Hi Sara,<br>You can find the afterword here:<br><a

href=http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/afterword.html

target=new>http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/Quality/PirsigZen/afterword.html</a>\

<br>don't know how (i)legal it is, but the end is one of Quality..<br>Joao

Hey Jaoa<br>I checked out the Tao of Poo site a

coupkle of days ago. Very sweet! I still have fond

memories or being read Poo as a child in Scotland.

<br>thanks for cheering the start to a cold dull day for

me!<br>I especially liked the intro page's example of Poo

centring his attention on his stomach asd the most

imposrtant issue of awaking. I have such existential

problems to do anything on awakening most morning

recently!<br>Websites keep me rising to the challenge of life - as does

my super real-life partner, (I think he's a teeny

bit jealous of my online

relationships!!!)<br>Bo<br>Thanks to you too for today's diversion - i finally

visited a site about Colin WIlson, who's seminal 1st work

gave me a sense of huge relief as a struggling

haphazard student in my late teenage years in Oxford...

though I did not really read it properly, the idea of

the outsider, especially the positive side of being

one (which I have felt I am since childhood!)has

remained in my core...<br><br>goodlove <br>fae Sara

Thanks for this Jaoa...<br>I found it deeply sad,

but beautifully written piece.<br>COndolences to him

and all who have suffered the loss of a close loved

one.<br>Loss and suffering and how we use the deep experiences

to become bigger wiser, fuller humans is something

I've been dealing with personally too. Luckily not

through death in my family, but painful enough all the

same.<br>I am now beginning to see how pain - our own

psychic pain I mean - is something that, through dealing

with it honestly and bravely, is acually a source of

learning and deepening. <br>Sara

Sara, I think I understand what you are saying

about pain. It seems to me that pain helps me ‘unlock’

myself; it opens a kind of sensitivity in me. Well, this

is a rather vague explanation, I’m yet to reflect on

it myself.<br><br>Diana

Hi all!<br>Diana - yes, I like your description

about how pain helps us. I too am rather vague about

the process, as this is the first time in my life I

am trying to become conscious about these

things.<br>Dealing with 'inner space' can be considered like 'outer

space' - full of unknowns and surprises. My personal

inner journey to hopefully acquire more of what Jungian

psychologists call 'individuation' is helped by tring to talk

about such things here.<br>The road to living true to

one's own personal sense (mental and emotional) and

trying to quirkiness that makes us all different - is

the great human challenge. My path is currently

fuelled by those such as Pirsig, Dawkins and Clarissa

Estes (Women Who Run with the Wolves...Jungian analyst

and Story teller in the old, mythical way) who have

inspired me to deal with my own past and present pain as

the only way to access the depths of our inner

self.<br><br>Vaguely yours<br>Sara

Hi Sara and Pirsig readers.<br>This small "club"

is such an relaxing place compared to the bedlam of

the Lila Squad and I should beware of introducing any

controversial matter, but Pirsig's Quality Metaphysics is

revolution. Most revolutions brings one 180 degree, but this

has so great momentum that it carries one full

circle. Nothing has changed but everything has. May I use

(our common) Colin Wilson as an point of departure.

<br><br>Yes, his "Outsider" ....!! This was in way back (1959)

and the - then young - Bo was deeply hooked. My early

admiration for CW was as an philosopher, but his stories

were great too because his ideas were never far off. I

won't say one negative thing about him (still buy

whatever he writes)it was only that with Pisig something

even bigger hit. You (all) know that Pirsig in his

Quality Metaphysics (QM) rejects the so-called

SubjectObject Metaphysics (SOM) but Wilson never made THAT step

(even if he hovers on the brink) and keeps up the

mind/matter division (which is SOM's main off-shoot). Of late

he has delved into UFOs, abduction, cattle

mutilations and in his last book "Alien Dawn" he comes close

to the QM again, but at 70 and aspiring to be a

metaphysical innovator you don't give credit to other

thinkers. Like this old hand who seldom enters any

dialogue, but merely lectures :-). <br><br>This piece is to

be continued in which I hope to return to the

"end-of-the-world-idea" in a quality perspective ..for the benefit of

Diana who found it intriguing. <br>Bo

OK it may be relaxed here Bo, but i dont mind a

bit of controversy to stir the cobwebs in my

brain!<br>What is the particular shocker you were aluding to in

your mail? The idea of extraterrestrials actually

being 'inner' aliens from another state of reality

perhaps??<br>mmm, mumbo jumbo but with potential.<br>I remember

believing as a child that my cats could see ghosts as I

watched my frisky pets battling with some prey invisible

to me... sometimes for many minutes.<br>Sheer

imagination or as yet unexplained realities?<br><br>"write

on, McDuff", as Macbeth didn't say...<br><br>Sara

Hi all! <br><br>May I come in? <br><br>I'm glad

to enter this small club. I'd say it's relaxing, as

I'm used to the crowded *agora* of MD and MF. Someone

of you (Bo, especially) already know me: I'm Marco,

one of the two Italian active contributors. <br><br>I

will not probably be active also in this forum, as

English is not my language and it's really hard for me

follow every mailing list. Mainly I'm here to whish you

fortune in the effort of growing this club. Far from me

any idea that this is a *competitor* of the two

MOQ.org mailing lists. Every *variation on the theme* is

always a good thing. <br><br>Coming to the thread, I

agree with Geoff that Pirsig readers are the

popularizer, right now. Nevertheless, along with Bo, I think

that there's the need for someone to deepen the MOQ

insights. The strange situation is that the MOQ has been

possible also thanks to the fact that Pirsig is not an

academic; but probably, in order to be deepened, now it

needs also some young and innovative academic.

<br><br>And in the meanwhile? Waiting for someone to deepen

it, we can work for another kind of development: the

*enlargement* to a wider range of people. Not that quantity is

quality, of course; but maybe, sooner or later, one among

the many will pop up and take the MOQ where RMP has

left it.<br><br>I subscribed to the MOQ.org lists two

years ago, and immediately I understood the great value

in the direction of a better MOQ understanding.

After 6 months, I felt I could help the MOQ and asked

the MOQ.org steerers for the consent to open an

Italian MOQ site. They agreed, and now, after one year,

the Italian site is working. It has been for me a

great experience. Even if the great part of the job is

about boring translations, I've learnt an incredible

amount of moq related things. <br><br>And the result was

not only personal. Today Italy is the first

non-English country for number of contacts to the MOQ site

(in absolute we are third, after USA and UK). I'm

still working to develop the site, and I do hope this

result will be confirmed. I've discovered that several

studies have been made in Italian universities, even if

there's not a solid *net* of MOQ students. <br><br>Joao,

I see that you had to read the English version of

Pirsig books. Aren't they available in your language?

It's a pity. I remember a French MOQer who said once

that the French version of ZAMM (or Lila?) was a

disaster, and he had to buy the English version to

understand. <br><br>Fortunately we have a good Italian

translations of both, and the books had a good success here.

They have been published by one of the most important

Italian book companies (Adelphi, the same, just as

example, who publishes Kundera). Pirsig's books hace

always a good evidence in our book stores.

<br><br>Actually, the low rate of non English speakers subscribed

to the lists is a sign that the MOQ can hardly be

developed in Latin, Slav or Asian countries. <br><br>In few

words, I think that if we want to increase the

popularization of the MOQ, we should help the MOQ to go out from

the English borders where it lies. I'm giving the

help I can, and I can assure you all it is *good*.

<br><br>It can be done with or without the help of MOQ.org.

On the net, as well as everywhere it's possible. If

someone has good ideas, I'll be glad to offer my help and

experience.<br><br>Ciao to all, and good luck<br>Marco

Hi "deadlytoy" and Club.<br>Quite a password you

have chosen for yourself Marco, but warmly welcome to

this recreation home for us wounded on the

battlefields of the moq.org :-). No, really it has calmed down

lately - since the last upheaval at least - it looks

like people are becoming familiar with Internet

discussivons, they are just 4-6 years old and about to

mature.<br><br> By the way, I have at last found a way to relate

to the said sites: I'm subscribed, but uses the mail

filter to delete all posts and just look into the

archives and then respond to what I find interesting. I

find these YAHOO clubs pleasant and easy to navigate.

What about the moq.org. opening such a one instead of

the present mail-list type? Ask the steerers!

<br><br>Regarding the popularization question you are probably

right about Pirsig's force is his being no academic,

and my own opinion about university degree moqists..

well ... I had a message from one Anthony McWatt who

is working on a doctoral thesis about the MoQ and

who wanted to use parts of my "Quality Event", but

had got "red marks" from his consultant professor,

and asked for references and such. Well, that's the

name of the academical game :-) <br><br>Interesting

and true observations about translations and work in

general, the Norwegian ZAMM isn't good either ...and LILA

isn't translate at all.<br>Bo

HI all<br>Wll done for the mammoth task of

starting an Italian site,Marco. I hope it is fun as well

as serious hard work!<br>I thought I'd follow on on

the subject of translations... Not as dull or

straightforward as one would first think, they are something that

I've been involved in, mostly indirectly through my

man (English to German translator), but also by doing

copy typing and proof reading work for his former

business partner Tim Pownall (linguist extraordinaire),who

is the best translator from German or French into

English, (and a close personal friend of

ours).<br>Language cannot be simply automatically changed from one

country's tongue to another. A bad translation, especially

in literature or philosophy, can completely miss the

point of individual sentences, paragraphs, and even

whole works! On a smaller scale bad translation

can<br>leave out important emphasis, feeling or tone of the

piece.<br>So much more than a scientific representation of

thought in word form, each language is steeped in that

country's (or set of countries with English) CULTURE. The

translator needs to be sensitive to the culture of the

original work in order to understand it in the manner the

author hoped, and be able to make that 'sound right' by

making active sense to the reader in their mother

tongue. Using their own language's literary 'voice' and

traditions is a skill we all take for granted as one of the

many unsaid subjects we learn from introduction in

childhood. <br>--------------<br>Sounds like you need to try

your hand at doing the Norwegian market justice, BO,

by giving those non-english speakers a good version

of pirsigs works to read! No easy task I know, but

judging by your articles and research of the subject you

would seem very qualified... What better way to make a

lasting popularizing bid by reaching thousands more

Northern souls?<br>--------------------<br>Anyway, my

interest and experience around translators has led me to

have a new insight into language, and think about its

role and nature in human endeavor a lot over the last

15 years or so.<br>I was fascinated (as a fine art

student, struggling to maintain faith in making art work

at all) by the concept of the 'author' of a work -

and how this relates to how the work is seen or

understood by the audience.<br>In written work, this is

shown in the personage of the 'narrator' or 'narrative

voice' of a book or piece. How we, as individual

readers, relate to a written work has so much to do with

whether we understand, like or are enthused by the

author's chosen narrative voice when they write.<br>Easily

confused with the real person (who is the author

themself), this narrative voice is infact a seperate entity

and is created as a conjunction between reader and

writer, at the time of reading. That's why a book can

seem very different to us when reading the same one

years apart, or be very meaningful to some and garbage

to others! <br>Popularising:<br>Unfortunately, ZAMM

& Lila and do not 'make a meaningful narrative' for

many people, so translating these books into other

laguages is only one way of spreading the word.<br>The MOQ

has to be written and sung and danced and LIVED in as

many different ways and forms as there are people

inspired by the fundemental principle of QUALITY and

ultimate GOODness.<br> <br>We can all do it, day by day,

in our small ways - show your trust and belief in

GOOD and live true to QUALITY in all ways you

can.<br>Some of us may bring huge works into the world to

inspire many. <br>In order to spread what I have found as

a beautiful, helpful centre for my life, I am

looking for simple ways to express the MOQ central belief

in GOOD.<br>I know its sounds rather vague, but Im

making it up as I go along too!<br>I have taken my first

step at reaching out from an insular life of depressed

pity at the state of the world to SING with some folk

at a local arts centre. Oh the joy of creating a

positive sound!<br><br>Good luck to all, in your quality

creations!

Hallo is there anybody there? All on

holiday.<br>i hope my mail was not so dull it put anybody off

commenting on this forum!<br>im off for a spin on my

motorbike today, hoping for some philosophical

enlightenment , Pirsig-style, on the way!<br>GOODLOVE<br>fae

Sara

Hallo is there anybody there? All on

holiday.<br>i hope my mail was not so dull it put anybody off

commenting on this forum!<br>im off for a spin on my

motorbike today, hoping for some philosophical

enlightenment , Pirsig-style, on the way!<br>GOODLOVE<br>fae

Sara

Where is everybody?<br>Calling all Pirsig readers - write down a line...

someone! -  and start this ghostly site again - I'm getting lonely here all

alone!<br><br>GOODLOVE<br>from Sara

Hi Sara and Group.<br>Your "trannies" message was

directed mainly to Marco, but as he seems to be away

discovering China (Marco Polo!) and everyone else away on

holiday (this person is just back) I may throw in a word

or two. Languages and translation between the

various kinds is a most fascinating topic and I agree

with your observations here, however my linguistic

ability is limited so I turn to my favourite theme:

language in a MoQ context. <br><br>At the MD a dispute

arose after I had stated that no "primitive" language

has been found. One person said that babies' prattle

was a proto-language, and that languages are merely

sound-making. This is nonsense in my opinion, there is a leap

from one reality into another the moment one enters

the language realm. I have read about a famous person

(to us oldies at least) - Helen Keller - who was born

blind, deaf and mute, but had an awakening when someone

poured water over her hands and then wrote "water" in

the palm; she suddenly understood the principle of

language.<br><br>It's a mystery that it seems to be a complete thing,

how remote the tribe its language is fully developed,

not necessarily of the Indo-<br>European type and its

vocabulary limited to its natural habitat, but nevertheless.

In my opinion grunts and groans are in the same

group as bared fangs and raised bristles: "social

signals" that conveys approval/disapproval very clearly,

but it isn't language proper. Words, grammar, syntax

etc. is something completely different and is

inextricably connected with the the human race. Language and

burial ceremonies seem to have come about at the same

time, which means that language introduces the idea of

"death" into existence (naturally). I also made the claim

that animals are immortal, something that wasn't

understood either. <br><br>But what about the MoQ context?

As I see it, language was the ultimate "social

signal" (pattern) - but so volatile that the DQ

<br>hijacked it to escape the social stasis and enter a new

level in the Q-evolution. Not that language as such is

Intellect, IMO it plays the same role as the carbon atom in

the Inorganic/Biological <br>relationship. Carbon is

matter, yet the building block of life, language is a

social pattern yet the carrier of intellect. <br><br>As

usual SOM makes a mess of everything, in its context

language is (objectively) just sounds/signs, the meaning

is "just in your mind" and thus not real. In the MoQ

light it becomes clear: Each static level is

better/more real than the previous one. Language is

intangible, yet more real than the real ting and when it

entered existence "death" became a reality and the human

beings started burial ceremonies - remember the RITUAL

chapter in Lila!<br><br>(As the mail lists says): "Maybe

in reply to" Sara<br>Bo

Hello, I’m here too. In the last three days I

read some consequent parts of Lila. I found some

similar points with phenomenology. Phenomenology is a

reaction against the natural scientific way of explaining

the reality. As Pirsig says, “Should reality be

something that only a handful of the world’s most advanced

physicists understand?”<br><br>An implication of the above

problem comes to mind. It seems that people, who believe

in the might of science, become less certain in

their own ability to understand reality. That is, if

only a handful of experts can know the reality, then

the ordinary people would have to rely on those

experts’ knowledge. <br><br>MOQ, on the other hand, states

that one can rely on ‘his own sense of Quality’ – as I

recall Sara saying once.<br><br>I’m still on chapter 8.

Reading continues.

I'm glad to be chatting again!<br>What were the

'consequent' pages you were reading Geoff? - Do let us know

how your reading makes sense to you,

personally.<br>Bo:I understand your view of language as "a leap from

one reality into another" and see the communication

of abstract ideas through language of key importance

in human evolution from the day-to-day, instinctual

living of animals to being more conscious beings capable

of seeing their actions and lives outside their

immediate physical surroundings.<br>Its hard to know what

started first, and I imagine a sort of gradual refinement

anyway - from living with and being aware of seasons and

the cycles of life and death and rejuvenation in

plants and animals through refining human grunts to

represent the abstract thoughts of life and death to form

the abstract concept and mental models.<br>You said

"Language is intangible, yet more real than the real thing

and when it entered existence* "death" became a

reality and the human beings started burial ceremonies* -

remember the RITUAL chapter in Lila!"<br>**Do give

details; and please remind me which is the 'ritual'

chapter in Lila, and how you see it relating to

Death.<br>Fascinating stuff! - It comes as no surprise that traces of

language and death artefacts are found at the same time.

The abstract notion of TIME is only accessible

through utilising language, and this central concept

gives reality to the notions of past, present and

future which in turn make DEATH an important event.Yes

humans were also immortal once, like animals still are

today! (as you rightly commented). We 'descended from

the garden of eden' (and paradise?) once the idea of

linear time took hold in human culture. With the concept

of one-directional, not cyclical reality, events

were assembled into a finite chain, called THE PAST.

For example, through story telling of mothers' and

fathers' lives, linking a person through generations

backwards, putting the individual in a fixed place in the

chain of time, rather than being an unconscious part of

'the great wheel' of life where each life is just part

of the great, repeating round of existence. Tracking

a 'history' through recounting the names and events

of ancestors' lives meant each individual's life

could hold special meaning, and we can imagine that

those who lived special lives, would be marked with

burial ceremonies accordingly.

I have a fascination with the tacky, kitsch,

souvenirs we human collect from holidays and trips in an

attempt to fix those events in our minds through looking

at a postcard or cute ceramic object. For me they

are a small example, particular to our culture, of

the human need to have memorials for life and death.

There are, of course, momentous and sometimes monstrous

examples - the pyramids in Egypt are probably the most

amazing tombs ever, (these guys had serious intentions to

be remembered!) and the multi-produced stone statues

of Lenin, once prominent in every Soviet town, were

grey reminders of the comminist dictatorship. <br>In a

way, we can see much of the seemingly relentless quest

of 'modern' civilisation where individuals aim at

attaining vast material wealth and possessions, (with the

American culture being the most extreme example), as an

extension of the 'make your mark' in life. Materialism

forming pyramids of money, rather than leaving your name

as a great thinker or do-gooder for humanity

overall.<br>Which brings me back to Pirsig. I see his writing as

the life's work of a man, which help individuals to

escape the reckless rush into consumer, 'me myself I'

mentality. The books are monuments to the beautiful search

for higher meaning in life, beyond earthly successes,

and try to form a connectedness to a greater GOOD.

<br>Yes, I see a higher level of consciousness as possible

for human beings. This will never be paradisical, we

have left the innocence and brutality of animal

existence long behind - but where we perhaps get a bit of

that interconnected cycle feeling of eden back again.

Through dedicating ourselves to MEANING, and living every

day in the pursuit of QUALITY in our life.

<br><br>Goodlove from Sara

Nowadays people prefer to live on the move: they want to travel, to explore new

places. They want more freedom, more options in life. <br><br>Is this an

unconscious pursuit of Dynamic Quality?

Dear Discoverylover, Sara and all.<br><br>Disco.

wrote in a previous message):<br>&gt; Hello, I’m here

too. In the last three days I read some

consequent<br>&gt; parts of Lila. I found some similar points with

phenomenology.<br>&gt; Phenomenology is a reaction against the natural

scientific way of<br>&gt; explaining the reality. As Pirsig

says, “Should reality be something<br>&gt; that only a

handful of the world’s most advanced physicists<br>&gt;

understand?”<br><br>Agreement about the last line. Over at the Pirsig/MoQ

discuss/focus forums there are so many who want to demonstrate

how complex (their understanding of) Pirsig's system

is and of philosophy in general is (maybe I have

sinned too:) but I have often referred to the said

passage about small children. The MoQ is <br>the simplest

possible view of reality. About phenomenology I am a bit

rusty at the moment, is that Husserl or Heidegger or

..? <br> <br>&gt; An implication of the above problem

comes to mind. It seems that<br>&gt; people, who

believe in the might of science, become less certain

in<br>&gt; their own ability to understand reality. That is,

if only a handful of<br>&gt; experts can know the

reality, then the ordinary people would have to<br>&gt;

rely on those experts’ knowledge. <br><br>I was once

an avid reader of science magazines (still subscribe

to Scientific American) but I have stopped believing

that they speak about any ultimate truth. There is

however a great respect for titles and positions;

Doctorates, professors, "chairs" at this or that University,

bah!. The most rigid minds are the university

"philosophologists". They don't recognize an idea unless it's at least

<br>two hundred years old, but as Pirsig has

demonstrated; Social value play a <br>major role, so its part

of the game. <br>Thanks from the eternal amateur

...whatever.<br>Bo<br><br>PS for Sara.<br>To do your input justice I must

return to it in a separate post.

Bo: << is that Husserl or Heidegger or ..?

&gt;&gt;<br><br>Yes, exactly. I’m not too much familiar with it

myself. But it seems to me that they basically try to

‘create room’ in the Western thought for that which P.

later calls Dynamic Quality. They speak of the freedom

of consciousness etc. Well, at least there’s analogy

with DQ.<br><br>Thanks for your comment. I’m advancing

with my reading of Lila. Will share more thoughts

soon.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Diana

Hi Club! <br><br>Here again, sorry if I can

stumble across this place just once a month... anyway,

I've seen very good posts, so maybe you don't need me

:-) <br><br><br>===========<br><br>** Deadly Toy **

<br><br>Bo:<br>Quite a password you have chosen for yourself

Marco<br><br>M:<br>Well, it was the name of the punk band I used to play

drums with, about twenty years ago.....

<br><br><br>==============<br><br>** TransLation ** <br>( Latin Trans=Across +

Latum,

past form of Ferre=To Carry. The same exact etymology

of TransFer ).<br><br>Sara: <br>The translator needs

to be sensitive to the culture of the original work

in order to understand it in the manner the author

hoped, and be able to make that 'sound right' by making

active sense to the reader in their mother tongue. Using

their own language's literary 'voice' and traditions is

a skill we all take for granted as one of the many

unsaid subjects we learn from introduction in childhood.

<br><br>M:<br>Indeed. And anyway I think it is a chimera to believe you

have really understood what the author was feeling and

meaning, even in your own tongue. You have rightly shown

it in these terms: <br><br>Sara: <br>[the] narrative

voice is infact a seperate entity and is created as a

conjunction between reader and writer, at the time of

reading. That's why a book can seem very different to us

when reading the same one years apart, or be very

meaningful to some and garbage to others! <br><br>M:<br>Yes,

in other words, the Quality of the novel I'm reading

occurs in the event when the reader and the writer meet.

<br><br>When we read a novel, we transfer it into our personal

*unique* culture, and actually the only novels everyone

agrees on are the novels with nothing to say (nothing to

transfer)! Of course the language barrier is a further

complication, as even the excellent translator can't be a

*transparent medium*. <br><br>An example of the difficulty of

a fair translation is in Lila. When Pirsig writes

"Good as a noun rather an adjective is all the MOQ is

about", I think the Italian translator has spent weeks to

translate this simple statement, the most important

statement of the whole book. In facts, in English, "Good"

is both an adjective (right, valid, honest...) and a

noun (welfare, profit, advantage, commodity); even if

the adjective is the main usage, I guess this

statement is clear to an English reader. But in Italian we

have two terms: "Buono" the adjective, and "Bene" the

noun. They have both the same etymology, of course, but

in our language the two terms have been in the past

separated. So, when I've read first that we should consider

"Buono" as an noun, the statement was a bit cryptic. Only

when I've seen it in English I understood there was

nothing of "mystic" in the sentence. But in Italian is

practically impossible to render transparently. <br><br>(TO

BE CONTINUED....)

.... PART II<br><br>** Language, Rituals and the

MOQ **<br><br>How many time did we discuss language

Bo? Dozens? Hundreds? Well, we used to agree, but

lately I've changed my opinion. I've delivered a message

on MD about it, but really I don't know if you have

seen it. <br><br>It is long, so I did not repost it

here. As I have seen that the thread had been touched

even here, I just repeat some of the tenets. If

someone is interested to the whole message, it is

available at:

<a href=http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0107/0199.html

target=new>http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0107/0199.html</a><br><b\

r>I've stated that IMO language is NOT the DNA of

intellect, as we used to agree upon. In few words, the

central tenet is that there is not "one" level of

existence for things, there's just a level in which they

ARISE, then they will be used and empowered, if needed,

by all the upper levels. For example, matter arises

as inorganic, then it's used by every level: a

sculpture is a more evolved form of matter. My current

opinion about language is that it arose as communication

(chemical, phonic or visible or whatever else, it doesn't

matter) , in the biological-to-social transition, so IMO

communication is the biological code for the social patterns.

There's no social pattern without communication.

<br><br>Then intellect found it among the lower level

"things", and empowered it for its purposes. That is:

language is a more evolved form of communication. But it

is not the social code for intellect. If intellect

arises with the concept of the self (and I think you

agree on this more than me), it's hard to see

communication (something that unifies people) as the *maker* of

the self. IMO the social pattern that has created the

individual is the ritual division of labor. <br><br>The

Chapter 30 of Lila seems to support this view:

<br><br>".. anthropological studies of contemporary primitive

tribes suggest that stone<br>age people were probably

bound by ritual all day long. There's a ritual

for<br>washing, for putting up a house, for hunting, for eating

and so on - so much<br>that the division between

"ritual" and "knowledge" becomes indistinct.

In<br>cultures without books ritual seems to be a public library

for teaching the<br>young and preserving common

values and information".<br><br>" These rituals may be

the connecting link between the social and

the<br>intellectual levels of evolution. One can imagine primitive

song-rituals and<br>dance-rituals associated with certain

cosmology stories, myths, which generated<br>the first

primitive religions. From these the first intellectual

truths could<br>have been derived".<br><br>Dividing

labor and giving a component a solitary duty, the Giant

gains the possibility of quick decisions, and becomes

more efficient... while the single becomes a Subject,

more than merely a number: being temporary alone, the

individual has to choose on the basis of his own experience,

and learns to judge his own old choices. <br><br>So,

division of labor and the connected rituals have been the

social basis for the intellect creation. The role of

language is indeed great, but IMHO passive in this

transition. When we need to explain something to someone who

will have to live isolated for some times, we have to

refer to possible future scenarios; and when the

isolated comes back to explain what's happened, he must

use a symbolic language to indicate something past.

And "giving things a name" is VERY intellectual. In

few words what's happened? The *excellent isolated*

invented a different form of communication to share a

different kind of knowledge, and used what was already

available in the lower level (social non symbolic

language), empowering it for the new requirements. Intellect

was born.<br><br>=====<br><br>Well, it's late and I

have to go. It has been *a good* to stay here with

you. Take care of yourselves. Hope to come back

soon.<br><br>Ciao, <br>Marco

(I had to post this separately for the lencth of

the previous message)<br><br><br>Diana:<br>Nowadays

people prefer to live on the move: they want to travel,

to explore new places. They want more freedom, more

options in life. <br><br>Is this an unconscious pursuit

of Dynamic Quality? <br><br>M:<br>Yes, even if I'm a

bit cautious with the term "unconscious"... just as

it's hard to state what consciousness is. Anyway, the

Chatwin's book "The Songlines", that inspired the MD post

I've mentioned in my precedent message, explores this

fundamental question: Why do people prefer to move rather

than to stay still? In few words, the answer is that

the evolution of mankind is strictly related with

nomadism. <br><br>Ciao, <br>Marco

Sara wrote:<br>&gt; The books are monuments to

the beautiful<br>&gt; search for higher meaning in

life, beyond earthly successes, and try<br>&gt; to form

a connectedness to a greater GOOD. Yes, I see a

higher level<br>&gt; of consciousness as possible for

human beings. This will never be<br>&gt; paradisical,

we have left the innocence and brutality of

animal<br>&gt; existence long behind - but where we perhaps get

a bit of that<br>&gt; interconnected cycle feeling

of eden back again. Through dedicating<br>&gt;

ourselves to MEANING, and living every day in the pursuit

of QUALITY<br>&gt; in our life. <br><br>Dear Sara

and All.<br>I am a bit reluctant to speak about the

Quality Metaphysics' impact on the "meaning of life"

issue, it has a religious ring to it and we are supposed

to be strictly rational, but I'll try to convey my

take on this issue. Your "greater GOOD" triggered it.

<br><br>In LILA Pirsig says that the quality idea isn't new

rather the oldest there is and my interpretation is as

follows. The "proto" approach to explaining reality was

that all aspects of existence were different god's

domains. This was common to all pre-modern mythologies

....up to a critical point in history and in what

loosely may be called the Mediterranean world. In Greece

the shift took the form we know in usual lingo to be

the emergence of philosophy and the first inkling of

the sciences (in MoQish: dividing the world into

subjective and objective). Afterwards the gods became

subjective fantasies and the world objective matter.

<br><br>Over at the other shore a similar yet different

development took place (this is thousands of years before

Christ) where the idea of monotheism emerged - in Egypt

presumably and adopted by the Hebrews - an by and by

resulted in the replacement of the different separate gods

by the omni-everything Jahve of this region. A

distant deity who had created the world an left it to its

own fate. There are a many details that could be

added and the time scale is millennia, but the Greek

subject/object idea and the Semitic Jahve merged in Christianity

with the material body and a spiritual soul

(mind/matter) and a God that could save this soul. <br><br>This

is RELIGION as we Westerners know it with the

notorious sceptic/believer chasm that makes us feel that we

have to forego reason to be a Christian. Science goes

to great lengths to tell us that it is completely

neutral and that it does not say anything about "the

final things", yet uses each opportunity to tell that

all such is speculations, that existence is without

meaning - at the final plane. <br><br>To keep this within

bounds my interpretation of Pirsig's statement is that

the MoQ is a return to a pre-Greek, pre-everything

situation. No, simple retro-movement, but a spiral one that

brings it back at a higher plane. If MoQ's "intellectual

level" can be equalized with the subject-object dualism,

then the level below (the Social) is the said

pre-everything situation. But - as also said - this is no

retro-movement, the new higher plane is a new 5th Q-level, which

(this is terribly important) according to the MoQ each

level - to obtain control over the lower - sort of

joins force with the next lower. The 5th will

"sympathize" with the social level ...which is the old world

of a god-world - not a material godless

place!<br><br>Robert Pirsig may have stumbled upon the wrestler's grip

(he does not endorse the above, but maintains the

safe position that the MoQ is a better i n t e l l e c

t u a l idea than the SOM) that leaves

SOM-cum-Intellect-cum-Reason powerless ...for the ever first time. To me this

is the wonder of it and what keeps me at the

discussions acting the role of the proverbial Dutch boy who

put a finger in each hole in the dyke ...against a

tide of well-meaning "spiritualism" - which I

sympathize with, but will lay the MoQ wide open to ridicule.

I know it sounds pompous, but it's my deepest

"credo".<br>Bo

Bo <br>I was first annoyed, then disappointed and

finally slightly cynically amused inreaction to your

previous comment:<br><br>"I am a bit reluctant to speak

about the Quality Metaphysics' impact on the "meaning

of life" issue, it has a religious ring to it and we

are supposed to be strictly rational,"<br><br>Who is

this "we"? This is an open, informal chat website not

an academic university department! There are no

rules of what you can say (outside lewdness or

insults). I was so glad to have this forum to try and

express my experiences of Pirsig's work. My responses are

definitely not limited to rational thoughts! I welcomed the

chance to the chance to share responses with others in a

non-pretentious way, non-academic way. <br><br>Infact, my whole

reason for starting to write to this site was my strong

EMOTIONAL response to the underlying PHILOSOPHICAL message

I got through reading Pirsig's LILA. <br>For me,

Pirsig's 'metaphysics of quality' goes beyond rational

discussion. This is philosophy. Philosophy has always been

and continues to be mankind's search for higher

meaning to life (and the universe and everything), by

tackling the difficult, fundamental questions over the

millennia of history, without resorting to the belief in

God to explain away any difficulties in a viewpoint.

<br>That is the only important difference with a religion.

At it's most abstract I BELIEVE in the idea and

reality of GOOD and VALUE, and know how these things are

fundamental to my finding meaning in my life. I would imagine

no one will manage to PROVE the idea that QUALITY

underpins the universe. At that level it is a belief, and a

very beautiful one at that… in the sense that pure

mathematics can be beautiful, and a genius chess game can be

beautiful, and well as the more romantic examples of beauty

known as harmony, love and truth.<br><br>His book gave

me an intellectual framework which made more sense

of the mess of human existence, (from past to

possible future evolutions) than thinkers limited to

rational thought, which I see as part of the

subject/objective way of dividing up the universe and our

experiences.<br><br>Funnily enough, your opening comments remind me of just

that kind of dogmatic approach that I see as the

driving force behind Pirsig's writing. He speaks out so

well against intellectual academic "-ologists" in the

form of university professors' who blight education

systems around the world. I applaud his 'kick against the

pricks' by exposing those narrow-minded thinkers' refusal

to live in the 'real world' of full human

experience, by being wrapped up in an inward-looking

self-referential spiral of dry theories, retreating away from

common experience with the rest of humanity.

<br><br>Enlightenment is the aim, not mystification or complicated

mumbo jumbo only academics could read. <br><br>Let

emotion in!<br>GOODLOVE fae Sara

Sara and All.<br>God, this is the

misunderstanding of the year, but entirely my fault. The

<br>opening paragraph was meant to be slightly ironic ....we

are supposed to be <br>strictly rational .....is an

exasperation over the hopeless religion/rational <br>impasse

of SOM where the rationalists have had the upper

hand - until <br>Pirsig's MoQ! I couldn't agree more

(with your criticism) had it been my <br>position, but

it isn't. Particularly do I applaud the introduction

of emotions as <br>a major influence (value), if

Marco still listens in he will know our struggle to

<br>have them fixed into the MoQ. I'll say no more

<br>that this affirms the "warning" that what you mean to

say isn't always read <br>that way, but again -

sincere apologies.<br>Bo

What a relief Bo!<br>I may be prone to negative,

paranoid thinking, but I really didn't guess your cinicism

in that paragraph. Context context...<br>I have been

guilty of letting my argumentation slide into rather

slushy emotionalism, though. This openness to the

expression of emotional resposes to the world is NEW for me,

and I am stil 'finding my voice'... but i think its

well worth trying! <br>Did you or any others read the

article recently written by John Beasley (Understanding

quality on the MOQ org site). I found it after writing my

'angry mail' and was relieved to read that he concurred,

and explained in more detail, many of my points and

feelings on the subject.<br>I also agreed with his overall

criticism of Pirsig's own over-intellectualisation in the

books. I find Beasley's piece good, and overall a useful

commentary. <br>By the way I found the rest of your post

sensible and well explained... more

later.<br>goodlove<br>fae Sara

HI All, especially those I talked to earlier this

year. <br>We all been doing other things, and this site

remains as a graveyard in the memory of

Pirsig...<br>Anyone want to share what they've been up to...or where

they are on line now?<br>I have been on a few Jungian

sites, Jung Page Forum under pseudonym 'Yansa'.<br>I am

reading Clarissa Estes at the moment... and she started

the Jungian interest for me this spring with her 'run

with the wolves' book. I have started trying to

further access my own 'shadow' material and integrate it

back into my conscious life. THis is often painful to

attempt as there is so much negativity there - so many

angry 'monsters' ... but it's a noble quest... and I am

hopeful...<br>Hope you are all well and finding hope and love in

your lives...<br>May Pirsigian notions of GOOD follow

and accompany you all,<br>Sara

Dear Sara and Club<br>you wrote:<br>&gt; HI All,

especially those I talked to earlier this year. <br>&gt; We

all been doing other things, and this site remains as

a graveyard<br>&gt; in the memory of Pirsig...

Anyone want to share what they've been up<br>&gt;

to...or where they are on line now? I have been on a few

Jungian<br>&gt; sites, Jung Page Forum under pseudonym 'Yansa'. I

am reading Clarissa<br>&gt; Estes at the moment...

and she started the Jungian interest for me<br>&gt;

this spring with her 'run with the wolves' book. I

have started trying<br>&gt; to further access my own

'shadow' material and integrate it back into<br>&gt; my

conscious life. THis is often painful to attempt as there

is so<br>&gt; much negativity there - so many angry

'monsters' ... but it's a noble<br>&gt; quest... and I am

hopeful... Hope you are all well and finding hope<br>&gt;

and love in your lives... May Pirsigian notions of

GOOD follow and<br>&gt; accompany you all, Sara

<br><br>Shame on me and everybody else for not checking out the

Pirsig <br>Club site, my excuse is that I have resigned

the telephone line to <br>my studio place (to

concentrate better on painting) and only <br>connect in the

weekends and ....well, the Yahoo site got <br>neglected.

However this a Pirsig memorial is a bit premature, over

<br>at the moq.org site the discussion goes like

wildfire - naturally <br>spurred on by the recent

happenings - yet not abating after more <br>that five years

and that must be some Internet record. <br><br>What

we have been up to? I act the terror of our local

newspapers <br>(2) reader's letter column trying to get the

MoQ to bear on the world <br>affairs, but have to be

very careful and grit my mental teeth as it's <br>next

to impossible without going back to square one at

every other <br>sentence. But who wants to be told

anything these days? I think <br>we are living in an era

much like the time when the old gods lost <br>their

power and scores of prophets filled the paths. But I

think there <br>will emerge one at last and you know

who!<br><br>The Clarissa Estes book and Jung interest I have no

opinion about <br>but you certainly find it rewarding. At

times I participate at a Colin <br>Wilson (another

Yahoo Club) site and CW often refers to Jung in <br>his

works. To relax from to much philosophy I read the books

from <br>my childhood that I now try to find if as

good in their original <br>language ...it's only

English I master to the degree of telling and <br>have

just finished Dickens "Great Expectations" and is now

into <br>Stevenson's "Kidnapped". Being a Scot you

probably know that <br>book and its settings? It's

supposed to be from the 1750ties and <br>wow, they were

different times. Poor David Balfour has just got <br>ashore

from the shipwreck off Mull and is about to rejoin his

<br>renegade friend - there were some political upheaval at

that time.<br>Enough chatting.<br>How is Yansa ...the

schooner?<br>Bo

Dear Sara! <br>I come from Slovenia and I like

philosophy. Currently I was reading Pirsig's book Zen and the

Art of the motorcycle maintenance and I kind of

cannot understand everything well.<br>I have to tell you

that I liked your comments about the book. I was

wondering if you could help me answering these two

questions?<br>1. Pirsig speaks of Phaedrus wielding an analytic

knife. What do you think is this tool? Give an example

of how we might use it in human nature? Do you thing

it would be a valuable tool in our work?<br>2. The

narrator discusses and quotes Albert Einstein on the

nature of scientific inquiry ( chapter 10). What do you

think you learn about the nature of scientific

knowledge?<br>I would really appreciate your help.<br>Thank you

and best regards,<br>Ana