> Also interesting would be to see how Blind Date went against the
> cruisier Classe 50's such as Victorinox.
>
> regards,
>
> rob
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 6:02 AM, hardystein2004
> <hardystein2004@ yahoo.com. au> wrote:
>> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@. ..> wrote:
>>>
>>> G'day,
>>>
>>> I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
>>> 50 multihull organisation. Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
>>> are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
>>> to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.
>>>
>>> I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
>>> Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.
>>>
>>> The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class
>> 50' Open's
>>> rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
>>> obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds. org ).
>>>
>>> Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open
>> meeting) I
>>> started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper
>> Prince de
>>> Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes
>> Whaou)
>>> about proas.
>>> We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be
>> allow to
>>> race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.
>>>
>>> I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I
>> take
>>> part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express
>> regarding the
>>> proas, do send me your remarks.
>>>
>>> My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform
>> you of a
>>> certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa
>> singlehanded.
>>>
>>> Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
>>> Class 50' Open administrator
>>> end quote
>>> This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
>>> wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
>>> profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
>>> discuss it ;-)) it would certainly get the lion's share of the
>>> publicity pre race.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>
>> Very encouraging , Rob .- And about time proa`s got a fair go.-
>>
>> Big HARRYPROA logo on sails ....:-)
>>
>> Logo design competition anyone ?
>>
>>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.
>

If I was rule maker I would say NO to electrics unless they are backed up by
27+HP generator.  I would expect that is the minimum sufficient power for
continuous hull speed for 50 ft.  So an electric is just added weight to a heavy
genset.
Old rules die hard. besides it is same rule for all.  Everyone carries excess
weight,
otherwise most would have an electric for just harbor maneuvers.

Granted i is a pain if you "think" you don't need it.  IMHO the "full" racer
types
generally make crappy long term boats due to light weight fab and shortcuts for
speed
versus longevity.   So a purpose built boat  might not have much value when
done.  Do
they have handicaps or classes for lesser performing cruising boats ?   Might be
more fun
to try that rather than the expense of a racer with only 5 years life
expectancy.

It would be a big splash just to say you participated and successfully arrived
with all your
boat parts intact.

JT
--- In harryproa@..., Raps callion <captian_rapscallion@...>
wrote:
>
> 25hp?  maybe you could go with an electric motor; one that is capable of 25 hp
if
enough current is applied.... maybe you don't have to actually apply that amount
of
current all of the time.
>
> And what is meant by "fixed"?  Would a "fixed" prop that turned like a tank
turret count
as fixed?  The turret is fixed to the hull, right?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> To: harryproa@...
> Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 7:03:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: progress
>
>
> G'day,
>
> The motor requirement us correct, and is a nuisance, not just because
> of the weight, but the fixed prop in one hull is downright dangerous
> and silly, both for cats and proas.  They agreed that it is not ideal
> and I suggested another option (minimum speed in flat water and/or a
> bollard pull figure.  They are considering this at their October
> meeting, although I do not have very high hopes for an amendment.
> The other requirements for Cat 1 are not too onerous, and weigh a
> couple of hundred kgs.  Most of them I agree with, but some do not
> apply to harrys and I would seek an exemption.
>
> Reality is, that an ultra light Solitarry may not be allowed to race
> officially.  However, if they were not prepared to modify the engine
> rules, I think there is enough goodwill that it could be raced
> unofficially (ie, no prizes), as long as it had enough engine capacity
> to get in and out of the marinas.  This is not such a big deal and
> could be done without adding much weight, even if it had to be a fixed
> prop.
>
> From my point of view, just being allowed to start and sail with them
> would be a huge step in the right direction.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob.
>
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, D Z <ubik245@yahoo. com.au> wrote:
> > Hi Rob and all the others,
> >
> > great that the solitarry will be allowed to start in the route du rhum. I am
> > very interested in the solitarry and I think it is a great approach to make
> > an easy to handle light boat.
> >
> > But have you considered all the rules that the boat has to fulfill to get
> > into
> > the class? You wrote that the rules will be adjusted but I wonder in which
> > way and if that is really possible. As far as I know the open 50 rules are
> > fixed till 2010.
> >
> > Have you also considered the OSR for category 1 racing for multihulls?
> >
> > I see the problem that after fitting all the necessary equipment the boat
> > would be too heavy. I saw in the rules that you need for example a 27 hp
> > motor. Do you know if these kind of rules can be modified?
> >
> > Just to be right understood, I don't want to talk against the boat or the
> > idea
> > to sail the route du rhum with it I just want to know more about the chances
> > one could have with a harryproa.
> >
> > bye
> > Dominik
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com>
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Sent: Thursday, 4 September, 2008 8:20:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: progress
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > Feel free to post any logo ideas. At present there is no official
> > harry logo, so all ideas considered, especially the outside the square
> > ones.
> >
> > How would a harry (say Solitarry) go against Crepes Wahou?
> >
> > Solitarry is:
> >
> > About 20% of the weight (800 kgs vs 4.2 tonnes)
> > 30% the upwind sail area (50 vs 170 sq m)
> > 40% of downwind sail area (100 vs 250 sq m) Solitarry's is a kite, so
> > a) it can sail deeper and b) it is in stronger air.
> > About 50% of the windage. (estimate)
> > About 30% of the water drag. (guess)
> > Bruce number 1.92 vs 2.03
> > Cost $50,000 vs $1-2,000,000
> > Ratio of possible problems 1:100
> >
> > In theory, Solitarry has a pretty good chance. In practise, it would
> > be up against a legend sailing a state of the art boat with tens of
> > thousands of miles of experience, so would probably be hammered. As
> > you say, make it a cost based formula, and there would be no argument.
> >
> > Also interesting would be to see how Blind Date went against the
> > cruisier Classe 50's such as Victorinox.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > rob
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 6:02 AM, hardystein2004
> > <hardystein2004@ yahoo.com. au> wrote:
> >> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@ ..> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> G'day,
> >>>
> >>> I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
> >>> 50 multihull organisation. Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
> >>> are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
> >>> to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.
> >>>
> >>> I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
> >>> Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.
> >>>
> >>> The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class
> >> 50' Open's
> >>> rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
> >>> obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds. org ).
> >>>
> >>> Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open
> >> meeting) I
> >>> started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper
> >> Prince de
> >>> Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes
> >> Whaou)
> >>> about proas.
> >>> We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be
> >> allow to
> >>> race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.
> >>>
> >>> I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I
> >> take
> >>> part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express
> >> regarding the
> >>> proas, do send me your remarks.
> >>>
> >>> My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform
> >> you of a
> >>> certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa
> >> singlehanded.
> >>>
> >>> Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
> >>> Regards.
> >>>
> >>> Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
> >>> Class 50' Open administrator
> >>> end quote
> >>> This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
> >>> wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
> >>> profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
> >>> discuss it ;-)) it would certainly get the lion's share of the
> >>> publicity pre race.
> >>>
> >>> regards,
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>>
> >>
> >> Very encouraging , Rob .- And about time proa`s got a fair go.-
> >>
> >> Big HARRYPROA logo on sails ....:-)
> >>
> >> Logo design competition anyone ?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > ____________ _________ _________ __
> > Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.
> >
>

G'day,

The motor requirement us correct, and is a nuisance, not just because
of the weight, but the fixed prop in one hull is downright dangerous
and silly, both for cats and proas.  They agreed that it is not ideal
and I suggested another option (minimum speed in flat water and/or a
bollard pull figure.  They are considering this at their October
meeting, although I do not have very high hopes for an amendment.
The other requirements for Cat 1 are not too onerous, and weigh a
couple of hundred kgs.  Most of them I agree with, but some do not
apply to harrys and I would seek an exemption.

Reality is, that an ultra light Solitarry may not be allowed to race
officially.  However, if they were not prepared to modify the engine
rules, I think there is enough goodwill that it could be raced
unofficially (ie, no prizes), as long as it had enough engine capacity
to get in and out of the marinas.  This is not such a big deal and
could be done without adding much weight, even if it had to be a fixed
prop.

From my point of view, just being allowed to start and sail with them
would be a huge step in the right direction.

regards,

Rob.

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:59 PM, D Z <ubik245@...> wrote:
> Hi Rob and all the others,
>
> great that the solitarry will be allowed to start in the route du rhum. I am
> very interested in the solitarry and I think it is a great approach to make
> an easy to handle light boat.
>
> But have you considered all the rules that the boat has to fulfill to get
> into
> the class? You wrote that the rules will be adjusted but I wonder in which
> way and if that is really possible. As far as I know the open 50 rules are
> fixed till 2010.
>
> Have you also considered the OSR for category 1 racing for multihulls?
>
> I see the problem that after fitting all the necessary equipment the boat
> would be too heavy. I saw in the rules that you need for example a 27 hp
> motor. Do you know if these kind of rules can be modified?
>
> Just to be right understood, I don't want to talk against the boat or the
> idea
> to sail the route du rhum with it I just want to know more about the chances
> one could have with a harryproa.
>
> bye
> Dominik
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> To: harryproa@...
> Sent: Thursday, 4 September, 2008 8:20:56 AM
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: progress
>
> G'day,
>
> Feel free to post any logo ideas. At present there is no official
> harry logo, so all ideas considered, especially the outside the square
> ones.
>
> How would a harry (say Solitarry) go against Crepes Wahou?
>
> Solitarry is:
>
> About 20% of the weight (800 kgs vs 4.2 tonnes)
> 30% the upwind sail area (50 vs 170 sq m)
> 40% of downwind sail area (100 vs 250 sq m) Solitarry's is a kite, so
> a) it can sail deeper and b) it is in stronger air.
> About 50% of the windage. (estimate)
> About 30% of the water drag. (guess)
> Bruce number 1.92 vs 2.03
> Cost $50,000 vs $1-2,000,000
> Ratio of possible problems 1:100
>
> In theory, Solitarry has a pretty good chance. In practise, it would
> be up against a legend sailing a state of the art boat with tens of
> thousands of miles of experience, so would probably be hammered. As
> you say, make it a cost based formula, and there would be no argument.
>
> Also interesting would be to see how Blind Date went against the
> cruisier Classe 50's such as Victorinox.
>
> regards,
>
> rob
>
> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 6:02 AM, hardystein2004
> <hardystein2004@ yahoo.com. au> wrote:
>> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Rob Denney" <harryproa@. ..> wrote:
>>>
>>> G'day,
>>>
>>> I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
>>> 50 multihull organisation. Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
>>> are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
>>> to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.
>>>
>>> I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
>>> Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.
>>>
>>> The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class
>> 50' Open's
>>> rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
>>> obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds. org ).
>>>
>>> Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open
>> meeting) I
>>> started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper
>> Prince de
>>> Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes
>> Whaou)
>>> about proas.
>>> We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be
>> allow to
>>> race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.
>>>
>>> I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I
>> take
>>> part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express
>> regarding the
>>> proas, do send me your remarks.
>>>
>>> My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform
>> you of a
>>> certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa
>> singlehanded.
>>>
>>> Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
>>> Class 50' Open administrator
>>> end quote
>>> This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
>>> wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
>>> profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
>>> discuss it ;-)) it would certainly get the lion's share of the
>>> publicity pre race.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>
>> Very encouraging , Rob .- And about time proa`s got a fair go.-
>>
>> Big HARRYPROA logo on sails ....:-)
>>
>> Logo design competition anyone ?
>>
>>
>
> ________________________________
> Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7- Find out more.
>

G'day,

It is currently being remodelled by an Italian stylist.  Not sure
whether he will be able to change much and keep the cost low, but we
will see.

No idea if the skipper is in the loop or not, but the boat is pretty
common knowledge, so probably no harm.  Be interesting to hear his
views.

Plan is to build another boat first to sort any production bugs.  At
present this will be either a 15m/50' version with a different (1
double, 2 single cabins one toilet/shower instead of 4 doubles and 4
toilet/showers)  layout or a flat panel harry.    Both are at the
waiting for contract stage, but the builder is still sorting out
permit problems.  Unlikely that the charter boat will be ready for
spring next year,  but when it is, I am sure we can arrange something
for the delivery/early charters

Of course, if the China set up is cheaper and the quality is as high
as I have been lead to believe, then all these boats will probably be
built in China.

regards,

Rob

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I was wondering if there were any updates regarding the charter proa for
> seabattical? I am going on a boat delivery with the father of seabattical's
> captain (not owner), and neither of them seems to have heard about it yet.
> Should I not say anything to them?
> I would love to be able to reserve a spot on the delivery trip, or a stint
> on it next spring. Just sniffing the air.
> - Gardner
>

G'day,

Feel free to post any logo ideas.  At present there is no official
harry logo, so all ideas considered, especially the outside the square
ones.

How would a harry (say Solitarry) go against Crepes Wahou?

Solitarry is:

About 20% of the weight (800 kgs vs 4.2 tonnes)
30% the upwind sail area (50 vs 170 sq m)
40% of downwind sail area (100 vs 250 sq m) Solitarry's is a kite, so
a) it can sail deeper and b) it is in stronger air.
About 50% of the windage. (estimate)
About 30% of the water drag.  (guess)
Bruce number 1.92 vs 2.03
Cost $50,000 vs $1-2,000,000
Ratio of possible problems 1:100

In theory, Solitarry has a pretty good chance.  In practise, it would
be up against a legend sailing a state of the art boat with tens of
thousands of miles of experience, so would probably be hammered.  As
you say, make it a cost based formula, and there would be no argument.

Also interesting would be to see how Blind Date went against the
cruisier Classe 50's such as Victorinox.

regards,

rob

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 6:02 AM, hardystein2004
<hardystein2004@...> wrote:
> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
>> 50 multihull organisation. Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
>> are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
>> to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.
>>
>> I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
>> Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.
>>
>> The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class
> 50' Open's
>> rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
>> obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds.org ).
>>
>> Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open
> meeting) I
>> started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper
> Prince de
>> Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes
> Whaou)
>> about proas.
>> We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be
> allow to
>> race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.
>>
>> I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I
> take
>> part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express
> regarding the
>> proas, do send me your remarks.
>>
>> My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform
> you of a
>> certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa
> singlehanded.
>>
>> Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
>> Regards.
>>
>> Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
>> Class 50' Open administrator
>> end quote
>> This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
>> wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
>> profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
>> discuss it ;-)) it would certainly get the lion's share of the
>> publicity pre race.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>
> Very encouraging , Rob .- And about time proa`s got a fair go.-
>
> Big HARRYPROA logo on sails ....:-)
>
> Logo design competition anyone ?
>
>

Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe

They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.

---

From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Gardner Pomper
Sent: Thursday, 4 September 2008 2:31 a.m.
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] Charter proa status?

Hi,

I was wondering if there were any updates regarding the charter proa for seabattical? I am going on a boat delivery with the father of seabattical's captain (not owner), and neither of them seems to have heard about it yet. Should I not say anything to them?

I would love to be able to reserve a spot on the delivery trip, or a stint on it next spring. Just sniffing the air.

- Gardner

This is very interesting but would a harryproa be competitive ? Actually
the class restrictions on length are a strong inconvenient : cost would be
a better restriction !
How do you think a purpose built harryproa would compare to, for instance,
"Crepes Whaou" ?
Living 150 km from St Malo, you guess I'm interested !

Nicolas

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
> 50 multihull organisation.    Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
> are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
> to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.
>
> I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
> Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.
>
> The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class
50' Open's
> rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
> obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds.org ).
>
> Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open
meeting) I
> started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper
Prince de
> Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes
Whaou)
> about proas.
> We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be
allow to
> race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.
>
> I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I
take
> part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express
regarding the
> proas, do send me your remarks.
>
> My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform
you of a
> certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa
singlehanded.
>
> Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
> Regards.
>
> Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
> Class 50' Open administrator
> end quote
> This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
> wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
> profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
> discuss it ;-))  it would certainly get the lion's share of the
> publicity pre race.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>


Very encouraging , Rob .- And about time proa`s got a fair go.-

Big HARRYPROA logo on sails ....:-)

Logo design competition anyone ?

--- In harryproa@..., "tsstproa" <bitme1234@...> wrote:
>
>
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "hardystein2004"
> > > <hardystein2004@> wrote:
>
> >
> > I`m concerned about luff tension , how important do you think it
> would
> > be to retain a really taught luff , Todd ?
>
> Luff tension is cruicial in gaining performance from the dyna. I think
> luff tension is more important the further away from the mast it gets
> in order To maintain a uniformed flow. Its your leading and trailig
> edges. So the more perfect you can retain the shape the better the
> performance. Even on the models ribbed dyna (dark blue)The wing
> material at the spaces between the ribs has stretched out and has
> compromised performance. I'm hoping with todays technology in material
> I can possibly make a 100sqft solid or semi solid reefable TSST wing.
> To achieve performance close to what model is doing.
>
> Todd
>

Thank you for your reply Todd.

Yes , about luff tension , it`s what I thought too.Interesting , that
the model of the ribbed sail is quilting / stretching too.
Maybe some rigid film type material , not sure what though.

You have probably seen this Todd , but anyone interested in these rigs
may find this worthy of a read:

The camber control seems to work well .


http://windmek.ca/wingsail/

----- Original Message -----

From: tsstproa

To: harryproa@...

Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 5:40 PM

Subject: [harryproa] Re: New ribless Dyna rig for square harry/ slamtacker

> > --- In harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au, "hardystein2004"
> > <hardystein2004@> wrote:

>
> I`m concerned about luff tension , how important do you think it
would
> be to retain a really taught luff , Todd ?

Luff tension is cruicial in gaining performance from the dyna. I think
luff tension is more important the further away from the mast it gets
in order To maintain a uniformed flow. Its your leading and trailig
edges. So the more perfect you can retain the shape the better the
performance. Even on the models ribbed dyna (dark blue)The wing
material at the spaces between the ribs has stretched out and has
compromised performance. I'm hoping with todays technology in material
I can possibly make a 100sqft solid or semi solid reefable TSST wing.
To achieve performance close to what model is doing.

Todd

Internal Virus Database is out of date.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.3/1563 - Release Date: 2008/07/20 12:59 PM

> > --- In harryproa@..., "hardystein2004"
> > <hardystein2004@> wrote:

>
> I`m concerned about luff tension , how important do you think it
would
> be to retain a really taught luff , Todd ?

Luff tension is cruicial in gaining performance from the dyna. I think
luff tension is more important the further away from the mast it gets
in order To maintain a uniformed flow. Its your leading and trailig
edges. So the more perfect you can retain the shape the better the
performance. Even on the models ribbed dyna (dark blue)The wing
material at the spaces between the ribs has stretched out and has
compromised performance. I'm hoping with todays technology in material
I can possibly make a 100sqft solid or semi solid reefable TSST wing.
To achieve performance close to what model is doing.

Todd

G'day,

I received the following from one of the administrators of the Classe
50 multihull organisation.    Given that the OSTAR organisers and ISAF
are dead set against proas (for very ill defined reasons), it is good
to see the French daring to explore new possibilities.

I wish to inform you that if you are willing to race the Route du
Rhum 2010 they is a possibility for you and your boat.

The only thing to make sure is that your boat confirm with the Class 50' Open's
rules, to become a member of the Class and to have the boat surveyed to
obtain a Class certificate ( http://www.50pieds.org ).

Sunday night at the prize giving of the Trophé Malo (Class 50' Open meeting) I
started a discussion with Hervé Cléris (Class President - skipper Prince de
Bretagne) and Franck-Yves Escoffier (Vice-President - skipper Crêpes Whaou)
about proas.
We all agreed, if a proa confirm within our Class rules, he will be allow to
race any event of the class ... and the Route du Rhum is one of them.

I want to point that next october the technical commitee (in which I take
part)will improve this rule so if you a special view to express regarding the
proas, do send me your remarks.

My message is not to force you to change your plans but to inform you of a
certain evolution regarding the possibility of racing a proa singlehanded.

Good luck with your project and if you need anything just get in touch.
Regards.

Marc Pardailhé-Galabrun
Class 50' Open administrator
end quote
This would be an incredible opportunity for a sponsor or for a
wannabee sailor looking for a low cost, high profile entry in a high
profile event, as even if the proa did not win (debatable, happy to
discuss it ;-))  it would certainly get the lion's share of the
publicity pre race.

regards,

Rob

-Interesting the way they take off. Impressive
  Robert-- In harryproa@..., "tsstproa" <bitme1234@...>
wrote:
>
> I noticed you said if one were to build full size. I don't no the
> exact origin of the dyna rig. I think it was a couple of german guys
> in the 50's  not sure though. Also not sure how there prototypes
> evolved . But going off of what I seen on the maltese falcon with ribs
> being attached to mast and mast rotatating Built my first dyna that
> same way.
>
> Now for me and having experimented with both Bolger rig and Dyna. I'm
> thinking of a full size TSST sail 100sqft to start of my own design
> with no battens or spars. Similiar to the ribless dyna but with cut
> section enterlocking. Using performed rigid sections of sail attached
> to mast that can be reefed. Theres alot of room for details as you can
> see.
>
> Here's another clip close to full emersion of leeward hull without
> capsize or sudden stall just balance and foward drive with descent
> speed. Model only weighs 16oz. Thats sailing weight as you see on the
> water. Also hulls are flat bottom. I think I put the beam hung rudders
> to close to leehull. I see a wave forming next to rudder on hull .
> Looks like it could be from the compressed water flowing through when
> at speed due to limited space between the rudder and hull.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QplwYbQJz18
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "hardystein2004"
> <hardystein2004@> wrote:
>
> >
> > Wow Todd ! Amazing.
> >
> > If one was to build a real full size version of the Dyna rig ,
> > would you need parrels on the battens , or would it be more like the
> > bolger rig , where the battens are not attached to the mast ?
> >
>

--- In harryproa@..., "tsstproa" <bitme1234@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed you said if one were to build full size. I don't no the
> exact origin of the dyna rig. I think it was a couple of german guys
> in the 50's  not sure though. Also not sure how there prototypes
> evolved . But going off of what I seen on the maltese falcon with ribs
> being attached to mast and mast rotatating Built my first dyna that
> same way.
>
> Now for me and having experimented with both Bolger rig and Dyna. I'm
> thinking of a full size TSST sail 100sqft to start of my own design
> with no battens or spars. Similiar to the ribless dyna but with cut
> section enterlocking. Using performed rigid sections of sail attached
> to mast that can be reefed. Theres alot of room for details as you can
> see.
>
> Here's another clip close to full emersion of leeward hull without
> capsize or sudden stall just balance and foward drive with descent
> speed. Model only weighs 16oz. Thats sailing weight as you see on the
> water. Also hulls are flat bottom. I think I put the beam hung rudders
> to close to leehull. I see a wave forming next to rudder on hull .
> Looks like it could be from the compressed water flowing through when
> at speed due to limited space between the rudder and hull.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QplwYbQJz18
>
> Todd
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "hardystein2004"
> <hardystein2004@> wrote:
>
> >


WOOHOO !

That little boat was smoking !....:-)

Wow , I think your`e onto something.

I think it`s likely that at such speeds , as you say , the rudder may
be a little too close to lw hull.

I can  imagine one rigged full size.I think it would look really good too.

I`m a little more conservative in imagining a junk type sail -reefed
like a junk sail  - but centered on the mast .

You are way ahead of me ...:-).

I`m concerned about luff tension , how important do you think it would
be to retain a really taught luff , Todd ?

I noticed you said if one were to build full size. I don't no the
exact origin of the dyna rig. I think it was a couple of german guys
in the 50's  not sure though. Also not sure how there prototypes
evolved . But going off of what I seen on the maltese falcon with ribs
being attached to mast and mast rotatating Built my first dyna that
same way.

Now for me and having experimented with both Bolger rig and Dyna. I'm
thinking of a full size TSST sail 100sqft to start of my own design
with no battens or spars. Similiar to the ribless dyna but with cut
section enterlocking. Using performed rigid sections of sail attached
to mast that can be reefed. Theres alot of room for details as you can
see.

Here's another clip close to full emersion of leeward hull without
capsize or sudden stall just balance and foward drive with descent
speed. Model only weighs 16oz. Thats sailing weight as you see on the
water. Also hulls are flat bottom. I think I put the beam hung rudders
to close to leehull. I see a wave forming next to rudder on hull .
Looks like it could be from the compressed water flowing through when
at speed due to limited space between the rudder and hull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QplwYbQJz18

Todd



--- In harryproa@..., "hardystein2004"
<hardystein2004@...> wrote:

>
> Wow Todd ! Amazing.
>
> If one was to build a real full size version of the Dyna rig ,
> would you need parrels on the battens , or would it be more like the
> bolger rig , where the battens are not attached to the mast ?
>

--- In harryproa@..., "tsstproa" <bitme1234@...> wrote:
>
>  Put a new ribless dyna on square harry/ slamtacker and tried new
> symmetrical boards mounted in beams. Seems fast and responsive but
> with a little more weather helm . Not sure if its due to the sail or
> the boards being located closer in to center of hull or there
> symmetrical shape. But it does scoot out pretty good. Here's a clip.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvHgyhJMS5Y
>


Wow Todd ! Amazing.

If one was to build a real full size version of the Dyna rig ,
would you need parrels on the battens , or would it be more like the
bolger rig , where the battens are not attached to the mast ?

--- In harryproa@..., Mike Crawford <jmichael@...> wrote:
>
>
>   Just do a search for "Hoyt" on the group site and you'll get a
list of
> posts.
>
>   There are 28 posts that mention the rig (mostly because previous post
> text is copied), with the first post being 2979 on 24 March.
>
>   Gunnar had nice addition to the discussion in post 2994:
>
>      http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/message/2994
>
>   Where he mentions the Balanced Rig and the Wharram soft wing sail:
>
>     http://www.balancedrig.com/advantage.html
>
>
http://www.wharram.eu/photos/index.cgi?mode=album&album=/Tiki-range/Tiki%208m%20\
GRP/Tiki%208m%20-%20sailing
>
>        - Mike
>
>
> George Kuck wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > I think this rig was discussed some time ago, does anyone know the
> > date or massage number of this ?
> >
> > Happy sailing,
> > George Kuck
> > Chestertown, MD
> >
> > --- On *Sun, 8/31/08, hardystein2004 /<hardystein2004@...>/*
> > wrote:
> >
> >     From: hardystein2004 <hardystein2004@...>
> >     Subject: [harryproa] Suitable Rig for a Harryproa ?
> >     To: harryproa@...
> >     Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:24 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >     http://www.garryhoy t.com/id32. html
> >     <http://www.garryhoyt.com/id32.html>
> >
> >
> >
>



Thank you will look there.

Put a new ribless dyna on square harry/ slamtacker and tried new
symmetrical boards mounted in beams. Seems fast and responsive but
with a little more weather helm . Not sure if its due to the sail or
the boards being located closer in to center of hull or there
symmetrical shape. But it does scoot out pretty good. Here's a clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvHgyhJMS5Y

Also finished the pacific style proa with leepod and cabin arrangment.
leepod slaps the waves and with the dyne so high up causeing to much
over turning moment from sail . Bruce foil to counter heeling in light
winds 4 to 8. Low aspect symmetrical boards in main hull. Has great
directional stability and deffinately lacks the responsiveness of
square harry. But is easier to shunt from any position . I was also
surprised on the pitching in different wave conditions it showed. I
lost all video except this clip. Might film more but the square harry
is more fun to sail right now. My do a double ribless dyne on the this
one fore and aft of cabin arrangment right on rudder posts. Possibly
steering sail and rudders on same servo . 2 servos one for each set
  ruder sail / rudder sail. Having sail and rudder move together to
steer proa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz91kmxBFfI

Todd

Hello, I think this rig was discussed some time ago, does anyone know the date or massage number of this ?     Happy sailing, George Kuck Chestertown, MD --- On Sun, 8/31/08, hardystein2004 <hardystein2004@yahoo.com.au> wrote: From: hardystein2004 <hardystein2004@yahoo.com.au> Subject: [harryproa] Suitable Rig for a Harryproa ? To: harryproa@yahoogroups.com.au Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:24 PM http://www.garryhoy t.com/id32. html

G'day,

The plan is to only pop the beams when you are at your marina berth.
Even in a wake, the worst that will happen is the inboard side of the
hull will bounce on the beam.  If someone is standing on the inboard
edge, it would need a pretty big wake to bounce it.  On most boats,
standing on the beams will pop them, on the bigger ones they may need
some encouragement, but this is pretty easy.  The good thing about
pulling them out and up is the tramp gets tightened/loosened easily.

The lack of parallel should not be a problem.  Pull one end in, then
the other is probably the easiest way to proceed.  The track is pretty
simple as it is a single car and alignment is not critical, so little
or nothing can jam.  (Famous last words).

More than happy to look at other options, but am not sure what you are
describing.  Could you draw it please.  Short beams attached to the ww
hull are good, but there has to be a bulkhead across the bridgedeck
and hull at this point, so it needs to be clear of the bunks.  Cutting
and reinforcing is generally not a big deal, but try to avoid point
loads.

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 5:19 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> There are a couple things that bother me about this rev. First, the idea of
> having to pop the crossbeams down and out of the u-channel seems like it
> would require really flat water. I don't want to do this out at sea, but
> going into a marina in some chop, or just having a couple inconsiderate
> motorboat kicking up wake seems like it could make that mark difficult.
> Another issue is that once one beam is disconnected, there is nothing
> holding the hulls parallel. I guess you just have to rig a line to hold onto
> the lw hull "stern" but it makes me feel insecure.
> Finally, having the track underneath the deck and not visible during the
> collapsing process also worries me. How will you know what is wrong if the
> car just stops moving? It seems like it would be better if the mechanism
> were visible.
> I have a bit of a variant on this that addresses some of these issues, but
> does have a couple issues of its own. First, I am going to assume that the
> open part of the proa (i.e. where the tramps are) is at least twice as long
> as it is wide. If so, both the beams can fold up against the lw hull without
> hitting each other. That probably won't be true for many of the proa
> designs, but the one I am working with has a deck that is 12x25', and I want
> another 12' of tramp beam, so I only have 12' of crossbeam between the lw
> hull and the deck. Given that, here is my idea:
> Hinge the crossbeams at the lw hull, just as in your diagram. Then you "cut"
> the crossbeams right where they join the deck. The crossbeam under the
> tramps join the crossbeam under the deck with an inner piece that slides in
> and out, just like a latch on a door. (I am thinking something like this)
> The folding end of the crossbeam then runs down a track on the lw side of
> the deck to collapse. Since the crossbeams are <= 50% of the deck length,
> they just about meet in the middle of the deck when the boat is collapsed.
> So, in order to fold the boat, you retract the "bolt" into the beam, then
> slide it along the track on the edge of the deck. That way everything is
> visible the whole time.
> My main concern with this is what cutting the beams in half and then joining
> with the "bolt" will do to the strength, and what to do about the increased
> play in the beams.
> The other complication is if you want longer beams. I think you can do that
> by canting the hinges just a few degrees, so that they dont' hit in the
> middle.
> Anyway, is this clear? doable? I am not sure about drawing it, but I can try
> if it would help.
> - Gardner
>
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 4:01 PM, captian_rapscallion
> <captian_rapscallion@...> wrote:
>>
>> Rob,
>> I like this version more than rev 1. How will this work for getting in
>> and out of a monohull marina slip?
>>
>> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > G'day,
>> >
>> > Even simpler, thanks Jim for the underdeck suggestion.
>> >
>> > Just realised the ww hull will heel when folded. Not a problem for
>> > traillering, but maybe for sleeping. I will check it out in the
>> > morning.
>> >
>> > The beams and hinges are both straight and level, the tramp is
>> > tightened when the second beam is block and tackled into place. Pin
>> > the beams in the brackets in case you are caught aback. There is a
>> > small overlap between the beams when folded, this should come out with
>> > a geometry change, otherwise one or both will have to be angled, the
>> > same as before.
>> >
>> > Again, the track and car can be large and sloppy, there is no weight
>> > on them. Suspect a rope running fore and aft through a hole in the
>> > beam would do the job if necessary. May have to be a bit careful in
>> > big waves, but as long as someone is sitting in the cockpit, it is
>> > unlikely to capsize.
>> >
>> > Not able to change the boat's beam, but It will not be feasible (or
>> > race legal) to reduce/extend the beam while the
>> > boat is sailing, so better to make a second set of beams and tramp for
>> > light air.
>> >
>> > Bearings will be UHMPWE, or pvc drainpipe. Either way, there will be
>> > a stiffener inside them to keep them round. The tow from the beams
>> > will wrap around them 25mm from the top and bottom, then the tow to
>> > attached them to the hull will wrap around above and below that. The
>> > ends will have flanges to stop them sliding out. Could remove a lot
>> > of the bearing material as only the ends are doing anything. They are
>> > the same as the mast bearings so should not be a problem with grit
>> > etc. Friction wil be low as there is not much load on them. Moving
>> > the beams should be pretty easy for 90% of the way as well. A block
>> > and tackle or winch for the last 10% (of one of them) will finish the
>> > job.
>> >
>> > The difference between these beams and those on Elementarry or any other
>> > slider is that these have to be removed through the windward hull, as
>> > well as telescope. This make for a lot of tapers, some of which are
>> > the wrong direction, hence 2 sets of pins.
>> >
>> > This is a pretty typical Rob rant when I have thought of something
>> > new, but not yet tested it. Probably sounds a lot like my enthusiasm
>> > for the removable beams for traillering. ;-)
>> >
>> > The rudders on both systems are mounted on struts attached to the
>> > bulkhead where the deck is cut away. They are not affected by the
>> > beam set up.
>> >
>> > I offered cat2fold $100 per boat, have not heard back
>> > yet. Happy to use his system as well, but it involves some mucking
>> > about with the lee hull shape.
>> >
>> > regards,
>> >
>> > ROb
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:50 AM, captian_rapscallion
>> > <captian_rapscallion@...> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > It's an interesting idea. I like the potential simplicity a slider
>> > > might offer when getting the boat ready to launch and retrieve. The
>> > > slider offers the potential beam adjustment in light air, I really
>> > > like that too.
>> > >
>> > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> G'Day,
>> > >>
>> > >> Just uploaded a picture of a scheme that does not use 2 part beams.
>> > >>
>> > >> Each end of the beams are in large bearings. Leeward ones are mounted
>> > >> on the side of the boat, windward ones are on tracks. When the boat
>> > >> is fully extended, the windward ones sit in a housing (not shown)
>> > >> which takes the load off the tracks. To fold, the windward ends are
>> > >> slid along the tracks (no sailing loads and no alignment problems so
>> > >> the tracks don't have to be over strong or precisely located, could
>> > >> use simple glass T tracks and cars). There is a removable filler
>> piece
>> > >> of the tracks which spans the cockpit. Mount all 4 tracks on a piece
>> > >> of ply that is located by the seat ends.
>> > >>
>> > >> The tricky bit is the leeward hull left side hinge in the drawings.
>> > >> This is angled so that as the beam rotates, the windward end rises.
>> > >> Consequentlt, the windward ends do not collide and allow full folding
>> > >> to happen.
>> > >>
>> > >> It is late and I am tired, so may have missed something. If not, this
>> > >> is a simple, light folding system which apart from getting the angle
>> > >> on the lee hull hinge right, would be very easy to build and operate.
>> > >> The tramp stays on, the beams can be slid one at a time, partially or
>> > >> all the way. Only drama so far would be clambering over the beams to
>> > >> get in and out of the cockpit in the marina.
>> > >>
>> > >> Look forward to your comments.
>> > >>
>> > >> regards,
>> > >>
>> > >> Rob
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>