Hallo is there anybody there? All on
holiday.<br>i hope my mail was not so dull it put anybody off
commenting on this forum!<br>im off for a spin on my
motorbike today, hoping for some philosophical
enlightenment , Pirsig-style, on the way!<br>GOODLOVE<br>fae
Sara
HI all<br>Wll done for the mammoth task of
starting an Italian site,Marco. I hope it is fun as well
as serious hard work!<br>I thought I'd follow on on
the subject of translations... Not as dull or
straightforward as one would first think, they are something that
I've been involved in, mostly indirectly through my
man (English to German translator), but also by doing
copy typing and proof reading work for his former
business partner Tim Pownall (linguist extraordinaire),who
is the best translator from German or French into
English, (and a close personal friend of
ours).<br>Language cannot be simply automatically changed from one
country's tongue to another. A bad translation, especially
in literature or philosophy, can completely miss the
point of individual sentences, paragraphs, and even
whole works! On a smaller scale bad translation
can<br>leave out important emphasis, feeling or tone of the
piece.<br>So much more than a scientific representation of
thought in word form, each language is steeped in that
country's (or set of countries with English) CULTURE. The
translator needs to be sensitive to the culture of the
original work in order to understand it in the manner the
author hoped, and be able to make that 'sound right' by
making active sense to the reader in their mother
tongue. Using their own language's literary 'voice' and
traditions is a skill we all take for granted as one of the
many unsaid subjects we learn from introduction in
childhood. <br>--------------<br>Sounds like you need to try
your hand at doing the Norwegian market justice, BO,
by giving those non-english speakers a good version
of pirsigs works to read! No easy task I know, but
judging by your articles and research of the subject you
would seem very qualified... What better way to make a
lasting popularizing bid by reaching thousands more
Northern souls?<br>--------------------<br>Anyway, my
interest and experience around translators has led me to
have a new insight into language, and think about its
role and nature in human endeavor a lot over the last
15 years or so.<br>I was fascinated (as a fine art
student, struggling to maintain faith in making art work
at all) by the concept of the 'author' of a work -
and how this relates to how the work is seen or
understood by the audience.<br>In written work, this is
shown in the personage of the 'narrator' or 'narrative
voice' of a book or piece. How we, as individual
readers, relate to a written work has so much to do with
whether we understand, like or are enthused by the
author's chosen narrative voice when they write.<br>Easily
confused with the real person (who is the author
themself), this narrative voice is infact a seperate entity
and is created as a conjunction between reader and
writer, at the time of reading. That's why a book can
seem very different to us when reading the same one
years apart, or be very meaningful to some and garbage
to others! <br>Popularising:<br>Unfortunately, ZAMM
& Lila and do not 'make a meaningful narrative' for
many people, so translating these books into other
laguages is only one way of spreading the word.<br>The MOQ
has to be written and sung and danced and LIVED in as
many different ways and forms as there are people
inspired by the fundemental principle of QUALITY and
ultimate GOODness.<br> <br>We can all do it, day by day,
in our small ways - show your trust and belief in
GOOD and live true to QUALITY in all ways you
can.<br>Some of us may bring huge works into the world to
inspire many. <br>In order to spread what I have found as
a beautiful, helpful centre for my life, I am
looking for simple ways to express the MOQ central belief
in GOOD.<br>I know its sounds rather vague, but Im
making it up as I go along too!<br>I have taken my first
step at reaching out from an insular life of depressed
pity at the state of the world to SING with some folk
at a local arts centre. Oh the joy of creating a
positive sound!<br><br>Good luck to all, in your quality
creations!
Hi "deadlytoy" and Club.<br>Quite a password you
have chosen for yourself Marco, but warmly welcome to
this recreation home for us wounded on the
battlefields of the moq.org :-). No, really it has calmed down
lately - since the last upheaval at least - it looks
like people are becoming familiar with Internet
discussivons, they are just 4-6 years old and about to
mature.<br><br> By the way, I have at last found a way to relate
to the said sites: I'm subscribed, but uses the mail
filter to delete all posts and just look into the
archives and then respond to what I find interesting. I
find these YAHOO clubs pleasant and easy to navigate.
What about the moq.org. opening such a one instead of
the present mail-list type? Ask the steerers!
<br><br>Regarding the popularization question you are probably
right about Pirsig's force is his being no academic,
and my own opinion about university degree moqists..
well ... I had a message from one Anthony McWatt who
is working on a doctoral thesis about the MoQ and
who wanted to use parts of my "Quality Event", but
had got "red marks" from his consultant professor,
and asked for references and such. Well, that's the
name of the academical game :-) <br><br>Interesting
and true observations about translations and work in
general, the Norwegian ZAMM isn't good either ...and LILA
isn't translate at all.<br>Bo
Hi all! <br><br>May I come in? <br><br>I'm glad
to enter this small club. I'd say it's relaxing, as
I'm used to the crowded *agora* of MD and MF. Someone
of you (Bo, especially) already know me: I'm Marco,
one of the two Italian active contributors. <br><br>I
will not probably be active also in this forum, as
English is not my language and it's really hard for me
follow every mailing list. Mainly I'm here to whish you
fortune in the effort of growing this club. Far from me
any idea that this is a *competitor* of the two
MOQ.org mailing lists. Every *variation on the theme* is
always a good thing. <br><br>Coming to the thread, I
agree with Geoff that Pirsig readers are the
popularizer, right now. Nevertheless, along with Bo, I think
that there's the need for someone to deepen the MOQ
insights. The strange situation is that the MOQ has been
possible also thanks to the fact that Pirsig is not an
academic; but probably, in order to be deepened, now it
needs also some young and innovative academic.
<br><br>And in the meanwhile? Waiting for someone to deepen
it, we can work for another kind of development: the
*enlargement* to a wider range of people. Not that quantity is
quality, of course; but maybe, sooner or later, one among
the many will pop up and take the MOQ where RMP has
left it.<br><br>I subscribed to the MOQ.org lists two
years ago, and immediately I understood the great value
in the direction of a better MOQ understanding.
After 6 months, I felt I could help the MOQ and asked
the MOQ.org steerers for the consent to open an
Italian MOQ site. They agreed, and now, after one year,
the Italian site is working. It has been for me a
great experience. Even if the great part of the job is
about boring translations, I've learnt an incredible
amount of moq related things. <br><br>And the result was
not only personal. Today Italy is the first
non-English country for number of contacts to the MOQ site
(in absolute we are third, after USA and UK). I'm
still working to develop the site, and I do hope this
result will be confirmed. I've discovered that several
studies have been made in Italian universities, even if
there's not a solid *net* of MOQ students. <br><br>Joao,
I see that you had to read the English version of
Pirsig books. Aren't they available in your language?
It's a pity. I remember a French MOQer who said once
that the French version of ZAMM (or Lila?) was a
disaster, and he had to buy the English version to
understand. <br><br>Fortunately we have a good Italian
translations of both, and the books had a good success here.
They have been published by one of the most important
Italian book companies (Adelphi, the same, just as
example, who publishes Kundera). Pirsig's books hace
always a good evidence in our book stores.
<br><br>Actually, the low rate of non English speakers subscribed
to the lists is a sign that the MOQ can hardly be
developed in Latin, Slav or Asian countries. <br><br>In few
words, I think that if we want to increase the
popularization of the MOQ, we should help the MOQ to go out from
the English borders where it lies. I'm giving the
help I can, and I can assure you all it is *good*.
<br><br>It can be done with or without the help of MOQ.org.
On the net, as well as everywhere it's possible. If
someone has good ideas, I'll be glad to offer my help and
experience.<br><br>Ciao to all, and good luck<br>Marco
OK it may be relaxed here Bo, but i dont mind a
bit of controversy to stir the cobwebs in my
brain!<br>What is the particular shocker you were aluding to in
your mail? The idea of extraterrestrials actually
being 'inner' aliens from another state of reality
perhaps??<br>mmm, mumbo jumbo but with potential.<br>I remember
believing as a child that my cats could see ghosts as I
watched my frisky pets battling with some prey invisible
to me... sometimes for many minutes.<br>Sheer
imagination or as yet unexplained realities?<br><br>"write
on, McDuff", as Macbeth didn't say...<br><br>Sara
Hi Sara and Pirsig readers.<br>This small "club"
is such an relaxing place compared to the bedlam of
the Lila Squad and I should beware of introducing any
controversial matter, but Pirsig's Quality Metaphysics is
revolution. Most revolutions brings one 180 degree, but this
has so great momentum that it carries one full
circle. Nothing has changed but everything has. May I use
(our common) Colin Wilson as an point of departure.
<br><br>Yes, his "Outsider" ....!! This was in way back (1959)
and the - then young - Bo was deeply hooked. My early
admiration for CW was as an philosopher, but his stories
were great too because his ideas were never far off. I
won't say one negative thing about him (still buy
whatever he writes)it was only that with Pisig something
even bigger hit. You (all) know that Pirsig in his
Quality Metaphysics (QM) rejects the so-called
SubjectObject Metaphysics (SOM) but Wilson never made THAT step
(even if he hovers on the brink) and keeps up the
mind/matter division (which is SOM's main off-shoot). Of late
he has delved into UFOs, abduction, cattle
mutilations and in his last book "Alien Dawn" he comes close
to the QM again, but at 70 and aspiring to be a
metaphysical innovator you don't give credit to other
thinkers. Like this old hand who seldom enters any
dialogue, but merely lectures :-). <br><br>This piece is to
be continued in which I hope to return to the
"end-of-the-world-idea" in a quality perspective ..for the benefit of
Diana who found it intriguing. <br>Bo
Hi all!<br>Diana - yes, I like your description
about how pain helps us. I too am rather vague about
the process, as this is the first time in my life I
am trying to become conscious about these
things.<br>Dealing with 'inner space' can be considered like 'outer
space' - full of unknowns and surprises. My personal
inner journey to hopefully acquire more of what Jungian
psychologists call 'individuation' is helped by tring to talk
about such things here.<br>The road to living true to
one's own personal sense (mental and emotional) and
trying to quirkiness that makes us all different - is
the great human challenge. My path is currently
fuelled by those such as Pirsig, Dawkins and Clarissa
Estes (Women Who Run with the Wolves...Jungian analyst
and Story teller in the old, mythical way) who have
inspired me to deal with my own past and present pain as
the only way to access the depths of our inner
self.<br><br>Vaguely yours<br>Sara
Sara, I think I understand what you are saying
about pain. It seems to me that pain helps me ‘unlock’
myself; it opens a kind of sensitivity in me. Well, this
is a rather vague explanation, I’m yet to reflect on
it myself.<br><br>Diana
Thanks for this Jaoa...<br>I found it deeply sad,
but beautifully written piece.<br>COndolences to him
and all who have suffered the loss of a close loved
one.<br>Loss and suffering and how we use the deep experiences
to become bigger wiser, fuller humans is something
I've been dealing with personally too. Luckily not
through death in my family, but painful enough all the
same.<br>I am now beginning to see how pain - our own
psychic pain I mean - is something that, through dealing
with it honestly and bravely, is acually a source of
learning and deepening. <br>Sara
Hey Jaoa<br>I checked out the Tao of Poo site a
coupkle of days ago. Very sweet! I still have fond
memories or being read Poo as a child in Scotland.
<br>thanks for cheering the start to a cold dull day for
me!<br>I especially liked the intro page's example of Poo
centring his attention on his stomach asd the most
imposrtant issue of awaking. I have such existential
problems to do anything on awakening most morning
recently!<br>Websites keep me rising to the challenge of life - as does
my super real-life partner, (I think he's a teeny
bit jealous of my online
relationships!!!)<br>Bo<br>Thanks to you too for today's diversion - i finally
visited a site about Colin WIlson, who's seminal 1st work
gave me a sense of huge relief as a struggling
haphazard student in my late teenage years in Oxford...
though I did not really read it properly, the idea of
the outsider, especially the positive side of being
one (which I have felt I am since childhood!)has
remained in my core...<br><br>goodlove <br>fae Sara
For Diana: <br>As said I launched this my
"change-over-time" idea at another site but was informed that a
science-writer, Robert A. Wilson, had anticipated it by many
years. I searched for RAW on the Net and must see if it
matches mine - at least I doubt if any Pirsig/Quality
connection is to be found - and will suspend "the end of the
world" for a while :). Thanks for the interest and stand
by.<br><br>For Sara.<br>Welcome back from the Waddensee on the
"Yansa". So you did not know about Chris Pirsig? The said
afterword (written in Sweden in 1984) is to be found in the
"New Age Edition" of Bantam Books, but surely in other
editions. The afterword is too long to be copied (I have no
scanner), but your comments about crime and punishment are
very apt and explains a long way why LILA got such a
tepid/hostile reception by "intellectuals". <br><br>For
Joao<br>Regarding the bird and monkey examples I couldn't find the
source(s), but they are not important for the synchronicity
of ideas phenomenon, f.ex. Darwin and Wallace
developing the Evolution Theory in parallel.<br>Bo
Hi Bo<br>My version of ZMM did not have the
afterword you mention here. I am curious, perhaps rather
sensationally, and I know I should really concentrate on the
ideas rather than be interested in gory details, but
since the subject is opened I cant help but ask. Can
you copy or summarise it for
me?<br>--------------------<br>I was shocked and horrified to hear that Chris
was
murdered. How awful. <br><br>It must have made it difficult
to remain positive about human posential... and
perhaps explains the energetic strong argument about
eradicating the 'animal' level street gangs of inner cities
through reintroduction of police or army-type forces.
<br>Despite being fervently against martial law and diliking
police force in general, I see the logic that thugs,
hoodlums and bulies need to be forced to obey to the basic
social morals or good conduct and democracy, so we can
live together as more civilised humans, and look to
developing a more enlightened way of life. <br><br>I only
partially see Pirsig's point that the 20th century emphasis
on intellectual refutation of 19th cetury bougeois
strict and hypocritical morals led to the thughs gaining
power. <br><br>Any insights into these issues
anyone?<br>Sara
Hallo Clubbers... & Wow Joao!<br>A lot of words,
and ethusiasm, and desperation about the state of the
world - but I'm not clear about your message or
question or comments about the economic evolution.
<br>Seems to me your long list contains most of what means
life to us now - needs and epidemics, infact focussing
on the problems. Do not forget the good things we
humans have achieved with scientific, philosophical and
social development over the past 4000 years.<br>It's
easy to get lost in all the bad and depressing things,
especially as we can feel so helpless in this super
complicated western world.<br><br>I am reading a fascinating
book, which puts our personal present into the
perspective of evolution on earth.<br>'The Selfish Gene' by
Richard Dawkins (2nd edition). His enthusiasm about the
incredible results of evolution since the 1st beginnings
(molcules forming by random collisions) and the continuing
potential of life on earth is giving me hope that doom and
gloom scenarios need not overcome us!<br><br>Bo -
you'er sounding rather like a harbinger of 'end of the
world is nigh' in your posting. I hope Doom and Gloom
scenarios lift in your next posting<br><br>Hope, peace and
love brothers , sisters and quarks!<br>from an
ex-punk, non hippy, but hopefully someone on the path to
recognising that love is quality)<br><br>Sara
Olá Bo & all,<br><br>I remember you from "The
Quality Event", but never wrote to the Lila Squad, and
only joined the CW after you mentioned it. In the last
two months I've been posting to the moq focus, and
trying to recall ZMM & Lila. I read Lila a long time ago
(3 years?), and didn't "digest" it properly (lack of
*avalability*, you know?) 'cause I went too fast and my english
was +/-. ZMM, on the other hand, is quite present, as
I went through it many times. Yesterday, I started
reading "The Tao of Pooh" (simple & fast reading) and I'm
on my way to Lila. Hope I have the energy..
<br><br>Don't know if you heard of this book.. these links can
give a good idea of it (bet you'll like it, Geoff -
and it has a lot in common with Sara's
writings):<br><br><a href=http://gweezlebur.com/pooh/index.html
target=new>http://gweezlebur.com/pooh/index.html</a><br><a
href=http://www.just-pooh.com/tao.html
target=new>http://www.just-pooh.com/tao.html</a><br><br>By the way, I'm writing
from Portugal.. also find
the Bahia fascinating, Sara, and Brazil in general..
while NZ plays a bit of a mystical role 'cause its in
the "antipodes"(?) of Portugal (this comes from
childhood..)<br><br>"..such sinus curves can't go on - it's forbidden
mathematically.." <br>I think a lot about this.. with the kind of
evolution taking place, (exponential growth in population,
food & energy consumption, pollution production,..)
maybe "space" will be the way out (!) for the future
(western) generations. <br><br>For a start, I would like to
see the "Economic indicators" - as these gain a life
of its own and start "steering" world life -
evolve.. (the United Nations Development Programme is
pointing good directions - but the adoption of that kind
of reasoning is slow (or
stopped))<br><br><a href=http://www.undp.org/hdro/
target=new>http://www.undp.org/hdro/</a><br><a
href=http://www.undp.org/hdro/highlights/statistics.html
target=new>http://www.undp.org/hdro/highlights/statistics.html</a><br><br>Consid\
er, for example, access to safe water, water
withdrawals, renewable water resources, supply of calories fat
& protein, infant mortality, adult literacy,
unemployment, refugies, child labour, slavery, women rights,
work time, suicide rates, jailings, juvenile
convictions, rapes, homicides, housing, sanitation,
dependency, renewable energy use, nuclear waste, hazardous
waste, waste recycling, protected areas, carbon dioxide
emissions, sulfur dioxide emmissions, deforestation, massive
extintion of species, civil rights in general, public
spending in education, in health, in military, phone TV
computer & internet access - info-exclusion, tuberculosis
malaria & AIDS cases,.. I guess it never stops.<br><br>It
is consensual (?) that half of the world population
lives under conditions that the european and the
american (at least) journalists consider sub-human. ..and
yet there's not a lot of action.<br><br>This is
getting long.. I'll leave Pirsig for another time.. he's
always present, anyway.<br><br>Cheers,<br>
João<br><br><br>PS:"..birds opening milk bottles and the monkey's potato
washing technique spreading over great distances and
across the seas.." - where can I find this, Bo? Like
Diana, I'm enthusiastic about your future explanation..
Yes Geoff, and what I was trying to add in my
mailings was that, it is by being affected by Pirsig and
seeing how quality can be achieved in every day in our
own lives, that the true popularising will take
place.<br>That is, not by dogmatic repetition of Pirsig's actual
words, or adherence to any one or two books, but by
living true to one's own inner voices.<br>Keep on
posting y'all <br>(Hi Diana - don't feel you need to
reread or become a scholar to be able to comment, look
to your own sense of quality!<br>Sara
I think a popularizer of Pirsig are in fact his
many readers. My brother's friend recommended that I
read 'ZMM'. This 'word of mouth' allowed me to
discover the wonderful world of Pirsig and not only that
literature in general. <br><br>What I am saying is that just
normal readers can help spread the 'philosophies' of
Robert Pirsig by recommending it to people.<br><br>Of
course a popularizer could be more effective if it was
someone who was well known, although I think if every
normal reader, like you and me just gives people some
advice on what to read it could have the same effect as
a 'popular'
popularizer.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Geoff<br><br>(PS. I have just finished my exams.
Which is
excellent.)
Joao and Club.<br>I thought we had met before -
at the Lila Squad perhaps - but see that you are a
Wilson club member too. OK that's fine, you'll perhaps
have noticed me acting the Pirsig "mole" over
there.<br><br>You are right ...brutal volume of advertising... says
it and the Quality IDEA will possibly not make it as
a product on the marketplace and yet it will make
it somehow. When the time is ripe ideas spread as if
by magic, and not only 'intellectual patterns' but
knowledge in its widest sense, you have possibly heard
about the birds opening milk bottles and the monkey's
potato washing technique spreading over great distances
and across the seas. I can't see what other direction
evolution (in its widest sense) may take right now. I have
this my pet idea that I have shown at the CW site, but
for the benefit of those here I repeat it?
<br><br>Using a hundred year yardstick, a person from 1900
would be completely lost to-day, one from 1800 would
find 1900 a bit strange but manageable. A 1700 person
would recognize most tools and procedures in 1800
(except for the political changes) and so it goes until
there is no perceptibe changes - one from year 8oo
would find nothing new in 900 ...except for the people.
This makes a change/time curve that is almost flat
aeons and then slowly starting to rise around the
Renaissance - more at the Industrial Revolution - and having
become steeper and steeper ever since. There are more
new products (and procedures connected with them)
made during the last few years than throughout the
whole of history. I spoke about a person from 1900
being lost in 2000, but in the infotech branch one is
outdated if away for some months these days (I read about
one who was sacked after a long sick leave). Now, my
idea is that such sinus curves can't go on - it's
forbidden mathematically - there can't be infinitely much
change over no time. But what is there to stop it?
Innovation has become economy itself and the smallest sign
of abation sends shockwaves into the stock exchanges
and experts to talk about stagnation and make it
sound as if collapse is just around the
corner.<br><br>I could go on about this ..... how the Western
world seems locked into a relentless race and tries to
convert all to its progress religion by first creating
the fear of poverty (its "sin") and hope for
development (salvation) and can't comprehend how - for
instance - Islamic fundamentalists refuse to be
converted......but will stop. My idea is of course that the Quality
Metaphysics not only explains the West/Islamic conflict, but
also represent a change for change to stop. How? I
will try to explain, but for now close and join you in
"..you can sort of tell these things." <br>Bo
Hello Sara, Bo, Joao & all,<br><br>I’ve been
keeping away from potential discussions, as I really need
to reread both Lila and ZMM. <br><br>Sara, I like
what you said about the way one could affect others by
living truthfully himself. We express ourselves and
affect others just by being amongst them, just
unintentionally.<br><br>I enjoy reading your postings. I’m also rereading
ZMM and hope to be able to add more to the discussion
soon.<br><br>Diana
Hallo Joao<br>Nice to here another voice here -
where are you writing from - Brazil? <br>(I have a
fascination with Bahia as I co-own a saveiro buiklt in
Cajaiba)<br>I agree everyoe knows what Pirsig is on about - but
few recognise the importance or get to the stage
where it affects their everyday life. I think that is
Bo's concern. <br>How can more people feel EMPOWERED
by their innate inner knowledge of QUALITY. I am
starting to understand how expanding our own versions of
living life with quality as the centre and goal will
lead to a better world for everyone.<br>The
subject/object split has been an extrememly useful tool in
thinking and human development so far, but we now need to
move towards a more 'harmonious', all encompassing
belief system.<br>(And yes the s/object system is a
belief system too!, contrary to scientific dogma)<br>I
know this sounds rather mystical , but it's the best
way I can describe the radical change at the
moment!<br>fuzzy headedness from Sara
Hi Bo, Sara & all,<br><br>I agree that Pirsig
needs a popularizer. The brutal volume of advertising
that hits people every day makes it difficult for them
to discover hidden treasures like Pirsig's books. A
major obstacle is the *availability* that is needed to
read his books, as there's no stopping in daily
routines.. and there's a lot of resistance to face something
like ZMM or Lila, which can have a profound effect on
the way you.. on "your way". <br><br>I guess that the
ones who will enjoy him the most are those who already
know what he's talking about.. well, maybe everyone
does. <br><br>In the end, I'm sure he'll be
remembered.<br>You can sort of tell these things.<br><br>Joao
HI Bo and all (all 2 of us regulars!!??? say
something, anything , someone else, PLEASE!!!)<br><br>Im
back from a sailing week (as mate, and singing
entertainer on a charter ship on the Waddenzee for the
Hemelvaart holidays)... and ready to do a bit of thinking
again - action is necessary for the body, but thought
seems required to stop killing myself with exestential
angst or boredom at the seeming meaninglessness of it
all. <br>Hence my Pirsig interest.<br>About occultism.
I think we all have to keep as open minds as
possible. As Metaphysics is supposed to be where we expand
our human understanding of the universe around us and
within us... so UFOs and other strange reports should be
looked at. <br>My own other focus at the moment is to
look to the very strange world of my own psyche. My
own 'inner space' via dreams and learning Jungian
'active imagination' to try and access more of my human
potential*** through working out our neuroses and unhealthy
thinking and behaviour patterns learned in childhood and
through overcoming our (modern) culture which "recognises
creativity only conditionally" (Dr C.P Estes, author
+jungian analyst and storyteller).<br>*** I mention this
as I think in order to move on as humans, and
achieve a higher state of being, authors such as Pirsig
and Wilson are key, but it's by each individual
striving and contuinually living a creative lif, true to
one's inner direction that fuels this process. Being
true to ones inner directions and strengths on a daily
basis, and, when necessary, bravely facing ridicule,
misunderstanding or opposition of one's own upbringing, society or
tradition is key.<br>This may sound rather flimsey, but i
think I'm on to something!.<br>SO I'd say it's not so
much a case of finding a way to popularise Pirsig
DIRECTLY that is needed, but giving the message that what
inspires you is worth while, whatever it is. If you follow
those sparks of inpiration, with hard work and daily,
plodding meticulous grind to keep the bring something
(anything)into the world you will bring the world further. - so
long as you remain critical and true to the difficult
process of keeping the creative process clear.<br>This
can be realised in the simplest or most complicated
ways. Living your life as mother or hairdresser
'truthfully' is going to have its effect on the world. Not so
much as a great scientist or writer perhaps, but still
its important to sanction peoples individual
creativity.<br>OK Im rambling here - time to go and sand a schooner
some more... but I hope I communicate some of my
optimism about positive change through person action -
however small and seeminlgy insignificant our works may
seem in the big universe!<br><br>My message: Pirsig is
one of many voices of truth and beauty. We should all
try to listen to those wierd rumbings inside and
outside, and make something heard, according to your
special voice.<br>Sara
Pirsig fans.<br>Internet discussions seem to have
only two modes: full ahead and dead stop. I
participate in another site (Colin Wilson) which is
overflowing while this one is dried up, but no problem it
gives me the opportunity to deliver another
monologue.<br><br>The said Colin Wilson (British born 1931 "The
Outsider" his first book) reminds me of Robert Pirsig
because he primarily writes to express ideas and is
perhaps a better writer in the sense that he have
received bad reviews and still go on writing. As an
original thinker, however, Pirsig is light-years ahead but
was too self-critical to publish anything after the
tepid reception of LILA. Yet, it was perhaps the wiser
thing to do - not to build a recluse reputation, but
from a deep quality sense. He has said it, no new
argument will persuade anyone who did not get the message
through ZAMM and LILA, and writing for the sake of
writing is not his thing. <br> Wilson has written about
many phenomena: mostly what one would call occult, his
last venture was about UFOs, while Pirsig has not
touched such stuff (except for the ghost story of ZMM and
the Dharmakaya Light of LILA). There are those who
don't like his "afterword" in (some editions)of ZAMM,
guess it is his wonderings about where Chris went
(after death) that was regarded unseemly. <br> But can a
metaphysics - which is supposed to cover everything there is
- avoid occultism? Or is it so that even the occult
is a subject/ object fallout? That they are observed
don't help - it's merely data. Over at the CW site I
have prayed for Wilson to "discover" Pirsig and start
popularizing his Quality Metaphysics; nobody beats Wilson in
that aspect, but can the MoQ be popularized?
<br>Enough question marks.<br>Bo
Update,<br><br>I have now completed 2 of my 5
exams.<br>English and Economics have been completed,<br>Accounting,
Math with Stats and Classical Studies
left.<br><br>I've delayed the re-reading untill after the
exams.<br><br>Well I'll get back to this thing after all my exams
have finished<br><br>Untill then,<br>Geoff
Hi KA<br>You did not get any response to your
question about the murder of Chris Pirsig, but I'm afraid
that I have no new information on the matter other
than what is found in the afterword of some editions
of the "Zen and the Art..." so as far as I know it's
an unsolved case. I am grateful to have received a
few letters from Robert Pirsig, but have never had
the nerve to ask ...although I believe he wouldn't be
offended. I will at the next chance so stand by.
<br>Sincerely<br>Bo Skutvik
GOOOD LUCK with your studies Geoff - what's your
subject(s)?<br>You didn't mention how you got on with ZMM the 2nd
time around - any flashy, quick comments in between
cramming?<br>I havent read it for ages either, and would be
interested in what you got out of it this time.<br>We can
also be critical of Pirsig - maybe you found certain
bits not so riviting???<br><br>May GOODness be aware
to us all (also those going in to the exam
hall!)<br><br>Sara
Hi Pirsig Club.<br>We suddenly got relatives
visiting from the USA and I had to act the host, but now
things are back to normal.<br><br>For Geoff.<br>Stay
with your school work, we want many (Pirsig)doctors in
our midst.<br><br>Sara! <br>You may remember your
comments to my "commentys"? Anyway this is what I started
to write before the relatives arrived.
<br><br>Confusing! Perhaps. I spent such a long time at the
moq.org.discussions that I take too much for granted. About the
euthanasia issue my opinion is the one about a "last will".
If a written <br>statement is made - OK, but I still
can't see the connection to death penalty. Our
(Norwegian)"Life Testament" is an arrangement initiated by a
movement called "The Human Ethics", but is just about
stopping life-prolonging treatment.<br><br>(Sara): <br>You
said <<the notion of truth is THE major
Intellectual pattern .....>> (snip) I think I am missing
the point rather here! And I think <br>it is a
central one! Can you expand on this difficult subject of
TRUTH and its relation to the 'intellectual level' a
bit? Do you mean <br>that TRUTH exists as the highest
value (Q) in intellectual terms? Perhaps I am still
thinking is Subject /Object terms too much to grasp these
points fully?<br><br>(Me):<br>Thanks for asking me to
expound on this point.<br>You know the paradox that
whatever one says, truth receedes a step back. The
statement ..there is no truth .. becomes a new "truth" etc.
Objectivity counter subjectivity (SOM)is seemingly foolprof,
but here its logic fails and is a dangerous path for
those who demands consistency. In my opinion this was
what broke poor Phaerus of ZAMM. SOM is a mighty tool
but it's like the Sorcerer's Apprentice story, he
knew how to start but not how to stop. P. became its
victim, but somehow he had this vision from the "insane"
no-man's land from where he saw that SOM is a myth of its
own. <br><br>"Truth" a myth?! Isn't that a slippery
slope back into barbarity? Yes, it is. The notion of
what is objective in contrast to subjective is the one
greatest evolutionary step and in my opinion the
"Intellectual level" of the MoQ. This is my interpretation of
the MoQ and something that not all agree with me
about (possibly not Pirsig himself who said he did not
see what it was supposed to solve). For me it solved
EVERYTHING!<br><br>If the "true/false" distinction is the whole
Intellectual Level - and not merely one single intellectual
pattern - it also means that the Q-evolution is in the
process of shaking the intellectual "chains" and that is
also the natural development according to the MoQ
tenets. <br><br>OK this is more than enough. It may sound
as if I left the moq.org to start a new sect over
here, but no, Pirsig is the leading light. <br>Bo
Sorry for not posting lately.<br><br>The reason
is that I have exams approaching next week so I have
been hard at study.<br><br>After next week and a bit,
I will be able to post but until then I'll just
have to lurk.
Halooo...<br>Is there anybody out there?<br>Was
it something I wrote, or is it holiday time for
everyone?<br>Has noone anything to say or discuss about
Porsig/meaning of life and the unioverse and everything? <br>I
have just reread my last message and realise that some
of it is garbage, and I dont like the rather
attecking tone I have have used. <br>Time to try and THINK
and communicate better. I am genuinerly interested in
these important questions and value the chance to
discuss thingsa on this forum.<br><br>Anyway, hallo to
all Pirsig/Philosophisers<br>from Sara
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