Hi people,

The report for next Thursday's meeting is now on the Jirsch Sutherland
web site.  Direct link to PDF file: http://shorterlink.com/?65UGPW
(which forwards to
http://www.jirschsutherland.com.au/Upload/SUPPLEMENTARY%20REPORT%20TO%20CREDITOR\
S.pdf
).

They have also posted it out, I got mine yesterday (Thursday).

Nick.

--- In otmushrooms@..., tdnorthey <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Wasn't the previous meeting adjourned?
> I suspect the proxies from the previous meeting are therefore valid
> for this meeting.
> Somebody involved (not me, thank god) should ring them up and ask -
Nick?
>
> OTT employees and ex-employees will remember receiving the report in
> Friday's post and being expected to vote on it on Monday morning.  So
> any reports this mob are going to send out may well arrive the day
> before the meeting.

Yes, that is a good reminder from Tom.

I did ring them up, and they emailed the fresh report. It is available
from this direct link: http://shorterlink.com/?OOHZES (which forwards
to
http://home.lizzy.com.au/nick4mony/SUPPLEMENTARY_REPORT_TO_CREDITORS.pdf )


It seems the Mobilesoft Administrators are different: I think what
Deloitte did was a piece of grubby legal trickery (nothing more &
nothing less).

Michael Chan at Jirsch Sutherland explained that their web site
updating facility is down, but they were quite willing to email it to
me, so I've placed it in my ISP account (as above).

I've got a couple of other files there as well:

1. Minutes of the second creditors' meeting:
http://shorterlink.com/?KID1J4 (forwarding to
http://home.lizzy.com.au/nick4mony/MINUTES.17SEP073.pdf )

2. Report tabled at second meeting (OLD):
http://shorterlink.com/?P55REP (forwarding to
http://home.lizzy.com.au/nick4mony/REPORT_TO_CREDITORS.7SEP07.pdf )

The last two files are also available from the group website: follow
the link at the bottom of this email, then select Files (at left),
then select the Mobilesoft folder (at centre), then pick your file.

Just note the current report is not on the group website, so go to my
ISP account link (1st link above) to get it.

Nick Bishop.

--- In otmushrooms@..., nick4mony <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> According to the Jirsch Sutherland web site, the next meeting of
> creditors has been called:...
> I don't see any reports or formal notices, though. ...
> However, proxies are only valid for one meeting...

Wasn't the previous meeting adjourned?
I suspect the proxies from the previous meeting are therefore valid
for this meeting.
Somebody involved (not me, thank god) should ring them up and ask - Nick?

OTT employees and ex-employees will remember receiving the report in
Friday's post and being expected to vote on it on Monday morning.  So
any reports this mob are going to send out may well arrive the day
before the meeting.

According to the Jirsch Sutherland web site, the next meeting of
creditors has been called:

Sofitel Wentworth Sydney, 61-101 Phillip Street, Sydney NSW 2000 on
Thursday 18 October 2007 at 9.00 am

I don't see any reports or formal notices, though.

If you've lodged a Proof of Debt form before, you don't need to lodge
it again for this meeting, but if you haven't done so, you can use a
proof of debt form from a previous meeting.

However, proxies are only valid for one meeting (subject to any legal
trickery!), so they need to publish their Notice of Meeting, and the
report that must accompany that notice.

Nick.

Hi people,

It looks like the final creditors' meeting could be just around the
corner, so it is wise to check the Administrators' web site once a day.

And if you're the first one to notice, do everyone a favour and send a
message to this group.

While we wait, I'm gathering some unofficial details about what
transpired at the second meeting, although anyone can contribute their
version.

Address to check:
http://jirschsutherland.com.au/Media.aspx?mid=4&crid=6

Nick

Hi everyone,

The Administrators have posted the minutes of the Second Meeting, held
17 Sept, on their web site.

Direct link to PDF file (192kiB)
http://www.jirschsutherland.com.au/Upload/MINUTES.17SEP073.pdf

Highlights:
   1. Conflict of Interest
      Rod Sutherland (the other administrator) is a director of ICE TV,
who are a business partner of Reeltime.  They are a competitor of
Mobilesoft (informal note: they are also in litigation against
Mobilesoft).

      Sule Arnautovic denied there was a conflict of interest.

   2. Acquisition of Secure e-Solutions (Zannelle P/L)
      a. There is a liability of $3,267,824.12 owing for this acquisition.
      b. This acquisition is under investigation


   3. Ten day notice of reconvened meeting


   4. Adjournment of meeting.
      Creditors voted to adjourn the meeting, for a maximum of 60 days
(16 Nov 2007, or earlier).  [informal note: it is possible for them to
seek an extension from the Supreme Court].


Nick Bishop.

Hi,

Just got an answer to one of my questions... they will accept emailed
proxies in PDF format.  Send them to this (despammified, reversed)
address:

    jirschsutherland.com.au {at} lam

Many thanks to Lam Bao at Jirsch Sutherland for being prompt with the
answer.

Nick Bishop.

Hi guyz,

Just got news of the second creditors' meeting for Mobilesoft to be
held  17 September 2007 at the Sofitel Wentworth, 61-101 Phillip
Street, Sydney NSW 2000 at 11.00 am.

It seems they had written their report on Fri 7 September, but took
until Tue 11 September to post it out.

You can also get their report from the Administrators' info page here:
http://www.jirschsutherland.com.au/Media.aspx?mid=4&crid=6
(PDF direct link http://shorterlink.com/?OXB49K which redirects to
http://www.jirschsutherland.com.au/Upload/REPORT%20TO%20CREDITORS.7SEP07.pdf
, it's a 1.5MiB PDF file).

I've got a few questions of the administrators - I'll ask them now by
email, and post their answers here as soon as I hear.

Nick.

Hi People,

For the benefit of Mobilesoft members, I'll highlight some useful
resources here.

First off, you can use this group by email only, or you can visit the
group's home page (URL http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/otmushrooms/
at the bottom of every message).

From the home page, there are many features.

On the Public File Archives ( http://au.geocities.com/nick4mony/otm/ )
there are some key files:

   * admin.pdf - a short run down of the VA process
   * theissues.htm - explains how creditors could be short-changed
   * deed_company_arrangement.pdf - how they work

You can also view previous messages: try these message numbers
  * 491 - Swish - why I'm a little wary
  * 375 - GEERS and Deeds - the requirements explained
  * 453 - A sad story about GEERS
  * 487 - My article in BRW
  * 488 - Another article in the same BRW
  * 508 - Humorous
  * 503/504/506 - When ION went broke.


  ===== CUT HERE IF YOU'RE IN A HURRY =====

Back to the Public File Archives - if you've had a dark day:

   * Busstop.jpg (humour)
   * why_didnt_we_think_of_this.jpg (humour)

If you can't sleep at night, the Corporations Act as it stood in 2002
is there - but if you have a Yahoo ID, please get it from here:
http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/otmushrooms/files

What I was doing while I couldn't sleep:

   * sub036.doc and sub036a.doc - my submission to a Senate inquiry
   * The Corporate Law Stocktake PDF file contains the results of the
Senate inquiry - but if you have a Yahoo ID, please get it from here:
http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/otmushrooms/files

There are also various media stories (including my photo in The Age).


I'll leave it at that so you can digest it all.

Nick Bishop.

Hi people,

In discussions with an insolvency practitioner this morning (Ken
Stout) I learned that a Deed must comply with Schedule 8A of the
Corporations Act.

Amongst other things, this refers to Sec. 556 and Reg. 5.3(A) point 06
clause 4 - which stipulates the priorities to which creditors must be
paid.

This is news to most of us, so I'm going to investigate this further.

If someone is willing to delve into the Corp Act files (on the Files
section of Yahoo Groups), they are still the old versions from 2002
... the question is: did this law exist when the non-compliant OT (or
Swish) Deed was drawn up?

Nick Bishop.
-----
I'm going home now, It's a fr3aking long trip to Vermont South :-(
-oOo-

I will describe briefly (?) below how the VA process runs.  You will
find there is more detail toward the start, because we need to know
that now.

A separate email will describe helpful files and information on this
email group.


PROCESS
=======
Step 1:
Either the company directors, or a secured creditor, can appoint a
Voluntary Administrator(s) if the company does not have enough cash to
pay debts "as and when they fall due" (insolvent).  In the Mobilesoft
case, it was the secured creditor that made the appointment.


Step 2:
Directors lose their power of control over the company.  The
Administrator can decide to continue or stop trading.  If they
continue, they are personally liable for costs incurred from their
appointment.

In Mobilesoft's case, this means that they will pay wages from Tuesday
onwards (whether they will take Tuesday as a half day or whole day is
a bit murky).  The wages from 1 Aug to 20 Aug are very much in limbo.

Trade creditors will be asked to close off accounts and re-open new
accounts under a slightly different name.

In most cases, the Administrators can use the company assets to pay
these new debts.

Shareholders are prohibited from trading their MSO shares (EVEN
OFF-MARKET).  This will impact anyone trying to shuffle assets to
family members, etc, or realise a capital loss.


Step 2a:
Within five days, the Administrators must hold a meeting of creditors.
  At this meeting, creditors have the right to vote on an alternative
administrator, and/or to set up a "Creditors' Committee".

Salient points:
   1. You can teleconference in.  The law says you must meet the costs
of the teleconference (ie costs lie where they fall), and you are not
entitled to add this cost onto your claim.

   1a. My intent at this stage is to use my own calling card to make
the call from the voicepoint in the conference room in Melbourne,
which others can attend.  This is unless the Administrator offers to
set up a teleconference.

   2. While there is a natural apprehension that the Administrator will
be biased in favour of the secured creditor, there is a serious
practical issue with creditors trying to replace the Administrator: if
they are successful, the secured creditor is very likely to appoint a
Receiver.

This means that creditors lose most of their rights, and most
receiverships will wind up the company.

   3. I recommend joining the Committee of Creditors unless you're
TOTALLY uninterested - you cannot join later.  You can always drop
out, or write out a power of attorney.

   4. I'm not entirely sure what powers the Creditors' Committee has.



Step 3:
The Administrators have 21 days to prepare a report and recommend one
of four options:

   1. Return control to directors (if solvent)
   2. Liquidation
   3. Deed of Company Arrangment
   4. Adjournment of up to 60 more days.

They send this out with five days' notice of a meeting to vote on the
options.  A liquidation is fairly obvious, but a Deed is not so
obvious - I will comment on this later.




Step 4:
This depends on the outcome from Step 3.



Along various points of the process there can be various actions by
creditors/directors/administrators - this is what can make the process
complex.

One of the major problems is it is hard for creditors to know their
rights - most creditors do not deal with this process more than once,
but this email group is a partial redress for that.



Hopefully that will get most people started, but people may also like
to look at "admin.pdf", available at
http://au.geocities.com/nick4mony/otm/

Nick Bishop, +613 96966800, Mob: +61438 366342
-----
Has Hird's herd heard about The Hurd?
[Explanation: James Hird is a footy player with the Essendon FC, The
Hurd is a system similar to Linux]
-oOo-

We've got enough members from Mobilesoft, so I'll get started.

The purpose of this group is to help members communicate, particularly
if the administrators decide to send staff home.

This group is actually a fairly large group, that I've been running
for several years (although it's been fairly quiet in recent months).
  Most of the rest of the group consists of members of the Open
Telecommunications Voluntary Administration.

I imagine the old hands will stick around, and give hints and advice
for the newcomers (also expect the odd wacky comment).  There's also
some information and leaflets, and of course some humour, in the Files
section.


I will be sending a few more emails that highlights useful resources
here, and also a quick-and-dirty run-down on the VA process.

The OpenTel and Swish members should also stay tuned: I've stumbled on
some rather interesting information ....

Nick Bishop
-----
Nick Bishop, +613 96966800, Mob: +61438 366342
Has Hird's herd heard about The Hurd?
[Explanation: James Hird is a footy player with the Essendon FC, The
Hurd is a system similar to Linux]
-oOo-

--- In otmushrooms@..., tdnorthey <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone know what the outcome of this vote was?

I called Sallie, she told me the two motions were carried.  She also
told me my dissenting proxy was specifically noted in the minutes.

It mystifies me which creditors voted in favour, or why.

Nick.

Hi all

Unrelated to OT's failure to pay us...

On behalf of a project called "Big Brother Mouse"
(http://www.laobooks.com/support.htm and
http://www.bigbrothermouse.com/) which is producing books for kids in
Laos, I am looking for a Windows programmer for a small project.

The guy who is running the project has developed a new font to typeset
Lao, and needs a program for his Lao people typesetting the books to
easily switch the system font between English and the Lao font. His idea
is to have it run as a background program in Windows (XP), which starts
at startup, with an icon on the task bar to click to toggle between
English and Lao.

If you have the skills and are happy to do a small project to help out,
please drop me a line. Alternatively, feel free to pass this on to
people you know who might have the skills to help out! :-)

Cheers, Jane.

Anyone know what the outcome of this vote was?

I was cleaning up today and found my notes from the creditor's
meeting.   I noted "Stewart Powell stated Company responsible for fees
for the Trust item 7".  Stewart was a company director at that time, IIRC.

Item 7 of the variation of the DOCA says "Any fees, costs or
disbursements incurred by the deed administrator in excess of the
estimated fees of $100,000 provided for in 2.5, be paid by the Trusts
subject to the approval of the Company, or if not approved by the
Company, the approval of the beneficiaries under the Trusts."

I also found notes from 4 Dec 03 when Peter Yates and Sallie Muire
called me.  I noted that they told me "In no worse position (employee
and unsecured creditors).  Company covers all expenses even over $100k"

Required: Senior software engineer (C++, Windows, VS 6.0/2003/2005,  MFC,
DirectShow, etc.).  3+ years experience.  Immediate start.

Please contact me on p.s.davis@... if you are interested.

regards

Paul Davis

Hi,

Spoke with Sallie Muir this morning and got several pieces of helpful
information.

   * Proxys can me made out to "the Chairman".
   * Best to deal with Sallie this morning (02) 9322 5621.  She will be
out for the majority of the afternoon.  The other person (Tony) is on
leave.
   * Fax number for these proxies (02) 9322 7261.

More detailed information
   1. I suspect most people won't actually know anyone who is
physically turning up to the meeting in Sydney (L3/111 Harrington St,
Sydney), so the next best choice is to specify The Chairman (hopefully
his name is not Mao).

   1a. If you are turning up to the meeting, reply to this list.

   2. If you didn't get the documents about this meeting, it can be
emailed out if you contact Sallie.  While she won't be there this
afternoon, leave a voice message, and she can check it and get someone
else to send it [if you leave enough details...]

   3. The fax number is (02) 93227261 - THIS IS NOT ANYWHERE ON THE
MEETING NOTICE/REPORT.  Send the original within 72 hours of faxing.

Nick Bishop
-----
Catering for stupidity #5,386,281
    NEVER GO TO THE BEACH TO WATCH FOR, OR SURF, A TSUNAMI WAVE!
-- Tsunami safety brochure, Malibu, California Oct 2005
-oOo-

--- In otmushrooms@..., nick4mony <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> A notice of meeting has been sent, to approve extra fees for the
> Administration process.

Of course I was talking about the OT administration (as opposed to
Swish or Ion - we do have some of these members on this list).

Now a reminder,
This meeting is tomorrow (Wednesday 11:00am Sydney).  If you have
questions, or (as one contractor has found) you've been dropped off
the radar, people to contact are Sallie Muir (02)93225621 or Tony
Wright (02)93227606.

Nick Bishop
-----
A brass plate seen in Ireland

         Argue & Phibbs
           Solicitors

-- courtesy of the Age.

A notice of meeting has been sent, to approve extra fees for the
Administration process.

I will be voting against these motions.

Support your contractor colleagues and send a message that you don't
think the work of the Administrator/Trustee is up to scratch.

While there is no impact on employee creditors, I do feel that the
Administrators are not starving, and that their work has not been up
to scratch.  If these motions are carried, about 3/4 of the remaining
funds will be used on fees rather than being paid to your contractor
colleagues and other trade creditors.

The other Tuff-Nut question I have is why it has taken all this time
to get this far???  It has taken more than 2 years (since the first
unsecured creditors' distribution in April 2004) to come this far -
and they don't explain what they've been doing.

Fill out the proxy form, tick NO, and send it in to them.

Nick Bishop
-----
Has Hird's herd heard about The Hurd
[James Hird is a footy player for Essendon, The Hurd is a type of Unix]
-oOo-

I just got a letter from my super fund saying I got another super
guarantee payment on 22 Aug (which could only be for OT).  It's for
approx 21% of the first SG payment I got (the first payment was for
about 110% of what OT owed me).

Perhaps the ATO has decided to pay compensation to all of us for the
delays?

I haven't filled in any compensation forms.

Anyone else get this?

The information and forms for lodging compensation claims against the
ATO have been uploaded.

Thanks to David Letcher for beating these out of the Tax Office.  This
is intended for compensation for the lengthy delays in getting super
paid into our accounts.  The files are in both the Public File
Archive, and on the Files section of the group.  The files are:

    Compensation_ATO_Howto.txt
       Copy of email from ATO, how to claim compensation.

    Claiming_ compensation.doc
       Understanding the claims procedure.

    Compensation application.pdf
       Form for claiming compensation from the ATO.

Those with Yahoo ID's should get them from the Files section, those
without can head over to the Public File Archives.

Nick Bishop
-----
A real brass plate, seen in Ireland (I saw it in the Age).

      Argue & Phibbs
        Solicitors
-oOo-

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the otmushrooms
group.

   File        : /Compensationapplication.pdf
   Uploaded by : nick4mony
   Description : (from David Letcher) Form for claiming compensation from the
ATO.

You can access this file at the URL

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/otmushrooms/files/Compensationapplication.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/au/groups/files

Regards,

nick4mony

Richard Watson wrote:
> I notice that OT has vacated 20 Prospect St Box Hill. Can anyone
> tell me what has become of them?

Gone to Tally-Ho technology park.
Renamed s2net
See www.s2net.net

I notice that OT has vacated 20 Prospect St Box Hill. Can anyone tell me
what has become of them?



Richard Watson

Lecturer

Caulfield School of IT

Monash University



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Did the ATO go after S2NET (OT) and get the money? Could we do a civil suite and
get our pay?

Paul


> nick4mony <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In otmushrooms@..., "landau351"
> <david_letcher@a...> wrote:
>
> > I have sent Nick Bishop a copy of an email from "ATO complaints"
> > together with electronic versions of two documents (as I can't post
> > them here).
>
> OK, I've got them on my computer.  They'll be up in a couple of days,
> once I figure out what I can delete from my Public File Archive
> (because it is out of space).
>
> The other thing is ... just today, I got a letter from the ATO
> advising about the payment they made on 26 Oct 2005 for an amount that
> was 110% of the super that was owed by O.T. - that is 110% of the
> total, not 110% of the 43%.  I thought it a bit strange they waited
> until the end of the tax year until they sent this letter.
>
> Nick Bishop
> -----
> For those that don't remember this from the Age a couple of months
> ago: A real brass plate, seen in Ireland
>
>    Argue & Phibbs,
>      Solicitors
> -oOo-
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Reminder: this message is not private.  Anyone (including non-members of
> this group) can read this message in the archives.
>
> Useful links:
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In otmushrooms@..., "landau351"
<david_letcher@a...> wrote:

> I have sent Nick Bishop a copy of an email from "ATO complaints"
> together with electronic versions of two documents (as I can't post
> them here).

OK, I've got them on my computer.  They'll be up in a couple of days,
once I figure out what I can delete from my Public File Archive
(because it is out of space).

The other thing is ... just today, I got a letter from the ATO
advising about the payment they made on 26 Oct 2005 for an amount that
was 110% of the super that was owed by O.T. - that is 110% of the
total, not 110% of the 43%.  I thought it a bit strange they waited
until the end of the tax year until they sent this letter.

Nick Bishop
-----
For those that don't remember this from the Age a couple of months
ago: A real brass plate, seen in Ireland

    Argue & Phibbs,
      Solicitors
-oOo-

Ok, It's been a while, but here is what (finally) transpired.
Nobody on the normal ATO help line knew how to help.  I was told that
I was paid in error, or other complete rubbish.

Eventually I was told that I can contact "ATO complaints".  At the
complaints line, I finally found someone that wasn't a complete idiot
and thus able to unravel the mess and get the monies paid to my new
Super fund.

I was also told that I could claim "compensation" for the incredibly
long time it took them to pay me.  I don't mean since Dec' 05, this
refers to the entire time since OT.

Today I received a letter telling me they approved the claim and paid
more $$ to my Super scheme. YAY!!!

I have sent Nick Bishop a copy of an email from "ATO complaints"
together with electronic versions of two documents (as I can't post
them here).

The first doco is an explanation of what they consider a valid claim
and the 2nd doco was the actual claim sheet.

In part, the info. doc states;

"More information
For compensation enquiries, or to order Applying for compensation
(NAT11669):
• phone the toll-free compensation assistance line on 1800 005 172, or
• email mailto:compensation.application@....
"


Below is the email from Simon telling me how to claim compo.  This
email (and the two attached documents) has been sent to Nick.  I have
asked him to post them here.


=================== email ===================

Information about lodging a compensation claim

I refer to our conversation earlier today in relation to the lodgement
of a compensation claim against the Australian Taxation Office (ATO).

2.         Please find attached an application for compensation form
which you may complete in order to lodge a compensation claim against
the ATO.

3.         The information that the ATO will require in order to
assess your claim is the following:

             (a)    the basis of the claim, focussing in detail, with
particulars, on the losses that you consider you have suffered;

             (b)     the details of how you consider these losses have
been directly caused by the conduct of the Tax Office and or its
officers; and

            (c)      any documentary evidence of the losses claimed
such as, a copy of your Bank statement which notes the amount of the
Dishonour Fee.

  4.          I have attached a copy of an ATO brochure entitled,
"Claiming Compensation" for your information. Please also note that
the ATO has further information available on the website at
www.ato.gov.au.

  5.          Please do not hesitate to call me if you would like me to
clarify or provide you with further information.

Yours sincerely,

Simon Richards
Legal Adviser
Government Law & Practice
Australian Taxation Office

Ph: (02) 6216 1057
Fax: (02) 6216 1247
Email: Simon.Richards@...

Originally, the ATO increased the money owed to me when they made a
payment to my super fund in December 05.

Sadly, they had paid it into an old super scheme.  The old super
scheme then returned it to the ATO who deducted the extra money to a
lower amount than even OT say they owed.  This lower amount was paid
to the new super scheme yesterday.

The Tax office claim that the reversal must be as a result of
something that the employer (OT) has done, or did do, in December 05.

The ATO paid me only what they think OT paid them.  The amounts they
have on record do not add up to the amount claimed to have been paid
by OT.

I am now going to contact OT to see what they had done (if anything)
to reduce my Super entitlement

- David Letcher

Hi all

   I haven't got any letters form ATO. But somebody from ATO called me and said
my super will be sent to my nominated super fund. The amount too seems to be
more than what was originally said. I have to check with my fund now.

   Bandula


tdnorthey <no_reply@...> wrote:
   My online super fund statement says my outstanding OT super was paid
into my super fund on 29 Dec.

The amount was what ATO had said it would be - approx 110% of what was
originally owed rather than 43%.

BTW, I did not receive any letters from the ATO about this.







Reminder: this message is not private.  Anyone (including non-members of this
group) can read this message in the archives.

Useful links:



---------------------------------
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    To visit your group on the web, go to:
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otmushrooms-unsubscribe@...

    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My online super fund statement says my outstanding OT super was paid
into my super fund on 29 Dec.

The amount was what ATO had said it would be - approx 110% of what was
originally owed rather than 43%.

BTW, I did not receive any letters from the ATO about this.