Gardner,

Rob and I used the same base.  Dry means with stuff, range, and all
the fixins.  I have a delta list of what Rare Bird did not have or
what I had different.  Thus the difference 6720 to 8000 +/-.
Provisions, water, fuel, dinghy and peoples are heavy, which gets me
up to 10700.  I messed up the first estimate badly by starting with
Aroha and building up.  Rare Bird is MUCH closer and easier to adjust.

I posted a couple of updates to my plans to "files" section.  Haven't
done one recently, probably should delete the older versions.  Boat
grew based on "boss" input.  She splits the bill so have to
accommodate her in the style to which she is accustomed. "Harryproa
Extended Rev5" is the closest to current design in the files
area.  "Harryproa Extended Painted" is a prettier pic.

If I can get a model out of the Etamax group (marine designers) then
can have my son work it up for nice 3d Views as a completed design.
Working on the structural issues now to bring a free-standing mast
for wings to the center of the boat.  Plus details in the rudders
mounted to beams.  Rudi's ideas, Rob's ideas and mine on this one.
Etamax is working the lot for best solution.

JT



--- In harryproa@..., "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...>
wrote:
>
> Cold overnight. Frost warnings. Warm (60's F) during the day, but I
am
> working then. Only have time for boatbuilding nights and weekends.
> I am trying to get to the point where I can do a spreadsheet. The
addon list
> you provided "Crew of
> (4), 100 gal water, 25 gal fuel, 10KW genset, inverters, batteries,
rig"
> adds up (in my estimates) to 2500 lbs or so, plus provisions.
>
> So, when you say "dry", do you mean including stove, heads,
fridge/freezer,
> etc? That probably adds 500+ pounds to the hull weight.
>
> The way I am figuring to add up the weight, I need to start with
just the
> foam & fiberglass as a base, then I can put in a line item for
every other
> item I put in the boat. I would like to be able to estimate just the
> foam/fiberglass/epoxy/carbon/paint to within 10%, so that I can
figure out a
> total. Lots of stuff to add on (anchors, engines are all heavy), so
I don't
> want to count them twice.
>
> Do you have drawings posted in the group area for your layout yet?
>
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 8:56 PM, jjtctaylor <jtaylor412@...> wrote:
>
> >   Cold in York ? Nice here, Cinci.
> >
> > Done a bunch of spreadsheets, Rare Bird, Aroha, Blind Date,
actual weights
> > & measures,
> > capacity and such. Current spec for WW 36 ft, LW 50 ft lengths,
10700
> > loaded. Crew of
> > (4), 100 gal water, 25 gal fuel, 10KW genset, inverters,
batteries, rig and
> > provisions
> > allowance, bells, whistles, pumps, AC, water heater, all
associated
> > hardwares, hatches etc.
> >
> > Empty is not a number available as it will depend on a choice of
materials.
> > Past was strip
> > planked. I have to extrapolate published weight based on crane
lift and fit
> > out at the
> > time. Add or subtract with better fab methods and overall size.
Rare Bird
> > was 6720 dry, I
> > will be just under 8000 dry, albeit slightly larger overall. but
better
> > laminate plan.
> >
> > Expect for the size you too should be in the 7000 to 8000 pound
range,
> > empty but ready
> > to sail. Depends on stuff.....
> >
> > JT
> >

Le mardi 7 octobre 2008 10:13:47 vous avez écrit:
> For a variety of reasons (mainly reduced freight and damage, but
>  also user feedback and to get some boats sailing), the builder has
>  offered to sell 4 boats (a 20' container load) into each of
>  Australia, Europe and USA at a very low price. Not sure exactly what
>  this will be at the moment, but it will be appreciably lower than the
>  final selling price, which in turn will be appreciably lower than an
>  equivalent Hobie or similar.
>
>  Is there anyone interested in a deal of this nature? Payment will be
>  to me, and will sit in my account until the boats are delivered. All
>  boats will come with a money back guarantee if the published spec is
>  not met. Nothing is finalised yet, but I am curious to see if there
>  is any interest.

I am interested if proa can handle 80 kg and depending on the price. Idea
would be to try it, show it and sell it again.
In Europe you should take into account regulations. You must have one importer
in EU who is responsible for the conformity of boats with regulations. For
instance you must have owner's manual written in all the languages where you
sell the boats... yes, it's a hassle.

Regards
--
Nicolas Vivier
Icarai
www.icarai.fr
02 33 41 38 91

Nouvelle adresse à partir du 01/10 :
4 av Louis Lumière
50100 CHERBOURG

Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe

They said, get a life. I looked on TradeMe but I couldn't find one.

---

From: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] On Behalf Of Rob Denney
Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2008 9:14 p.m.
To: harryproa@...
Subject: [harryproa] 2 questions

G'day,

There is a strong possibility that harriettes
http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/files/harry%20for%20beginners/
will soon be produced in China.

Two questions for you.

1) Given all the problems coming out of China, what quality controls
would you expect for a production boat? Put another way, what quality
problems have you ever had with beachcats?

They will probably build a polyester/csm/coremat/gelcoat model (70
kgs) and a foam/epoxy/double bias/Awlgrip model (45 kgs). We are also
looking at partially rotomoulded hulls so it can be dragged over
rocks.

At present, each boat will be weighed, the centre of gravity confirmed
and a static load applied to each beam, rudder and the mast and the
deflection of each measured. The appearance will obviously be
checked.

2) For a variety of reasons (mainly reduced freight and damage, but
also user feedback and to get some boats sailing), the builder has
offered to sell 4 boats (a 20' container load) into each of
Australia, Europe and USA at a very low price. Not sure exactly what
this will be at the moment, but it will be appreciably lower than the
final selling price, which in turn will be appreciably lower than an
equivalent Hobie or similar.

Is there anyone interested in a deal of this nature? Payment will be
to me, and will sit in my account until the boats are delivered. All
boats will come with a money back guarantee if the published spec is
not met. Nothing is finalised yet, but I am curious to see if there
is any interest.

Regards,

Rob

G'day,

Any pics of quick and dirty?

Base panel weight is pretty easy to determine.  For Blind Date/Rare
Bird in cedar/glass, work on 6.6 kgs (14.5 lbs) per sq m (10.75 sq') =
1.35lbs per sq'.  The tricky part is the surface area, bonding in of
bulkheads, overlaps,  local beefing up, bog and paint.  For this
reason, treat the Maine Cats number with suspicion.  The only reliable
way is to list every part in the boat and ad them up.  Takes a while,
but is pretty easy once you get into it.  Also gives you a whole lot
more insight into what goes where and why.

In Polycore/glass the base weight will be about two thirds the above,
but with a bit more local reinforcing. Work on 15mm core with 600 gsm
glass either side.  Resin weighs the same as the glass, plus 500 gsm
per sq m to wet out the core.

The empty weight of Blind Date rigged was 2 tons/tonnes, 4,500 lbs
(metric and imperial tons are near enough the same, 2240 lbs or 1,000
kgs).  Jan was a bit sceptical about this, so got it checked by
another crane, which proved it was correct.  Did not include engine,
fuel or water, but the interior was complete.  Rare Bird was pretty
similar, but I think it had the engines and fuel included.  Not sure
if the rig was, though as it was loaded seperately.

Ww hull panels are lighter than lee hull panels which are much lighter
than beam panels as the beams have a bunch of carbon in them, plus
bulkheads.

All the above is less important than what you put on the boat.  Again,
a tedious process, but often with interesting results. It is also very
helpful for the budget process. I have sent you a spreadsheet of some
other owners additions.

As an aside, I am waiting for a deposit to start a 50' liveaboard
based on the charter boat.  This is to be built in Panama and sailed
back to Aus, hopefully in May next year.

regards,

Rob

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:07 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I am back to drawing plans for my liveaboard proa (when it is too cold to
> epoxy on my quick and dirty proa), and I keep coming up with the problem
> that I don't know how to estimate the weight of construction. This has come
> up in earlier discussions, and it seems that it was decided that 2 lbs/sq ft
> was a reasonable estimate.
> My concern is that when I apply that to Visionarry, I get an empty weight of
> about 4500 lbs, instead of the 6700 listed. I am just estimating sq ft, but
> I am thinking that I am overestimating. Here are my guesses:
> ww hull : a panel 33' x 14' = 462 sq ft
> lw hull: a panel 50' x 14' = 700 sq ft + deck 3' x 50' = 850 sq ft total
> accomodations: 30' x 8' = 240 sq ft, multiply by 3 for deck, roof and
> dividers/cabinets = 720 sq ft
> Total sq ft = 2032, weight = 4064 lbs + rig (500 lbs) = 4564 lbs
> I am assuming the Rare Bird empty weight is just hull and rig calcs. If it
> is including things like batteries, tanks, stove, ovens, engines, solar
> panels, etc, then maybe that is where my discrepancy comes from.
> Also, were either Blind Date or Rare Bird actually weighed?
> To support the 2 lb/sq ft estimate, the Maine Cat web site (www.mecat.com)
> has a section on their resin infusion, which states that they have gotten
> the weight of their 1" thick infused panels down to 1.7 lbs/sq ft.
> So, are the weights listed for Rare Bird and Blind Date because they are
> made from strip plank cedar, instead of polycore (or similar)? Or should I
> just multiply sq ft by 3 to get real weight?
> I am sure that the weight must depend on the strength required. Should I
> break my sq ft calcs down by hull, crossbeam and accomodations, assuming
> that the accomodations are not structural, and can be lighter, while the
> hulls need to be strong and the crossbeams even stronger?
> I applied my rough approximations to the charter proa also, which Rob has
> stated will be close to 3.7 tonnes (is that 7400 lbs or are they imperial
> tons?) as sailing weight (empty tanks and no food, people or gear). My
> approximations give about 3000 sq ft for that boat, or 6000 lbs, plus 2 rigs
> at 400 lbs each, for 6800 lbs. Again, I don't know if solar panels,
> batteries, etc have been included, but I am closer on this boat.
> This is very important for my liveaboard design. For my latest, I have given
> up on a collapsing beam, to simplify as much as possible, and have something
> similar in layout to Rob's charter boat, but in a 50' length, so I would
> really like to figure out if my calculations are way off.
> Thanks,
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>
>

Cold in York ?  Nice here, Cinci.

Done a bunch of spreadsheets, Rare Bird, Aroha, Blind Date, actual weights &
measures,
capacity and such.  Current spec for WW 36 ft, LW 50 ft lengths, 10700 loaded. 
Crew of
(4), 100 gal water, 25 gal fuel, 10KW genset, inverters, batteries, rig and
provisions
allowance, bells, whistles, pumps, AC, water heater, all associated hardwares,
hatches etc.

Empty is not a number available as it will depend on a choice of materials. 
Past was strip
planked.   I have to extrapolate published weight based on crane lift and fit
out at the
time.  Add or subtract with better fab methods and overall size.  Rare Bird was
6720 dry,  I
will be just under 8000 dry, albeit slightly larger overall. but better laminate
plan.

Expect for the size you too should be in the 7000 to 8000 pound range, empty but
ready
to sail.  Depends on stuff.....

JT
--- In harryproa@..., "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I am back to drawing plans for my liveaboard proa (when it is too cold to
> epoxy on my quick and dirty proa), and I keep coming up with the problem
> that I don't know how to estimate the weight of construction. This has come
> up in earlier discussions, and it seems that it was decided that 2 lbs/sq ft
> was a reasonable estimate.
>
> My concern is that when I apply that to Visionarry, I get an empty weight of
> about 4500 lbs, instead of the 6700 listed. I am just estimating sq ft, but
> I am thinking that I am overestimating. Here are my guesses:
>
> ww hull : a panel 33' x 14' = 462 sq ft
> lw hull: a panel 50' x 14' = 700 sq ft + deck 3' x 50' = 850 sq ft total
> accomodations: 30' x 8' = 240 sq ft, multiply by 3 for deck, roof and
> dividers/cabinets = 720 sq ft
>
> Total sq ft = 2032, weight = 4064 lbs + rig (500 lbs) = 4564 lbs
>
> I am assuming the Rare Bird empty weight is just hull and rig calcs. If it
> is including things like batteries, tanks, stove, ovens, engines, solar
> panels, etc, then maybe that is where my discrepancy comes from.
>
> Also, were either Blind Date or Rare Bird actually weighed?
>
> To support the 2 lb/sq ft estimate, the Maine Cat web site (www.mecat.com)
> has a section on their resin infusion, which states that they have gotten
> the weight of their 1" thick infused panels down to 1.7 lbs/sq ft.
>
> So, are the weights listed for Rare Bird and Blind Date because they are
> made from strip plank cedar, instead of polycore (or similar)? Or should I
> just multiply sq ft by 3 to get real weight?
>
> I am sure that the weight must depend on the strength required. Should I
> break my sq ft calcs down by hull, crossbeam and accomodations, assuming
> that the accomodations are not structural, and can be lighter, while the
> hulls need to be strong and the crossbeams even stronger?
>
> I applied my rough approximations to the charter proa also, which Rob has
> stated will be close to 3.7 tonnes (is that 7400 lbs or are they imperial
> tons?) as sailing weight (empty tanks and no food, people or gear). My
> approximations give about 3000 sq ft for that boat, or 6000 lbs, plus 2 rigs
> at 400 lbs each, for 6800 lbs. Again, I don't know if solar panels,
> batteries, etc have been included, but I am closer on this boat.
>
> This is very important for my liveaboard design. For my latest, I have given
> up on a collapsing beam, to simplify as much as possible, and have something
> similar in layout to Rob's charter boat, but in a 50' length, so I would
> really like to figure out if my calculations are way off.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>

Just for kicking stuff around, Latvia makes good rec boats.  Basalt
fiber is coming almost universally out of Russia.  Just another
possibility.

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "john42575"
<johnrobertwells@...> wrote:
>
> I would be interested in one of the European ones.
>
> Regards
>
> John Wells
>
>
> > There is a strong possibility that harriettes
> >
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/files/harry%20for%
20beginners/
> >  will soon be produced in China.
>
> > Is there anyone interested in a deal of this nature?  Payment
will be
> > to me, and will sit in my account until the boats are delivered.
All
> > boats will come with a money back guarantee if the published spec
is
> > not met.  Nothing is finalised yet, but I am curious to see if
there
> > is any interest.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
>

I would be interested in one of the European ones.

Regards

John Wells


> There is a strong possibility that harriettes
>
http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/files/harry%20for%20beginners/
>  will soon be produced in China.

> Is there anyone interested in a deal of this nature?  Payment will be
> to me, and will sit in my account until the boats are delivered.  All
> boats will come with a money back guarantee if the published spec is
> not met.  Nothing is finalised yet, but I am curious to see if there
> is any interest.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>

G'day,

There is a strong possibility that harriettes
http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/files/harry%20for%20beginners/
  will soon be produced in China.

Two questions for you.

1) Given all the problems coming out of China, what quality controls
would you expect for a production boat?  Put another way, what quality
problems have you ever had with beachcats?

They will probably build a polyester/csm/coremat/gelcoat model (70
kgs) and a foam/epoxy/double bias/Awlgrip model (45 kgs).  We are also
looking at partially rotomoulded hulls so it can be dragged over
rocks.

At present, each boat will be weighed, the centre of gravity confirmed
and a static load applied to each beam, rudder and the mast and the
deflection of each measured.  The appearance will obviously be
checked.

2) For a variety of reasons (mainly reduced freight and damage, but
also user feedback and to get some boats sailing), the builder has
offered to sell 4 boats (a 20' container load)  into each of
Australia, Europe and USA at a very low price.  Not sure exactly what
this will be at the moment, but it will be appreciably lower than the
final selling price, which in turn will be appreciably lower than an
equivalent Hobie or similar.

Is there anyone interested in a deal of this nature?  Payment will be
to me, and will sit in my account until the boats are delivered.  All
boats will come with a money back guarantee if the published spec is
not met.  Nothing is finalised yet, but I am curious to see if there
is any interest.

Regards,

Rob

Mine are ply, cause that is what I had.  One of El's is foam and glass
panels.  Worked well as far as I can remember.  Just glassed the
inside of the ww hull, will let you know when i am ready for the deck.

regards,
Rob

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
> It may just be easier depending on you rgetting the polcore on flush in line
> to the shaft, and doing both bits, then there is litle space to get bog
> inside , then the grinding ,and joining, etc and all staying tstraight is
> not as simple as a one foam slab.
> You'll see what I mean - or are your as done that I saw there with the ply
> tail piece?
>
> Let me know if you want the corenre edge radiui back.
>
> Doug
>
> --- On Mon, 6/10/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Seating/tramp for quick and dirty proa?
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Monday, 6 October, 2008, 10:16 PM
>
> G'day,
>
> Can do it in solid foam but it means more shaping.  Once the Polycore (or
> foam) panels are the correct stiffness, you should end up with a blade that
> needs little or no shaping or bogging.
>
> Let me know when you want the hull numbers.
>
> regards,
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi ,
>>
>> just finishing rudders, pretty simple in the swing up mechanisms, but
>> takes a while with the blade pieces and fairing. Wonder about doign it same
>> as elementarry rudder blade - all foam, rather than the polycore stuck on
>> the back and foam on front.
>> the polycore is not really too bad but the technique for shaping with the
>> single bit of foam seems easier.
>>
>> Hold up on hulls , while arrange yard space. Waiting list to get in!
>>
>> DOug
>>
>> --- On Sat, 4/10/08, Todd <bitme1234@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Todd <bitme1234@yahoo. com>
>> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Seating/tramp for quick and dirty proa?
>> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
>> Date: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 3:07 AM
>>
>> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@... >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> > Also, still looking for rudder dimension suggestions. I am guess
>> at 1'x4'
>> > for each rudder blade, about 1.5" thick at the center and tapered
>> to each
>> > end. Asymmetrical, flat on the lw side and rounded on the ww side.
>> >
>> > Finally, I will be painting the hulls with epoxy to protect the
>> wood. What
>> > kind of paint can I put over epoxy? Do I need primer?
>> >
>> > Is it adequate to just epoxy/fiberglass below the waterline and
>> just paint
>> > it above?
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > - Gardner
>>
>> Gardner ,
>>
>> My opinion for rudders, I'm going with a width between 14''-18''
>> and a length between 5'-7' with an even rectangle shape blade top to
>> bottom. A thickness between 1.5 -2.5 inches having flat leeward side
>> and curved windward.
>>
>> about wood finishing depending on how long and with what kind of
>> fuss you are willing to do now or down the road. Id' glass entire
>> inside and out knowing you are using 1/8 ply and prime and paint
>> with a interlux brightside. I have had excellent long lasting
>> results on epoxy finished wood. Not so good with just primered and
>> painted wood. If you want it to last with out alot of hassle I'd go
>> with at least epoxy coated wood then prim and paint with a paint
>> similar to Pre-kote primer and interlux brightside paint.
>>
>> What ever become of your model?
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>
>
>

I take it the unarig is the one on elementarry.
I think I'll set up a model with an all jib rig. I've not been too
impressed with mainsails. Jibs work so much better.
If I can get it working I'll post some pics.

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> No strength limit to the height, and two rigs work very well,
although
> upwind performance in light air is not as good as with a single
rig.  Two
> ballestrons are  more trouble than they are worth, I would go with
two una
> rigs, with self vanging booms to keep the sheeting loads low.
Unstayed
> masts are not much fun to climb at sea as the top  whips around a
bit.
> Fortunately, there is little or no reason to do so.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 11:03 AM, fitzgeraldskhayyam <
> omarkhayyam@...> wrote:
>
> >   Hi. I'm wondering if there's a limit to the rig height (as in
> > strength) and problems with multiple rigs, such as disrupted wind
> > flow.
> > I was doing some sketches for a cruising size - say 24 metre
leeward
> > hull and this makes the rig very high, higher than I'd like to
climb,
> > so I thought perhaps 2 rigs may be better, also keeping the coe
lower.
> >
> > Bridges would also be a problem with a single tall rig.
> >
> > However my knowledge of the technical side is not great.
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In harryproa@..., "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Also, still looking for rudder dimension suggestions. I am guess
at 1'x4'
> for each rudder blade, about 1.5" thick at the center and tapered
to each
> end. Asymmetrical, flat on the lw side and rounded on the ww side.
>
> Finally, I will be painting the hulls with epoxy to protect the
wood. What
> kind of paint can I put over epoxy? Do I need primer?
>
> Is it adequate to just epoxy/fiberglass below the waterline and
just paint
> it above?
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Gardner

  Gardner ,

  My opinion for rudders, I'm going with a width between 14''-18''
and a length between 5'-7' with an even rectangle shape blade top to
bottom. A thickness between 1.5 -2.5 inches having flat leeward side
and curved windward.

  about wood finishing depending on how long and with what kind of
fuss you are willing to do now or down the road. Id' glass entire
inside and out knowing you are using 1/8 ply and prime and paint
with a interlux brightside. I have had excellent long lasting
results on epoxy finished wood. Not so good with just primered and
painted wood. If you want it to last with out alot of hassle I'd go
with at least epoxy coated wood then prim and paint with a paint
similar to Pre-kote primer and interlux brightside paint.

What ever become of your model?

Todd

Hi. I'm wondering if there's a limit to the rig height (as in
strength) and problems with multiple rigs, such as disrupted wind
flow.
I was doing some sketches for a cruising size - say 24 metre leeward
hull and this makes the rig very high, higher than I'd like to climb,
so I thought perhaps 2 rigs may be better, also keeping the coe lower.

Bridges would also be a problem with a single tall rig.

However my knowledge of the technical side is not great.

I wonder whether the IPE wood that you mention, is our Brazilian IPÊ
wood. It is a very resistant and beautiful wood. I am considering it
for the building of my aka decks. It is a bit on the heavy side,
unfortunately. But the durability might make up for that.

In any case, I have just planted a new Ipê sapling this last Monday.
Should be good for harvesting in 30 to 40 years. ;-) Just kidding,
hope to finish the boat a little before that. I felt good planting
it, anyway. A campaign started by my company. That's the good type of
campaigns. The trees also give a PHANTASTIC sight when blossoming in
August. They come in bright-shining gold-yellow and in purple.
Well,.. just in case you're interested…

Best regards,

Peter Mirow
Rio de Janeiro/Brazil


--- In harryproa@..., George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello
>  
> You can purchase clear yellow pine (6/4 x12" x 12' ) used for stair
treds at some lumber yards which can be ripped and used for stringers
of laminated for beams or other parts.  Clear fir is also more redily
available than trying to get clear white pine 2 x 4's.  Yellow pine
or fir is more rot resistant than white pine.  For realy  rot
resistant parts I have started using IPE wood decking lumber in place
of teak. 
>  
> George Kuck
> Chestertown, MD
>  
>

guys
trim the old stuff off your emails or posts back to the group. It's
just polite. I just spent minutes scrolling through a massive email
that had only three posts in it. Of those three posts there were only
4 or 5 lines of new information. The rest of it was copy after copy of
old posts that had just been added to.

Thank you for your future courtesy
scott