G'day,
The Spronk one was for wimps. It was a hole in the bridgedeck. You stayed
dry and had little or no chance of getting your tonsils backwashed, a
memorable experience on the back of XL2 at 18 knots. If you did get the
douche effect, it would more than likely wet the interior of the boat as
well.
Regards,
Rob> >Rob Denney wrote:
> >>Can't lay claim to inventing the crapper platform either
> Was that a Peter Spronk 'discovery'?
> (apart from whomever else in centuries past...)
>
> Cheers, Dave
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
G'day,
Steering with a tiller board is no different to steering with a rudder, in
my experience. Harry rudders are bigger than normal rudders, but not by
much as there are two of them. I have not tried a windward hull foil, so
can't answer from experience, but think the following might apply.
It is more drag when shunting, thus increasing the chance of rounding up.
The big rudders start steering as soon as the boat is moving, thus making it
easy to control. Small rudders will give much less control at low speeds.
Fixed foils do not start to work until after the shunt is complete, so are
just drag.
The beams would need to be stronger for the added loads, not a big deal.
You lose a bit of space, and add a bit of complexity.
The overall draft would not change very much, the foil would need to be
nearly as deep as the current rudders, and there are then three foils to
lift in shallow water. A two way assymetric foil can be as good as a one
way symmetric. Two boards would be overkill, but one would be right in the
middle of the most used space in the entire boat.
I am surprised that the Hughes proa shunted better after the foil was
added. If this was the only adjustment, and the rudder system was not
changed, then maybe I am wrong. I do not understand the theory of how it
would have helped, but I also don't know what the shunting problems were.
I wouldn't do it, but would love someone else to, so we can have some
feedback.
regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arttu" <arttuheinonen@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 2:42 PM
Subject: [harryproa] lateral resistance
> Hello
>
> How does a tiller feel when steering with a rudderboard? What do you
> think about having a daggerboard(s) in ww-hull? This way it could be
> possible to reduce foil area in lw-hull and use rudders for steering,
> not for lateral resistance. This also means less underwater
> clearance.
> ww-hull foils can be asymmetric.
> Rudders in lw-hull can be reasonable size so as rudder stocks.
> There is a Kurt Hughes designed proa in Finland that suffered from
> shunting difficulties and it was cured adding single daggerboard into
> ww-hull. Shunting became much easier, except playing with rudder
> cases.
> Daggerboard cases can be built next to beam bulkheads.
> in ww hull.
> This means a more complicated and vulnerable structure but lets
> forget it for now.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arttu
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hello
How does a tiller feel when steering with a rudderboard? What do you
think about having a daggerboard(s) in ww-hull? This way it could be
possible to reduce foil area in lw-hull and use rudders for steering,
not for lateral resistance. This also means less underwater
clearance.
ww-hull foils can be asymmetric.
Rudders in lw-hull can be reasonable size so as rudder stocks.
There is a Kurt Hughes designed proa in Finland that suffered from
shunting difficulties and it was cured adding single daggerboard into
ww-hull. Shunting became much easier, except playing with rudder
cases.
Daggerboard cases can be built next to beam bulkheads.
in ww hull.
This means a more complicated and vulnerable structure but lets
forget it for now.
Regards,
Arttu
The boys from Schionning have their new twin rigged 8 meter cat there.
It has some good ideas.
Stayless rigs were neat. I liked the space it gave in between the hulls. It has the illusion of being very very big without the rig in the middle.
This is something Harryproas have as well
But my opinion is that it isn't a patch on the Harryproa concept for allround space. The accommodation in a seawind 24 is similar to the Radical Bay. It is better than a seawind 24 in that it has standing headroom (if you are short) and an enclosed toilet/shower. But only three bunks
Weight is reported to be 800kg (not bad) I suspect it to be heavier though.
The advantages a Harryproa would have are:-
less weight
far more accommodation
one less rig to make
theory has the proa pointing higher
possibly faster to get from trailer to sailing
fewer fittings(less cost)
smaller motor required
all up sailaway cost is cheaper
This only my opinion and is not meant to be a bagging of the Schonning boat just a comparison
I do applaud the Schionning boys for developing building and marketing a boat that is a departure from the normal
It also shows the future is heading towards unstayed rigs and that different ideas are accepted more readily these days
I would suggest that the next step to a proa is not as radical as some would have you believe.
--- In harryproa@..., "Robert McArthur"
<mcarthur@d...> wrote:
> > Thanks for trying to understand what I was surmising.
> > Yes, the step is the flopper stopper for the flexible hyrofoil.
> > Theflex running fore and aft with the stiffest part at the front.
> > This is a half serious idea that tickled my fancy one evening,
along
> > with many others that I don't expect to see the light of day.
Part of
> > the idea comes from trying to work out the extra efficiency
derived
> > from the little fins that run along the back and underside in
front
> > of the tail on a tuna. The concept is probably sound but I have
> > doubts about whether it is worth the added complexity. There
is a
> > similar idea used on surf skis but getting through waves
quickly and
> > not burying the bows going down them is their main
purpose.
>
> FYI, and sorry to be offtopic for harryproa, there was a story in
> the US Multihulls magazine some years ago (between 3 and
12) about
> a swedish (or vicinity :-) gent who had a 20' or so mono that
was
> powered by a dolphin/whale-like tail. It was pedal powered
IIRC
> and was, supposedly, very efficient.
That would be Kjell Dahlberg. See his website at
http://www.dahlberg-sa.com/kd/index.html
Been talking to him for a week or so regarding rigid wingsails.
Regards,
JT
>
> Robert
> Thanks for trying to understand what I was surmising.
> Yes, the step is the flopper stopper for the flexible hyrofoil.
> Theflex running fore and aft with the stiffest part at the front.
> This is a half serious idea that tickled my fancy one evening, along
> with many others that I don't expect to see the light of day. Part of
> the idea comes from trying to work out the extra efficiency derived
> from the little fins that run along the back and underside in front
> of the tail on a tuna. The concept is probably sound but I have
> doubts about whether it is worth the added complexity. There is a
> similar idea used on surf skis but getting through waves quickly and
> not burying the bows going down them is their main purpose.
FYI, and sorry to be offtopic for harryproa, there was a story in
the US Multihulls magazine some years ago (between 3 and 12) about
a swedish (or vicinity :-) gent who had a 20' or so mono that was
powered by a dolphin/whale-like tail. It was pedal powered IIRC
and was, supposedly, very efficient.
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., Dave Howorth <Dave.Howorth@a...>
wrote:
> Robert wrote:
> > -I was thinking of a way for easy access from the water and I
thought
> > of a series of steps up the bow that had enough flex and shape to
act
> > like small one way whale tails. They would be based on a ring
step,
> > with flexible foil attached at the bow end to lie underneath the
> > ring. When the bow tries to go down there is resistance and when
it
> > tries to rise in the wave, it pulls the boat forward. For a
double
> > ended boat it gets a bit tricky for the lower foils.
>
> OK, I give up. I had enough trouble trying to understand the
> single-ended version. What's a ring step? Sounds like a
> flopper-stopper or whatever they're called? Some kind of flexible
> hydrofoil?
>
Dave,
Thanks for trying to understand what I was surmising.
Yes, the step is the flopper stopper for the flexible hyrofoil.
Theflex running fore and aft with the stiffest part at the front.
This is a half serious idea that tickled my fancy one evening, along
with many others that I don't expect to see the light of day. Part of
the idea comes from trying to work out the extra efficiency derived
from the little fins that run along the back and underside in front
of the tail on a tuna. The concept is probably sound but I have
doubts about whether it is worth the added complexity. There is a
similar idea used on surf skis but getting through waves quickly and
not burying the bows going down them is their main purpose.
I'd like to play with the idea when I have spare time- sometime
between after I finish writing up my PhD, building a house, building
a Harry and before I shuffle off.
(Sailing time will be incorporated into working, if things go to plan)
Robert
> >Rob Denney wrote:
> >>Can't lay claim to inventing the crapper platform either
> Was that a Peter Spronk 'discovery'?
> (apart from whomever else in centuries past...)
>
> Cheers, Dave
Robert wrote:
> -I was thinking of a way for easy access from the water and I thought
> of a series of steps up the bow that had enough flex and shape to act
> like small one way whale tails. They would be based on a ring step,
> with flexible foil attached at the bow end to lie underneath the
> ring. When the bow tries to go down there is resistance and when it
> tries to rise in the wave, it pulls the boat forward. For a double
> ended boat it gets a bit tricky for the lower foils.
OK, I give up. I had enough trouble trying to understand the
single-ended version. What's a ring step? Sounds like a
flopper-stopper or whatever they're called? Some kind of flexible
hydrofoil?
>Rob Denney wrote:
>>Can't lay claim to inventing the crapper platform either
Was that a Peter Spronk 'discovery'?
(apart from whomever else in centuries past...)
Cheers, Dave
-I was thinking of a way for easy access from the water and I thought
of a series of steps up the bow that had enough flex and shape to act
like small one way whale tails. They would be based on a ring step,
with flexible foil attached at the bow end to lie underneath the
ring. When the bow tries to go down there is resistance and when it
tries to rise in the wave, it pulls the boat forward. For a double
ended boat it gets a bit tricky for the lower foils. They would
probably have to have a reversing mechanism or a tension overload
which is one too many things to think about during a shunt. It would
also be a bit of a pain to jump up and down on the bows to get
somewhere in a calm.
My own methods are to swim and kedge- I'd swim out to the mooring
with a line to the boat at the shore and haul the boat to the
mooring; or I'd put on my fins and hang on to a crossbeam and kick.
Robert
-- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
> I never said it was easy! And they didn't throw it away until
they were
> past the Kimberleys, from where they could expect reasonable breeze
for the
> rest of the race. Not sure how much they used it, nor whether it
was worth
> the cost, weight or effort. I copied it from one Mike Ellison used
on Sabu
> (modified Telstar 26) in the '84 Round Britain Race. He was tied
up ahead
> of us, and when they tested their version, an impressive volume of
water was
> moved. I also have a paper somewhere describing a Norwegian
fishing boat,
> doing 5 knots into a large swell using a whale tail drive at the
bow,
> powered by the boat's pitching.
>
> Can't lay claim to inventing the crapper platform either, although
I suspect
> my record of using it at 18 knots (no paper required!) will not be
broken
> for a while.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul and Barbara Nudd" <nudd@o...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Kiwi clown
>
>
> > Rob Denney wrote:
> > > I used to
> > > scull my 1.5 tonne 9m cat, but only in zero breeze. Also built
a whale
> tail
> > > once, for a 12m 3 tonne tri. Worked by pumping up and down.
Reckoned
> they
> > > got 2 knots out of it.
> > Yes & I've seen video of Ian tossing it overboard.
> > Flapper & I got half a knot out of XL2 standing on the Denney
patented
> > crapper platforms paddling with the dinghy paddles in zero breeze
with
> > half a mile to finish line.
> > Paul Nudd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
G'day,
Junk rigs may be the way to go for reduced loads, except they are hopeless
upwind, and probably even more hopeless as a schooner. The multiple sheets
and heavy battens are not conducive to high speeds. Two sails can be used
to balance the boat, but at the expense of efficiency, as one will have to
be less than optimum to allow the other to push the boat around. All junk
rigs are unstayed, so no problem there. Rotation should also be no problem.
Shunting with sails alone would work, but it would not be very quick. You
still need the rudders for confined space maneuvering and leeway prevention.
Cost comparison? You could build the junk sails yourself, so saving a fair
bit of cash, but still have to buy the cloth, although it would not need to
be of very high quality. You might save a couple of grand if you did it all
yourself, but I think the lack of performance would make you wish you had
opted for an Easy rig. I could be wrong. Feel free to have a go, and let
us know the results, maybe using a smaller boat as a test bed.
Regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "darrellpriest" <darrell.priest@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: [harryproa] Twin Junk rig
> Re Harry and cruising not racing. I like the sound of having two masts
> and Junk rigs.Maybe it's because it's been a heavy day and I'm knocked
> up - just want to lay back and relax. Might be a good way to go! Junk
> rigs look like they share this outlook. Will these two sail areas aid
> steering and balancing reducing load/reliance on rudders? Masts
> unstayed OK? With Junk rig will sail rotate sufficiently around mast
> to do the job when shunting or would a boom attachment to mast be
> needed like easy rig and/or rotating mast? Could sail area alone be
> used to turn and set up boat when shunting? How about cost comparison-
> extra rig versus simpler sail cut/lines/longevity or is this just a
> story? Enough for now it's time for a feed. Give us a yell.
> Thanking you
> Darrell
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
G'day,
I never said it was easy! And they didn't throw it away until they were
past the Kimberleys, from where they could expect reasonable breeze for the
rest of the race. Not sure how much they used it, nor whether it was worth
the cost, weight or effort. I copied it from one Mike Ellison used on Sabu
(modified Telstar 26) in the '84 Round Britain Race. He was tied up ahead
of us, and when they tested their version, an impressive volume of water was
moved. I also have a paper somewhere describing a Norwegian fishing boat,
doing 5 knots into a large swell using a whale tail drive at the bow,
powered by the boat's pitching.
Can't lay claim to inventing the crapper platform either, although I suspect
my record of using it at 18 knots (no paper required!) will not be broken
for a while.
Regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul and Barbara Nudd" <nudd@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: Kiwi clown
> Rob Denney wrote:
> > I used to
> > scull my 1.5 tonne 9m cat, but only in zero breeze. Also built a whale
tail
> > once, for a 12m 3 tonne tri. Worked by pumping up and down. Reckoned
they
> > got 2 knots out of it.
> Yes & I've seen video of Ian tossing it overboard.
> Flapper & I got half a knot out of XL2 standing on the Denney patented
> crapper platforms paddling with the dinghy paddles in zero breeze with
> half a mile to finish line.
> Paul Nudd
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
G'day,
No problem with the concept, either design or engineering. On Harry it
would be a little quicker to build, would be less windage, less weight, and
much less room. Quicker to build, but not very much, depending on how
complex you wanted the seats to be (curved or straight, lifting for storage)
and how easy you want access to the hulls. I suspect it would also be a
fair bit wetter to sail and with a smaller cockpit. Simpler for trailing as
it would not be such a bulky craft. Could set up the interior however you
liked. Acees would be harder, as there would be no room for decent steps.
I doubt it would pay for the cost of the second mast. I am not yet
convinced that 2 masts is a good set up for the larger boats, as sheet loads
are significant. There are no beam problems, except that they would have to
traverse the windward hull, further reducing the space available.
All told, not worth the effort, unless you are only day sailing, in which
case, you would probably be better off with a camping Elementarry.
Regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "darrellpriest" <darrell.priest@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: [harryproa] cockpit in hull
> We're talking Harry and cruising not racing. If your not after heaps
> of bunks, {like just a double and perhaps a single in lee hull with
> twin rig } is it feasible to have cockpit in hull? Would it be
> significantly cheaper and quicker to build? Would it make up for extra
> cost of second mast? Or are beam integrity- positioning problematic?
> How about set up for trailoring- simpler? How would you set it up? -
> bunk and elecs one end, galley and head the other.What about access to
> hulls-how would you attack it?
> Hit us with some +'s/-'s but first is the concept outside the design/
> engineering parameters for harry?
> Thanking you
> Darrell
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Rob Denney wrote:
> I used to
> scull my 1.5 tonne 9m cat, but only in zero breeze. Also built a whale tail
> once, for a 12m 3 tonne tri. Worked by pumping up and down. Reckoned they
> got 2 knots out of it.
Yes & I've seen video of Ian tossing it overboard.
Flapper & I got half a knot out of XL2 standing on the Denney patented
crapper platforms paddling with the dinghy paddles in zero breeze with
half a mile to finish line.
Paul Nudd
Re Harry and cruising not racing. I like the sound of having two masts
and Junk rigs.Maybe it's because it's been a heavy day and I'm knocked
up - just want to lay back and relax. Might be a good way to go! Junk
rigs look like they share this outlook. Will these two sail areas aid
steering and balancing reducing load/reliance on rudders? Masts
unstayed OK? With Junk rig will sail rotate sufficiently around mast
to do the job when shunting or would a boom attachment to mast be
needed like easy rig and/or rotating mast? Could sail area alone be
used to turn and set up boat when shunting? How about cost comparison-
extra rig versus simpler sail cut/lines/longevity or is this just a
story? Enough for now it's time for a feed. Give us a yell.
Thanking you
Darrell
We're talking Harry and cruising not racing. If your not after heaps
of bunks, {like just a double and perhaps a single in lee hull with
twin rig } is it feasible to have cockpit in hull? Would it be
significantly cheaper and quicker to build? Would it make up for extra
cost of second mast? Or are beam integrity- positioning problematic?
How about set up for trailoring- simpler? How would you set it up? -
bunk and elecs one end, galley and head the other.What about access to
hulls-how would you attack it?
Hit us with some +'s/-'s but first is the concept outside the design/
engineering parameters for harry?
Thanking you
Darrell
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
>
>
>snip>
> > Will it have trapezes?
>
> On mine, probably not, the low rig and the wide beam would make it
pretty
> uncomfortable. Of course, if someone goes past us because we have
> insufficient righting moment, this attitude will change.
You could put wings to ww with enough counterbalance to fly the lw
hull, minimising wetted area in light breezes. Still don't think it
would satisfy the flying proa advocates.
Robert
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
>snip
> I happen to be born a Kiwi clown myself,
>
Me too.
>
> I can't see a great deal of difficulty in making those pedal props
> with the twisted chain, but I don't think I'd get too far against any
> breeze.
Bit prone to damage, as well, I think. A yuloh really appeals, I used to
scull my 1.5 tonne 9m cat, but only in zero breeze. Also built a whale tail
once, for a 12m 3 tonne tri. Worked by pumping up and down. Reckoned they
got 2 knots out of it.
>
> I can see that the schooner rig should be heavier and harder sheeting
> with two sheets to worry about; more expensive as there are two masts
> to build; possibly more difficulty with sail handling as further from
> the center; and possibly more interference from the ww hull. Offset
> against clear deck, less clearance needed and therefore lower base of
> sail area; no forestay tension; lower COE from spreading the rig
> between two smaller sails; easier sail handling from having lighter,
> smaller sails; less bury needed for the masts and therefore easier to
> pack lw hull within load width limits; and lower rig for sailing
> under bridges.
> Torque on the lw hull is still there but possibly reduced- can't
> presume the loading on each mast is going to be the same, especially
> in a gust. The difficulty of setting stays and the dirty air
> associated was one of my big concerns for the schooner rig but,
> unstayed, my inclination is becoming stronger towards the schooner.
> Keeping my fingers crossed on the Elementarry trials.
Me too! Agree with all your comments, it will be interesting to see if we
can sort out the drawbacks. Be great if there are eventually enough of them
to a) get everything tuned and optimised, and b) try different rigs,
rudders, etc.
> Will it have trapezes?
On mine, probably not, the low rig and the wide beam would make it pretty
uncomfortable. Of course, if someone goes past us because we have
insufficient righting moment, this attitude will change.
regards,
Rob
> Robert
> --- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> > G'day,
> > Sculled well is an exageration. They scull. Never tried them in
> tandem as
> > I am usually solo. Far better performance was got sitting on the
> beam and
> > paddling, better again, sculling , better again would be a
> dedicated Yuloh
> > type set up.
> >
> > Nothing at all on schooner rigs, until we see how Elementarry
> works. Still
> > think they will be harder work, (sheeting), heavier, more expensive
> and not
> > as good to windward, but would love to be proven wrong.
> >
> > None of the masts needs the stay anymore, except maybe to control
> the bend.
> > So, I would suggest unstayed.
> >
> > Regards, (and thanks for the help with that kiwi clown)
> >
> > Rob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:22 AM
> > Subject: [harryproa] sculling
> >
> >
> > > Rob,
> > > You mentioned on the proa file that the rudders when in reverse
> > > sculled well. I could imagine with both sets of rudders facing
> > > backwards and the the rear rudder going to windward and the
> forward
> > > ruder going to leeward then vise versa that the boat would snake
> > > along quite well. I was wondering how efficient it was as I
> imagine
> > > more flexibility would be needed for max efficiency.
> > > Also, for the Harry, have you done much on offering a schooner rig
> > > and would the masts be semistayed or completely freestanding.
> > > Robert
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
I happen to be born a Kiwi clown myself,
I can't see a great deal of difficulty in making those pedal props
with the twisted chain, but I don't think I'd get too far against any
breeze.
I can see that the schooner rig should be heavier and harder sheeting
with two sheets to worry about; more expensive as there are two masts
to build; possibly more difficulty with sail handling as further from
the center; and possibly more interference from the ww hull. Offset
against clear deck, less clearance needed and therefore lower base of
sail area; no forestay tension; lower COE from spreading the rig
between two smaller sails; easier sail handling from having lighter,
smaller sails; less bury needed for the masts and therefore easier to
pack lw hull within load width limits; and lower rig for sailing
under bridges.
Torque on the lw hull is still there but possibly reduced- can't
presume the loading on each mast is going to be the same, especially
in a gust. The difficulty of setting stays and the dirty air
associated was one of my big concerns for the schooner rig but,
unstayed, my inclination is becoming stronger towards the schooner.
Keeping my fingers crossed on the Elementarry trials.
Will it have trapezes?
Robert
--- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
> Sculled well is an exageration. They scull. Never tried them in
tandem as
> I am usually solo. Far better performance was got sitting on the
beam and
> paddling, better again, sculling , better again would be a
dedicated Yuloh
> type set up.
>
> Nothing at all on schooner rigs, until we see how Elementarry
works. Still
> think they will be harder work, (sheeting), heavier, more expensive
and not
> as good to windward, but would love to be proven wrong.
>
> None of the masts needs the stay anymore, except maybe to control
the bend.
> So, I would suggest unstayed.
>
> Regards, (and thanks for the help with that kiwi clown)
>
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:22 AM
> Subject: [harryproa] sculling
>
>
> > Rob,
> > You mentioned on the proa file that the rudders when in reverse
> > sculled well. I could imagine with both sets of rudders facing
> > backwards and the the rear rudder going to windward and the
forward
> > ruder going to leeward then vise versa that the boat would snake
> > along quite well. I was wondering how efficient it was as I
imagine
> > more flexibility would be needed for max efficiency.
> > Also, for the Harry, have you done much on offering a schooner rig
> > and would the masts be semistayed or completely freestanding.
> > Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
I've got my plans, Have you?
--- In harryproa@..., "bradwoodbr" <bradlina@b...>
wrote:
> Your comments here and in previous posts appear to be very critical.
> Which is a good thing when those interested in/designing/building
> proas start dreaming a little too much.
> It certainly gets their feet back on the ground.
> It also reminds me that the Harry proa concept is the closest of
all
> modern proas to being a proven product.
> Even if the spin is a little exaggerated (isn't all spin
> exaggerated?) I will want one when they are sorted.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "proaconstrictor"
> <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > Maybe we could get that nervous back and forth slating action of
> the
> > becalmed sails to power the sculls/boards?
Your comments here and in previous posts appear to be very critical.
Which is a good thing when those interested in/designing/building
proas start dreaming a little too much.
It certainly gets their feet back on the ground.
It also reminds me that the Harry proa concept is the closest of all
modern proas to being a proven product.
Even if the spin is a little exaggerated (isn't all spin
exaggerated?) I will want one when they are sorted.
Brad
--- In harryproa@..., "proaconstrictor"
<proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> Maybe we could get that nervous back and forth slating action of
the
> becalmed sails to power the sculls/boards?
G'day,
Sculled well is an exageration. They scull. Never tried them in tandem as
I am usually solo. Far better performance was got sitting on the beam and
paddling, better again, sculling , better again would be a dedicated Yuloh
type set up.
Nothing at all on schooner rigs, until we see how Elementarry works. Still
think they will be harder work, (sheeting), heavier, more expensive and not
as good to windward, but would love to be proven wrong.
None of the masts needs the stay anymore, except maybe to control the bend.
So, I would suggest unstayed.
Regards, (and thanks for the help with that kiwi clown)
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:22 AM
Subject: [harryproa] sculling
> Rob,
> You mentioned on the proa file that the rudders when in reverse
> sculled well. I could imagine with both sets of rudders facing
> backwards and the the rear rudder going to windward and the forward
> ruder going to leeward then vise versa that the boat would snake
> along quite well. I was wondering how efficient it was as I imagine
> more flexibility would be needed for max efficiency.
> Also, for the Harry, have you done much on offering a schooner rig
> and would the masts be semistayed or completely freestanding.
> Robert
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Rob,
You mentioned on the proa file that the rudders when in reverse
sculled well. I could imagine with both sets of rudders facing
backwards and the the rear rudder going to windward and the forward
ruder going to leeward then vise versa that the boat would snake
along quite well. I was wondering how efficient it was as I imagine
more flexibility would be needed for max efficiency.
Also, for the Harry, have you done much on offering a schooner rig
and would the masts be semistayed or completely freestanding.
Robert
G'day,
Sounds good. How long we stay will depend on how well my mother manages
looking after our 2 year old.
Regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 7:26 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Harryproa Update
> -I have to be in Ballina on the 24th for a conference. We may just
> cross if I can get to Coffs before it rather than after it.
> Robert
>
>
> -- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> > G'day,
> >
> > We can certainly supply all the materials, and any parts which may
> be
> > difficult (mast, beam structural members). Very roughly, the cost
> would be,
> > in kiri and glass:
> >
> > The hulls are 24 sq m of 6mm kiri, plus maybe 20% for wastage, and
> a layer
> > of 400 gsm double bias each
> > side and 20 litres of epoxy.
> >
> > There is another 4 sq m of kiriand 8 sq m of 400 db in the beams,
> plus a
> > couple of kgs of tow ($aus30 per kg).
> >
> > The rudders are a couple of sq m of kiri, twice that of db and
> another 2
> > kgs of tow.
> >
> > The rigs will cost a couple of grand if built by us, or you can
> build your
> > own using about 7 sq m
> > of uni carbon at $Aus50 per sq m) and another 6 kgs of tow..
> >
> > So,
> > 38 sq m of kiri at $30 per sq m $1,140
> > 76 sq m of 400 double bias @ $5 per sq m $380
> > 30 litres epoxy @ $11 $330
> > 8 kgs of tow @$35 $280
> > 7 sq m uni carbon @$50 per sq m $350
> >
> > Total $2,480
> >
> > The sails about $1,500, although we may get a deal if we can bulk
> order.
> > Soft tramp
> > a hundred bucks, hard tramp (15mm foam db each side) $200.
> >
> > Pop top we are still getting quotes for, but between
> > $1,000 and $1,500. Again there may be some bulk discounts
> available.
> >
> > Few bits of rope and some cleats and bits of tube for tillers and
> > trampoline, some powders for the epoxy and some paint and that is
> about it.
> > Allow another $1,000
> >
> > Plans $aus1,000.
> >
> > Couple of sheets of mdf for the frames, screws, sandpaper, gloves,
> etc
> > another couple of hundred dollars.
> >
> > Total: $6,280
> >
> > All plus 10% GST and freight.
> >
> > Suspect it will be cheaper (and quicker, and lighter) to build it
> from foam,
> > but we won't know this until we have built the first one. I am in
> Coffs
> > from 7th June for one, maybe two weeks. Be good to dsee you if you
> are
> > there then. On the other hand, if you can leave it till late June,
> you will
> > see more of the finished artiocle.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Rob
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> > To: <harryproa@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 7:58 AM
> > Subject: [harryproa] Re: Harryproa Update
> >
> >
> > > Thanks Michelle,
> > > Love the latest version of the Harry and hope to see the
> Visionarry
> > > in the flesh in June when I am up that way. Are the little one's
> > > available as kits ie all the materials needed + plans and how much
> > > would they be. I am just curious, I don't have the time right now
> and
> > > as soon as I do , it'll be full bore on a Harry, probably this
> latest
> > > version.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In harryproa@..., "michele balharry"
> > > <michele@o...> wrote:
> > > > Hello Everyone,
> > > >
> > > > Well, this was a long time coming - I hope you all find
> something of
> > > > interest in the latest updates at www.harryproa.com ;
> > > > a.. Elementarry and Elementarry camper in Australia and Brazil
> > > > http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm
> > > > b.. Harry http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm
> > > > c.. Arttu Heinonen building Visionarry in Finland Report 3
> > > > http://www.harryproa.com/Arttu/Arttu_3.htm
> > > > d.. Building Visionarry in Australia Report 8
> > > > http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm
> > > > e.. Rob Denneys new e-mail address : proa@i...
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Michele
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------
> > > > Michele Balharry
> > > > Harryproa Pty. Ltd.
> > > > ph: +61 02 6655 2016
> > > > fax: +61 02 6655 9994
> > > > e-mail: michele@o...
> > > > web site: www.harryproa.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
-I have to be in Ballina on the 24th for a conference. We may just
cross if I can get to Coffs before it rather than after it.
Robert
-- In harryproa@..., "Rob Denney" <proa@i...> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> We can certainly supply all the materials, and any parts which may
be
> difficult (mast, beam structural members). Very roughly, the cost
would be,
> in kiri and glass:
>
> The hulls are 24 sq m of 6mm kiri, plus maybe 20% for wastage, and
a layer
> of 400 gsm double bias each
> side and 20 litres of epoxy.
>
> There is another 4 sq m of kiriand 8 sq m of 400 db in the beams,
plus a
> couple of kgs of tow ($aus30 per kg).
>
> The rudders are a couple of sq m of kiri, twice that of db and
another 2
> kgs of tow.
>
> The rigs will cost a couple of grand if built by us, or you can
build your
> own using about 7 sq m
> of uni carbon at $Aus50 per sq m) and another 6 kgs of tow..
>
> So,
> 38 sq m of kiri at $30 per sq m $1,140
> 76 sq m of 400 double bias @ $5 per sq m $380
> 30 litres epoxy @ $11 $330
> 8 kgs of tow @$35 $280
> 7 sq m uni carbon @$50 per sq m $350
>
> Total $2,480
>
> The sails about $1,500, although we may get a deal if we can bulk
order.
> Soft tramp
> a hundred bucks, hard tramp (15mm foam db each side) $200.
>
> Pop top we are still getting quotes for, but between
> $1,000 and $1,500. Again there may be some bulk discounts
available.
>
> Few bits of rope and some cleats and bits of tube for tillers and
> trampoline, some powders for the epoxy and some paint and that is
about it.
> Allow another $1,000
>
> Plans $aus1,000.
>
> Couple of sheets of mdf for the frames, screws, sandpaper, gloves,
etc
> another couple of hundred dollars.
>
> Total: $6,280
>
> All plus 10% GST and freight.
>
> Suspect it will be cheaper (and quicker, and lighter) to build it
from foam,
> but we won't know this until we have built the first one. I am in
Coffs
> from 7th June for one, maybe two weeks. Be good to dsee you if you
are
> there then. On the other hand, if you can leave it till late June,
you will
> see more of the finished artiocle.
>
> regards,
>
> Rob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert" <cateran1949@y...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 7:58 AM
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: Harryproa Update
>
>
> > Thanks Michelle,
> > Love the latest version of the Harry and hope to see the
Visionarry
> > in the flesh in June when I am up that way. Are the little one's
> > available as kits ie all the materials needed + plans and how much
> > would they be. I am just curious, I don't have the time right now
and
> > as soon as I do , it'll be full bore on a Harry, probably this
latest
> > version.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In harryproa@..., "michele balharry"
> > <michele@o...> wrote:
> > > Hello Everyone,
> > >
> > > Well, this was a long time coming - I hope you all find
something of
> > > interest in the latest updates at www.harryproa.com ;
> > > a.. Elementarry and Elementarry camper in Australia and Brazil
> > > http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm
> > > b.. Harry http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm
> > > c.. Arttu Heinonen building Visionarry in Finland Report 3
> > > http://www.harryproa.com/Arttu/Arttu_3.htm
> > > d.. Building Visionarry in Australia Report 8
> > > http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm
> > > e.. Rob Denneys new e-mail address : proa@i...
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Michele
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------
> > > Michele Balharry
> > > Harryproa Pty. Ltd.
> > > ph: +61 02 6655 2016
> > > fax: +61 02 6655 9994
> > > e-mail: michele@o...
> > > web site: www.harryproa.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
G'day,
We can certainly supply all the materials, and any parts which may be
difficult (mast, beam structural members). Very roughly, the cost would be,
in kiri and glass:
The hulls are 24 sq m of 6mm kiri, plus maybe 20% for wastage, and a layer
of 400 gsm double bias each
side and 20 litres of epoxy.
There is another 4 sq m of kiriand 8 sq m of 400 db in the beams, plus a
couple of kgs of tow ($aus30 per kg).
The rudders are a couple of sq m of kiri, twice that of db and another 2
kgs of tow.
The rigs will cost a couple of grand if built by us, or you can build your
own using about 7 sq m
of uni carbon at $Aus50 per sq m) and another 6 kgs of tow..
So,
38 sq m of kiri at $30 per sq m $1,140
76 sq m of 400 double bias @ $5 per sq m $380
30 litres epoxy @ $11 $330
8 kgs of tow @$35 $280
7 sq m uni carbon @$50 per sq m $350
Total $2,480
The sails about $1,500, although we may get a deal if we can bulk order.
Soft tramp
a hundred bucks, hard tramp (15mm foam db each side) $200.
Pop top we are still getting quotes for, but between
$1,000 and $1,500. Again there may be some bulk discounts available.
Few bits of rope and some cleats and bits of tube for tillers and
trampoline, some powders for the epoxy and some paint and that is about it.
Allow another $1,000
Plans $aus1,000.
Couple of sheets of mdf for the frames, screws, sandpaper, gloves, etc
another couple of hundred dollars.
Total: $6,280
All plus 10% GST and freight.
Suspect it will be cheaper (and quicker, and lighter) to build it from foam,
but we won't know this until we have built the first one. I am in Coffs
from 7th June for one, maybe two weeks. Be good to dsee you if you are
there then. On the other hand, if you can leave it till late June, you will
see more of the finished artiocle.
regards,
Rob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert" <cateran1949@...>
To: <harryproa@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 7:58 AM
Subject: [harryproa] Re: Harryproa Update
> Thanks Michelle,
> Love the latest version of the Harry and hope to see the Visionarry
> in the flesh in June when I am up that way. Are the little one's
> available as kits ie all the materials needed + plans and how much
> would they be. I am just curious, I don't have the time right now and
> as soon as I do , it'll be full bore on a Harry, probably this latest
> version.
>
>
>
>
> --- In harryproa@..., "michele balharry"
> <michele@o...> wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > Well, this was a long time coming - I hope you all find something of
> > interest in the latest updates at www.harryproa.com ;
> > a.. Elementarry and Elementarry camper in Australia and Brazil
> > http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm
> > b.. Harry http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm
> > c.. Arttu Heinonen building Visionarry in Finland Report 3
> > http://www.harryproa.com/Arttu/Arttu_3.htm
> > d.. Building Visionarry in Australia Report 8
> > http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm
> > e.. Rob Denneys new e-mail address : proa@i...
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Michele
> >
> >
> > --------------------------
> > Michele Balharry
> > Harryproa Pty. Ltd.
> > ph: +61 02 6655 2016
> > fax: +61 02 6655 9994
> > e-mail: michele@o...
> > web site: www.harryproa.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Thanks Michelle,
Love the latest version of the Harry and hope to see the Visionarry
in the flesh in June when I am up that way. Are the little one's
available as kits ie all the materials needed + plans and how much
would they be. I am just curious, I don't have the time right now and
as soon as I do , it'll be full bore on a Harry, probably this latest
version.
--- In harryproa@..., "michele balharry"
<michele@o...> wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Well, this was a long time coming - I hope you all find something of
> interest in the latest updates at www.harryproa.com ;
> a.. Elementarry and Elementarry camper in Australia and Brazil
> http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry.htm
> b.. Harry http://www.harryproa.com/harry.htm
> c.. Arttu Heinonen building Visionarry in Finland Report 3
> http://www.harryproa.com/Arttu/Arttu_3.htm
> d.. Building Visionarry in Australia Report 8
> http://www.harryproa.com/building_Vis/building_Vis_8.htm
> e.. Rob Denneys new e-mail address : proa@i...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michele
>
>
> --------------------------
> Michele Balharry
> Harryproa Pty. Ltd.
> ph: +61 02 6655 2016
> fax: +61 02 6655 9994
> e-mail: michele@o...
> web site: www.harryproa.com
Hi Rob
Good on ya. I'm still waiting for the camping Elementarry (if that is
still its name) and will look forward to any more progress reports. Or
for a referral to Brazil (I'd love an excuse to go there) for that
matter.
Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe
ITS Desktop Support
Victoria University of Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
(04) 463 5018 or 027 428 4648
Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would
it?" -- Albert Einstein
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Denney [mailto:proa@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:33
> To: harryproa@...
> Subject: Re: [harryproa] Re: changed address
>
> G'day,
>
> proa@...
>
> I think I have sold my boat, which is a blessing as it is
> costing $100 per week to keep it on the marina, and I never
> seem to get time to go sailing.
> As soon as the money arrives, we will be starting a 7.5m camping proa.
> Schooner rigged, same sail area and righting moment as a Tornado, but
> lighter and longer. Aim is 10 minutes from trailer to
> sailing. It will
> have space for a double bunk and at anchor will have near
> full headroom.
> Cost (at least until the first one is built) is $13,000, plus
> gst. I hope
> to have the first one here this winter.
>
> A similar boat, but roomier, heavier and cheaper is being
> production built in Brazil. Should also be available this
> winter. Not sure whether we will
> be importing any, it will depend on the demand. I will keep
> you informed,
> and hopefully take you for a sail.
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob----- Original Message -----
> From: "bradwoodbr" <bradlina@...>
> To: <harryproa@...>
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 4:56 PM
> Subject: [harryproa] Re: changed address
>
>
> > Hi Rob,
> > Can you send the email address again please as only this bit
> > (proa@i...)came through.
> > Are you sailing any of your Proas in Perth at the moment?
> > Cheers
> > Brad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > harryproa-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> > http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> harryproa-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://au.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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