G'day,

Forgot to mention.  No problem with alloy beams (apart from weight,
corrosion and fatigue ;-), although they would need to be built up with bog
on the ends to get the taper.  Building beams and booms is a fair bit of
work.  We are looking at smarter ways to keep the time and cost down.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Richardson" <atrichardson@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Moulds


> I'm in a similar situation but
> I will indicate my interest in a non folding harrigami with full size
bunks.
>
> My preference would be for straight F/glass in vinylester (cheaper than
foam but not as light it may be faster to )
>
> For me it would need to be supplied in unassembled form with gelcoat
finish. No windows or fittings supplied
>
> I would prefer the boards to be supplied unfitted and the steering mount
kit supplied
>
> I personally would like a mast/boom that didn't require any stays at all,
to be supplied with the kit(one less thing to worry about)
> Yes I know its all adding to the weight but I would prefer a weight
penalty for some strength in a vital area of the boat. (not that it isn't
already strong enough I just like the thought of no fittings)
>
> If aluminium beams are cheaper then they would do (I know you hate metal
Rob but labour to build beams may be dearer than the aluminium)
>
> I would prefer the plans to be supplied with the boat but not include the
drawings etc for that which is supplied with the kit.
> That way I am able to stay with the intended fitout and retain similarity
with the other boats.
>
> These are only my thoughts and the size of the boat is not an essential.
It just fits my needs. I would keep it in a hardstand and a bigger one may
be difficult
> I reside in Brisbane Australia (Not far from where Mark is building the
Visionarry)
> Rgs
> Tony
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jim Baltaxe
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:32 AM
>   Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
>   Hi Al
>
>   I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where I could
commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the
implications? Where would it be located? What building techniques would be
used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still strip-plank? Sorry if
these are dumb questions, but I'd like to know
>
>   Jim Baltaxe
>   ITS Desktop Support
>   Victoria University of Wellington
>   NEW ZEALAND
>   (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
>   Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
>   "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
>   > -----Original Message-----
>   > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
>   > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
>   > To: harryproa@...
>   > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi all,
>   >
>   > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
>   > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
>   > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
>   > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
>   > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > Col Campey
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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>
>
>

Hi Rob

What you say makes a great deal of sense and is very encouraging. Let's break
the Chicken & Egg cycle and at least pick a small design to work on. If you do
develop the camping Elementarry (simple folding design, nothing fancy like
telescoping beams) I'll take the plunge and get in the queue. Perhaps if enough
of us do so, you can work up the numbers so we all know what we are commiting
to. I would then be happy to put in a deposit to help with the development work.

Anyone else willing?

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 13 November 2003 3:59
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
>
>
> G'day,
>
> A thought provoking letter.  Thanks.
>
> The reasons for building a small one are
> 1) The moulding technique is new.  We need to know what is
> involved before
> moving up to bigger ones
> 2) The big ones are the ones that sell, but more than half
> the mailing list
> are interested in small ones.  As we have not had a small one
> available, it
> is no surprise that we haven't sold any.
> 3) With a cheap mould, amortisation requires far fewer sales
> than for a
> glossy, expensive mould.
> 4) From a practical viewpoint, having a small proa available
> for people to
> learn about shunting makes sense.
> 5) I have a heap of experiments (rigs and folding beams for
> starters) I want
> to try.  Testing them on my 12m is expensive and time
> consuming, not least
> because it is afloat and 20 minutes drive away.  Being able
> to test things
> on a trailerable boat would speed things up considerably.
>
> As to running before we can walk, this is valid, but there is
> not much we
> can do about it.  Harryproas have been demand led since we
> first offered
> plans.  Moulded boats are not much of a deviation from the
> original idea
> which was fast, roomy boats which are cheap and easy to build.  In the
> bigger sizes, foam is lighter.  With the moulding technique,
> the building
> will be easier, and for the professional builder, probably
> cheaper.  Finding
> the crossover point is another reason for building a small
> boat mould as
> well as the large ones.
>
> As far as I can see,  whether they are cheaper than other
> boats is not so
> much about surface area as it is about marketing.  A Hobie 18
> costs the best
> part of $20 grand.  I would be amazed if they cost one third
> of this to
> build.  So, while we won't get the huge sales generated by
> full page colour
> ads and a sales organisation in every port, we should have a
> lower cost
> product.  Maybe.  Finding out all this stuff is why we are
> building the
> boat.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
>
> > Around here the usual reason for building small molded boats is to
> > imediately launch off into ever larger sizes, it is rarely
> commercial
> > to build small ones unless the volume is massive.
> >
> > I am not sure where this gets us.  Why not finish what we have
> > started and get some functioning, final form, boats in the water
> > before hiking off on another tack?
> >
> > I am also a little surprised that we would commercialize the small
> > end when so far all the orders have been for boats larger than a
> > standard Harry.
> >
> > This boat is not inherantly cheaper than any other boat of a similar
> > surface area, with zerro interior, and carbon accessories.  Is the
> > email demand for elementary really strong enough to support this
> > project at a realistic price.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

A thought provoking letter.  Thanks.

The reasons for building a small one are
1) The moulding technique is new.  We need to know what is involved before
moving up to bigger ones
2) The big ones are the ones that sell, but more than half the mailing list
are interested in small ones.  As we have not had a small one available, it
is no surprise that we haven't sold any.
3) With a cheap mould, amortisation requires far fewer sales than for a
glossy, expensive mould.
4) From a practical viewpoint, having a small proa available for people to
learn about shunting makes sense.
5) I have a heap of experiments (rigs and folding beams for starters) I want
to try.  Testing them on my 12m is expensive and time consuming, not least
because it is afloat and 20 minutes drive away.  Being able to test things
on a trailerable boat would speed things up considerably.

As to running before we can walk, this is valid, but there is not much we
can do about it.  Harryproas have been demand led since we first offered
plans.  Moulded boats are not much of a deviation from the original idea
which was fast, roomy boats which are cheap and easy to build.  In the
bigger sizes, foam is lighter.  With the moulding technique, the building
will be easier, and for the professional builder, probably cheaper.  Finding
the crossover point is another reason for building a small boat mould as
well as the large ones.

As far as I can see,  whether they are cheaper than other boats is not so
much about surface area as it is about marketing.  A Hobie 18 costs the best
part of $20 grand.  I would be amazed if they cost one third of this to
build.  So, while we won't get the huge sales generated by full page colour
ads and a sales organisation in every port, we should have a lower cost
product.  Maybe.  Finding out all this stuff is why we are building the
boat.

Regards,

Rob


> Around here the usual reason for building small molded boats is to
> imediately launch off into ever larger sizes, it is rarely commercial
> to build small ones unless the volume is massive.
>
> I am not sure where this gets us.  Why not finish what we have
> started and get some functioning, final form, boats in the water
> before hiking off on another tack?
>
> I am also a little surprised that we would commercialize the small
> end when so far all the orders have been for boats larger than a
> standard Harry.
>
> This boat is not inherantly cheaper than any other boat of a similar
> surface area, with zerro interior, and carbon accessories.  Is the
> email demand for elementary really strong enough to support this
> project at a realistic price.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

Not a pest at all.  I appreciate any comments, from any source (even you,
Fritz  :-).

The camping layout we discussed had telescoping beams operated by lines, the
same as extendable bowsprits.  This would make it trailerable, and also
could be slept in on the trailer.  The windward half of the trampoline is
solid (maybe slatted, or perforated for hull flying windage reduction).  The
windward hull has a pop top with cloth sides to give near standing headroom.
The lee side of the cloth sides extends over the solid tramp as a cover for
the bed.  May also fit a 2 person table in the ww hull.

A second option is a dome tent on the tramp, which would be much less hassle
to build, but does not give the option of making a cup of tea from the
comfort of your bed.

All just conjecture at the moment.  Any input much appreciated.

regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 4:43 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds


> Hi Andrew
>
> Could I be so bold as to ask you what some of those offline ideas might
be? I'm also very interested in an Elementarry with a camping layout. I sort
of stopped writing to Rob because I felt I was being more of a pest than an
imminent customer. NOT that Rob every made me feel that way. His patience
was much appreciated.
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
> ITS Desktop Support
> Victoria University of Wellington
> NEW ZEALAND
> (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
> Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Dickson [mailto:andrew@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 4:48
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
> >
> >
> > Me too! Elementarry for starters. I might need a custom ww
> > hull though,
> > to accommodate those ideas we were discussing offlist, Rob.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Grona Jr, Robert J. [mailto:PPL_RJG@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 2:57 AM
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
> >
> > Count me in!
> >
> > I am interested in a camper on up to Harrigami but only if the folding
> > for trailering is available.
> >
> > Thanks Bob G.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:29 AM
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
> >
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > I also like the look of wood, but have a problem with sanding
> > it to get
> > it
> > fair!  The proposed technique uses a strip planked mould (probably mdf
> > as it
> > is cheap and consistent), which, because of new mould releases and the
> > fact
> > the exterior will be painted, needs only be fair, not particulalry
> > smooth.
> > This saves a huge amount of labour getting from 40 grit to a highly
> > polished
> > surface.  Our mould (half a hull) will be glassed, bogged,
> > sanded fair,
> > then
> > a thick coat of epoxy primer, cleaned up with an orbital sander.  Pour
> > on
> > mould release, use a rag to wet all of the mould and you are ready to
> > start
> > laminating.  Amazing stuff.
> >
> > Using long outlife resin, mould flanges and slit foam, it will be
> > possible
> > to lay up the entire half hull in one shot.  Rebating the joins
> > minimises
> > post mould clean up.  Paint prep will be a light sand (maybe
> > peel ply),
> > then
> > primer and top coat as per normal.  The only bog will be to cover the
> > joins.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

The loads are determined by the righting moment, but the layup of the mast,
and of the hull is very dependant on where those loads are applied.

The original Harry is in bits.  The lee hull (with it's second deck and
single beam) is in the local yachtclub hard stand, along with my cruising
hull.  The original windward hull was given to a guy who chopped it up and
used it to build a rather cool looking bridge deck cabin on his 10.5m/35'
cat.  The beams and mast are on 2 different tris in Brisbane .  The rudders
and cassettes are on the harry in Maine.  The boom is in the pile of old
boat bits down the side of my house.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Towability of extended harry


> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...> wrote:
> > G'day,
> >
>   The lw hull cannot be much lower without beam height
> > restrictions.  The original Harry had a mast tower and the beams
> mounted on
> > posts, so height overall was pretty similar. A rule of thumb is
> that 10% of
> > the mast height should be between the bearings.  12m mast, 1.2m lw
> hull
> > height.  Can be less, but the loads go up pretty spectacularly.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rob,
> I thought the strength required was based upon the righting moment?
> Thanks for the patience. It helps me appreciate the design
> understanding the engineering restrictions. Slabsides could be
> marginally better in heavy chop at moderate speeds but would severely
> cut down on accommodation. I still love the look of original Harry,
> but I can understand the changes. Step hulls would be a pain to build
> and require extra strengthening and weight and would probably be
> worse at slow speeds in chop.
> What has happened to Harry?
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:32 AM
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Towability of extended harry
> >
> >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...>
> wrote:
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so
> > > much the
> > > > width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits
> under
> > > the
> > > > overhang.
> > >
> > > I assume that you have wracked your brains over the issue, asking
> > > such questions such as
> > >
> > > Does the lw hull have to rise so high in the middle? In the
> original
> > > Harry it isn't. Is the height needed for support of the spar or
> are
> > > there other reasons? Can the sides of the ww hull be made more
> > > vertical?
> > > Origami is certainly a severe design constraint for a boat.
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate and
> > > > trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.
> Going
> > > round
> > > > corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but
> otherwise
> > > it is
> > > > all pretty easy.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > rob
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > > > To: <harryproa@...>
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:45 AM
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Would it be possible to truncate the lw side of the ww hulls
> with
> > > a
> > > > > flat side to exactly 2.5m for towing. This would still provide
> > > almost
> > > > > the same sleeping width. Are there other issues such as
> length and
> > > > > overhang that limit towing size.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

Not at the moment.  All a bit chicken and egg, unfortunately.  We need the
orders to pay for the moulds, but can't quote prices till we have built a
boat.    The circuit breaker is either some external finance, or starting
small and seeing how they develop, which is what we intend to do.  The
expressions of interest we have had are  much appreciated.  Hopefully the
price will justify an order.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:12 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds


> Hi Rob
>
> Any idea of a rough price for such an Elementarry, assuming several orders
to defray mould costs etc.?
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
> ITS Desktop Support
> Victoria University of Wellington
> NEW ZEALAND
> (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
> Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 2:20
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: Re: [harryproa] Moulds
> >
> >
> > G'day,
> >
> > We have a relatively low cost technique for building foam/epoxy hulls
> > (painted post mould) using cheap female moulds.  It is a
> > technique I used on
> > W (12m cat in NZ).  Nothing very tricky about it, it just
> > uses some new
> > technology in resins and mould releases.
> >
> > I am pretty sure the overall cost will be cheaper (more
> > expensive materials,
> > much less labour, lighter boat) than a strip planked boat,
> > but until we have
> > built one, we won't know for sure.  The plan is to build a
> > mould for an
> > Elementarry (8m with 4m windward hull) to debug and improve
> > the process,
> > then if it works, move onto bigger ones.  We would also like
> > to get an idea
> > of how long the moulds last,  (they get heated to cure the
> > resin, which
> > traditionally does strange things to moulds)  and whether this can be
> > improved.  For this, we need a few orders.
> >
> > The moulds will be in Coffs Harbour (midway Sydney-Brisbane),
> > from where
> > shipping via container would be the best bet.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:32 AM
> > Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds
> >
> >
> > > Hi Al
> > >
> > > I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage
> > where I could
> > commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the
> > implications? Where would it be located? What building
> > techniques would be
> > used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still
> > strip-plank? Sorry if
> > these are dumb questions, but I'd like to know
> > >
> > > Jim Baltaxe
> > > ITS Desktop Support
> > > Victoria University of Wellington
> > > NEW ZEALAND
> > > (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
> > >
> > >
> > > Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> > > "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called
> > research, would
> > it?" -- Albert Einstein
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
> > > > To: harryproa@...
> > > > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > How many list members would be interested in having
> > hulls, for any of
> > > > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for
> > our American
> > > > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their
> > boat? If there
> > > > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull
> > becomes less
> > > > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Col Campey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
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>
>
>

Hi Jim,

For sure, no probs.

I really want a small boat to go camp-cruising on, and my background in
kayak expeditioning gives me the desire to:
- make sails and pedal propulsion the primary propulsion methods (I got
tendonitis from long term paddling, and anyway I consider paddling to be
bad ergonomics for extended trips)
- be able to sleep onboard, for the times when you can't get ashore,
because of access & safety issues

My ideas were to:
- have a removable platform which can be placed over the trampoline, so
a normal dome tent can be pitched at night. No need to develop a custom
canopy when a dome tent is aerodynamic (low windage at anchor) and has
good insect & weather protection. For sailing, the platform can be
disassembled and stacked against the ww hull - it could form a nice
raised bench to helm from. I would envisage using three or four stiff
planks as the platform, and using snap-buckles to affix them together.
- possibly incorporate a "pop-top" section in the ww hull. I would like
to be able to sit inside the ww hull at a small table to cook/eat/relax.
It will be reasonably narrow, but one person could face aft and the
other forward, both facing a drop-table between them. The pop-top
section of deck would lift maybe 5' into the air and be suspended there
by telescoping poles, and insect/weather protective material could be
suspended from the popped-up deck down to the rest of the ww hull. It
would be a cosy little all-weather place to relax at anchor before
retiring into the tent.
- incorporate a pedal power unit which can propel the boat in light
weather. I figure that the hulls will be very easily driven, and modern
pedal power units can easily propel faster than kayak-type paddling.
This (http://www.microship.com/bobstuart/spinfin.html) is the type of
unit I'm considering although there are others, and this technology is
evolving.

A boat with these features would be very versatile - I envisage extended
trips down inland rivers (plenty of great rivers around the world), as
well as selected coastal cruising / gunk holing.

I'm keen for anyone's comments or suggestions on these ideas.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Baltaxe [mailto:jim.baltaxe@...]
Sent: Thursday, 13 November 2003 7:14 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds

Hi Andrew

Could I be so bold as to ask you what some of those offline ideas might
be? I'm also very interested in an Elementarry with a camping layout. I
sort of stopped writing to Rob because I felt I was being more of a pest
than an imminent customer. NOT that Rob every made me feel that way. His
patience was much appreciated.

Enjoy

Jim Baltaxe

Around here the usual reason for building small molded boats is to
imediately launch off into ever larger sizes, it is rarely commercial
to build small ones unless the volume is massive.

I am not sure where this gets us.  Why not finish what we have
started and get some functioning, final form, boats in the water
before hiking off on another tack?

I am also a little surprised that we would commercialize the small
end when so far all the orders have been for boats larger than a
standard Harry.

This boat is not inherantly cheaper than any other boat of a similar
surface area, with zerro interior, and carbon accessories.  Is the
email demand for elementary really strong enough to support this
project at a realistic price.

Hi Andrew

Could I be so bold as to ask you what some of those offline ideas might be? I'm
also very interested in an Elementarry with a camping layout. I sort of stopped
writing to Rob because I felt I was being more of a pest than an imminent
customer. NOT that Rob every made me feel that way. His patience was much
appreciated.

Enjoy

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Dickson [mailto:andrew@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 4:48
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
>
>
> Me too! Elementarry for starters. I might need a custom ww
> hull though,
> to accommodate those ideas we were discussing offlist, Rob.
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grona Jr, Robert J. [mailto:PPL_RJG@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 2:57 AM
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
>
> Count me in!
>
> I am interested in a camper on up to Harrigami but only if the folding
> for trailering is available.
>
> Thanks Bob G.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:29 AM
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Moulds
>
>
> G'day,
>
> I also like the look of wood, but have a problem with sanding
> it to get
> it
> fair!  The proposed technique uses a strip planked mould (probably mdf
> as it
> is cheap and consistent), which, because of new mould releases and the
> fact
> the exterior will be painted, needs only be fair, not particulalry
> smooth.
> This saves a huge amount of labour getting from 40 grit to a highly
> polished
> surface.  Our mould (half a hull) will be glassed, bogged,
> sanded fair,
> then
> a thick coat of epoxy primer, cleaned up with an orbital sander.  Pour
> on
> mould release, use a rag to wet all of the mould and you are ready to
> start
> laminating.  Amazing stuff.
>
> Using long outlife resin, mould flanges and slit foam, it will be
> possible
> to lay up the entire half hull in one shot.  Rebating the joins
> minimises
> post mould clean up.  Paint prep will be a light sand (maybe
> peel ply),
> then
> primer and top coat as per normal.  The only bog will be to cover the
> joins.
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>

Me too! Elementarry for starters. I might need a custom ww hull though,
to accommodate those ideas we were discussing offlist, Rob.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Grona Jr, Robert J. [mailto:PPL_RJG@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 2:57 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Re: Moulds

Count me in!

I am interested in a camper on up to Harrigami but only if the folding
for trailering is available.

Thanks Bob G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:29 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Moulds


G'day,

I also like the look of wood, but have a problem with sanding it to get
it
fair!  The proposed technique uses a strip planked mould (probably mdf
as it
is cheap and consistent), which, because of new mould releases and the
fact
the exterior will be painted, needs only be fair, not particulalry
smooth.
This saves a huge amount of labour getting from 40 grit to a highly
polished
surface.  Our mould (half a hull) will be glassed, bogged, sanded fair,
then
a thick coat of epoxy primer, cleaned up with an orbital sander.  Pour
on
mould release, use a rag to wet all of the mould and you are ready to
start
laminating.  Amazing stuff.

Using long outlife resin, mould flanges and slit foam, it will be
possible
to lay up the entire half hull in one shot.  Rebating the joins
minimises
post mould clean up.  Paint prep will be a light sand (maybe peel ply),
then
primer and top coat as per normal.  The only bog will be to cover the
joins.

Regards,





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
harryproa-unsubscribe@...



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http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
   The lw hull cannot be much lower without beam height
> restrictions.  The original Harry had a mast tower and the beams
mounted on
> posts, so height overall was pretty similar. A rule of thumb is
that 10% of
> the mast height should be between the bearings.  12m mast, 1.2m lw
hull
> height.  Can be less, but the loads go up pretty spectacularly.
>
>
>
> Rob,
I thought the strength required was based upon the righting moment?
Thanks for the patience. It helps me appreciate the design
understanding the engineering restrictions. Slabsides could be
marginally better in heavy chop at moderate speeds but would severely
cut down on accommodation. I still love the look of original Harry,
but I can understand the changes. Step hulls would be a pain to build
and require extra strengthening and weight and would probably be
worse at slow speeds in chop.
What has happened to Harry?


>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:32 AM
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Towability of extended harry
>
>
> > --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...>
wrote:
> > > G'day,
> > >
> > > This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so
> > much the
> > > width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits
under
> > the
> > > overhang.
> >
> > I assume that you have wracked your brains over the issue, asking
> > such questions such as
> >
> > Does the lw hull have to rise so high in the middle? In the
original
> > Harry it isn't. Is the height needed for support of the spar or
are
> > there other reasons? Can the sides of the ww hull be made more
> > vertical?
> > Origami is certainly a severe design constraint for a boat.
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate and
> > > trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.
Going
> > round
> > > corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but
otherwise
> > it is
> > > all pretty easy.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > rob
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > > To: <harryproa@...>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:45 AM
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry
> > >
> > >
> > > > Would it be possible to truncate the lw side of the ww hulls
with
> > a
> > > > flat side to exactly 2.5m for towing. This would still provide
> > almost
> > > > the same sleeping width. Are there other issues such as
length and
> > > > overhang that limit towing size.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Robert
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

Hi Rob

Any idea of a rough price for such an Elementarry, assuming several orders to
defray mould costs etc.?

Enjoy

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 2:20
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
> G'day,
>
> We have a relatively low cost technique for building foam/epoxy hulls
> (painted post mould) using cheap female moulds.  It is a
> technique I used on
> W (12m cat in NZ).  Nothing very tricky about it, it just
> uses some new
> technology in resins and mould releases.
>
> I am pretty sure the overall cost will be cheaper (more
> expensive materials,
> much less labour, lighter boat) than a strip planked boat,
> but until we have
> built one, we won't know for sure.  The plan is to build a
> mould for an
> Elementarry (8m with 4m windward hull) to debug and improve
> the process,
> then if it works, move onto bigger ones.  We would also like
> to get an idea
> of how long the moulds last,  (they get heated to cure the
> resin, which
> traditionally does strange things to moulds)  and whether this can be
> improved.  For this, we need a few orders.
>
> The moulds will be in Coffs Harbour (midway Sydney-Brisbane),
> from where
> shipping via container would be the best bet.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:32 AM
> Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
> > Hi Al
> >
> > I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage
> where I could
> commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the
> implications? Where would it be located? What building
> techniques would be
> used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still
> strip-plank? Sorry if
> these are dumb questions, but I'd like to know
> >
> > Jim Baltaxe
> > ITS Desktop Support
> > Victoria University of Wellington
> > NEW ZEALAND
> > (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
> >
> >
> > Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> > "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called
> research, would
> it?" -- Albert Einstein
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
> > > To: harryproa@...
> > > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > How many list members would be interested in having
> hulls, for any of
> > > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for
> our American
> > > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their
> boat? If there
> > > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull
> becomes less
> > > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Col Campey
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Count me in!

I am interested in a camper on up to Harrigami but only if the folding
for trailering is available.

Thanks Bob G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:29 AM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Moulds


G'day,

I also like the look of wood, but have a problem with sanding it to get
it
fair!  The proposed technique uses a strip planked mould (probably mdf
as it
is cheap and consistent), which, because of new mould releases and the
fact
the exterior will be painted, needs only be fair, not particulalry
smooth.
This saves a huge amount of labour getting from 40 grit to a highly
polished
surface.  Our mould (half a hull) will be glassed, bogged, sanded fair,
then
a thick coat of epoxy primer, cleaned up with an orbital sander.  Pour
on
mould release, use a rag to wet all of the mould and you are ready to
start
laminating.  Amazing stuff.

Using long outlife resin, mould flanges and slit foam, it will be
possible
to lay up the entire half hull in one shot.  Rebating the joins
minimises
post mould clean up.  Paint prep will be a light sand (maybe peel ply),
then
primer and top coat as per normal.  The only bog will be to cover the
joins.

Regards,





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day,

The extra weight of a non cored hull will be significant, particularly in
the smaller boats.    A gel coat finish is not envisaged as it requires a
huge amount more work on the moulds, albeit for a large time saving on the
mouldings.  Maybe when/if demand is higher, although even then, I would not
be keen on using vinylester resin/gel coat for weight and longevity of the
finish, secondary bonding issues for bulkheads etc, and the bloody awful
smell!      No reason why we couldn't supply the components painted, though.

Regards,

Rob


> I'm in a similar situation but
> I will indicate my interest in a non folding harrigami with full size
bunks.
>
> My preference would be for straight F/glass in vinylester (cheaper than
foam but not as light it may be faster to )
>
> For me it would need to be supplied in unassembled form with gelcoat
finish. No windows or fittings supplied
>
> I would prefer the boards to be supplied unfitted and the steering mount
kit supplied
>
> I personally would like a mast/boom that didn't require any stays at all,
to be supplied with the kit(one less thing to worry about)
> Yes I know its all adding to the weight but I would prefer a weight
penalty for some strength in a vital area of the boat. (not that it isn't
already strong enough I just like the thought of no fittings)
>
> If aluminium beams are cheaper then they would do (I know you hate metal
Rob but labour to build beams may be dearer than the aluminium)
>
> I would prefer the plans to be supplied with the boat but not include the
drawings etc for that which is supplied with the kit.
> That way I am able to stay with the intended fitout and retain similarity
with the other boats.
>
> These are only my thoughts and the size of the boat is not an essential.
It just fits my needs. I would keep it in a hardstand and a bigger one may
be difficult
> I reside in Brisbane Australia (Not far from where Mark is building the
Visionarry)
> Rgs
> Tony
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jim Baltaxe
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:32 AM
>   Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
>   Hi Al
>
>   I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where I could
commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the
implications? Where would it be located? What building techniques would be
used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still strip-plank? Sorry if
these are dumb questions, but I'd like to know
>
>   Jim Baltaxe
>   ITS Desktop Support
>   Victoria University of Wellington
>   NEW ZEALAND
>   (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
>   Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
>   "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
>   > -----Original Message-----
>   > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
>   > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
>   > To: harryproa@...
>   > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi all,
>   >
>   > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
>   > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
>   > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
>   > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
>   > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > Col Campey
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

With our hull shapes, it may be feasible to use the same moulds for various
size boats.  For example, an 18m/60' hull 2m/6'8" wide  could have near flat
surfaces for the middle 3m/10' and near flat areras 300mm/1' either side of
the keel and deck join.  To make a 15m/50 footer,  1.5m/5' wide, leave out
the near flat strips.  This would mean an extra join lengthways, but thiis
area has heaps of reinforcing anyway, so this is not such a big chore.

Another option is to cut and shut the bows to make a 15m long hull from an
18m mould.  Similar to constant camber methods.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "jjtctaylor" <jtaylor412@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:48 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Moulds


> Of course despite the material debate which for me is best left to
> the designer to optimize weight/ strength and fairness,   the
> issue remains which hulls and what sizes.  My needs might not
> match yours and Rob/ Mark have not finalized their product
> offerings  as anything standard.  Molds I concur are a good idea
> for production runs.  Not sure if they are sure who is doing any
> volume boat building.  Investors are elusive so expansion in this
> market is a problem.
>
> Sounds OK if the logistics and financials can meet in one place
> for a standard hull.  I need 60 ft or close to it , LW hull. WW hull at
> 40 ft.   Berthing space in North America is getting worse annually
> for larger boats.  Market for larger is significantly handicapped.
> Aside from all the other design and visual uniqueness, folding
> bows are not on my list of options.  At least not yet.  I do believe
> there are others who want larger.
>
> Regards,
>
> JT
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "colcampey"
> <cjcampey@i...> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > How many list members would be interested in having hulls,
> for any of
> > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
> American
> > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If
> there
> > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes
> less
> > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Col Campey
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

I also like the look of wood, but have a problem with sanding it to get it
fair!  The proposed technique uses a strip planked mould (probably mdf as it
is cheap and consistent), which, because of new mould releases and the fact
the exterior will be painted, needs only be fair, not particulalry smooth.
This saves a huge amount of labour getting from 40 grit to a highly polished
surface.  Our mould (half a hull) will be glassed, bogged, sanded fair, then
a thick coat of epoxy primer, cleaned up with an orbital sander.  Pour on
mould release, use a rag to wet all of the mould and you are ready to start
laminating.  Amazing stuff.

Using long outlife resin, mould flanges and slit foam, it will be possible
to lay up the entire half hull in one shot.  Rebating the joins minimises
post mould clean up.  Paint prep will be a light sand (maybe peel ply), then
primer and top coat as per normal.  The only bog will be to cover the joins.

Regards,

Rob----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:54 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Moulds


> -Hi,
>  I'm with jim with wanting to know more about what type of moulds and
> from what materials. I still really like the idea of plantation grown
> low rot, low alergenic, light timber as a core. I think it looks
> pretty amazing if left unpainted internally and it always seems a
> pity to end up painting the outside to protect the resin.
> I must admit that vertical foam strips on a female mould look pretty
> good as a method and avoiding fairing would be a wonderful.
>  Do you propose using a well faired boat as a plug to make a female
> mould. I will probably be building an extended Harry, so people will
> be welcome to use it as a plug if deemed fair enough - especially if
> they help me fair it- providing, of course, they have bought their
> plans. I don't know how many boats would need to be built before it
> pays its way, especiall as the hull building seems such a small part
> of the time building.
> Robert
>
> -- In harryproa@..., "colcampey" <cjcampey@i...> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any
> of
> > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
> American
> > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If
> there
> > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
> > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Col Campey
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

G'day,

We have a relatively low cost technique for building foam/epoxy hulls
(painted post mould) using cheap female moulds.  It is a technique I used on
W (12m cat in NZ).  Nothing very tricky about it, it just uses some new
technology in resins and mould releases.

I am pretty sure the overall cost will be cheaper (more expensive materials,
much less labour, lighter boat) than a strip planked boat, but until we have
built one, we won't know for sure.  The plan is to build a mould for an
Elementarry (8m with 4m windward hull) to debug and improve the process,
then if it works, move onto bigger ones.  We would also like to get an idea
of how long the moulds last,  (they get heated to cure the resin, which
traditionally does strange things to moulds)  and whether this can be
improved.  For this, we need a few orders.

The moulds will be in Coffs Harbour (midway Sydney-Brisbane), from where
shipping via container would be the best bet.


Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Baltaxe" <jim.baltaxe@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:32 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds


> Hi Al
>
> I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where I could
commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the
implications? Where would it be located? What building techniques would be
used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still strip-plank? Sorry if
these are dumb questions, but I'd like to know
>
> Jim Baltaxe
> ITS Desktop Support
> Victoria University of Wellington
> NEW ZEALAND
> (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
> Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
> "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
> > To: harryproa@...
> > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
> > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
> > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
> > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
> > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Col Campey
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi, I would certainly be interested in hulls from moulds ( visionary),
especially foam sandwich!. I know wood is an excellent mat'l but it is labor
intensive and drives up the labour costs . Lastly, moulded hulls will get you
sailing a lot faster and isn't that where we want to be?
Cheers Peter.
PS we still have to see one of these sail!

iginal Message -----
   From: colcampey
   To: harryproa@...
   Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 6:14 PM
   Subject: [harryproa] Moulds


   Hi all,

   How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
   the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
   brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
   are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
   than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.

   Regards,

   Col Campey


   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   harryproa-unsubscribe@...



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we all have our own idea's (needs) for our own boat, but if
you think about it, if a couple of the harry range of boats were
moulded by mixing and matching components (and one off building
some) a range of different boats could be built.
  I like the idea of harry lw hull with Robs racing ww hull, but if
VH was a production boat I could use VH, lw hull and beams and one
off build Robs racing ww hull (so what extra 10'lw hull = extra 2
knots baot speed).
I have fitted out two hull and deck shells previously and found not
only did I save time, I think I also got a better result because I
was really motivated for the detaily stuff (which I think set my
boats apart from the rest) because this was at the start of my
projects not at the end.
Any way something else I've been meaning to say is I've been lucky
enough to have a look at both the harrys Mark has built (building)
when you see these boats in real life, man they are awsome, it makes
you want to sail one (not to many things about sailing boats are
rational!)
I'm stoked!
John
  --- In harryproa@..., "Tony Richardson"
<atrichardson@b...> wrote:
>  I'm in a similar situation but
> I will indicate my interest in a non folding harrigami with full
size bunks.
>
> My preference would be for straight F/glass in vinylester (cheaper
than foam but not as light it may be faster to )
>
> For me it would need to be supplied in unassembled form with
gelcoat finish. No windows or fittings supplied
>
> I would prefer the boards to be supplied unfitted and the steering
mount kit supplied
>
> I personally would like a mast/boom that didn't require any stays
at all, to be supplied with the kit(one less thing to worry about)
> Yes I know its all adding to the weight but I would prefer a
weight penalty for some strength in a vital area of the boat. (not
that it isn't already strong enough I just like the thought of no
fittings)
>
> If aluminium beams are cheaper then they would do (I know you hate
metal Rob but labour to build beams may be dearer than the aluminium)
>
> I would prefer the plans to be supplied with the boat but not
include the drawings etc for that which is supplied with the kit.
> That way I am able to stay with the intended fitout and retain
similarity with the other boats.
>
> These are only my thoughts and the size of the boat is not an
essential. It just fits my needs. I would keep it in a hardstand and
a bigger one may be difficult
> I reside in Brisbane Australia (Not far from where Mark is
building the Visionarry)
> Rgs
> Tony
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jim Baltaxe
>   To: harryproa@...
>   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:32 AM
>   Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
>   Hi Al
>
>   I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where
I could commit (anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more
about the implications? Where would it be located? What building
techniques would be used to take the hulls off it? Straight F/glass?
Still strip-plank? Sorry if these are dumb questions, but I'd like
to know
>
>   Jim Baltaxe
>   ITS Desktop Support
>   Victoria University of Wellington
>   NEW ZEALAND
>   (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982
>
>
>   Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
>   "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research,
would it?" -- Albert Einstein
>
>
>   > -----Original Message-----
>   > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@i...]
>   > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
>   > To: harryproa@...
>   > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
>   >
>   >
>   > Hi all,
>   >
>   > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for
any of
>   > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
American
>   > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat?
If there
>   > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes
less
>   > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > Col Campey
>   >
>   >
>   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>   > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>   >
>   >
>   >
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm in a similar situation but
I will indicate my interest in a non folding harrigami with full size bunks.

My preference would be for straight F/glass in vinylester (cheaper than foam but
not as light it may be faster to )

For me it would need to be supplied in unassembled form with gelcoat finish. No
windows or fittings supplied

I would prefer the boards to be supplied unfitted and the steering mount kit
supplied

I personally would like a mast/boom that didn't require any stays at all, to be
supplied with the kit(one less thing to worry about)
Yes I know its all adding to the weight but I would prefer a weight penalty for
some strength in a vital area of the boat. (not that it isn't already strong
enough I just like the thought of no fittings)

If aluminium beams are cheaper then they would do (I know you hate metal Rob but
labour to build beams may be dearer than the aluminium)

I would prefer the plans to be supplied with the boat but not include the
drawings etc for that which is supplied with the kit.
That way I am able to stay with the intended fitout and retain similarity with
the other boats.

These are only my thoughts and the size of the boat is not an essential. It just
fits my needs. I would keep it in a hardstand and a bigger one may be difficult
I reside in Brisbane Australia (Not far from where Mark is building the
Visionarry)
Rgs
Tony
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jim Baltaxe
   To: harryproa@...
   Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 9:32 AM
   Subject: RE: [harryproa] Moulds


   Hi Al

   I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where I could commit
(anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the implications?
Where would it be located? What building techniques would be used to take the
hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still strip-plank? Sorry if these are dumb
questions, but I'd like to know

   Jim Baltaxe
   ITS Desktop Support
   Victoria University of Wellington
   NEW ZEALAND
   (04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


   Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
   "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


   > -----Original Message-----
   > From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
   > Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
   > To: harryproa@...
   > Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
   >
   >
   > Hi all,
   >
   > How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
   > the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
   > brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
   > are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
   > than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
   >
   > Regards,
   >
   > Col Campey
   >
   >
   > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
   >
   >
   >
   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
   > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
   >
   >
   >

   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
   harryproa-unsubscribe@...



   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Of course despite the material debate which for me is best left to
the designer to optimize weight/ strength and fairness,   the
issue remains which hulls and what sizes.  My needs might not
match yours and Rob/ Mark have not finalized their product
offerings  as anything standard.  Molds I concur are a good idea
for production runs.  Not sure if they are sure who is doing any
volume boat building.  Investors are elusive so expansion in this
market is a problem.

Sounds OK if the logistics and financials can meet in one place
for a standard hull.  I need 60 ft or close to it , LW hull. WW hull at
40 ft.   Berthing space in North America is getting worse annually
for larger boats.  Market for larger is significantly handicapped.
Aside from all the other design and visual uniqueness, folding
bows are not on my list of options.  At least not yet.  I do believe
there are others who want larger.

Regards,

JT

--- In harryproa@..., "colcampey"
<cjcampey@i...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> How many list members would be interested in having hulls,
for any of
> the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
American
> brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If
there
> are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes
less
> than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Col Campey

-Hi,
  I'm with jim with wanting to know more about what type of moulds and
from what materials. I still really like the idea of plantation grown
low rot, low alergenic, light timber as a core. I think it looks
pretty amazing if left unpainted internally and it always seems a
pity to end up painting the outside to protect the resin.
I must admit that vertical foam strips on a female mould look pretty
good as a method and avoiding fairing would be a wonderful.
  Do you propose using a well faired boat as a plug to make a female
mould. I will probably be building an extended Harry, so people will
be welcome to use it as a plug if deemed fair enough - especially if
they help me fair it- providing, of course, they have bought their
plans. I don't know how many boats would need to be built before it
pays its way, especiall as the hull building seems such a small part
of the time building.
Robert

-- In harryproa@..., "colcampey" <cjcampey@i...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any
of
> the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
American
> brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If
there
> are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
> than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Col Campey

--- In harryproa@..., "colcampey" <cjcampey@i...>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any
of
> the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our
American
> brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If
there
> are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
> than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Col Campey

Hi Al

I'd be tempted to say yes, but I'm not quite at the stage where I could commit
(anyone else) to anything yet. Can you say a bit more about the implications?
Where would it be located? What building techniques would be used to take the
hulls off it? Straight F/glass? Still strip-plank? Sorry if these are dumb
questions, but I'd like to know

Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 029 200 6982


Klein bottle for rent.  Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" --
Albert Einstein


> -----Original Message-----
> From: colcampey [mailto:cjcampey@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2003 11:15
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: [harryproa] Moulds
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
> the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
> brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
> are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
> than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.
>
> Regards,
>
> Col Campey
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Hi all,

How many list members would be interested in having hulls, for any of
the Harryproas, produced from a mould ( That's mold for our American
brethren ) to get a head start in the buiding of their boat? If there
are enough then the cost of the fairest, lightest hull becomes less
than a one-off hull, covering the cost of the mo(u)ld as well.

Regards,

Col Campey

G'day,

The towing width is not the problem, but if you wanted more internal bunk
width, then slab sides on the ww hull would help, at the expense of looks
and internal space.  The lw hull cannot be much lower without beam height
restrictions.  The original Harry had a mast tower and the beams mounted on
posts, so height overall was pretty similar. A rule of thumb is that 10% of
the mast height should be between the bearings.  12m mast, 1.2m lw hull
height.  Can be less, but the loads go up pretty spectacularly.

Harrigami as built was 8' wide (2.4m), so there is another 100mm (maybe
300mm if you don't mind an oversize load and sign) to be picked up there.
My trailer was also built around an existing frame, and could be improved
considerably.

Regards,

Rob



----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:32 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Towability of extended harry


> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...> wrote:
> > G'day,
> >
> > This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so
> much the
> > width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits under
> the
> > overhang.
>
> I assume that you have wracked your brains over the issue, asking
> such questions such as
>
> Does the lw hull have to rise so high in the middle? In the original
> Harry it isn't. Is the height needed for support of the spar or are
> there other reasons? Can the sides of the ww hull be made more
> vertical?
> Origami is certainly a severe design constraint for a boat.
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate and
> > trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.  Going
> round
> > corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but otherwise
> it is
> > all pretty easy.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > rob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:45 AM
> > Subject: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry
> >
> >
> > > Would it be possible to truncate the lw side of the ww hulls with
> a
> > > flat side to exactly 2.5m for towing. This would still provide
> almost
> > > the same sleeping width. Are there other issues such as length and
> > > overhang that limit towing size.
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@t...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so
much the
> width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits under
the
> overhang.

I assume that you have wracked your brains over the issue, asking
such questions such as

Does the lw hull have to rise so high in the middle? In the original
Harry it isn't. Is the height needed for support of the spar or are
there other reasons? Can the sides of the ww hull be made more
vertical?
Origami is certainly a severe design constraint for a boat.
Robert







  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate and
> trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.  Going
round
> corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but otherwise
it is
> all pretty easy.
>
> Regards,
>
> rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:45 AM
> Subject: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry
>
>
> > Would it be possible to truncate the lw side of the ww hulls with
a
> > flat side to exactly 2.5m for towing. This would still provide
almost
> > the same sleeping width. Are there other issues such as length and
> > overhang that limit towing size.
> >
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

G'day,

Spoke to Jim last night.  Beams are not far off.  There have been a few
other developements, which may or may not happen, but are certainly keeping
us excited.  These revolve around a possible investor paying for the tooling
for us to start mass production of these and some of the bigger boats. More
news as (and if) things develop.

Regards,

Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grona Jr, Robert J." <PPL_RJG@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:19 AM
Subject: RE: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry


> So give us the latest on the folding Harry for easy of tailoring without
> demounting??
>
> Thanks Bob G.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:24 PM
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry
>
>
> G'day,
>
> This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so much the
> width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits under the
> overhang.  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate
> and
> trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.  Going round
> corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but otherwise it
> is
> all pretty easy.
>
> Regards,
>
> rob
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

So give us the latest on the folding Harry for easy of tailoring without
demounting??

Thanks Bob G.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:24 PM
To: harryproa@...
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry


G'day,

This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so much the
width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits under the
overhang.  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate
and
trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.  Going round
corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but otherwise it
is
all pretty easy.

Regards,

rob




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day,

This is what I did on Harrigami.  The limiting factor is not so much the
width of the bunks, as the height of the lw hull which sits under the
overhang.  Here the rules are not a problem, as long as the number plate and
trailer lights are within a metre of the rear of the load.  Going round
corners with a 12m/40' load is sometimes a challenge, but otherwise it is
all pretty easy.

Regards,

rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:45 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Towability of extended harry


> Would it be possible to truncate the lw side of the ww hulls with a
> flat side to exactly 2.5m for towing. This would still provide almost
> the same sleeping width. Are there other issues such as length and
> overhang that limit towing size.
>
>
> Robert
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>