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#4911 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 4:17 am
Subject:: Re: photos arriving now 		doha720
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Put t down to lack of practice then.
 
So what stops the kite used in lighter winds?
 
What could have been the performance on Brindabella if things went right?
 
Say it was Rare Bird tagging along with the race, would the kite be employed?\
How quick / well placed could that have been?
 
How about compared to solitarry?
 
 
I've cut my cabin top off and joing in a middle extension for greater headroom.
)SIdeCar).
Run out of resin - need another tub from FGI tropical hardener thanks.
 
 
Doug
--- On Thu, 1/1/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] photos arriving now
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, 1 January, 2009, 12:19 PM

G'day,

Nothing good to report. 

I arrived at 7 am, crew slowly appear until 10.  Safety inspection still happening.  22 crew, 8 of whom were "experts" who had sailed on the boat before and were working for the owner.   Crew meeting where we are told only the experts sail the boat, only the cooks go in the galley and only the navigators go in the nav station.  3 watches, 3 hours on, 6 off. 

Near last to leave the marina, hoist the main, then the jib and a winch lifts off the deck.  ("Oh yeah, forgot to tell you, don't use that one").  Then a spi sheet gets wrapped round the prop, stalling the engine.  We got a pretty good start, but got rolled by a couple of 52'ters by the Heads.  Up with the spi and head south.

Breeze up the bum, and slowly building, but not strong enough for first timers to fly the kite.  We were trucking along under the big (600 sq m) assymetric spinnaker a couple of hours after the start and the crew were not at all keen to try the kite (420 sq m).  Peter, (the charterer) getting increasingly irritated, then finally tells us there is a chopper coming out to take pictures in 30 minutes, get the kite up.    None of the crew move, I start setting up the lines, they start telling me why the lines can't go where I want them.  Eventually get their attention when Pete demands the spi be dropped, which it is, with the chopper now buzzing around us.   

We had agreed to drop the main to make the first kite fly easier, but the helmsman reckons he can handle the boat with the main sheeted amidships, so it stays up. 

No time for my customary spiel on who does what and why, so up goes the kite.  With a twist, which is unusual, but eventually it blows out.  We then have a discussion about what "main sheeted amidships" actually means, and it eventually is.    I call the kite trim, but the crew are not trying very hard (not helped by not being able to hear my calls), takes 10 minutes to get it half way out (usually takes about 2), and the retrieval line, which must remain slack, is not being eased so the kite is not flying properly.  Eventually the helmsman gets the boat not pointing dead down wind, the main fills, the vortex behind it rotates the kite which collapses and falls in the water.  Quick crew work and we get it out, and up goes the spi, accompanied by unbridled derision. 

I bite my tongue, explain to Pete why it didn't fly, and spend the next 2 days listening to tedious kite jokes.

Later on the breeze was plenty strong enough, but the guys were not interested, so the kite stayed in the bag.  2 am on the second night, the breeze gets up to 30-35 knots, our heroes drop the spinnaker and decide to "wait and see what the breeze does next".  As always when this is the call, the helmsman and main trimmer  stop racing.  Predictably,  the main flogs and rips in two.  We eventually get the pieces down, the heavies decide to wait a bit longer, eventually put the trisail up (takes over an hour) and we sail with this for 10 hours (breeze dropping and going aft all the time) at about 70% of the speed we should have.  Eventually shame the heavies into hoisting the cruising main (another hour+), speed picks up and we bash across Storm Bay (the only tacks since Sydney Harbour) to finish with the 40 footers.  19th out of 100, in the 5th biggest boat.  By far my worst performance in 7 Hobarts.   

Also, by far, the most benign Hobart I have done.  Shorts and bare feet until the last night, 35 knots max breeze, very little upwind, one gybe, small waves, one mild southerly change, which died almost immediately,  a dozen or so sail changes. 

I ss&s, jump on a plane and am back home 82 hours after leaving.  All my prejudices against monos (slow, tippy, cramped), stayed rigs (dangerous, expensive, difficult) and old maxis (accidents waiting to happen) are still intact. I had a few ideas on proa layouts and one of the non expert crew may end up with one, so not a total loss, but in terms of flying the kite, winning the race or having a fun time with like minded people, it was not very successful.

Top speed was 26 knots surfing down a largish wave, 40 degrees off course, which apparently cracked the deck near the mast.  Average speed under spinnaker was about 13 knots, with 15-30 knots of breeze on the quarter,  a knot of current going our way and easily surfed waves.  Requires a helmsman, and trimmers on both main and spin sheet, plus grinders to trim them for every wave.  Compares very poorly with Rare Bird in cruising mode doing 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze with sheets cleated. 

The motor had to be run one hour in 8 to provide electricity for the hydraulics, which control everything except the sheets and halyards.  Rig loads are measured in 10's of tonnes, crew and all sails have to be as far to windward as possible, at all times.  Not just uncomfortable, but unsafe, when the only thing keeping 80% of the crew on the boat is a 10 year old 4mm/0.15" thick stainless wire lifeline. 

The first boat to retire broke it's rudder shaft, filled with water and sank.  Says it all about in hull rudders, mono safety and the much vaunted safety rules in place for the race.

Lessons?  Same as always.  Don't fly kites for the first time in marginal conditions, don't let knockers trim them, don't fly them with the main up until the crew knows how to fly them.

regards,

Rob


On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
some construction on harriette series
possible completion delayed a week since
sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
Naturalist and Leeuwin.


brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
something went amisswith the equipment?

Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on Brindabelle
though no direct mention of Rob.

Doug




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4910 From: "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 7:40 am
Subject:: Re: Cape Horn sailing 		proaharry
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G'day,

Sailing a harry round Cape Horn is right up the top of the things I want to do before i get too old. 
With beam mounted rudders, I would be happier taking  RB round the Horn than any other 15m/50'ter not specifically designed for the trip, apart from Blind Date which has less weight and windage.

The engineering is for normal sailing stresses, plus significant safety factors.  I cannot see any significant additional structural loads that would be added for cruising in extreme conditions (ie parachute anchor out, sails down, rudders up) apart from maybe thicker ww hull roof core/smaller panels in case a wave broke on it,  and dividing the saloon windows into smaller areas.   The rest of the time, sailing in high latitudes is pretty much the same as "normal" apart from the cold and bigger waves.   It only gets dangerous if you keep sailing when you shouldn't, or you approach a lee shore.

There are a lot of mods I would make: big heater, smaller solid area on the bridgedeck,  better motor protection, more accessible sail controls, more sheltered helm, a second winch for the para anchor bridle, maybe bond in the beams and add more watertight bulkheads at the ends.

If I was starting from scratch, I would go with a schooner rig (less to go wrong, redundancy).

Having said this, I have not sailed round the Horn, so would be taking a lot of advice from people who had before i left.

regards,

Rob




On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

All valid arguments. One question I would still have is if a "standard" harry would be strong enough. There is alot of pressure to keep the construction very light for speed, and I am sure they are engineered for "normal" sailing stresses. My question is if conditions like this would be out of the normal and would require beefier construction to prevent breakng rudders, cracking the hull/crossbeam joints, etc. Would you take Rare Bird around Cape Horn?


- Gardner


On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

G'day,

Great footage, and an amazing star. 

Plenty of searoom, ability to lift underwater surfaces so the boat won't trip over them in big waves, low windage, double ended hulls, no cockpit to fill with water, lots of reserve buoyancy and nothing at the bow to trip over, shelter for the crew and an instantly depowerable rig are all attributes for handling storms which harrys have, and most other boats don't .  Add a drogue to slow you down, and a parachute anchor to stop you if required and big seas/strong winds should not be a problem. 

Crew getting tired, sick or scared is a different ball game, but crew on a harryproa are less likely than other than those on other boat types to suffer from at least the first two. 

regards,

Rob



On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:18 AM, chesapeake410 <chesapeake410@...> wrote:

Hello Rob and gang,

Take a look at this film from 1929. It was posted on the F-Boat group
forum. Do you think the Harryproa can sail in such conditions?? This
is most fantastic sailing account with a first hand narrative I have
ever seen. It is claimed that boat is going 16 knots at one point. I
had no idea a square sailed ship could go this fast.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1184583933122407708&hl=en

Happpy sailing,
George Kuck
Chestertown, MD





Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (12)
#4909 From: "Gardner Pomper" <gardner@...>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 3:21 am
Subject:: Re: Cape Horn sailing 		gardnerpomper
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Send Email Send Email
 
All valid arguments. One question I would still have is if a "standard" harry would be strong enough. There is alot of pressure to keep the construction very light for speed, and I am sure they are engineered for "normal" sailing stresses. My question is if conditions like this would be out of the normal and would require beefier construction to prevent breakng rudders, cracking the hull/crossbeam joints, etc. Would you take Rare Bird around Cape Horn?

- Gardner

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 9:05 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

G'day,

Great footage, and an amazing star. 

Plenty of searoom, ability to lift underwater surfaces so the boat won't trip over them in big waves, low windage, double ended hulls, no cockpit to fill with water, lots of reserve buoyancy and nothing at the bow to trip over, shelter for the crew and an instantly depowerable rig are all attributes for handling storms which harrys have, and most other boats don't .  Add a drogue to slow you down, and a parachute anchor to stop you if required and big seas/strong winds should not be a problem. 

Crew getting tired, sick or scared is a different ball game, but crew on a harryproa are less likely than other than those on other boat types to suffer from at least the first two. 

regards,

Rob



On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:18 AM, chesapeake410 <chesapeake410@...> wrote:

Hello Rob and gang,

Take a look at this film from 1929. It was posted on the F-Boat group
forum. Do you think the Harryproa can sail in such conditions?? This
is most fantastic sailing account with a first hand narrative I have
ever seen. It is claimed that boat is going 16 knots at one point. I
had no idea a square sailed ship could go this fast.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1184583933122407708&hl=en

Happpy sailing,
George Kuck
Chestertown, MD




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (12)
#4908 From: "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 2:34 am
Subject:: Re: rudder method 		proaharry
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G'day,

2 x 200 with core should do for the back part, but you will need at least 4 x 200 for the leading edge, and make sure it overlaps 20+ mm onto the trailing edge.  You should be able to taper the foam in the back part in such a way that the actual trailing edge is 4 layers of glass.

I thought I had some other questions from you to amswer, but can't find them.  If so, my apologies, and could you send them again, please.

regards,
Rob

On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:

For Rob,
 
Rob I was thinking about putting hollow blade tail (as per harriette) onto rudders for elementarry (sidecar), also use polystyrene on the leading blade. Should this be strong enough, with  2 layers 200g db?
And stiffening the trail edge would be done a diffrent way to before too.
 
Doug

--- On Wed, 31/12/08, gardnerpomper <gardner@...> wrote:
From: gardnerpomper <gardner@...>
Subject: [harryproa] 3D Rendering
To: harryproa@...
Date: Wednesday, 31 December, 2008, 4:03 PM

Hi,

I got a 3D package for Xmas, so I just posted a couple of jpg files in the Gardner's layouts
area to show a 3D version of my 40' harry layout. It won't fit in a container, but will collapse
to 12' for slips and transport.

I am not very good at this 3D stuff yet, so I left off the rudders and the interior of the boat.
Eventually I will try to get those in, along with some animations. Just thought I would post
something since the board has been quiet lately.

- Gardner




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#4907 From: "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 2:05 am
Subject:: Re: Cape Horn sailing 		proaharry
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
G'day,

Great footage, and an amazing star. 

Plenty of searoom, ability to lift underwater surfaces so the boat won't trip over them in big waves, low windage, double ended hulls, no cockpit to fill with water, lots of reserve buoyancy and nothing at the bow to trip over, shelter for the crew and an instantly depowerable rig are all attributes for handling storms which harrys have, and most other boats don't .  Add a drogue to slow you down, and a parachute anchor to stop you if required and big seas/strong winds should not be a problem. 

Crew getting tired, sick or scared is a different ball game, but crew on a harryproa are less likely than other than those on other boat types to suffer from at least the first two. 

regards,

Rob

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 7:18 AM, chesapeake410 <chesapeake410@...> wrote:

Hello Rob and gang,

Take a look at this film from 1929. It was posted on the F-Boat group
forum. Do you think the Harryproa can sail in such conditions?? This
is most fantastic sailing account with a first hand narrative I have
ever seen. It is claimed that boat is going 16 knots at one point. I
had no idea a square sailed ship could go this fast.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1184583933122407708&hl=en

Happpy sailing,
George Kuck
Chestertown, MD



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (12)
#4906 From: "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Jan 1, 2009 1:19 am
Subject:: Re: photos arriving now 		proaharry
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Send Email Send Email
 
G'day,

Nothing good to report. 

I arrived at 7 am, crew slowly appear until 10.  Safety inspection still happening.  22 crew, 8 of whom were "experts" who had sailed on the boat before and were working for the owner.   Crew meeting where we are told only the experts sail the boat, only the cooks go in the galley and only the navigators go in the nav station.  3 watches, 3 hours on, 6 off. 

Near last to leave the marina, hoist the main, then the jib and a winch lifts off the deck.  ("Oh yeah, forgot to tell you, don't use that one").  Then a spi sheet gets wrapped round the prop, stalling the engine.  We got a pretty good start, but got rolled by a couple of 52'ters by the Heads.  Up with the spi and head south.

Breeze up the bum, and slowly building, but not strong enough for first timers to fly the kite.  We were trucking along under the big (600 sq m) assymetric spinnaker a couple of hours after the start and the crew were not at all keen to try the kite (420 sq m).  Peter, (the charterer) getting increasingly irritated, then finally tells us there is a chopper coming out to take pictures in 30 minutes, get the kite up.    None of the crew move, I start setting up the lines, they start telling me why the lines can't go where I want them.  Eventually get their attention when Pete demands the spi be dropped, which it is, with the chopper now buzzing around us.   

We had agreed to drop the main to make the first kite fly easier, but the helmsman reckons he can handle the boat with the main sheeted amidships, so it stays up. 

No time for my customary spiel on who does what and why, so up goes the kite.  With a twist, which is unusual, but eventually it blows out.  We then have a discussion about what "main sheeted amidships" actually means, and it eventually is.    I call the kite trim, but the crew are not trying very hard (not helped by not being able to hear my calls), takes 10 minutes to get it half way out (usually takes about 2), and the retrieval line, which must remain slack, is not being eased so the kite is not flying properly.  Eventually the helmsman gets the boat not pointing dead down wind, the main fills, the vortex behind it rotates the kite which collapses and falls in the water.  Quick crew work and we get it out, and up goes the spi, accompanied by unbridled derision. 

I bite my tongue, explain to Pete why it didn't fly, and spend the next 2 days listening to tedious kite jokes.

Later on the breeze was plenty strong enough, but the guys were not interested, so the kite stayed in the bag.  2 am on the second night, the breeze gets up to 30-35 knots, our heroes drop the spinnaker and decide to "wait and see what the breeze does next".  As always when this is the call, the helmsman and main trimmer  stop racing.  Predictably,  the main flogs and rips in two.  We eventually get the pieces down, the heavies decide to wait a bit longer, eventually put the trisail up (takes over an hour) and we sail with this for 10 hours (breeze dropping and going aft all the time) at about 70% of the speed we should have.  Eventually shame the heavies into hoisting the cruising main (another hour+), speed picks up and we bash across Storm Bay (the only tacks since Sydney Harbour) to finish with the 40 footers.  19th out of 100, in the 5th biggest boat.  By far my worst performance in 7 Hobarts.   

Also, by far, the most benign Hobart I have done.  Shorts and bare feet until the last night, 35 knots max breeze, very little upwind, one gybe, small waves, one mild southerly change, which died almost immediately,  a dozen or so sail changes. 

I ss&s, jump on a plane and am back home 82 hours after leaving.  All my prejudices against monos (slow, tippy, cramped), stayed rigs (dangerous, expensive, difficult) and old maxis (accidents waiting to happen) are still intact. I had a few ideas on proa layouts and one of the non expert crew may end up with one, so not a total loss, but in terms of flying the kite, winning the race or having a fun time with like minded people, it was not very successful.

Top speed was 26 knots surfing down a largish wave, 40 degrees off course, which apparently cracked the deck near the mast.  Average speed under spinnaker was about 13 knots, with 15-30 knots of breeze on the quarter,  a knot of current going our way and easily surfed waves.  Requires a helmsman, and trimmers on both main and spin sheet, plus grinders to trim them for every wave.  Compares very poorly with Rare Bird in cruising mode doing 15 knots in 15 knots of breeze with sheets cleated. 

The motor had to be run one hour in 8 to provide electricity for the hydraulics, which control everything except the sheets and halyards.  Rig loads are measured in 10's of tonnes, crew and all sails have to be as far to windward as possible, at all times.  Not just uncomfortable, but unsafe, when the only thing keeping 80% of the crew on the boat is a 10 year old 4mm/0.15" thick stainless wire lifeline. 

The first boat to retire broke it's rudder shaft, filled with water and sank.  Says it all about in hull rudders, mono safety and the much vaunted safety rules in place for the race.

Lessons?  Same as always.  Don't fly kites for the first time in marginal conditions, don't let knockers trim them, don't fly them with the main up until the crew knows how to fly them.

regards,

Rob


On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines <doha720@...> wrote:

some construction on harriette series
possible completion delayed a week since
sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
Naturalist and Leeuwin.


brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
something went amisswith the equipment?

Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on Brindabelle
though no direct mention of Rob.

Doug



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4905 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:16 am
Subject:: rudder method 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
For Rob,
 
Rob I was thinking about putting hollow blade tail (as per harriette) onto rudders for elementarry (sidecar), also use polystyrene on the leading blade. Should this be strong enough, with  2 layers 200g db?
And stiffening the trail edge would be done a diffrent way to before too.
 
Doug

--- On Wed, 31/12/08, gardnerpomper <gardner@...> wrote:
From: gardnerpomper <gardner@...>
Subject: [harryproa] 3D Rendering
To: harryproa@...
Date: Wednesday, 31 December, 2008, 4:03 PM

Hi,

I got a 3D package for Xmas, so I just posted a couple of jpg files in the Gardner's layouts
area to show a 3D version of my 40' harry layout. It won't fit in a container, but will collapse
to 12' for slips and transport.

I am not very good at this 3D stuff yet, so I left off the rudders and the interior of the boat.
Eventually I will try to get those in, along with some animations. Just thought I would post
something since the board has been quiet lately.

- Gardner



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#4904 From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
Date: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:14 am
Subject:: Re: 3D Rendering 		jmichaelcraw...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

  Nice.  This goes a long way towards creating my ideal harryproa. 

  I'd like a 12' beam for transport and slips, wider beam for sailing, room for two doubles and a single or two, and a massive amount of sail area for upwind sailing on those four-knot summer days.  This appears to do it all.

   You'll likely build a boat before I do, so I look forward to watching the design become more fine-tuned, and hopefully also to a successful construction.

       - Mike

 
gardnerpomper wrote:

Hi,

I got a 3D package for Xmas, so I just posted a couple of jpg files in the Gardner's layouts
area to show a 3D version of my 40' harry layout. It won't fit in a container, but will collapse
to 12' for slips and transport.

I am not very good at this 3D stuff yet, so I left off the rudders and the interior of the boat.
Eventually I will try to get those in, along with some animations. Just thought I would post
something since the board has been quiet lately.

- Gardner


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#4903 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:08 am
Subject:: Re: Re: don't want to bother 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
its 40deg in the city but only 30 at Rottnest and coast lot cooler too.


--- On Tue, 30/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: don't want to bother
To: harryproa@...
Date: Tuesday, 30 December, 2008, 11:21 PM

-Had a look at the isobars. They bend at the coastline. As you got
closer to the shore the winds would have been more on the nose. It
would have been a lovely run on the way back-- In
harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> had a go today, but couldn't even hold a course without having to
beat back in to the coast, was gusty too, turned around at cape
bouvard and just flew effortlessly back in to Mandurah inlet. Shows
how much difference a change of direction makes!
> I usually start imagining a bigger harry eg harry, and how that
would go. Saw a lot of other sails out there since its christmas time,
mostly 30-40 foot monohull sloops, odd cat and mono ketch too, mostly
heading to dunsborough I guess for new tears.
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: don't want to bother
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 10:50 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -It would be nice sailing down to the Cape, just slightly forward of
> the beam and offshore but would be a bit of a hassle turning the
> corner-- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ >
wrote:
> >
> > wind forecast doesn't appeal to me - for a longish cruise really
> prefer aft of beam.
> > well still sailing around a bit anyhow.
> > bring it back in to home port for a few jobs while at anchor.
> (rudder hinge play bogging up, blades trying to re-fair again, mast is
> a bit tight in its tubr so needs a little sandpapering down if only I
> can lift the mast up out of its tube!)
> >  
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > From: Doug Haines <doha720@ >
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 3:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > g'day robert,
> >  
> > OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
> >  
> > Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came
> and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury.
> checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
> >  
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
> >
> > From: Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -No news on Brindabella
> >
> > Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
> > Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
> > was pretty isolated back then..
> > Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
> > off.
> > GOod luck with the weather.
> > Robert
> >
> > -- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
> > from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
> > >  
> > > Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
> > supposedly not best anchorage).
> > >  
> > > Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
> > >  
> > > Doug
> > >  
> > > Any news on Brindabellas kite?
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> > > over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> > > could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> > > with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> > > Robert
> > > Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> > > Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > some construction on harriette series
> > > > possible completion delayed a week since
> > > > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > > > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > > > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > > > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try
> it, or
> > > > something went amisswith the equipment?
> > > >
> > > > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
> > Brindabelle
> > > > though no direct mention of Rob.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Doug
> > > >
> > >
> >
>



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4902 From: "gardnerpomper" <gardner@...>
Date: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:03 am
Subject:: 3D Rendering 		gardnerpomper
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hi,

I got a 3D package for Xmas, so I just posted a couple of jpg files in the
Gardner's layouts
area to show a 3D version of my 40' harry layout. It won't fit in a container,
but will collapse
to 12' for slips and transport.

I am not very good at this 3D stuff yet, so I left off the rudders and the
interior of the boat.
Eventually I will try to get those in, along with some animations. Just thought
I would post
something since the board has been quiet lately.

- Gardner

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#4901 From: Helmut Müller <hmueller@...>
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:30 pm
Subject:: AW: Epoxy resin for sale. 		tsanakou
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello Henny,
my mail to your adress on your website was rejected; I am interested in the epoxy
Please give me some more info.
 

mail: hmueller@...

 

 

Von: harryproa@... [mailto:harryproa@...] Im Auftrag von Henny van Oortmarssen
Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. Dezember 2008 16:53
An: harryproa@...
Betreff: [harryproa] Epoxy resin for sale.

I've put on an ad on my website http://www.fram.nl/
 
Don't worry, it's not mine and I do this for a friend of mine.
It is a normal resin so I cannot use it for resin infusion.
 
Great offer for someone with building plans.
Pick up adress is in The Netherlands.
 
Contact me off line if someone is serious interested.
 
Henny van Oortmarssen


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#4900 From: "Henny van Oortmarssen" <henny@...>
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:53 pm
Subject:: Epoxy resin for sale. 		hennyf36
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I've put on an ad on my website http://www.fram.nl/
 
Don't worry, it's not mine and I do this for a friend of mine.
It is a normal resin so I cannot use it for resin infusion.
 
Great offer for someone with building plans.
Pick up adress is in The Netherlands.
 
Contact me off line if someone is serious interested.
 
Henny van Oortmarssen

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#4899 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:21 pm
Subject:: Re: don't want to bother 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
-Had a look at the isobars. They bend at the coastline. As you got
closer to the shore the winds would have been more on the nose. It
would have been a lovely run on the way back-- In
harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> had a go today, but couldn't even hold a course without having to
beat back in to the coast, was gusty too, turned around at cape
bouvard and just flew effortlessly back in to Mandurah inlet. Shows
how much difference a change of direction makes!
> I usually start imagining a bigger harry eg harry, and how that
would go. Saw a lot of other sails out there since its christmas time,
mostly 30-40 foot monohull sloops, odd cat and mono ketch too, mostly
heading to dunsborough I guess for new tears.
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: don't want to bother
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 10:50 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -It would be nice sailing down to the Cape, just slightly forward of
> the beam and offshore but would be a bit of a hassle turning the
> corner-- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ >
wrote:
> >
> > wind forecast doesn't appeal to me - for a longish cruise really
> prefer aft of beam.
> > well still sailing around a bit anyhow.
> > bring it back in to home port for a few jobs while at anchor.
> (rudder hinge play bogging up, blades trying to re-fair again, mast is
> a bit tight in its tubr so needs a little sandpapering down if only I
> can lift the mast up out of its tube!)
> >  
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > From: Doug Haines <doha720@ >
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 3:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > g'day robert,
> >  
> > OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
> >  
> > Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came
> and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury.
> checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
> >  
> > Doug
> >
> > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
> >
> > From: Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -No news on Brindabella
> >
> > Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
> > Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
> > was pretty isolated back then..
> > Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
> > off.
> > GOod luck with the weather.
> > Robert
> >
> > -- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
> > from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
> > >  
> > > Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
> > supposedly not best anchorage).
> > >  
> > > Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
> > >  
> > > Doug
> > >  
> > > Any news on Brindabellas kite?
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> > > over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> > > could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> > > with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> > > Robert
> > > Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> > > Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > some construction on harriette series
> > > > possible completion delayed a week since
> > > > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > > > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > > > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > > > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try
> it, or
> > > > something went amisswith the equipment?
> > > >
> > > > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
> > Brindabelle
> > > > though no direct mention of Rob.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Doug
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4898 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 am
Subject:: Re: Cape Horn sailing 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
It doesn't look any worse than I have experienced in Bass Strait. That
is not to say it would be very comfortable, but I can't see that a
Harry would be any worse than the boats I was working on, and I reckon
they should be more comfortable
Robert
  R--- In harryproa@..., "chesapeake410"
<chesapeake410@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Rob and gang,
>
> Take a look at this film from 1929.  It was posted on the F-Boat group
> forum.  Do you think the Harryproa can sail in such conditions?? This
> is most fantastic sailing account with a first hand narrative I have
> ever seen.  It is claimed that boat is going 16 knots at one point.  I
> had no idea a square sailed ship could go this fast.
>
>   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1184583933122407708&hl=en
>
> Happpy sailing,
> George Kuck
> Chestertown, MD
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (12)
#4897 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:31 am
Subject:: Re: Re: don't want to bother 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
had a go today, but couldn't even hold a course without having to beat back in to the coast, was gusty too, turned around at cape bouvard and just flew effortlessly back in to Mandurah inlet. Shows how much difference a change of direction makes!
I usually start imagining a bigger harry eg harry, and how that would go. Saw a lot of other sails out there since its christmas time, mostly 30-40 foot monohull sloops, odd cat and mono ketch too, mostly heading to dunsborough I guess for new tears.
 
Doug

--- On Mon, 29/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: don't want to bother
To: harryproa@...
Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 10:50 PM

-It would be nice sailing down to the Cape, just slightly forward of
the beam and offshore but would be a bit of a hassle turning the
corner-- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> wind forecast doesn't appeal to me - for a longish cruise really
prefer aft of beam.
> well still sailing around a bit anyhow.
> bring it back in to home port for a few jobs while at anchor.
(rudder hinge play bogging up, blades trying to re-fair again, mast is
a bit tight in its tubr so needs a little sandpapering down if only I
can lift the mast up out of its tube!)
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> From: Doug Haines <doha720@... >
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 3:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> g'day robert,
>  
> OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
>  
> Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came
and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury.
checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM
>
>
>
>
> -No news on Brindabella
>
> Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
> Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
> was pretty isolated back then..
> Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
> off.
> GOod luck with the weather.
> Robert
>
> -- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
> from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
> >  
> > Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
> supposedly not best anchorage).
> >  
> > Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
> >  
> > Doug
> >  
> > Any news on Brindabellas kite?
> >
> > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> > over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> > could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> > with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> > Robert
> > Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> > Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > some construction on harriette series
> > > possible completion delayed a week since
> > > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> > >
> > >
> > > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try
it, or
> > > something went amisswith the equipment?
> > >
> > > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
> Brindabelle
> > > though no direct mention of Rob.
> > >
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
>



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4896 From: "chesapeake410" <chesapeake410@...>
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:18 pm
Subject:: Cape Horn sailing 		chesapeake410
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hello Rob and gang,

Take a look at this film from 1929.  It was posted on the F-Boat group
forum.  Do you think the Harryproa can sail in such conditions?? This
is most fantastic sailing account with a first hand narrative I have
ever seen.  It is claimed that boat is going 16 knots at one point.  I
had no idea a square sailed ship could go this fast.

   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1184583933122407708&hl=en

Happpy sailing,
George Kuck
Chestertown, MD

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (12)
#4895 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:50 am
Subject:: Re: don't want to bother 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
-It would be nice sailing down to the Cape, just slightly forward of
the beam and offshore but would be a bit of a hassle turning the
corner-- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> wind forecast doesn't appeal to me - for a longish cruise really
prefer aft of beam.
> well still sailing around a bit anyhow.
> bring it back in to home port for a few jobs while at anchor.
(rudder hinge play bogging up, blades trying to re-fair again, mast is
a bit tight in its tubr so needs a little sandpapering down if only I
can lift the mast up out of its tube!)
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Mon, 29/12/08, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 3:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> g'day robert,
>  
> OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
>  
> Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came
and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury.
checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
>  
> Doug
>
> --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM
>
>
>
>
> -No news on Brindabella
>
> Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
> Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
> was pretty isolated back then..
> Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
> off.
> GOod luck with the weather.
> Robert
>
> -- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
> from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
> >  
> > Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
> supposedly not best anchorage).
> >  
> > Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
> >  
> > Doug
> >  
> > Any news on Brindabellas kite?
> >
> > --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> > over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> > could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> > with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> > Robert
> > Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> > Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> > >
> > > some construction on harriette series
> > > possible completion delayed a week since
> > > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> > >
> > >
> > > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try
it, or
> > > something went amisswith the equipment?
> > >
> > > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
> Brindabelle
> > > though no direct mention of Rob.
> > >
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4894 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:57 am
Subject:: don't want to bother 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
wind forecast doesn't appeal to me - for a longish cruise really prefer aft of beam.
well still sailing around a bit anyhow.
bring it back in to home port for a few jobs while at anchor. (rudder hinge play bogging up, blades trying to re-fair again, mast is a bit tight in its tubr so needs a little sandpapering down if only I can lift the mast up out of its tube!)
 
Doug

--- On Mon, 29/12/08, Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
To: harryproa@...
Date: Monday, 29 December, 2008, 3:56 PM

g'day robert,
 
OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
 
Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury. checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
 
Doug

--- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk> wrote:
From: Robert <cateran1949@ yahoo.co. uk>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM

-No news on Brindabella

Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
was pretty isolated back then..
Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
off.
GOod luck with the weather.
Robert

-- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
>  
> Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
supposedly not best anchorage).
>  
> Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
>  
> Doug
>  
> Any news on Brindabellas kite?
>
> --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> Robert
> Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > some construction on harriette series
> > possible completion delayed a week since
> > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> >
> >
> > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
> > something went amisswith the equipment?
> >
> > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
Brindabelle
> > though no direct mention of Rob.
> >
> >
> > Doug
> >
>




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4893 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:56 am
Subject:: Re: Re: photos arriving now 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
g'day robert,
 
OK will try get camera - old style with film ion it.
 
Made it only back down here o maudurah as was funny wind today, came and went, till sea breeze in now so call off mandurah to bunbury. checking bom now (bureaux of meteorology.
 
Doug

--- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
To: harryproa@...
Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 8:09 PM

-No news on Brindabella

Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
was pretty isolated back then..
Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
off.
GOod luck with the weather.
Robert

-- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
>  
> Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
supposedly not best anchorage).
>  
> Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
>  
> Doug
>  
> Any news on Brindabellas kite?
>
> --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> Robert
> Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > some construction on harriette series
> > possible completion delayed a week since
> > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> >
> >
> > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
> > something went amisswith the equipment?
> >
> > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
Brindabelle
> > though no direct mention of Rob.
> >
> >
> > Doug
> >
>



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4892 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:09 am
Subject:: Re: photos arriving now 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
-No news on Brindabella

Pretty wild bit of coastline down there, and a fair leg to Windy
Harbour. I spent time at Albany and denmark in the late 60's and it
was pretty isolated back then..
  Can you at least take a throwaway camera from woolies before you take
off.
  GOod luck with the weather.
  Robert



-- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days
from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
>  
> Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name,
supposedly not best anchorage).
>  
> Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
>  
> Doug
>  
> Any news on Brindabellas kite?
>
> --- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
> over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
> could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
> with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
> Robert
> Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
> Haines" <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > some construction on harriette series
> > possible completion delayed a week since
> > sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> > Naturalist and Leeuwin.
> >
> >
> > brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> > web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> > maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
> > something went amisswith the equipment?
> >
> > Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on
Brindabelle
> > though no direct mention of Rob.
> >
> >
> > Doug
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4891 From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:35 am
Subject:: Re: Re: photos arriving now 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
It's just one extra day sail from dunsborough, which is two days from Mandurah - though am starting tommorrow from Safety Bay.
 
Eyeing the coast beyond Augusta to windy harbour (good name, supposedly not best anchorage).
 
Sorry not taking any photos, camera not working!
 
Doug
 
Any news on Brindabellas kite?

--- On Sun, 28/12/08, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: photos arriving now
To: harryproa@...
Date: Sunday, 28 December, 2008, 1:56 PM

Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
could turn out as a nice article for the magazines. If you need help
with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
Robert
Robert--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Douglas Alexander Frank
Haines" <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> some construction on harriette series
> possible completion delayed a week since
> sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> Naturalist and Leeuwin.
>
>
> brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
> something went amisswith the equipment?
>
> Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on Brindabelle
> though no direct mention of Rob.
>
>
> Doug
>



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4890 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:56 am
Subject:: Re: photos arriving now 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Wow. That should be an amazing trip. Haven't been in those areas for
over forty years. Take plenty of notes and plenty of pictures and it
could turn out as a nice article for the magazines.  If you need help
with getting it into shape or editing, let me know.
Robert
  Robert--- In harryproa@..., "Douglas Alexander Frank
Haines" <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> some construction on harriette series
> possible completion delayed a week since
>  sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
> Naturalist  and Leeuwin.
>
>
> brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
> web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
> maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
> something went amisswith the equipment?
>
> Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on Brindabelle
> though no direct mention of Rob.
>
>
> Doug
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4889 From: "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@...>
Date: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:59 am
Subject:: Arttu photo 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hi Arttu,

Did you make cross beams with solid polystyrene foam?
How did that work out?
I quite enjoy shaping the foam for the bows on the Hp's,
don't know if its safer with it there not realluy an issue with all the
bulkheads.

Doug

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#4888 From: "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:09 am
Subject:: photos arriving now 		doha720
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
some construction on harriette series
possible completion delayed a week since
  sailing to Aususta on sidecar this coming week - round cape
Naturalist  and Leeuwin.


brindabella nnot seem to be trying kite!
web site says doing 11 knots, leaders doing 18!
maybe Rob missed the boat? and they are not game enough to try it, or
something went amisswith the equipment?

Commentarry on TV and Web indicated possible Kite flying on Brindabelle
though no direct mention of Rob.


Doug

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#4887 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:50 am
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
It certainly sounds a bit daunting but should be doable. It may be
easier if using a resin that needed post heating. A wetting out
machine for the cloth might help--- In harryproa@...,
George Kuck <chesapeake410@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Rob,
> Do you have a 7m x 15m table or do you laminate smaller parts of
panel and join together to form one large panel ?  I do not see how
you can vacuum bag such a large panel before the resin kicks off,
please explain how you do it.
>  
> Happy sailing ,
> George
>
> --- On Thu, 12/25/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Resin infusing honeycomb?
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 1:25 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am building with Polyore, under vacuum, but not infusing (too much
hassle for small panels).  If it was not for the desire to get a mould
finish on the outside, I would not have bothered bagging it.   I would
not infuse Polycore or Nida for the reasons stated earlier, and would
not infuse foam  unless there were time constraints.  The 15m lee hull
will be built in one panel, 7m x 15m, hand laid and vac bagged, not
infused.
>
>  
>
>
>
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (30)
#4886 From: George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:33 am
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		chesapeake410
Offline Offline
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Hello Rob,
Do you have a 7m x 15m table or do you laminate smaller parts of panel and join together to form one large panel ?  I do not see how you can vacuum bag such a large panel before the resin kicks off, please explain how you do it.
 
Happy sailing ,
George

--- On Thu, 12/25/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Resin infusing honeycomb?
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, December 25, 2008, 1:25 AM

I am building with Polyore, under vacuum, but not infusing (too much hassle for small panels).  If it was not for the desire to get a mould finish on the outside, I would not have bothered bagging it.   I would not infuse Polycore or Nida for the reasons stated earlier, and would not infuse foam  unless there were time constraints.  The 15m lee hull will be built in one panel, 7m x 15m, hand laid and vac bagged, not infused.
 
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (30)
#4885 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:48 am
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
From my understanding, preresined glass over Nidacore then bagged may
be a bit lighter than resin infusion. The underneath side should be
realtively easy to just resin on the table and then lay the honeycomb
on top. I worked out the extraweight of putting holes through
honeycomb and it added significant weight.
  It may be possible to join panels using the method of joining balsa
panels in kit form. By routing a champher on the edges, the panels are
glued together using a clamp

Congratulations Rob an the Sydney Hobart kite work


--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> I am building with Polyore, under vacuum, but not infusing (too much
hassle
> for small panels).  If it was not for the desire to get a mould
finish on
> the outside, I would not have bothered bagging it.   I would not infuse
> Polycore or Nida for the reasons stated earlier, and would not
infuse foam
> unless there were time constraints.  The 15m lee hull will be built
in one
> panel, 7m x 15m, hand laid and vac bagged, not infused.
>
> George
> I am planning on sending off for samples of various core materials to
> evaluate. My first project with these will likeley be a 10' catamaran
> dinghy, but it is all in prepartion of building a 40-50' harryproa.
Can you
> give me some information on what thicknesses I should be looking at
for the
> different core materials. I am currently considering:
>
> core cell
> polycore
> nida-core
> airex foam (for the rounded hull bottoms)
>
> Also, what other core materials might be appropriate? I don't want
to deal
> with balsa, but other than that I am open to pretty much anything.
>
> Finally, what foam are you using for the bows? It looks like your
current
> process is to build flat panels for the hulls up to within about 1m
of the
> bows and then carve the compound shape out of solid faom. Am I
correct in
> that?
>
> Rob
> The 10 footer can be 6mm H80, the 50'ter will be 15 and 20mm H80.
Plain, no
> cuts, or scrim.  You will need to perforate it by drilling 1mm holes at
> 100mm/4" centres through the stack of sheets.  Apart
Divynicell/Termanto
> foam you have covered the options I would consider.
>
> I use high density polystyrene for the bows.  Yellow Pages should
throw up
> half a dozen local suppliers. You can use any closed cell foam, but
> polystyrene is easy to glue and sand, light and cheap.  The sides of the
> hull are flat panels up to 500mm/20" from the bow, below the
waterline foam
> goes back further, depending on how narrow the hulls are.
>
> George
>
> I apologize. I hit send too early. I am also curious about the
> fiberglass/carbon. Can I get away with just using fiberglass cloth
for the
> hulls? What weight is used on a Harry? How about a Visionarry?
>
> I have also noticed that there are sometimes 2 types of fabric
listed under
> cloth, "regular" cloth and "twill". Is either of them ok for use? Do
they
> both leave the same type of surface finish?
>
> I am also curious about pricing tradeoffs. From my very inadequate
sample of
> information, I am coming up with sq ft pricing that indicates that
the vast
> majority of materials cost is in the core material. For example,
based on
> the one infusion that I have seen done:
>
> 12mm core cell : $3.50/sq ft
> Vinylester resin:  $1.25/sq ft
> Fiberglass 10oz: $0.55/sq ft
> Total:                 $5.30/sq ft
>
> But I saw some 12 oz carbon fiber twill on sale at Noah's for
$2.25/sq ft.
> While 4 times the price of the fiberglass, it only increases the total
> materials cost by $1.70/sq ft. Might it be worth just using carbon
fiber on
> the whole hull? Or maybe just on one side?
>
> I feel like I am askign alot of incredibly basic questions. There
must be a
> book or something out there that would help teach me the basics so I
would
> not have to pester people so much. Can someone recommend one to me
(purely
> in self defense <grin>) ?
>
> Rob
> Woven cloth is not used much these days as knitted cloth is
preferred.  This
> is two layers of uni knitted together which keeps the fibres
straight and
> theoretically puts les strain on the resin.  Harry has 400 gsm/12
oz, Vis
> 600 gsm/18 ounce.
>
> Regular cloth is one tow woven over one, under one.  Twill is two
tows woven
> over two/under two.  Twill looks hornier and the fibres have less
crimp, but
> it is hard to keep the edge s neat as it frays very easily.
>
> Core is the expensive part, which is why strip planking is (was in a
lot of
> places) lower cost.  That is cheap carbon.  Could use it on both
sides (not
> one) if the cost is affordable.  Problem with infusing carbon is
that it is
> very difficult to tell the wet bits from the dry bits.  I would test
with
> glass first.
>
> Your questions are not too basic.  I certainly don't mind answering
them.
> There are a number of books which have some of the information in them.
> Google and the supplier's web suites are another good source.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Gardner Pomper
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>wrote:
>
> >   Hi Rob,
> >
> > I thought you have recently been building with a honeycomb core.
Have you
> > been infusing that on just one side at a time, or is it different
enough
> > from nida core that you can do both sides at once?
> >
> > - Gardner
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
> >
> >>   G'day,
> >>
> >> Glad it went well, George.  Infusing Nida is tricky.  I would not
drill
> >> holes in the core, you will use a fair bit of extra resin.  George's
> >> suggestion would be better.  The big problem is the edges.
Exposed edges
> >> could be tapered using a hot household iron, but joined edges
will be messy
> >> as you don't want a solid resin edge for weight, bending and stress
> >> reasons.  A solution would be to  taper them both at 45 and
overlap them.
> >> On big boats, you could leave a gap and join the inner and outer
skins.
> >> You could also bog the edges before infusing.  None of these are
ideal.
> >> Unless there are labour/time considerations, i would lay it all
up wet and
> >> bag it.   I would also talk to Nida and ask for their advice. It
is possible
> >> that a thicker layer of scrim would act as a transfer medium
> >>
> >> Funny story:  I got a phone call yesterday from the guy that
bought the
> >> 420 sqm/450 sq' Outleader kite.  He makes boating movies for a
living.  He
> >> has chartered Brindabella (80' maxi) for Sydney Hobart, sold half
the crew
> >> positions ($10,000 each!) and because the forecast is for fresh
northerlies,
> >> wants to fly the kite in the race and film it for a future TV
show.  Could I
> >> come over and show them how to work the kite?
> >>
> >> So, I leave here at 0005 on Boxing day, fly to Sydney, get to the
boat at
> >> 0900 and we cast off at 1100, race starts at 1300.  A beat out of the
> >> harbour, then bear away, drop the main and hoist the kite.  Next stop
> >> Hobart.  A boat full of kite virgins, including the inevitable
few who think
> >> they know what they are doing and the world's biggest traction
kite.  Add in
> >> the stress of the race, the on board cameras, a dozen media
helicopters,
> >> huge spectator fleet and we have the recipe for a flawless
display.  ;-)   I
> >> will let you know how it went when i get back.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>wrote:
> >>
> >>>   Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I got my first hands on demonstration of vacuum resin infusion from
> >>> George Kuck of this forum last weekend. Thanks George! He was
using core
> >>> cell and had drilled holes through to allow infusion of both
sides of the
> >>> panels. I an now looking to start trying some samples myself and
I wanted to
> >>> try out nidacore. My question is, can you still infuse both
sides at once on
> >>> honeycomb? I can't tell how big the cells are, but it would seem
to me that
> >>> drilling through might open a couple and you would end up with a
big block
> >>> of resin. Is that ok? I would think it would be a stress point.
> >>>
> >>> - Gardner
> >>> York, PA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (30)
#4884 From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 7:32 am
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		cateran1949
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
-I have heard of people using bird netting on the underside as a
dipersal medium for resin infusion. I recall sending some info to ROb
on this about a year or so ago. I may be able to refind the info. It
was also mentioned in the KSS forum. -- In
harryproa@..., George Kuck <chesapeake410@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Nida Core web sight has information that may help.
>  
>
> http://www.nida-core.com/english/nidaprod_honeyinfo_working.htm
>  
> I noticed that they state that resin may go through scrim by gravity
and to avoid letting resin pool (section 3.1,c).  This may indicate
that you can not vacuum resin infuse nida core but I think it would be
interesting to experiment with small pieces to find out.  By
controlling amount of vacuum and time for resin to set (hardener %) it
may be possible to develop a method that works.  I would definitely
consider it experimental.
>  
> George
> --- On Tue, 12/23/08, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Resin infusing honeycomb?
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 9:18 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> G'day,
>
> Glad it went well, George.  Infusing Nida is tricky.  I would not
drill holes in the core, you will use a fair bit of extra resin. 
George's suggestion would be better.  The big problem is the edges. 
Exposed edges could be tapered using a hot household iron, but joined
edges will be messy as you don't want a solid resin edge for weight,
bending and stress reasons.  A solution would be to  taper them both
at 45 and overlap them.  On big boats, you could leave a gap and join
the inner and outer skins.   You could also bog the edges before
infusing.  None of these are ideal.  Unless there are labour/time
considerations, i would lay it all up wet and bag it.   I would also
talk to Nida and ask for their advice. It is possible that a thicker
layer of scrim would act as a transfer medium
>
> Funny story:  I got a phone call yesterday from the guy that bought
the 420 sq m/450 sq' Outleader kite.  He makes boating movies for a
living.  He has chartered Brindabella (80' maxi) for Sydney Hobart,
sold half the crew positions ($10,000 each!) and because the forecast
is for fresh northerlies, wants to fly the kite in the race and film
it for a future TV show.  Could I come over and show them how to work
the kite?
>
> So, I leave here at 0005 on Boxing day, fly to Sydney, get to the
boat at 0900 and we cast off at 1100, race starts at 1300.  A beat out
of the harbour, then bear away, drop the main and hoist the kite. 
Next stop Hobart.  A boat full of kite virgins, including the
inevitable few who think they know what they are doing and the world's
biggest traction kite.  Add in the stress of the race, the on board
cameras, a dozen media helicopters, huge spectator fleet and we have
the recipe for a flawless display.  ;-)   I will let you know how it
went when i get back.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Gardner Pomper
<gardner@networknow. org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I got my first hands on demonstration of vacuum resin infusion from
George Kuck of this forum last weekend. Thanks George! He was using
core cell and had drilled holes through to allow infusion of both
sides of the panels. I an now looking to start trying some samples
myself and I wanted to try out nidacore. My question is, can you still
infuse both sides at once on honeycomb? I can't tell how big the cells
are, but it would seem to me that drilling through might open a couple
and you would end up with a big block of resin. Is that ok? I would
think it would be a stress point.
>
>
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (30)
#4883 From: "Rob Denney" <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:25 am
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		proaharry
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I am building with Polyore, under vacuum, but not infusing (too much hassle for small panels).  If it was not for the desire to get a mould finish on the outside, I would not have bothered bagging it.   I would not infuse Polycore or Nida for the reasons stated earlier, and would not infuse foam  unless there were time constraints.  The 15m lee hull will be built in one panel, 7m x 15m, hand laid and vac bagged, not infused.

George
I am planning on sending off for samples of various core materials to evaluate. My first project with these will likeley be a 10' catamaran dinghy, but it is all in prepartion of building a 40-50' harryproa. Can you give me some information on what thicknesses I should be looking at for the different core materials. I am currently considering:

core cell
polycore
nida-core
airex foam (for the rounded hull bottoms)

Also, what other core materials might be appropriate? I don't want to deal with balsa, but other than that I am open to pretty much anything.

Finally, what foam are you using for the bows? It looks like your current process is to build flat panels for the hulls up to within about 1m of the bows and then carve the compound shape out of solid faom. Am I correct in that?

Rob
The 10 footer can be 6mm H80, the 50'ter will be 15 and 20mm H80.  Plain, no cuts, or scrim.  You will need to perforate it by drilling 1mm holes at 100mm/4" centres through the stack of sheets.  Apart  Divynicell/Termanto foam you have covered the options I would consider.

I use high density polystyrene for the bows.  Yellow Pages should throw up half a dozen local suppliers. You can use any closed cell foam, but polystyrene is easy to glue and sand, light and cheap.  The sides of the hull are flat panels up to 500mm/20" from the bow, below the waterline foam goes back further, depending on how narrow the hulls are.

George

I apologize. I hit send too early. I am also curious about the fiberglass/carbon. Can I get away with just using fiberglass cloth for the hulls? What weight is used on a Harry? How about a Visionarry?

I have also noticed that there are sometimes 2 types of fabric listed under cloth, "regular" cloth and "twill". Is either of them ok for use? Do they both leave the same type of surface finish?

I am also curious about pricing tradeoffs. From my very inadequate sample of information, I am coming up with sq ft pricing that indicates that the vast majority of materials cost is in the core material. For example, based on the one infusion that I have seen done:

12mm core cell : $3.50/sq ft
Vinylester resin:  $1.25/sq ft
Fiberglass 10oz: $0.55/sq ft
Total:                 $5.30/sq ft

But I saw some 12 oz carbon fiber twill on sale at Noah's for $2.25/sq ft. While 4 times the price of the fiberglass, it only increases the total materials cost by $1.70/sq ft. Might it be worth just using carbon fiber on the whole hull? Or maybe just on one side?

I feel like I am askign alot of incredibly basic questions. There must be a book or something out there that would help teach me the basics so I would not have to pester people so much. Can someone recommend one to me (purely in self defense <grin>) ?

Rob
Woven cloth is not used much these days as knitted cloth is preferred.  This is two layers of uni knitted together which keeps the fibres straight and theoretically puts les strain on the resin.  Harry has 400 gsm/12 oz, Vis 600 gsm/18 ounce. 

Regular cloth is one tow woven over one, under one.  Twill is two tows woven over two/under two.  Twill looks hornier and the fibres have less crimp, but it is hard to keep the edge s neat as it frays very easily.

Core is the expensive part, which is why strip planking is (was in a lot of places) lower cost.  That is cheap carbon.  Could use it on both sides (not one) if the cost is affordable.  Problem with infusing carbon is that it is very difficult to tell the wet bits from the dry bits.  I would test with glass first. 

Your questions are not too basic.  I certainly don't mind answering them.  There are a number of books which have some of the information in them.  Google and the supplier's web suites are another good source.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks,

- Gardner Pomper




On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

Hi Rob,


I thought you have recently been building with a honeycomb core. Have you been infusing that on just one side at a time, or is it different enough from nida core that you can do both sides at once?

- Gardner


On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

G'day,

Glad it went well, George.  Infusing Nida is tricky.  I would not drill holes in the core, you will use a fair bit of extra resin.  George's suggestion would be better.  The big problem is the edges.  Exposed edges could be tapered using a hot household iron, but joined edges will be messy as you don't want a solid resin edge for weight, bending and stress reasons.  A solution would be to  taper them both at 45 and overlap them.  On big boats, you could leave a gap and join the inner and outer skins.   You could also bog the edges before infusing.  None of these are ideal.  Unless there are labour/time considerations, i would lay it all up wet and bag it.   I would also talk to Nida and ask for their advice. It is possible that a thicker layer of scrim would act as a transfer medium

Funny story:  I got a phone call yesterday from the guy that bought the 420 sqm/450 sq' Outleader kite.  He makes boating movies for a living.  He has chartered Brindabella (80' maxi) for Sydney Hobart, sold half the crew positions ($10,000 each!) and because the forecast is for fresh northerlies, wants to fly the kite in the race and film it for a future TV show.  Could I come over and show them how to work the kite?

So, I leave here at 0005 on Boxing day, fly to Sydney, get to the boat at 0900 and we cast off at 1100, race starts at 1300.  A beat out of the harbour, then bear away, drop the main and hoist the kite.  Next stop Hobart.  A boat full of kite virgins, including the inevitable few who think they know what they are doing and the world's biggest traction kite.  Add in the stress of the race, the on board cameras, a dozen media helicopters, huge spectator fleet and we have the recipe for a flawless display.  ;-)   I will let you know how it went when i get back.

regards,

Rob





On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

Hi,


I got my first hands on demonstration of vacuum resin infusion from George Kuck of this forum last weekend. Thanks George! He was using core cell and had drilled holes through to allow infusion of both sides of the panels. I an now looking to start trying some samples myself and I wanted to try out nidacore. My question is, can you still infuse both sides at once on honeycomb? I can't tell how big the cells are, but it would seem to me that drilling through might open a couple and you would end up with a big block of resin. Is that ok? I would think it would be a stress point.

- Gardner
York, PA





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#4882 From: George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>
Date: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:09 pm
Subject:: Re: Resin infusing honeycomb? 		chesapeake410
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello,
One book I would recommend is "One-Off Airex Fibreglass Sandwich Construction" by Thomas J. Johansson.  It is a bit dated but a vary good book to get.  Note: The foam used at the time the book was written is what is now referred to as Airex R63 "Damage Tolerant foam".  Airex is now part of Alcan Corp. and they have many other types of foam in addition to R63. You should be able to find a copy on Amazon.Com
 
 
 
George Kuck,
Chestertown, MD. 

--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Resin infusing honeycomb?
To: harryproa@...
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 12:39 PM

Hi,

I apologize. I hit send too early. I am also curious about the fiberglass/carbon. Can I get away with just using fiberglass cloth for the hulls? What weight is used on a Harry? How about a Visionary?

I have also noticed that there are sometimes 2 types of fabric listed under cloth, "regular" cloth and "twill". Is either of them ok for use? Do they both leave the same type of surface finish?

I am also curious about pricing trade offs. From my very inadequate sample of information, I am coming up with sq ft pricing that indicates that the vast majority of materials cost is in the core material. For example, based on the one infusion that I have seen done:

12mm core cell : $3.50/sq ft
Vinyl Ester resin:  $1.25/sq ft
Fiberglass 10oz: $0.55/sq ft
Total:                 $5.30/sq ft

But I saw some 12 oz carbon fiber twill on sale at Noah's for $2.25/sq ft. While 4 times the price of the fiberglass, it only increases the total materials cost by $1.70/sq ft. Might it be worth just using carbon fiber on the whole hull? Or maybe just on one side?

I feel like I am asking a lot of incredibly basic questions. There must be a book or something out there that would help teach me the basics so I would not have to pester people so much. Can someone recommend one to me (purely in self defense <grin>) ?

Thanks,

- Gardner Paper
York, PA


On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Gardner Paper <gardner@networknow. org> wrote:
Hi,

I am planning on sending off for samples of various core materials to evaluate. My first project with these will likely be a 10' catamaran dinghy, but it is all in preparation of building a 40-50' harryproa. Can you give me some information on what thicknesses I should be looking at for the different core materials. I am currently considering:

core cell
polycore
nida-core
airex foam (for the rounded hull bottoms)

Also, what other core materials might be appropriate? I don't want to deal with balsa, but other than that I am open to pretty much anything.

Finally, what foam are you using for the bows? It looks like your current process is to build flat panels for the hulls up to within about 1m of the bows and then carve the compound shape out of solid foam. Am I correct in that?

Thanks,

- Gardner Paper
York, PA


On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Gardner Paper <gardner@networknow. org> wrote:
Hi Rob,

I thought you have recently been building with a honeycomb core. Have you been infusing that on just one side at a time, or is it different enough from nida core that you can do both sides at once?

- Gardner


On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Rob Denney <harryproa@gmail. com> wrote:
G'day,

Glad it went well, George.  Infusing Nida is tricky.  I would not drill holes in the core, you will use a fair bit of extra resin.  George's suggestion would be better.  The big problem is the edges.  Exposed edges could be tapered using a hot household iron, but joined edges will be messy as you don't want a solid resin edge for weight, bending and stress reasons.  A solution would be to  taper them both at 45 and overlap them.  On big boats, you could leave a gap and join the inner and outer skins.   You could also bog the edges before infusing.  None of these are ideal.  Unless there are labour/time considerations, i would lay it all up wet and bag it.   I would also talk to Nida and ask for their advice. It is possible that a thicker layer of scrim would act as a transfer medium

Funny story:  I got a phone call yesterday from the guy that bought the 420 sq m/450 sq' Outleader kite.  He makes boating movies for a living.  He has chartered Brindabella (80' maxi) for Sydney Hobart, sold half the crew positions ($10,000 each!) and because the forecast is for fresh northerlies, wants to fly the kite in the race and film it for a future TV show.  Could I come over and show them how to work the kite?

So, I leave here at 0005 on Boxing day, fly to Sydney, get to the boat at 0900 and we cast off at 1100, race starts at 1300.  A beat out of the harbour, then bear away, drop the main and hoist the kite.  Next stop Hobart.  A boat full of kite virgins, including the inevitable few who think they know what they are doing and the world's biggest traction kite.  Add in the stress of the race, the on board cameras, a dozen media helicopters, huge spectator fleet and we have the recipe for a flawless display.  ;-)   I will let you know how it went when i get back.

regards,

Rob




On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:31 AM, Gardner Paper <gardner@networknow. org> wrote:
Hi,

I got my first hands on demonstration of vacuum resin infusion from George Kuck of this forum last weekend. Thanks George! He was using core cell and had drilled holes through to allow infusion of both sides of the panels. I an now looking to start trying some samples myself and I wanted to try out nidacore. My question is, can you still infuse both sides at once on honeycomb? I can't tell how big the cells are, but it would seem to me that drilling through might open a couple and you would end up with a big block of resin. Is that ok? I would think it would be a stress point.

- Gardner
York, PA







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