harryproa : Messages : 5181-5210 of 6619

I wouldn't normally have thought about comparing a Harryproa against a
Gunboat.  The Gunboat is supposed to be about speed and accommodation
for big money but when I noticed the 'real world' reaching speed in a
bit of a sea for a Gunboat 48 in a race in the Carribean, I was not
impressed, especially for the money. I did not think it performed as
well as a Schionning waterline for much less money. Or, for that
matter, a cruising Harryproa such as Rare Bird. Given a simple choice,
not taking into account the money aspect, I actually think I would go
for an Australian performance cruising multihull over a Gunboat after
seeing examples of its performance in real conditions. There may have
been extenuating circumstance but I haven't heard them yet

Money no limit for a performance cruising boat, I wouldn't want to go
more than a 60' Harry as the ability to cruise into small places is
reduced. I don't see much advantage in going all carbon and nomex as
the payload is already a high proportion of the sailing weight and
there are other materials that are tougher, if not as stiff. Part of
the value of a Harry is that most of the boat doesn't have to be
especially stiff to take the sailing loads. At 60' there is plenty of
accommodation, reasonable load carrying capacity and any bigger it
starts to become a hassle keeping the place clean and a handful to
dock single handed.

So ,
  Money no limit, I would probably go for a 55-60'lw hull 36-40' ww
hull with a reasonable bridge deck, basalt fibre skinned over
polypropylene honeycomb with an extra internal skin of kevlar and
judicious use of carbon where needed (resilience and impact
resistance). I would consider J Taylors wing mast concept or two
telescoping wing masts. I would try to keep the sailing weight down to
3 tonnes, total displacement to 5 tonnes, and have working sail are of
about 110-140m2 or 2/3 that for a wing. I would possibly use a light
coloured bamboo veneer on the inside of the accommodation area,
providing excellent strength to weight and good looks as well. Apart
from the wings, it could probably be built from  less than half of the
Gunboat 48 to a pretty high quality finish with all the extra
dooverlackies I might want for comfort. I believe it would sail so
much better than a Gunboat in any sort of sea, which is where a
cruising boat has to make good and be much more seaworthy and
comfortable.

This is only  10-20% longer than I plan to build anyway for under $A50
000 in materials (itemising all the bits came to approximately $31 500
so 60% more for the bits I can't think of).
150m2 of skin and bulkheads at  $A50/m2, $7 500;
  140kg of carbon tow $A6000 for masts, rudderstocks, rudders,
occasional reinforcing;
another 250kg of glass, basalt and resin $3000,
extra materials for crossbeams $2000
polycarbonate for windows and hatches  $1000;
  winches, sails, strings and ground tackle, depending what I can find
2nd hand$5000
hatches if I can't be stuffed making them $2000
outboard $2500
Safety gear $2000. navigation lights, internal lights, wiring and
compass $400
Solar panels and battery $1000
fairing, sandpaper  and paint $400- I like it smooth underwater and a
non slip surface to walk on, but am not too fussed about perfection.

Extra for cruising
Compost toilet and hand pump solar shower.$400
small gas cooker plus bottle above waterline with drainage to outside $100
geotek fabric for under mattresses and mattresses $400
. If the admiral starts to have a hand in the comfort aspects of it it
could easily blow out another $20 000.

-- In harryproa@..., andrew fennell <amfitrite@...> wrote:
>
> I think what you get with a gunboat is 2 of Dick Newick's famous
tryptic:
>
> ie Speed and Accomodation
>
> The price you pay is, well, the price you pay! You also (I imagine, not
> having seen one close up) probably get a superb quality production boat
> finish (as opposed to a poor production boat finish -I'm sure we've seen
> plenty of those) and probably superb back up in terms of
after-sales....ok
> I'm guessing now!
>
> Trying to compare a gunboat to a harryproa for me is not really
viable (my
> opinion - no offence Robert!) They are just so different, Rob Denney's
> concept -I believe- is much more about the other Newick configuration
>
> ie Speed and Low-cost
>
> coupled with build-simplicity (definitely not a newick quality) and
> system-simplicity...
>
> I'm not saying that Harryproa's don't have accomodation - they do
but not on
> the scale of the gunboat..
>
> --
> I'll leave this with an interesting question:
>
> If you had gunboat money would you spend it on an all-carbon
> supersize-harryproa or a gunboat. (Answers on the back of a
fag-packet down
> the pub please!)
>
> andyf
> ps hello Mr Denney, hope all is well - congrats on getting the first
boats
> done in china, no mean feat!
>
>
>
> 2009/2/28 Robert <cateran1949@...>
>
> >   I love Rare Bird and suspect it might have the best motion and I get
> > seasick, but would be glad to be on any one of them
> >
> >
> > --- In harryproa@...
<harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>, Doug
> > Haines <doha720@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I hear that the Gunboat is a normal cat but all carbon so expensive
> > and quicker?
> > > Still you could save weight in areas other than hull material, etc.
> > Chucking stuff out for a race like water, fuel gear would change .
> > > Hope HP's are going to try  hard in B-G.
> > > Which of the popssible 3 boats over there would you want to be on?
> > > HArigami might be fun.
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Robert <cateran1949@>
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
> > > To: harryproa@... <harryproa%40yahoogroups.com.au>
> > > Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 12:16 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
> > > disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
> > > compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform
it in
> > > similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
> > > conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
> > > cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price.
Cross
> > > fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
> > > performance compares.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

#5209

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:17 am
Subject:: wind did not show up

doha720

Offline

Near calm all avo at the harriette regatta.
Rob - forecast looks similar tomorrow so will be getting ready for bussing back to Kalbarri on Monday,
and maybe cleaning out the shed.
Rob has offered me his mast and stub mast to make something with.
I am only hesitant because I will need two new sails if I cvhange the rig, but what is the point of making carbon schooner rig if I treally want to try an easy rig?
You shopuldn't try to sell sometghng that you wouldn't want to have yourself.

Doug

--- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:

From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
To: harryproa@...
Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 6:41 PM

I love Rare Bird and suspect it might have the best motion and I get
seasick, but would be glad to be on any one of them

--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> I hear that the Gunboat is a normal cat but all carbon so expensive
and quicker?
> Still you could save weight in areas other than hull material, etc.
Chucking stuff out for a race like water, fuel gear would change .
> Hope HP's are going to try hard in B-G.
> Which of the popssible 3 boats over there would you want to be on?
> HArigami might be fun.
>
> --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@ ...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 12:16 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
> disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
> compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform it in
> similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
> conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
> cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price. Cross
> fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
> performance compares.
>

#5208

From: andrew fennell <amfitrite@...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:16 am
Subject:: Re: Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat

amfitrite43

Offline

I think what you get with a gunboat is 2 of Dick Newick's famous tryptic:

ie Speed and Accomodation

The price you pay is, well, the price you pay! You also (I imagine, not having seen one close up) probably get a superb quality production boat finish (as opposed to a poor production boat finish -I'm sure we've seen plenty of those) and probably superb back up in terms of after-sales....ok I'm guessing now!

Trying to compare a gunboat to a harryproa for me is not really viable (my opinion - no offence Robert!) They are just so different, Rob Denney's concept -I believe- is much more about the other Newick configuration

ie Speed and Low-cost

coupled with build-simplicity (definitely not a newick quality) and system-simplicity...

I'm not saying that Harryproa's don't have accomodation - they do but not on the scale of the gunboat..

--
I'll leave this with an interesting question:

If you had gunboat money would you spend it on an all-carbon supersize-harryproa or a gunboat. (Answers on the back of a fag-packet down the pub please!)

andyf
ps hello Mr Denney, hope all is well - congrats on getting the first boats done in china, no mean feat!

2009/2/28 Robert <cateran1949@...>

I love Rare Bird and suspect it might have the best motion and I get
seasick, but would be glad to be on any one of them

--- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> I hear that the Gunboat is a normal cat but all carbon so expensive
and quicker?
> Still you could save weight in areas other than hull material, etc.
Chucking stuff out for a race like water, fuel gear would change .
> Hope HP's are going to try� hard in B-G.
> Which of the popssible 3 boats over there would you want to be on?
> HArigami might be fun.
>
> --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@...>

> Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 12:16 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
> disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
> compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform it in
> similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
> conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
> cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price. Cross
> fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
> performance compares.
>

#5207

From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:41 am
Subject:: Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat

cateran1949

Offline

I love Rare Bird and suspect it might have the best motion and I get
seasick, but would be glad to be on any one of them


--- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> I hear that the Gunboat is a normal cat but all carbon so expensive
and quicker?
> Still you could save weight in areas other than hull material, etc.
Chucking stuff out for a race like water, fuel gear would change .
> Hope HP's are going to try� hard in B-G.
> Which of the popssible 3 boats over there would you want to be on?
> HArigami might be fun.
>
> --- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 12:16 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
> disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
> compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform it in
> similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
> conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
> cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price. Cross
> fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
> performance compares.
>

#5206

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:59 am
Subject:: Re: Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat

doha720

Offline

I hear that the Gunboat is a normal cat but all carbon so expensive and quicker?

Still you could save weight in areas other than hull material, etc. Chucking stuff out for a race like water, fuel gear would change .

Hope HP's are going to try hard in B-G.

Which of the popssible 3 boats over there would you want to be on?

HArigami might be fun.

--- On Sat, 28/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:

From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat
To: harryproa@...
Date: Saturday, 28 February, 2009, 12:16 PM

Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform it in
similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price. Cross
fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
performance compares.

#5205

From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:16 am
Subject:: Re: contrast Rare Bird with gunboat

cateran1949

Offline

Looking at the sailing performance of the gunboat recently, I was
disappointed in its speed on a close reach. I have been hesitant to
compare one to a Vis, but I suspect that a Vis could outperform it in
similar conditions, being better able to maintain drive in choppy
conditions. I also suspect that many of the Australasian performance
cruisers would do at least as well at less than half the price. Cross
fingers for at least one entry in the Gladstone race to see how the
performance compares.

#5204

From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:42 am
Subject:: Re: web site updates

cateran1949

Offline

-I plan to build the crossbeams and rudders in the next few weeks for
a Harriette for the grandkids. I already have a 5m outrigger canoe
that I built a few years back and it would go well with converting it
to a Harry configuration. The gear would have to be built a bit
stronger for the heavy old farts to sail


.. I ma-- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>  
> I took a multi mag when I left Perth and had a good laugh at the
monstrous double decker floating 'palaces'. Sure you could get a lot
of people on but....?! Where are you going to moor these things - deep
water commercial harbours wherre the ships tie up?
> Some of the trailerable multis look about as cramped as side car too.
> Doug
>  
> BTW - hope you go for the harriette plans soon.
> Big harriette regatta tomorrow at Matilda Bay. 
>
> --- On Fri, 27/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:
>
> From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: web site updates
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Friday, 27 February, 2009, 2:46 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> An adventure in a home made boat is so much more impressive to me than
> a shiny bit of fibreglass ponsing round a harbour.
>
> A high speed sailing shot from someone else on the water would
> certainly make it more interesting.
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@ > wrote:
> >
> > Rob,
> > Â 
> > It would be nice to see a weekly update and coordinate all the
> current projects around the world - a bit of a race to see who is
> going the best.
> > It seems to be Gardner and Robert's fantasies reported on most of
> the time. (This is still better than nothing).
> > Who is the photos I only just noticed with the Harry launched (some
> younger looking guys and a girl). New South Wales?
> > Would links to seperate web sites be better or as well.
> > I was looking at a blog or something, but really need the net on at
> home to bother.
> > By the way I've written something about sailing up to Kalbarri so
> will post it here first. Really need some close up high speed shots to
> attract the magazine reader's attention.
> > Perhaps Geradlton Tim or his brother Steve in Port Denison could
> help out when I come back down that way? Or would a few slow speed
> photos be good enough?
> > Looks a bit amatuerish and backyardish compared to all the flashy
> racing boats yopu see pictured thesedays.
> > Â 
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 26/2/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@ ..> wrote:
> >
> > From: Rob Denney <harryproa@ ..>
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] web site updates
> > To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> > Date: Thursday, 26 February, 2009, 10:54 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > The updating is waiting for me to get my arse into gear and write some
> > stuff. Always seem to be waiting for something to happen. Harriette
> > and China should be the triggers I need, will get going when I have
> > some sailing info and photos from China. Feel free to help, but it is
> > the pics and text which need doing, not the actual posting.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines
> > <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
> > > What's with the updating?
> > > Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the
photos.
> > > Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
> > > I'll do it.
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese
> ones.
> > > readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.
> > >
> > >
> >
>

#5203

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:56 am
Subject:: Re: Re: web site updates

doha720

Offline

Hi Robert,

I took a multi mag when I left Perth and had a good laugh at the monstrous double decker floating 'palaces'. Sure you could get a lot of people on but....?! Where are you going to moor these things - deep water commercial harbours wherre the ships tie up?

Some of the trailerable multis look about as cramped as side car too.

Doug

BTW - hope you go for the harriette plans soon.

Big harriette regatta tomorrow at Matilda Bay.

--- On Fri, 27/2/09, Robert <cateran1949@...> wrote:

From: Robert <cateran1949@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: web site updates
To: harryproa@...
Date: Friday, 27 February, 2009, 2:46 PM

An adventure in a home made boat is so much more impressive to me than
a shiny bit of fibreglass ponsing round a harbour.

A high speed sailing shot from someone else on the water would
certainly make it more interesting.
--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Doug Haines <doha720@... > wrote:
>
> Rob,
> Â
> It would be nice to see a weekly update and coordinate all the
current projects around the world - a bit of a race to see who is
going the best.
> It seems to be Gardner and Robert's fantasies reported on most of
the time. (This is still better than nothing).
> Who is the photos I only just noticed with the Harry launched (some
younger looking guys and a girl). New South Wales?
> Would links to seperate web sites be better or as well.
> I was looking at a blog or something, but really need the net on at
home to bother.
> By the way I've written something about sailing up to Kalbarri so
will post it here first. Really need some close up high speed shots to
attract the magazine reader's attention.
> Perhaps Geradlton Tim or his brother Steve in Port Denison could
help out when I come back down that way? Or would a few slow speed
photos be good enough?
> Looks a bit amatuerish and backyardish compared to all the flashy
racing boats yopu see pictured thesedays.
> Â
> Doug
>
>
> --- On Thu, 26/2/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..> wrote:
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] web site updates
> To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
> Date: Thursday, 26 February, 2009, 10:54 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> G'day,
>
> The updating is waiting for me to get my arse into gear and write some
> stuff. Always seem to be waiting for something to happen. Harriette
> and China should be the triggers I need, will get going when I have
> some sailing info and photos from China. Feel free to help, but it is
> the pics and text which need doing, not the actual posting.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines
> <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
> > What's with the updating?
> > Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the photos.
> > Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
> > I'll do it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese
ones.
> > readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.
> >
> >
>

#5202

From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:02 am
Subject:: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

cateran1949

Offline

I think it would be an exceelent idea if you can make sure that you
can bond it well and make it thin enough. even .5 mm is 10lb a square
yard.   I wonder wheter the edges miight get a bit of deleminating
through crevice corrosion of the copper. If the copper reacted to the
sulfur in the water, there could be a bit of expansion of the
corrosion product and leading to delamination. I really don't know if
it is a problem,but I saw an article where it was done on a keel yacht
with some mixed success.
  Robert--- In harryproa@..., Gardner Pomper
<gardner@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater
sections
> of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat
> panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film,
vacuum
> bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> - Gardner
>

#5201

From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:46 am
Subject:: Re: web site updates

cateran1949

Offline

An adventure in a home made boat is so much more impressive to me than
a shiny bit of fibreglass ponsing round a harbour.

A high speed sailing shot from someone else on the water would
certainly make it more interesting.
--- In harryproa@..., Doug Haines <doha720@...> wrote:
>
> Rob,
>  
> It would be nice to see a weekly update and coordinate all the
current projects around the world - a bit of a race to see who is
going the best.
> It seems to be Gardner and Robert's fantasies reported on most of
the time. (This is still better than nothing).
> Who is the photos I only just noticed with the Harry launched (some
younger looking guys and a girl). New South Wales?
> Would links to seperate web sites be better or as well.
> I was looking at a blog or something, but really need the net on at
home to bother.
> By the way I've written something about sailing up to Kalbarri so
will post it here first. Really need some close up high speed shots to
attract the magazine reader's attention.
> Perhaps Geradlton Tim or his brother Steve in Port Denison could
help out when I come back down that way? Or would a few slow speed
photos be good enough?
> Looks a bit amatuerish and backyardish compared to all the flashy
racing boats yopu see pictured thesedays.
>  
> Doug
>
>
> --- On Thu, 26/2/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] web site updates
> To: harryproa@...
> Date: Thursday, 26 February, 2009, 10:54 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> G'day,
>
> The updating is waiting for me to get my arse into gear and write some
> stuff. Always seem to be waiting for something to happen. Harriette
> and China should be the triggers I need, will get going when I have
> some sailing info and photos from China. Feel free to help, but it is
> the pics and text which need doing, not the actual posting.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines
> <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
> > What's with the updating?
> > Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the photos.
> > Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
> > I'll do it.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese
ones.
> > readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.
> >
> >
>

#5200

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:52 am
Subject:: Re: web site updates

doha720

Offline

Rob,

It would be nice to see a weekly update and coordinate all the current projects around the world - a bit of a race to see who is going the best.

It seems to be Gardner and Robert's fantasies reported on most of the time. (This is still better than nothing).

Who is the photos I only just noticed with the Harry launched (some younger looking guys and a girl). New South Wales?

Would links to seperate web sites be better or as well.

I was looking at a blog or something, but really need the net on at home to bother.

By the way I've written something about sailing up to Kalbarri so will post it here first. Really need some close up high speed shots to attract the magazine reader's attention.

Perhaps Geradlton Tim or his brother Steve in Port Denison could help out when I come back down that way? Or would a few slow speed photos be good enough?

Looks a bit amatuerish and backyardish compared to all the flashy racing boats yopu see pictured thesedays.

Doug

--- On Thu, 26/2/09, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] web site updates
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, 26 February, 2009, 10:54 PM

G'day,

The updating is waiting for me to get my arse into gear and write some
stuff. Always seem to be waiting for something to happen. Harriette
and China should be the triggers I need, will get going when I have
some sailing info and photos from China. Feel free to help, but it is
the pics and text which need doing, not the actual posting.

regards,

Rob

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines
<doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
> What's with the updating?
> Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the photos.
> Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
> I'll do it.
>
> Doug
>
> PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese ones.
> readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.
>
>

#5199

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:32 am
Subject:: Re: Re: Niggling practical proa questions - Tim?

doha720

Offline

Hi,

Just wondering if that's Geral;dton Tim?

Doug

--- On Thu, 12/2/09, Tim Barker <clairebarker5@...> wrote:

From: Tim Barker <clairebarker5@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Niggling practical proa questions
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, 12 February, 2009, 9:40 AM

--- Ive thought about the vane steering thing and i believe you could
do it reasonably easily. If you made an "L" shaped assembly, the
upright of the L going up through the bridgedeck and mounted
centrally and could pivot you would then get a wind vane (seconhand)
mount the servo rudder on the very end of the bottom of the L and
have the control rod passing uo the centerof the pipe that makes the
L. Mount the servo gear assy and wind vane on top of the L. When you
shunt the L pivots to face away from the direction of travel just like
a sem balanced rudder, some sort of overcenter lock on the upright of
the L would allow you tolift it and lock it up out the way when not
in use. Attach a lever arm or a pulley to the pivoting upright and
have this attached somehow to your rudders and there you go.

In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Robert" <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> -There was a discussion I had with Rob for the Transpac. The
> difficulty is the boat moves so easily that apparent wind shifts and
> you just keep on accelerating further downwind. A possibility is a
> mechanism that uses the water speed to change the angle of the rudder
> to keep it on course. I though of a bibbed fishing lure attached to a
> windvane with enough lever arm to bring it up wind as you got faster.
> it might have to go around a cam for fine adjustment Only problem is
> if you catch a big fish you would round up and have to bring it aboard
> before you continued -- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au,
> arttuheinonen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Duplicate lights, manually operated. Switch on the pedestal. We put
> > red/green lights x2 on the lee hull and extra red and green lights on
> > the ww hull side . Accessory mast wont work for tricolor because the
> rig
> > shades it for the lee side. Steaming/anchor light is on the ww top.
> >
> > I would like to have a wind vane self steering, but havent found a
way
> > to do it. It is a difficult one. I guess we must forget the
electricity
> > free wind vane. Any ideas ???
> >
> > -Arttu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > > I haven't seen mention of some of the issues with proas having
> > > interchangeable bows. I assume these have all been solved, but I
> am curious
> > > how:
> > >
> > > 1) bow and stern lights - red and green have to be reversed after
> shunting.
> > > I assume duplicate sets of lights, but it is a manual operation to
> remember
> > > each time?
> > >
> > > 2) autopilots - don't these get really confused after a shunt? Do
> they also
> > > need to be duplicated? (expensive)
> > >
> > > 3) radar/chartplotters , etc ... the same basic questions
> > >
> > > 4) masthead lights? i think i saw a post somewhere that rob
> mentioned he
> > > didn't care for masthead lights, although a central tube up the
> masts could
> > > be mounted to keep the lights from rotating with the mast, but
> where else
> > > can you put the lights without the sails obscuring them?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > - Gardner Pomper
> > > York, PA
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (34)

#5198

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:55 am
Subject:: Re: More really basic fiberglass questions

proaharry

Offline

G'day.
18 ounce.  Knitted, at +/-45.   Could also use knitted at 0/90, but
not woven rovings.  Without mat backing should be easy enough, may
have to call around.

Ask Mas whether it is suitable for infusion.  I have never used their
stuff, daresay they have a number of different systems.  All will be
two part, the ratios may vary between 1:1 and 5:1.  If you are working
in the cold or are impatient, get some fast hardener for little jobs
post bagging.  Only use slow for infusing.

regards,

Rob

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am just ordering supplies to experiment with infusion, now that I finally
> built my vacuum pump system. I would like to mostly experiment with the
> materials that I am most likely to use in a 50' harryproa. I have a few
> questions:
> 1) It seems like 600gsm fiberglass is mostly mentioned. That is equivalent
> to 17 or 18oz fiberglass, I think. Would this be biaxial +/- 45 degree with
> no mat? It is hard to find biaxial without a mat backing.
> 2) I will be getting the hydropel vinylester that George is using, but I
> also want to experiment with epoxy. The MAS epoxy is listed as low
> viscosity, but I am confused about wherther this is a 2 part or 3 part
> epoxy. Some references seem to indicate that the hardener is 2 part? Do I
> need to buy both fast and slow hardener, even if I want a slow set time for
> infusion or vacuum bagging?
> 3) This is for George: Does the little measuring bottle for the hardener
> come with it, or do I have to buy it seperately, because I have not been
> able to locate one on the lbifiberglass site with the hydropel resins.
> Thanks!
> - Gardner
> York, PA
>

#5197

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:46 am
Subject:: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

proaharry

Offline

Good idea, but it will not stick with epoxy without a lot of messy
preparation, and even then it will be marginal.  Could try some other
glue.

regards,

Rob

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> I wasn't talking about copper impregnated resin; that seems to have issues
> with how much of the copper is actually exposed to the water. I mean actual
> copper sheets (or foil), laminated to the hull. The only resin would be
> between it and the hull, so the whole surface is exposed to the water.
> The only pictures are already in the forum. I had to stop work last fall
> when it got too cold. I am just getting my vacuum pump ready and hope to
> figure out enough about infusion to build some rudders this spring.
> - Gardner
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> Great idea. The copper works well in some places, not in others. But
>> it is very hard and can be scraped or sanded without harm. I had it
>> on harry and after 6 weeks, the growth was huge. An hour in the water
>> with a scraper and it was clean enough to race. The System Three
>> stuff (since sold, can't remember who to) has most copper in it, as
>> far as I know. Make sure you use copper powder as there are spme
>> that are not pure copper. I guess the finer the better. Use a non
>> thixotroped infusion epoxy and heat it while you are adding the copper
>> to thin it further. . I would premeasure the resin and hardner and
>> add the copper to each, then mix the lot when it has cooled.
>> Experiment first and let us know how it goes. Great the rough proa is
>> nearly finished. Any pics?.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> rob
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater
>> > sections
>> > of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat
>> > panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film,
>> > vacuum
>> > bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?
>> > Thoughts?
>> > - Gardner
>> >
>
>

#5196

From: George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:12 pm
Subject:: Re: More really basic fiberglass questions

chesapeake410

Offline

http://www.masepoxies.com/public/

Hello Gardner,

You may be able to get more information at the MAS website.

If you still have questions you should call and talk to someone at the MAS epoxy . I have never used there products so let use know what you think after you use some. I think they also sell the products direct so you may want to compare prices.

George

- On Thu, 2/26/09, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

#5195

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:40 pm
Subject:: Re: More really basic fiberglass questions

gardnerpomper

Offline

George,

Thanks for the link. I have also been unable to order through the website. Every item I do goes into its own cart and must wipe out the previous item. Worst I have ever seen.

Thanks so much for mentioning that the resin comes with the hardener. That isn't mentioned anywhere. For what I am doing now, I will have plenty.

I did find some 0/90 degree biaxial without mat. The +/- 45 degree always seems to have mat and that is called double bias, so I guess it is different. I ordered some biaxial from Noah's along with some of the corecell offcuts to practice with.

All the epoxies I ahve dealt with are 2 part, but the Jamestown Distributors page MAS Infusion Resion�page says: "Note: This hardener is a 2 component system (making a 3 component system)." which I find confusing.

Thanks again for the help,

- Gardner

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 4:31 PM, George Kuck <chesapeake410@...> wrote:

Hello Gardner

The measuring bottles are in the Tools section.

http://www.lbifiberglass.com/TOOLS/tool.html

�

Note. LBI includes hardener with resin but you may want to order a extra�so you don't run out if you make a lot of� batches at high end of mix range which you may do in cold weather.� I think I had problem using web sight to order so if you have problem�call them and put order in by phone.� Also be aware that the Hydropel R015 uses a different catalyst (hardener) than regular resin so if you are using both resin infusion resin and regular VE resin for hand layup you may want to order two measuring bottles and label each.

�

Biaxial without�mat is available, you just need to look harder.� I will see what I can find, I do not recall where I�have seen it.

�

With most epoxy�it is mixed�as a two part mix (different ratios).� Sometimes different speed hardener is available and you can combine slow and faster hardeners for different speeds. With MAS epoxy I beleive they sell a thinner resin specificaly for resin infusion but I have never used it.�

�

Hope this helps,

�

George Kuck,

Chestertown, MD

--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Subject: [harryproa] More really basic fiberglass questions
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 10:09 AM

Hi,

I am just ordering supplies to experiment with infusion, now that I finally built my vacuum pump system. I would like to mostly experiment with the materials that I am most likely to use in a 50' harryproa. I have a few questions:

1) It seems like 600gsm fiberglass is mostly mentioned. That is equivalent to 17 or 18oz fiberglass, I think. Would this be biaxial +/- 45 degree with no mat? It is hard to find biaxial without a mat backing.

2) I will be getting the hydropel vinylester that George is using, but I also want to experiment with epoxy. The MAS epoxy is listed as low viscosity, but I am confused about wherther this is a 2 part or 3 part epoxy. Some references seem to indicate that the hardener is 2 part? Do I need to buy both fast and slow hardener, even if I want a slow set time for infusion or vacuum bagging?

3) This is for George: Does the little measuring bottle for the hardener come with it, or do I have to buy it seperately, because I have not been able to locate one on the lbifiberglass site with the hydropel resins.

Thanks!

- Gardner

York, PA

#5194

From: George Kuck <chesapeake410@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:31 pm
Subject:: Re: More really basic fiberglass questions

chesapeake410

Offline

http://www.lbifiberglass.com/TOOLS/tool.html

Hello Gardner

The measuring bottles are in the Tools section.

Note. LBI includes hardener with resin but you may want to order a extra so you don't run out if you make a lot of batches at high end of mix range which you may do in cold weather. I think I had problem using web sight to order so if you have problem call them and put order in by phone. Also be aware that the Hydropel R015 uses a different catalyst (hardener) than regular resin so if you are using both resin infusion resin and regular VE resin for hand layup you may want to order two measuring bottles and label each.

Biaxial without mat is available, you just need to look harder. I will see what I can find, I do not recall where I have seen it.

With most epoxy it is mixed as a two part mix (different ratios). Sometimes different speed hardener is available and you can combine slow and faster hardeners for different speeds. With MAS epoxy I beleive they sell a thinner resin specificaly for resin infusion but I have never used it.

Hope this helps,

George Kuck,

Chestertown, MD

--- On Thu, 2/26/09, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Subject: [harryproa] More really basic fiberglass questions
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 10:09 AM

Hi,

I am just ordering supplies to experiment with infusion, now that I finally built my vacuum pump system. I would like to mostly experiment with the materials that I am most likely to use in a 50' harryproa. I have a few questions:

1) It seems like 600gsm fiberglass is mostly mentioned. That is equivalent to 17 or 18oz fiberglass, I think. Would this be biaxial +/- 45 degree with no mat? It is hard to find biaxial without a mat backing.

2) I will be getting the hydropel vinylester that George is using, but I also want to experiment with epoxy. The MAS epoxy is listed as low viscosity, but I am confused about wherther this is a 2 part or 3 part epoxy. Some references seem to indicate that the hardener is 2 part? Do I need to buy both fast and slow hardener, even if I want a slow set time for infusion or vacuum bagging?

3) This is for George: Does the little measuring bottle for the hardener come with it, or do I have to buy it seperately, because I have not been able to locate one on the lbifiberglass site with the hydropel resins.

Thanks!

- Gardner

York, PA

#5193

From: carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:29 pm
Subject:: Re: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

carlosproaca...

Online Now

I used them for both tilting mast on a traditional crab claw shunter - 3 sections each 4 ft, and as crossbeam - 2 sections of 4 ft each.

What I did was:

- to take a 1/2 inch schedule 40 pvc pipe and with the table saw just open a lip lengthwise.

-Then I took a big drill bit and opened 4 holes in one side of the pipe so I could insert a fastener in each hole and fasten the pvc pipe to the 2 piece section. that took care of any worries of separation of the two pieces.

-From Sail-Rite I purchase black trampoline material and ccreated a 6ft by 6 ft trampoline by sewing one of those fabricks you use to convert a normal sail into a rollerfurling groove.

I also made two holes in each 8 ft section so I could hook a racket strap underneath the trampoline

-So all you do is to tie each 2 piece section to the vaka, then to the ama, slide the groved trampoline into each tube with the pvc pipe towards the inside ,then you rotate each aka opposite to each other to make the trampoline tight, insert the two straps making an X and ratched somewhat tight - and presto you are done.

I weight 210lbs and when we go sailing I have my 3 kids with me ages 7,9,11 so I am sure it can take 300lbs easy. In the early fever days of proa I tried all kind of hot-dogging moves with the Dierken rig which was so fast but lead to incredible crashes in somewhat shallow water - many times tilling the bottom with the top of the mast - nothing happened. these things are indestructables

If you can buy a used spinnaker pole head then it can serve as the tillting point of the base - or you can buy a windsurfer base -the skinny one fits perfect.

You can see what I mean if you got to the Yahoo proafile5 in the files under Carlos extended CC sail and jugs http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file5/files/

In that series of mods - I added extra sail to a crabclaw with a zipper - as well as adding 4 more feet of aka for a total of 12 - so it looks weird. It was a very fast (too fast) and unstable boat with the extra 4 feet and all that sail - but it was exciting

If you look at the 4th picture then you can see how it looks with just 2 tubes as well as the 3 piece mast section with the two rings they sell at the mast store. in picture 5 you can see how I did the tramp - picture 10 shows the connection of the mast to the spinneaker pole to the boat

Hope this help in your decision

I have not seeng the fiberglass poles so I have no opinion - but if they feay they will stick to your hands like small needles

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
To: harryproa@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

Carlos,

Please, post some more details!

I also saw on their site that they have telescoping fiberglass poles. I wonder if they would work for masts.

- Gardner

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:04 PM, carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@ yahoo.com> wrote:

I use tube sections from the mast company - they take a licking and keep on ticking - I just love them - same size can be used for the stub mast (2 4 ft sections) and for the akas (2 set of 4 ft sections)

What I like the most is that they connect very snug, all you have to do is do a quick duck tape to avoid them separating when you do not want to - they will dissasamble into 4 ft sections that are perfect to store inside the vaka - and they do not rust

here is the site

http://www.tmastco. com/

From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@gwi. net>
To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:40:14 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

That could be a very elegant way of doing things.

It's also possible that you'd find a copper/epoxy bottom paint like Coppercoat ( http://www.copperco atusa.com/ ) to be more durable and more easily repaired, in addition to offering some additional osmosis protection.

But I can't speak to the cost of one versus the other. Neither will be cheap in the short run, but both should cost less in the long run.

Are there any environmental regulations in the Chesapeake that prevent an all-copper bottom?

- Mike

Gardner Pomper wrote:

Hi,

I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater sections of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film, vacuum bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?

Thoughts?

- Gardner

#5191

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:09 pm
Subject:: More really basic fiberglass questions

gardnerpomper

Offline

Hi,

I am just ordering supplies to experiment with infusion, now that I finally built my vacuum pump system. I would like to mostly experiment with the materials that I am most likely to use in a 50' harryproa. I have a few questions:

1) It seems like 600gsm fiberglass is mostly mentioned. That is equivalent to 17 or 18oz fiberglass, I think. Would this be biaxial +/- 45 degree with no mat? It is hard to find biaxial without a mat backing.

2) I will be getting the hydropel vinylester that George is using, but I also want to experiment with epoxy. The MAS epoxy is listed as low viscosity, but I am confused about wherther this is a 2 part or 3 part epoxy. Some references seem to indicate that the hardener is 2 part? Do I need to buy both fast and slow hardener, even if I want a slow set time for infusion or vacuum bagging?

3) This is for George: Does the little measuring bottle for the hardener come with it, or do I have to buy it seperately, because I have not been able to locate one on the lbifiberglass site with the hydropel resins.

Thanks!

- Gardner

York, PA

#5190

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:00 pm
Subject:: Re: Re: Production proa launched in China

proaharry

Offline

G'day,

The China pics are in harryproa Files under production harriette,
Doug's photos are in photos.  I post them in Files as they used to be
bigger pictures there, but looks like this is no longer the case.
next ones will go in Photos.

Either way, you should be able to see them.  Only thing I can suggest
if you can't, is to sign up as anopther user and then get them.  If
this is a problem, let me know and I will send them to you.

regards,

Rob

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 6:14 PM, odyssey43ds <geoff@...> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> I've had a look for the photos and for some reason in the files section the
> most recent
> folder I see is the Dyna rig testing from July last year. Is there somewhere
> else I need to
> look?
>
> Many thanks...
>
> Geoff
>
> --- In harryproa@..., Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> The prototype of the production harryproas being built in China was
>> launched yesterday. Unfortunately no wind, so no numbers, but
>> hopefully it will be blowing tomorrow.
>>
>> The photos can be viewed in the Files section of the Yahoo harryproa
>> chat group. The first 3 have been sold to Europe, 3,200
>> Euros/$US4,000 landed. 8 sq m/86 sq' of sail, prototype is heavy,
>> production ones will weigh 60 kgs/132lbs.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>
>

#5189

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:54 am
Subject:: Re: web site updates

proaharry

Offline

G'day,

The updating is waiting for me to get my arse into gear and write some
stuff.  Always seem to be waiting for something to happen.  Harriette
and China should be the triggers I need, will get going when I have
some sailing info and photos from China.  Feel free to help, but it is
the pics and text which need doing, not the actual posting.

regards,

Rob

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Douglas Alexander Frank Haines
<doha720@...> wrote:
> What's with the updating?
> Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the photos.
> Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
> I'll do it.
>
> Doug
>
> PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese ones.
> readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.
>
>

#5188

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:43 am
Subject:: Re: Re: Production proa launched in China

doha720

Offline

photos are in ... photos would you believe.

--- On Thu, 26/2/09, odyssey43ds <geoff@...> wrote:

From: odyssey43ds <geoff@...>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Production proa launched in China
To: harryproa@...
Date: Thursday, 26 February, 2009, 8:14 PM

Hi Rob,

I've had a look for the photos and for some reason in the files section the most recent
folder I see is the Dyna rig testing from July last year. Is there somewhere else I need to
look?

Many thanks...

Geoff

--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Rob Denney <harryproa@. ..> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> The prototype of the production harryproas being built in China was
> launched yesterday. Unfortunately no wind, so no numbers, but
> hopefully it will be blowing tomorrow.
>
> The photos can be viewed in the Files section of the Yahoo harryproa
> chat group. The first 3 have been sold to Europe, 3,200
> Euros/$US4,000 landed. 8 sq m/86 sq' of sail, prototype is heavy,
> production ones will weigh 60 kgs/132lbs.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>

#5187

From: "odyssey43ds" <geoff@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:14 am
Subject:: Re: Production proa launched in China

odyssey43ds

Offline

Hi Rob,

I've had a look for the photos and for some reason in the files section the most
recent
folder I see is the Dyna rig testing from July last year. Is there somewhere
else I need to
look?

Many thanks...

Geoff


--- In harryproa@..., Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> The prototype of the production harryproas being built in China was
> launched yesterday.  Unfortunately no wind, so no numbers, but
> hopefully it will be blowing tomorrow.
>
> The photos can be viewed in the Files section of the Yahoo harryproa
> chat group.  The first 3  have been sold to Europe, 3,200
> Euros/$US4,000 landed.  8 sq m/86 sq' of sail, prototype is heavy,
> production ones will weigh 60 kgs/132lbs.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>

#5186

From: "Douglas Alexander Frank Haines" <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:25 am
Subject:: web site updates

doha720

Offline

What's with the updating?
Lots of people wouldn't follow this message board and miss the photos.
Is it something one could learn out of a book in a few weeks, cause
I'll do it.

Doug

PS, interest in hariette - mine is for sale, cheaper than chinese ones.
readyy to go, and goes good from all reports.

#5185

From: Doug Haines <doha720@...>
Date: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:46 am
Subject:: Re: fixed - at Kalbarri

doha720

Offline

Size of boat/ strength of wind/ length of passage.

mandurah to perth with two boats, then via rotto.

--- On Tue, 24/2/09, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Subject: Re: [harryproa] fixed - at Kalbarri
To: harryproa@...
Date: Tuesday, 24 February, 2009, 6:49 AM

Forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what is wrong with southerlies? Just too strong? I am trying to track your progress on google maps, and it looks like you need to head NNW from Kalbarri, so southerlies would give a downwind run? Is running a bad point of sail for sidecar?

Btw, I have been searching the emails to find your starting point. Was it Mandurah?

Good luck!

- Gardner

On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Doug Haines <doha720@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:

Got away next day as epoxy went hard over night, and got to Kalbarri OK.

Becalmed off cliffs for hour and half. Nasty back chop off from base of cliffs very incomfortable, foretaste of Zuytdorps.

Stuck here now for ages for goos easterlies! Could be weeks seriosly lots of strong southerlies here. Might have to abandon .

Good place to leave a boat, Murchison river sheltered.

Doug

--- On Sun, 22/2/09, jjtctaylor <jtaylor412@cinci. rr.com> wrote:

From: jjtctaylor <jtaylor412@cinci. rr.com>
Subject: [harryproa] Re: rudder anxiety
To: harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au
Date: Sunday, 22 February, 2009, 2:50 AM

I think we think too hard. The actual planning limit should be force required to lift a hull.
Doesn't matter how fast that is. Even broached sliding sideways can only go as fast or
with as much force to trip the boat. I had dynamic stability analysis done on the
Visionarry design and it will trip (pivot) on the rudders. Not a big surprise.

Forces only get stupid on rudders if you go 20+ knots and turn the blade face to direction
of motion. You are going to break something. Thus rudder stops are necessary or a
watchful helmsman.

Otherwise rudder forces will always be substantially less as the boat whether crabbing
(slipping) to claw to higher point of sail or normal tiller response will only be generating
some effective angle of attack to boat direction (creating lift). Use the standard lift calc
formula or find several on-line calculators that have the density for water, air etc.

That being the planning or functional loads. Design loads use whatever factor you are
comfortable. SChinning uses I think 1.5X the loads for trip or side slip. Maybe easier to
design with some assumptions, total mass not higher than 5T, 60% or so in the WW hull
and calc lever arm center of WW hull to rudder distance. Say that is worst case design
loads and go from there. Should not be planning forces for some monster shaft, can't
afford the weight or the price of the bearings.

I will be using TidesMarine URB-3500 lower bearing (3.5") and taper to URB-3000 (3.0")
upper bearing. Shaft material 6082 Aluminum proof stress 280 N/mm2. Shaft size is
mostly for load distribution into bearing. Certainly can mess with carbon fiber shaft and
bog a steel ring for bearings. My pref for aluminum. Takes 173000 Kg to bend Al shaft.
Not going to happen. Not exceptionally heavy as it tapers into rudder itself.

JT

--- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, "Robert" <cateran1949@ ...> wrote:
>
> These are my figures. 6 tonnexmeter righting moment would give about 3
> tonne leeway prevention with all sail up or 5 to 6 tonne if 3rd reefed
> and flying a hull. At a guess of about 1m coe of rudder gives a bit to
> play with, especially considering much of the leeway prevention is
> taken up with the bow once you start pushing things. I am presuming
> that the stocks were tested to a given deflection rather than busting
> them.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@yahoogrou ps.com.au, Rob Denney <harryproa@> wrote:
> >
> > G'day,
> > >
> > > You mention moving the rudders to windward on boats that don't fly
> a hull.
> > > We had talked about this a few months ago, because it would really
> simplify
> > > the steering on boats wil telescoping beams if the rudders could
> be in line
> > > with the steering station. At that time, you mentioned testing the
> idea on a
> > > small boat, because the theory predicts that the rudders won't
> work as well
> > > there. Have you had a chance to do that? Did I misinterpret any of
> what you
> > > just said, or said before?
> >
> > Haven't tested it, but can not think of any reason why it wouldn't
> > work, given that cats steer equally well with either rudder. I still
> > plan to. One of the advantages of the beam hung rudders arrangement
> > we are using on the 15m is that it is very easy to move them along the
> > beams if required.
> >
> > > I am particularly interested, because one of the comments Doug
> made was that
> > > he would like to move the rudders further towards the ends. I am
> assuming
> > > this means that he is not getting the steering control he would
> like where
> > > they are currently placed.
> >
> > Doug's rudders are much further aft than mine and he cannot use the
> > front one. I have no problem with one, except in light air.
> >
> > > I hope you have not taken any of my comments as nay-saying.
> >
> > Of course not. I value your ideas and welcome the opportunity to
> > explain wty I do what i do.
> >
> > >I would be
> > > thrilled once all the rudder questions are resolved.
> >
> > > The 6" rudder stock calculation came from "The Nature of Boats".
> In a past
> > > discussion, jjctaylor mentioned that his rudders would be 5.5 sq
> ft, 1m tall
> > > and 0.5m deep. On page 398 of my copy, there is a graph for rudders
> > > supported at the top, which shows that a 5.5 sq ft rudder at 30
> knots needs
> > > a shaft 4.75" in diameter. I had to interpolate for 25 knots, but
> it looks
> > > about 4".
> > > That assumes the rudder is supported at the top, and the center of
> force is
> > > about 40% down the rudder, so I figured a moment arm of about 1'.
> If the
> > > support is 3' above the waterline, I make that a 4' moment arm, so
> the force
> > > would be 4x that much. I noticed that the equation for rudder
> force used the
> > > square of the speed, so I figured if I doubled the speed, that
> would be 4
> > > times the force also. They don't have 50 knots on the chart, but
> they do
> > > have 45 knots. At that speed, they specify 6.25", so I probably
> should have
> > > said you need a 6.5" diameter shaft.
> > > Anyway, big numbers.
> >
> > Big numbers indeed. Does he say how they break (twisting, sideways or
> > fore and aft)? And under what circumstances (helm hard over at 50
> > knots, falling sideways down a wave, going backwards at high speeds)?
> >
> > My take on these is:
> > As harry rudders are nearly balanced (shaft at 30% of the chord, they
> > see low twisting loads. If they are high, either the steering lines
> > slip, the wheel shaft key breaks or the tiller is pulled out of your
> > hand.
> >
> > Fore and aft the fuse breaks and the rudder kicks up.
> >
> > Sideways, the 15m/50'ter shafts are 85mm fore and aft with 20 mm/0.8"
> > carbon walls. This can easily be increased from the top of the
> > rudder to the bearing, which is clear of the water. Rudolph tested
> > his and they withstood (from memory, could be wrong), in excess of 10
> > tonnes. Our rudders rotate when going astern so don't see the same
> > loads as normal rudders. If they don't rotate for any reason, the
> > fuse will break and they will kick up.
> >
> > The bottom bearing on the 15 is about 300mm/12" above the water.
> > Also, harrys are fast, but I doubt you will ever exceed 25 knots, so I
> > would use that as the speed input. Finally, I would check and see
> > what the load cases are that Gerr uses, and his safety factors.
> > Please report back if you do any of this. Also, the loads on the
> > shaft are very dependant on how far apart the bearings are as the load
> > on the bottom bearing is that of the shaft, plus that on the top
> > bearing. The closer they are, the bigger the bottom bearing load, so
> > check to see what he allows for this. Would also be good to know what
> > he suggests for daggerboards on 50' cats, as these arguably see much
> > higher loads than harry rudders, yet have a 100mm wide x maybe 5mm
> > thick piece of carbon down each face.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > > - Gardner
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> G'day,
> > >>
> > >> What you say is mostly correct. I am addressing these problems as
> follows.
> > >> 1) The rudders can be supported down to very near the water surface,
> > >> as long as they are well faired. The shaft above the water can be
> > >> much wider than the shaft inside the rudder wide as it sees water
> less
> > >> often. this can be improved even further on boats that don't fly a
> > >> hull by moving them to windward. Even if they were unfaired, the
> > >> drag is still less than that of two daggerboard slots in a cat.
> > >> 2) The support for beam mounted rudders is very strong. The problem
> > >> with encased rudders is that between the fuse breaking and the rudder
> > >> blade actually floating free there is half a second or so of very
> high
> > >> loads which destroy the structure. With beam mounted rudders they can
> > >> be fully supported from down to kicked up. Because the fuse for beam
> > >> kick up rudders only handles the fore and aft loads, it is quite
> small
> > >> and easily tuned.
> > >> 3) Beam mounted rudders allow simple variable draft. The 15m under
> > >> construction has max draft of 1.6m, min steering draft of 800mm, min
> > >> draft 200mm.
> > >>
> > >> The 15m will be sailing in 3-6 months, so we will have some
> answers then.
> > >>
> > >> Could we see the calculations for the 6" rudder stock, please?
> > >>
> > >> Keep up the good work on sketch up. The boat looks good. I have
> > >> stayed out of the discussion, but if you have any specific questions,
> > >> please let me know.
> > >>
> > >> The bows and underwater area from the beams forward are solid foam
> > >> with glass over them and bulkheads/floors between them and the
> rest of
> > >> the hull. I think this is a better option than steeply sloped
> > >> (necessary for anything other than trees) very strongly built bows.
> > >>
> > >> regards,
> > >>
> > >> Rob
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Since I seem to be the one voicing the most concern, I think I
> should
> > >> > clarify the points that bother me.
> > >> > 1) rudders need to be effective at low speeds for shunting -
> this makes
> > >> > them
> > >> > larger than usual
> > >> > 2) rudders are the primary leeway control - also makes them larger
> > >> > 3) harryproas are fast - increasing the force on the rudder
> > >> > 4) long lever arm - most underhung rudders are supported within
> an inch
> > >> > or
> > >> > so of the top of the rudder. For harries, we are talking about
> 2-3 feet.
> > >> > This increases the level arm for the center of force from about
> 1' to
> > >> > about
> > >> > 4', quadrupling the force on the rudder. From crudely applying
> the info
> > >> > from
> > >> > Dave Gerr's "Nature of Boats", that means the rudder stock has to
> > >> > increase
> > >> > by a bit more than 50% in thickness.
> > >> > My very rough calculations for a 5.5 sq ft rudder at 25 knots,
> would
> > >> > require
> > >> > a solid stainless steel shaft 6" in diameter.
> > >> > 5) rudders have no protection - underhung rudders often have
> skegs, plus
> > >> > mini keels, giving obstacles 2 other, fairly solid things to
> hit before
> > >> > they
> > >> > hit the rudder.. Even if we went with underhung rudders on a
> harry, the
> > >> > bidirectional nature of a proa makes these bumper guards
> impractical.
> > >> > So, to summarize my concerns, the rudder supports (shaft,
> bearings, etc)
> > >> > are
> > >> > subject to a MINIMUM of 4 times the load on a comparably sized
> > >> > catamaran,
> > >> > probably considerably more. Plus, they really need to kick up,
> since
> > >> > there
> > >> > is no protection. Since they are new, an even bigger safetly margin
> > >> > should
> > >> > be built in for the unexpected (like Doug's mishap). You don't
> want the
> > >> > rudder to let go the first time you are in a gale, surfing down
> breaking
> > >> > waves.
> > >> > Now, on the other hand, I desperately want them to work. The
> combination
> > >> > of
> > >> > kickup rudders, light weight and long hulls makes the draft of a
> > >> > harryproa
> > >> > typically about a foot or so. This makes even other catamarans
> seem like
> > >> > deep draft boats. I have actually been in many places in the
> Bahamas and
> > >> > Florida keys, Cheasapeake Bay, where even a 2' draft would have
> allowed
> > >> > me
> > >> > to really have a lot of fun.
> > >> > In addition, I really do like the idea of nothing tearing a
> hole in the
> > >> > boat. I wonder if it isn't worthwhile to slope the underwater
> profile of
> > >> > the
> > >> > bows so that if you did hit a submerged object, like a log or a
> shipping
> > >> > container, that the hull would just ride right up over it,
> instead of a
> > >> > sudden impact.
> > >> > Anyway, I think I am really going to have to see some numbers, and
> > >> > especially some real on the water experience before I trust the
> rudder
> > >> > systems. I expect I will have the rest of my design all ready
> to go by
> > >> > the
> > >> > time that happens.
> > >> > - Gardner Pomper
> > >> > York, PA
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 9:02 PM, Robert <cateran1949@ > wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -The sailing loads are less on a Harry so the loads on the rudders
> > >> >> shouldn't be that much more than on other multihulls. It is
> simply a
> > >> >> case of beefing them up enough. The enough bit is what we are
> > >> >> learning. The Vis rudders work but twist a bit under high
> loads and
> > >> >> can be a bit of a handful at high loads while partially
> lifted. Bain
> > >> >> has had no troubles with his. I think the difficulties in the
> present
> > >> >> Vis system can be overcome with more tow to stop any twist and
> a cuved
> > >> >> blade rather than a straight one to keep the rudder closer to
> balanced
> > >> >> at all depths of immersion.
> > >> >> The beam hung rudders work but Doug hadn't designed for
> loading from
> > >> >> a different side while surfing. and didn't put the reinforcing
> to take
> > >> >> tension. This is simply a bit of extra glass.
> > >> >> Going to Harriette type rudders, if you don't have the kick up
> system,
> > >> >> then it is no different in principle to spade rudders, only
> having a
> > >> >> 30-50% longer lever arm. The kick up system adds complexity but
> > >> >> doesn't seem insurmountable. The point is that the boats are
> trying to
> > >> >> get away from holes in the hull that can shatter the boat if
> you hit
> > >> >> anything hard at speed. You can have crash boxes or kick up
> systems or
> > >> >> tear on the dotted line type systems, but something has to
> give. It
> > >> >> would be quite easy to put holes in the hull like most of the
> faster
> > >> >> boats with their centre boards and spade rudders, but Rob likes to
> > >> >> eliminate what he sees as a potential weakness. There have
> been quite
> > >> >> a few boats that have been sunk or immobilised from hitting things
> > >> >> with their rudders or centreboards.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I reckon the beam hung rudders will get sorted out pretty well as
> > >> >> there is nothing intrinsically difficult about them, just
> making sure
> > >> >> there is enough carbon in the right places. My only objection
> is for
> > >> >> telescoping crossbeams. Farrier had to recently organise a
> patch up
> > >> >> job on his rudders due to unexpected loadings. Rudders are a
> concern
> > >> >> for most boats.
> > >> >> My preference is either modified Vis types on outriggers or
> Harriette
> > >> >> type in a flare that gives plenty of bury. I am still working
> on the
> > >> >> kick up system to my satisfaction but I think I have a system that
> > >> >> would work and I am tempted to have a disposable, crushable bottom
> > >> >> third of the blade.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I am glad to hear about someone actually sailing these
> things. We
> > >> >> need more
> > >> >> > real life harry stories. The rudders are always a concern.
> It sounds
> > >> >> like
> > >> >> > you really stressed them out. Other than the loose gudgeon,
> can you
> > >> >> think of
> > >> >> > other stuff to make them stronger. I don't accept operator
> error,
> > >> >> because
> > >> >> > that is exactly what I am likely to do. I need a boat that
> can deal
> > >> >> with me
> > >> >> > being wrong.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Good luck on your trip.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > - Gardner
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (21)

#5184

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:51 pm
Subject:: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

gardnerpomper

Offline

Rob,

I wasn't talking about copper impregnated resin; that seems to have issues with how much of the copper is actually exposed to the water. I mean actual copper sheets (or foil), laminated to the hull. The only resin would be between it and the hull, so the whole surface is exposed to the water.

The only pictures are already in the forum. I had to stop work last fall when it got too cold. I am just getting my vacuum pump ready and hope to figure out enough about infusion to build some rudders this spring.

- Gardner

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:

G'day,

Great idea. The copper works well in some places, not in others. But
it is very hard and can be scraped or sanded without harm. I had it
on harry and after 6 weeks, the growth was huge. An hour in the water
with a scraper and it was clean enough to race. The System Three
stuff (since sold, can't remember who to) has most copper in it, as
far as I know. Make sure you use copper powder as there are spme
that are not pure copper. I guess the finer the better. Use a non
thixotroped infusion epoxy and heat it while you are adding the copper
to thin it further. . I would premeasure the resin and hardner and
add the copper to each, then mix the lot when it has cooled.
Experiment first and let us know how it goes. Great the rough proa is
nearly finished. Any pics?.

regards,

rob

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater sections
> of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat
> panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film, vacuum
> bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?
> Thoughts?
> - Gardner
>

#5183

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:44 pm
Subject:: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

proaharry

Offline

G'day,

Great idea.  The copper works well in some places, not in others.  But
it is very hard and can be scraped or sanded  without harm.  I had it
on harry and after 6 weeks, the growth was huge.  An hour in the water
with a scraper and it was clean enough to race.  The System Three
stuff (since sold, can't remember who to) has most copper in it, as
far as I know.   Make sure you use copper powder as there are spme
that are not pure copper.  I guess the finer the better.  Use a non
thixotroped infusion epoxy and heat it while you are adding the copper
to thin it further.  .  I would premeasure the resin and hardner and
add the copper to each, then mix the lot when it has cooled.
Experiment first and let us know how it goes.  Great the rough proa is
nearly finished.  Any pics?.

regards,

rob

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:29 AM, Gardner Pomper <gardner@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater sections
> of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat
> panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film, vacuum
> bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?
> Thoughts?
> - Gardner
>

#5182

From: Rob Denney <harryproa@...>
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:36 pm
Subject:: Re: Re: Production proa launched in China

proaharry

Offline

G'day,

Thanks, definitely a buzz.  Fair bit of other stuff happening or about
to (in the loosest possible sense) so some fun times ahead.

regards,

Rob

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:32 PM, pkeck2 <pkeck2@...> wrote:
> Rob, congrats! That must be so cool for you to see how far this all
> has come.
>
> Phil
>
> --- In harryproa@..., Rob Denney <harryproa@...> wrote:
>>
>> G'day,
>>
>> The prototype of the production harryproas being built in China was
>> launched yesterday. Unfortunately no wind, so no numbers, but
>> hopefully it will be blowing tomorrow.
>>
>> The photos can be viewed in the Files section of the Yahoo harryproa
>> chat group. The first 3 have been sold to Europe, 3,200
>> Euros/$US4,000 landed. 8 sq m/86 sq' of sail, prototype is heavy,
>> production ones will weigh 60 kgs/132lbs.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>
>

#5181

From: Gardner Pomper <gardner@...>
Date: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:20 am
Subject:: Re: Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

gardnerpomper

Offline

Carlos,

Please, post some more details!

I also saw on their site that they have telescoping fiberglass poles. I wonder if they would work for masts.

- Gardner

On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 8:04 PM, carlos Solanilla <carlosproacarlos@...> wrote:

I use tube sections from the mast company - they take a licking and keep on ticking - I just love them - same size can be used for the stub mast (2 4 ft sections) and for the akas (2 set of 4 ft sections)

What I like the most is that they connect very snug, all you have to do is do a quick duck tape to avoid them separating when you do not want to - they will dissasamble into 4 ft sections that are perfect to store inside the vaka� - and they do not rust

�

here is the site

http://www.tmastco.com/

�

�

From: Mike Crawford <jmichael@...>
To: harryproa@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:40:14 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Copper cladding proa hulls?

� That could be a very elegant way of doing things.

� It's also possible that you'd find a copper/epoxy bottom paint like Coppercoat ( http://www.copperco atusa.com/ ) to be more durable and more easily repaired, in addition to offering some additional osmosis protection.

� But I can't speak to the cost of one versus the other.� Neither will be cheap in the short run, but both should cost less in the long run.

� Are there any environmental regulations in the Chesapeake that prevent an all-copper bottom?

�� - Mike

Gardner Pomper wrote:

Hi,

I was wondering if it made sense to apply copper to the underwater sections of a harryproa. My thinking was that if you have the hull as a big flat panel on the table already, why not put on a layer of copper film, vacuum bagged to the underwater part of the hull before bending it up?

Thoughts?

- Gardner