There are 12 threads of conversation in this summary
1. Current OT staff disconnected from openVictims
2. Updates from Deloitte
3. Rejection of GEERS claim
4. AFR Article Mon 25 Aug 2003
5. Checking that OT paid Deloitte
6. Jokes
7. OT Directors won't change the Deed
8. Award Coverage
9. Redundancies at OT, Sydney
10. Mudgee Abattoir - redundancies/GEERS
11. Key Mushrooms
12. Age article 23 Sept 2003 Workers losing faith


Thread: 1
Subject: Current OT staff disconnected from openVictims

A decision was made to disconnect current OT staff from the private
openVictims group. This is because of concerns about information
falling into the wrong hands.

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________________________________________________________________________

Thread: 2
Subject: Updates from Deloitte
Also refer: 7. OT Directors won't change the Deed

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:27:05 +1000
From: Tom Northey <tn@d...>
Subject: Deloitte update 20 Aug 03

I have had an email today from Andrew Needham of Deloittes as follows:

**Andrew Needham wrote:
"I would prefer if people could wait for the circular for other
information.
If they wish they could send in proof of eligibility to APESMA - this
would
involve the same documentation that they would require to become a
member or
a copy of current membership.

I would prefer if people would not email me as I am only checking my
email
sporadically as I am working for a client until the end of the year. I
am
not able to confirm entitlements individually by email, this will once
again
be done by a mailout when we have recalculated based on Award.

I am aware of confirming one person's entitlements, however they had
also
raised a number of other issues which needed to be addressed."
**end

I also suggest that if you have moved, you ensure Deloitte has your
current
postal address and phone number.

rgds,
Tom

==========

Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:22:20 +1000
From: "Paul S Davis" <p.s.davis@i...>
Subject: Re: DTT update 29 Aug 03

I recieved my letter from DTT. DTT seems to have a hard time accepting
any
blame and that they ignored the advice from DEWR. The classic line
would
have to be:

"We appreciate that the delay in resolving the GEERS matter may have
caused
financial hardship for Employees."

==========

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:12:17 +1000
From: Elizabeth Fullerton <laslig@o...>
Subject: Re: Re: DTT update 29 Aug 03

I particularly liked the bit about "we accept the award (which
incidentally has
retrenchment money in it), and we accept that giving retrenchment money
was
standard practice, but we're still not going to give it to you".


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Thread: 3
Subject: Rejection of GEERS claim

A reminder that a summary of Paul's meeting with DEWR officials has
already been posted to the OT Mushrooms group, message 375.

Other relevant messages already on OT Mushrooms: 364, 370

From openVictims ...
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:07:52 -0000
Subject: Another one for the Conspiracy Theorists

After the World Trade Center attack, it was one year, one month, and
one day to the Bali bombing.

After the appointment of the administrators, it was one year, one
month, and one day to the rejection of our GEERS claim.

Economic terrorists, anyone?


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Thread: 4
Subject: AFR Article Mon 25 Aug 2003

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 03:58:33 -0000
From: "start_monday" <start_monday@y...>
Subject: Comindico in today's AFR

The salient points :

- AGL have written off their investment in Comindico ($52M)
- Brisbane based Veridas have offered to buy Comindico's customer base
- No offer was made for the IP network
- The offer received a 'hostile reception' from Stuckey
- Wayne Passlow did not return calls

==========

Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:09:13 +1000
From: Tom Northey <tn@d...>
Subject: Re: Comindico in today's AFR

According to the AGL announcement, they've written off part ($52.5M) of
their investment so their 35.9% is now valued by AGL at $19.5M. This
means
Comindico is valued by AGL at $54M as at 30 June 03.

The News Corp press about this is full of those wonderful "facts" that
inspire such confidence in the media.
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,7027237%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.h\
tml

e.g. "Comindico was "part of the past, not part of our future", Mr
Stuckey
said, a sentiment that also included the ACT-based broadband service
provider, TransACT. "

Stuckey is the CEO of Comindico - presumably they're actually quoting
the
AGL chief David Martin.

Also in the same article "Its latest chief executive, John Stuckey,
recently
claimed the company had 40,000 customers for its broadband ADSL
service, but
industry sources said the real number was closer to 5000."

Hard to believe there are only 5000 (presumably retail) customers -
Comindico is one of the biggest wholesale ISP providers. Most of the
ADSL
unlimited bandwidth ISPs use it. Industry sources - they wouldn't be
Veridas would they?

As far as I can see, Veridas don't offer ADSL so the offer for
customers
only seems flawed.


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Thread: 5
Subject: Checking that OT paid Deloitte

A message was received from Morgan Kelly, Deloitte, on 29 Aug 2003, that
the payment [of $790k] had been made. This message is in the Public
File Archive in sound wave and text versions.
http://au.geocities.com/nick4mony/otm/VoiceMessage.wav and
http://au.geocities.com/nick4mony/otm/VoiceMessage.txt

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________________________________________________________________________

Thread: 6
Subject: Jokes

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:05:27 -0000
From: nick4mony
Subject: Joke

--- In openvictims@y..., "Paul S Davis" <p.s.davis@i...>
wrote:
> It is correct to interpret this statement as saying that while
the
> former Open Tel employees GEERS claim has been found to be
ineligible due
> to the inconsistency between the DoCA and the GEERS requirements,
they
> would be reassessed and assistance could be provided , subject to
the OAs,
> under the following circumstances:
>
> 2. the DoCA fails before its terms have been fully met. Thus may
occur for
> a number of reasons including a court ruling resulting from any legal
> action, OR a decision by creditors to liquidate the company.


If the company croaks, we'll all be rich!!!

*****

Little boy goes up to his grandfather and asks him ...
Can you croak - like a frog?
Grandfather obliges accordingly, but then he asks the boy why he
wanted him to croak. The boy pipes up:
Mum keeps saying that when you croak, we'll all be rich

==========

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:45:26 +1000
From: "Lex Young" <youngad@o...>
Subject: Re: Joke

Ahem!
Us Grandfathers are a forgiving lot. Particularly of silly unthoughtful
comments.

However, let me put you in your place.
When I am drivelling on, my 4 yr grandaughter will, on occasion, look
me in
the eye and say -

'Knock it off grandad"

==========

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:01:54 -0000
From: nick4mony
Subject: More humour from my computer

At 23:07 on 27 Aug 2003, my fortune program (linux) said

Two percent of zero is almost nothing.

Not quite what the Deed says, but interesting, none the less.

Nick Bishop, bigfoot.com @ nick4mony

==========

In regards to Mudgee Abattoir, Tom Northey made this comment:
(And I can't help noticing the similarity of Abbott vs Abattoir -
perhaps
they should reopen that place so they can process one more carcass).

==========

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:44:12 -0000
From: nick4mony
Subject: A comment comes back to bite me

--- In openvictims@y..., nick4mony <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> Thank-you. However, I suspect that a group of meat-workers in
> Gisborne, NZ, may have been able to achieve more, had they been in
> this situation.

I wrote that on Wed 29 Jan 2003. It appears to have come to pass,
except it wasn't Gisborne 8-(

*****

Q: What on earth has Gisborne got to do with this?
A: When I first started with OT in Walker St, North Sydney, I wrote a
simple intranet home page which had on it, amongst other things, a
story about workers at a meat-works in Gisborne who were told to get
permission before going to the toilet (!) which got nationwide media
attention in the 1980's.

The Gisborne story caused some amusement in the office, especially
when it came to the toilet keys (to come back in) in Walker St.

==========

Nick's email footers:
-----
There's one thing you have to accept about your life: you can't get
out of it alive.
-----
"... Environment Victoria is awake, but not alert"
-- Nick Bishop, letter to the Age 2 May 2003.
-----
Change is inevitable, except from this [ticket] machine.
-----
rm -fr /bin/laden
-----
Some of us live in a terrorist city: Mel Bin
-----
PDP-11 Instruction set
DC Divide and Conquer
DMPK Destroy Memory Protect Key
DO Divide and Overflow
HCF Halt and Catch Fire
-----
The tools make it quite easy. But given enough effort, you can make
it quite hard for yourself.
-----
Latest program brought to you by Centrelink:
Australian Idle.
-----
"The opinions expressed by this child are not necessarily those of his
parents" -- note from a mother to her son's teacher.
-----
You could write this on your centrelink form
PREFERRED LANGUAGE, if not English [ MONEY ]
-oOo-

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Thread: 7
Subject: OT Directors won't change the Deed

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:12:17 +1000
From: Tom Northey <tn@d...>
Subject: DTT update 29 Aug 03

Hi All,

Have just spoken to Morgan Kelly (Peter Yates is not there and Andrew
Needham is on secondment to NAB as he has been for some time).

Deloitte have spoken to OT directors again (since the rejection of the
GEERS
claim by DEWR) and they still are not going to change the deed. So as
far
as Deloitte are concerned, all avenues of getting the GEERS claims paid
have
been exhausted.

As Ben said, Deloitte expect the money to be paid by OTT on-time to
Deloitte.

Deloitte sent out a circular to all employee creditors yesterday and we
should receive it today or Monday.

To get a redundancy component of the payment, you need to be eligible
for
the IT Professionals award and to have been working in an award role.
The
circular will contain details of the award and ask you to prove APESMA
eligibility.

Deloitte also are required to advertise the dividend, and wait for any
responses to these ads.

They expect responses to the circular in 2-3 weeks, and if all goes
well, we
*may* have money around a month from now. He would not state any date
for
payment though. They need as many people to respond as possible but do
not
require everyone to respond.

Eligibility for redundancy will NOT change the amount paid by OTT to
Deloitte; it will just alter how the total amount of $1.58M is divided
up
between employee creditors.

Deloitte had been planning on hanging on to the first payment
(dividend)
from OTT for employee creditors until the second was received in
December
(and then distributing both payments at once), but they have decided to
make
the first payment to employee creditors as soon as possible (how
magnanimous).

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Thread: 8
Subject: Award Coverage

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:19 +1000
From: "Paul S Davis" <psdavis@a...>
Subject: INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY (PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS) AWARD
2002

The Award gives definitions of who is covered by the award:

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY (PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS) AWARD 1999
http://www.airc.gov.au/awardsandorders/html/PR912647.htm

AW812692-" INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY (PROFESSIONAL EMPLOYEES)
AWARD
2001 " Roping-in award No. 2 of 2002 inserted by PR920268 ppc 02Jul02
http://www.osiris.gov.au/html/awards/1/AW812692/0/IA000110.htm

3. APPLICATION AND PARTIES BOUND

This award shall apply to, and be binding upon:

. the Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers,
Australia (APESMA), its officers and members employed by the employers
listed in Schedule A;

. the employers listed in Schedule A in respect of Professional
Engineers
(as defined in the parent award) employed by them and who are
performing
professional engineering duties (as defined in the parent award) in the
Information Technology Industry (as defined in the parent award),
eligible
to be members of APESMA, whether members or not.

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Thread: 9
Subject: Redundancies at OT, Sydney

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 03:18:52 -0000
From: nick4mony
Subject: Re: another round of redundancies at Sydney OT

--- In openvictims@y..., "start_monday"
<start_monday@y...> wrote:
> I heard that another 12 staff were recently made redundant. The
> Sydney office is now down to about 20 staff, and Melbourne about 50.
> They were all fairly senior developers and managers, and all of the
> remaining contractors.

... From the stage of having three floors bulging with people in
Sydney, and frequent complaints of hardly knowing whether a stranger
was a legitimate staff member or not.

I also heard about the redundancies from a long-left OT worker last week.

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Thread: 10
Subject: Mudgee Abattoir - redundancies/GEERS

Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:55:56 +1000
From: Tom Northey <tn@d...>
Subject: GEERS decides to pay Mudgee Abattoir entitlements within 9
days of lay-offs

This is sure to get you riled.

1 Sep 2003: The board of Mudgee Abattoir decides to call in
administrators
(Note: The Mudgee Regional Abattoir is operated by Cudgegong (Abattoir)
County Council, part of Mudgee Shire council)
3 Sep 2003: Administrators appointed for 6 weeks (PPB chartered
accountants,
which just happens to be the current place of employment of Marcus
Ayres,
formerly of Deloittes).
9 Sep 2003: Mudgee abattoir closes - staff lose jobs
18 Sep 2003: Deputy Prime Minister and Member for Gwydir (i.e. the
local
member) John Anderson announces that GEERS will pay.

a) GEERS to decide to pay 9 days after staff lose jobs - when most
staff
probably haven't even lodged their claims - and 15 days after
administrators
appointed.
b) DEWR does not know the outcome of the administration so they don't
know
if there will be a DoCA compatible with GEERS. I can't even find a
reference to the *first* creditors meeting so it appears not to have
been
held yet.

I can't believe that two-faced Abbott has agreed to this. It's OK to
stand
by your principles in OT's case, but not when it affects the electorate
of
your mate the deputy PM (and Abbott has aspirations to the
prime-ministership).

(And I can't help noticing the similarity of Abbott vs Abattoir -
perhaps
they should reopen that place so they can process one more carcass).

For all the articles in this tale of politicians pork barrelling in the
lead-up to an election that the PM says we're not having, see
http://news.google.com.au/news?hl=en&edition=au&q=Abattoir+mudgee

Note: I have been unable confirm Anderson's announcement anywhere,
including
at any of the following.
http://www.ministers.dotars.gov.au/ja/releases/2003/September/index.htm
http://media.fed.gov.au/
http://www.dotrs.gov.au/dept/media/index.aspx
http://www.dewr.gov.au/ministersAndMediaCentre/mediacentre/default.asp
http://www.liberal.org.au/
http://www.nationalparty.org/

Salient points are covered in the following articles:

Council backs administrator for abattoir
http://tinyurl.com/o1fm
or
http://www.abc.net.au/westernplains/news/200309/s937100.htm
ABC Regional Online, Australia - 1 Sep 2003
An administrator could be appointed to take charge of the Mudgee
abattoir as
soon
as tomorrow. Mudgee Shire Council voted last night to support the move.
...

Abattoir faces uncertain future
http://tinyurl.com/o1ej
or
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7173585%255E1702,00.html
NEWS.com.au, Australia - 4 Sep 2003
MORE than 250 employees of an abattoir at Mudgee are in limbo after an
administrator was appointed to the troubled facility in the state's
central
west.

Mr Steve Parbery, a Senior Partner at PPB chartered accountants, was
appointed administrator of the Mudgee Regional Abattoir on Wednesday,
for a
period of six weeks.
PPB Partner Andrew Smith, head of PPB Rural Services, said today that
he and
Mr Parbery would continue operating the abattoir while assessing its
future
prospects.
"We're currently going through all the numbers to see if the abattoir
can
continue to trade and we hope to be in a position to address that early
next
week," he told AAP.
He said he could not yet say whether there would be job losses.
...

Abattoir closure boosts Mudgee jobless rate
http://tinyurl.com/o1fv
or
http://www.abc.net.au/westernplains/news/200309/s942964.htm
ABC Regional Online, Australia - 10 Sep 2003
The Mudgee abattoir closed yesterday for an indefinite period of time.
...the administrator has told workers that the business is insolvent
and
options are being explored for selling it...
Meanwhile, it appears unlikely staff will be paid their full
entitlements.
Mr Donzow [state secretary for the Meat Industry Employees Union] says
staff
have been told to apply to the Federal Government Employee Entitlements
Scheme.
"Which means that at this stage they'll only receive part of their
entitlements through that scheme," he said.
"Now, the realisation of the rest of their entitlements, we won't know
what's going to happen with that until a definite decision is made
about the
future of the plant."
Mudgee mayor Dennis Yeo says the council has agreed to provide $100,000
to
cover workers' wages for the past week. ...

GEERS to pay entitlements - Mudgee Guardian and Gulgong Advertiser,
Australia
http://tinyurl.com/o1eh
or
http://mudgee.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&category=aba\
ttoir%20uncertainty&story_id=255759&y=2003&m=9
19 Sep 2003

The Federal Government GEERS scheme will pay entitlements due to
workers
thrown off the job by the collapse of the Mudgee Regional Abattoir,
Deputy
Prime Minister and Member for Gwydir John Anderson announced yesterday.

Anderson's announcement late Thursday broke a deadlock between the
state and
federal governments, with each saying the other was responsible. The
impasse
had left workers caught in the middle, feeling angry and bitter that
their
financial security had become a political football.
Mr Anderson announced the decision that broke the deadlock after
meeting
with Federal Minister for Employment & Workplace Relations, Tony
Abbott, in
Canberra.

"I will not stand by and allow workers to suffer as a result of the NSW
Labor Party's refusal to help in this situation," Mr Anderson said.

"I am appalled by the NSW Labor Government's handling of this situation
and
its callous disregard for the workers of Mudgee Regional Abattoir.

"The NSW Labor Party has abandoned the workers and point blank refused
to
consider paying out their entitlements, despite its clear and obvious
moral
responsibility to do so.

"The Federal Government is seeking detailed legal advice on this
situation
and expects to pursue the NSW Government and hold it accountable for
the
entitlements of these employees.

"The State Minister for Local Government, Tony Kelly, is from nearby
Wellington. He should know better than abandon a community and its
workers
in such a difficult time."

Member for Upper Hunter George Souris congratulated Mr Anderson for
arranging the Federal Government support.

"Particularly now with the Federal Government's contribution to the
people
of Mudgee the State Government should contribute a couple of hundred
thousand dollars in working capital to get the abattoir back up and
running
again," Mr Souris said.

The GEERS scheme covers the cost of workers' statutory and community
standard entitlements, although it is capped at a level below that
which
long-term workers would have normally received.

Workers will need to make a formal application under the General
Employee
Entitlements and Redundancy Scheme (GEERS).

Workers were given application forms at the time the abattoir shut down
without notice September 9. Those who need new forms may find out where
to
get them by calling the GEERS hotline: 1300 135 040.




==========

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:51:46 -0000
From: "start_monday" <start_monday@y...>
Subject: Re: GEERS decides to pay Mudgee Abattoir entitlements within 9
days of lay-offs

Another link :

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s948953.htm

Anderson didn't say when they would be getting paid, just that GEERS
would pay if the state government would not. Which, of course, it
won't.

Actually the time frame did not sound at all soon.

==========

Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:56:21 +1000
From: Jane Burren <jane@b...>
Subject: Re: Re: GEERS decides to pay Mudgee Abattoir entitlements
within 9 days of lay-offs

[...]

PS Tom, I laughed and laughed about your suggestion of
reopening the abbatoir to process one more carcass. :-)

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Thread: 11
Subject: Key Mushrooms

There is a loosely held committee, nicknamed "Key OT Mushrooms" (or
more simply "Key Mushrooms"). These are their details (swap all email
addresses before use).

Nick Bishop (nick4mony)
Main email list controller
bigfoot.com @ nick4mony, or
yahoogroups.com.au @ openvictims-owner

Colin Sizer (aussiecol39)
Backup email list controller
woolfware.com @ colin

Paul Davis (paul_davisot)
Backup email list controller
ieee.org @ p.s.davis

Tom Northey (tdnorthey)
Researcher
dugald.net @ tn

If you have any comments on the running of the public OT Mushrooms list,
or the private openVictims list, then contact Nick Bishop first. If
that fails, contact any of the others.

________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Thread: 12
Subject: Age article 23 Sept 2003 Workers losing faith

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:15:48 +1000
From: "GERLACH, Steven" <steven.gerlach@s...>
Subject: From The Age today....

Most Australian workers have lost faith in employers, according to the
results of a new survey.

The survey of 5,000 people in four countries by Kelly Services found
corporate scandals, such as the HIH and Ansett collapses, had harmed
Australian workers' confidence in employers.

It also found 47 per cent of Australians thought most companies did not
have
their employees' best interests at heart.

------

Ain't that the bloody truth!

SG