What a relief Bo!<br>I may be prone to negative,
paranoid thinking, but I really didn't guess your cinicism
in that paragraph. Context context...<br>I have been
guilty of letting my argumentation slide into rather
slushy emotionalism, though. This openness to the
expression of emotional resposes to the world is NEW for me,
and I am stil 'finding my voice'... but i think its
well worth trying! <br>Did you or any others read the
article recently written by John Beasley (Understanding
quality on the MOQ org site). I found it after writing my
'angry mail' and was relieved to read that he concurred,
and explained in more detail, many of my points and
feelings on the subject.<br>I also agreed with his overall
criticism of Pirsig's own over-intellectualisation in the
books. I find Beasley's piece good, and overall a useful
commentary. <br>By the way I found the rest of your post
sensible and well explained... more
later.<br>goodlove<br>fae Sara
Sara and All.<br>God, this is the
misunderstanding of the year, but entirely my fault. The
<br>opening paragraph was meant to be slightly ironic ....we
are supposed to be <br>strictly rational .....is an
exasperation over the hopeless religion/rational <br>impasse
of SOM where the rationalists have had the upper
hand - until <br>Pirsig's MoQ! I couldn't agree more
(with your criticism) had it been my <br>position, but
it isn't. Particularly do I applaud the introduction
of emotions as <br>a major influence (value), if
Marco still listens in he will know our struggle to
<br>have them fixed into the MoQ. I'll say no more
<br>that this affirms the "warning" that what you mean to
say isn't always read <br>that way, but again -
sincere apologies.<br>Bo
Bo <br>I was first annoyed, then disappointed and
finally slightly cynically amused inreaction to your
previous comment:<br><br>"I am a bit reluctant to speak
about the Quality Metaphysics' impact on the "meaning
of life" issue, it has a religious ring to it and we
are supposed to be strictly rational,"<br><br>Who is
this "we"? This is an open, informal chat website not
an academic university department! There are no
rules of what you can say (outside lewdness or
insults). I was so glad to have this forum to try and
express my experiences of Pirsig's work. My responses are
definitely not limited to rational thoughts! I welcomed the
chance to the chance to share responses with others in a
non-pretentious way, non-academic way. <br><br>Infact, my whole
reason for starting to write to this site was my strong
EMOTIONAL response to the underlying PHILOSOPHICAL message
I got through reading Pirsig's LILA. <br>For me,
Pirsig's 'metaphysics of quality' goes beyond rational
discussion. This is philosophy. Philosophy has always been
and continues to be mankind's search for higher
meaning to life (and the universe and everything), by
tackling the difficult, fundamental questions over the
millennia of history, without resorting to the belief in
God to explain away any difficulties in a viewpoint.
<br>That is the only important difference with a religion.
At it's most abstract I BELIEVE in the idea and
reality of GOOD and VALUE, and know how these things are
fundamental to my finding meaning in my life. I would imagine
no one will manage to PROVE the idea that QUALITY
underpins the universe. At that level it is a belief, and a
very beautiful one at that… in the sense that pure
mathematics can be beautiful, and a genius chess game can be
beautiful, and well as the more romantic examples of beauty
known as harmony, love and truth.<br><br>His book gave
me an intellectual framework which made more sense
of the mess of human existence, (from past to
possible future evolutions) than thinkers limited to
rational thought, which I see as part of the
subject/objective way of dividing up the universe and our
experiences.<br><br>Funnily enough, your opening comments remind me of just
that kind of dogmatic approach that I see as the
driving force behind Pirsig's writing. He speaks out so
well against intellectual academic "-ologists" in the
form of university professors' who blight education
systems around the world. I applaud his 'kick against the
pricks' by exposing those narrow-minded thinkers' refusal
to live in the 'real world' of full human
experience, by being wrapped up in an inward-looking
self-referential spiral of dry theories, retreating away from
common experience with the rest of humanity.
<br><br>Enlightenment is the aim, not mystification or complicated
mumbo jumbo only academics could read. <br><br>Let
emotion in!<br>GOODLOVE fae Sara
Sara wrote:<br>> The books are monuments to
the beautiful<br>> search for higher meaning in
life, beyond earthly successes, and try<br>> to form
a connectedness to a greater GOOD. Yes, I see a
higher level<br>> of consciousness as possible for
human beings. This will never be<br>> paradisical,
we have left the innocence and brutality of
animal<br>> existence long behind - but where we perhaps get
a bit of that<br>> interconnected cycle feeling
of eden back again. Through dedicating<br>>
ourselves to MEANING, and living every day in the pursuit
of QUALITY<br>> in our life. <br><br>Dear Sara
and All.<br>I am a bit reluctant to speak about the
Quality Metaphysics' impact on the "meaning of life"
issue, it has a religious ring to it and we are supposed
to be strictly rational, but I'll try to convey my
take on this issue. Your "greater GOOD" triggered it.
<br><br>In LILA Pirsig says that the quality idea isn't new
rather the oldest there is and my interpretation is as
follows. The "proto" approach to explaining reality was
that all aspects of existence were different god's
domains. This was common to all pre-modern mythologies
....up to a critical point in history and in what
loosely may be called the Mediterranean world. In Greece
the shift took the form we know in usual lingo to be
the emergence of philosophy and the first inkling of
the sciences (in MoQish: dividing the world into
subjective and objective). Afterwards the gods became
subjective fantasies and the world objective matter.
<br><br>Over at the other shore a similar yet different
development took place (this is thousands of years before
Christ) where the idea of monotheism emerged - in Egypt
presumably and adopted by the Hebrews - an by and by
resulted in the replacement of the different separate gods
by the omni-everything Jahve of this region. A
distant deity who had created the world an left it to its
own fate. There are a many details that could be
added and the time scale is millennia, but the Greek
subject/object idea and the Semitic Jahve merged in Christianity
with the material body and a spiritual soul
(mind/matter) and a God that could save this soul. <br><br>This
is RELIGION as we Westerners know it with the
notorious sceptic/believer chasm that makes us feel that we
have to forego reason to be a Christian. Science goes
to great lengths to tell us that it is completely
neutral and that it does not say anything about "the
final things", yet uses each opportunity to tell that
all such is speculations, that existence is without
meaning - at the final plane. <br><br>To keep this within
bounds my interpretation of Pirsig's statement is that
the MoQ is a return to a pre-Greek, pre-everything
situation. No, simple retro-movement, but a spiral one that
brings it back at a higher plane. If MoQ's "intellectual
level" can be equalized with the subject-object dualism,
then the level below (the Social) is the said
pre-everything situation. But - as also said - this is no
retro-movement, the new higher plane is a new 5th Q-level, which
(this is terribly important) according to the MoQ each
level - to obtain control over the lower - sort of
joins force with the next lower. The 5th will
"sympathize" with the social level ...which is the old world
of a god-world - not a material godless
place!<br><br>Robert Pirsig may have stumbled upon the wrestler's grip
(he does not endorse the above, but maintains the
safe position that the MoQ is a better i n t e l l e c
t u a l idea than the SOM) that leaves
SOM-cum-Intellect-cum-Reason powerless ...for the ever first time. To me this
is the wonder of it and what keeps me at the
discussions acting the role of the proverbial Dutch boy who
put a finger in each hole in the dyke ...against a
tide of well-meaning "spiritualism" - which I
sympathize with, but will lay the MoQ wide open to ridicule.
I know it sounds pompous, but it's my deepest
"credo".<br>Bo
(I had to post this separately for the lencth of
the previous message)<br><br><br>Diana:<br>Nowadays
people prefer to live on the move: they want to travel,
to explore new places. They want more freedom, more
options in life. <br><br>Is this an unconscious pursuit
of Dynamic Quality? <br><br>M:<br>Yes, even if I'm a
bit cautious with the term "unconscious"... just as
it's hard to state what consciousness is. Anyway, the
Chatwin's book "The Songlines", that inspired the MD post
I've mentioned in my precedent message, explores this
fundamental question: Why do people prefer to move rather
than to stay still? In few words, the answer is that
the evolution of mankind is strictly related with
nomadism. <br><br>Ciao, <br>Marco
.... PART II<br><br>** Language, Rituals and the
MOQ **<br><br>How many time did we discuss language
Bo? Dozens? Hundreds? Well, we used to agree, but
lately I've changed my opinion. I've delivered a message
on MD about it, but really I don't know if you have
seen it. <br><br>It is long, so I did not repost it
here. As I have seen that the thread had been touched
even here, I just repeat some of the tenets. If
someone is interested to the whole message, it is
available at:
<a href=http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0107/0199.html
target=new>http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/0107/0199.html</a><br><b\
r>I've stated that IMO language is NOT the DNA of
intellect, as we used to agree upon. In few words, the
central tenet is that there is not "one" level of
existence for things, there's just a level in which they
ARISE, then they will be used and empowered, if needed,
by all the upper levels. For example, matter arises
as inorganic, then it's used by every level: a
sculpture is a more evolved form of matter. My current
opinion about language is that it arose as communication
(chemical, phonic or visible or whatever else, it doesn't
matter) , in the biological-to-social transition, so IMO
communication is the biological code for the social patterns.
There's no social pattern without communication.
<br><br>Then intellect found it among the lower level
"things", and empowered it for its purposes. That is:
language is a more evolved form of communication. But it
is not the social code for intellect. If intellect
arises with the concept of the self (and I think you
agree on this more than me), it's hard to see
communication (something that unifies people) as the *maker* of
the self. IMO the social pattern that has created the
individual is the ritual division of labor. <br><br>The
Chapter 30 of Lila seems to support this view:
<br><br>".. anthropological studies of contemporary primitive
tribes suggest that stone<br>age people were probably
bound by ritual all day long. There's a ritual
for<br>washing, for putting up a house, for hunting, for eating
and so on - so much<br>that the division between
"ritual" and "knowledge" becomes indistinct.
In<br>cultures without books ritual seems to be a public library
for teaching the<br>young and preserving common
values and information".<br><br>" These rituals may be
the connecting link between the social and
the<br>intellectual levels of evolution. One can imagine primitive
song-rituals and<br>dance-rituals associated with certain
cosmology stories, myths, which generated<br>the first
primitive religions. From these the first intellectual
truths could<br>have been derived".<br><br>Dividing
labor and giving a component a solitary duty, the Giant
gains the possibility of quick decisions, and becomes
more efficient... while the single becomes a Subject,
more than merely a number: being temporary alone, the
individual has to choose on the basis of his own experience,
and learns to judge his own old choices. <br><br>So,
division of labor and the connected rituals have been the
social basis for the intellect creation. The role of
language is indeed great, but IMHO passive in this
transition. When we need to explain something to someone who
will have to live isolated for some times, we have to
refer to possible future scenarios; and when the
isolated comes back to explain what's happened, he must
use a symbolic language to indicate something past.
And "giving things a name" is VERY intellectual. In
few words what's happened? The *excellent isolated*
invented a different form of communication to share a
different kind of knowledge, and used what was already
available in the lower level (social non symbolic
language), empowering it for the new requirements. Intellect
was born.<br><br>=====<br><br>Well, it's late and I
have to go. It has been *a good* to stay here with
you. Take care of yourselves. Hope to come back
soon.<br><br>Ciao, <br>Marco
Hi Club! <br><br>Here again, sorry if I can
stumble across this place just once a month... anyway,
I've seen very good posts, so maybe you don't need me
:-) <br><br><br>===========<br><br>** Deadly Toy **
<br><br>Bo:<br>Quite a password you have chosen for yourself
Marco<br><br>M:<br>Well, it was the name of the punk band I used to play
drums with, about twenty years ago.....
<br><br><br>==============<br><br>** TransLation ** <br>( Latin Trans=Across +
Latum,
past form of Ferre=To Carry. The same exact etymology
of TransFer ).<br><br>Sara: <br>The translator needs
to be sensitive to the culture of the original work
in order to understand it in the manner the author
hoped, and be able to make that 'sound right' by making
active sense to the reader in their mother tongue. Using
their own language's literary 'voice' and traditions is
a skill we all take for granted as one of the many
unsaid subjects we learn from introduction in childhood.
<br><br>M:<br>Indeed. And anyway I think it is a chimera to believe you
have really understood what the author was feeling and
meaning, even in your own tongue. You have rightly shown
it in these terms: <br><br>Sara: <br>[the] narrative
voice is infact a seperate entity and is created as a
conjunction between reader and writer, at the time of
reading. That's why a book can seem very different to us
when reading the same one years apart, or be very
meaningful to some and garbage to others! <br><br>M:<br>Yes,
in other words, the Quality of the novel I'm reading
occurs in the event when the reader and the writer meet.
<br><br>When we read a novel, we transfer it into our personal
*unique* culture, and actually the only novels everyone
agrees on are the novels with nothing to say (nothing to
transfer)! Of course the language barrier is a further
complication, as even the excellent translator can't be a
*transparent medium*. <br><br>An example of the difficulty of
a fair translation is in Lila. When Pirsig writes
"Good as a noun rather an adjective is all the MOQ is
about", I think the Italian translator has spent weeks to
translate this simple statement, the most important
statement of the whole book. In facts, in English, "Good"
is both an adjective (right, valid, honest...) and a
noun (welfare, profit, advantage, commodity); even if
the adjective is the main usage, I guess this
statement is clear to an English reader. But in Italian we
have two terms: "Buono" the adjective, and "Bene" the
noun. They have both the same etymology, of course, but
in our language the two terms have been in the past
separated. So, when I've read first that we should consider
"Buono" as an noun, the statement was a bit cryptic. Only
when I've seen it in English I understood there was
nothing of "mystic" in the sentence. But in Italian is
practically impossible to render transparently. <br><br>(TO
BE CONTINUED....)
Bo: << is that Husserl or Heidegger or ..?
>><br><br>Yes, exactly. I’m not too much familiar with it
myself. But it seems to me that they basically try to
‘create room’ in the Western thought for that which P.
later calls Dynamic Quality. They speak of the freedom
of consciousness etc. Well, at least there’s analogy
with DQ.<br><br>Thanks for your comment. I’m advancing
with my reading of Lila. Will share more thoughts
soon.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Diana
Dear Discoverylover, Sara and all.<br><br>Disco.
wrote in a previous message):<br>> Hello, I’m here
too. In the last three days I read some
consequent<br>> parts of Lila. I found some similar points with
phenomenology.<br>> Phenomenology is a reaction against the natural
scientific way of<br>> explaining the reality. As Pirsig
says, “Should reality be something<br>> that only a
handful of the world’s most advanced physicists<br>>
understand?”<br><br>Agreement about the last line. Over at the Pirsig/MoQ
discuss/focus forums there are so many who want to demonstrate
how complex (their understanding of) Pirsig's system
is and of philosophy in general is (maybe I have
sinned too:) but I have often referred to the said
passage about small children. The MoQ is <br>the simplest
possible view of reality. About phenomenology I am a bit
rusty at the moment, is that Husserl or Heidegger or
..? <br> <br>> An implication of the above problem
comes to mind. It seems that<br>> people, who
believe in the might of science, become less certain
in<br>> their own ability to understand reality. That is,
if only a handful of<br>> experts can know the
reality, then the ordinary people would have to<br>>
rely on those experts’ knowledge. <br><br>I was once
an avid reader of science magazines (still subscribe
to Scientific American) but I have stopped believing
that they speak about any ultimate truth. There is
however a great respect for titles and positions;
Doctorates, professors, "chairs" at this or that University,
bah!. The most rigid minds are the university
"philosophologists". They don't recognize an idea unless it's at least
<br>two hundred years old, but as Pirsig has
demonstrated; Social value play a <br>major role, so its part
of the game. <br>Thanks from the eternal amateur
...whatever.<br>Bo<br><br>PS for Sara.<br>To do your input justice I must
return to it in a separate post.
Nowadays people prefer to live on the move: they want to travel, to explore new
places. They want more freedom, more options in life. <br><br>Is this an
unconscious pursuit of Dynamic Quality?
I have a fascination with the tacky, kitsch,
souvenirs we human collect from holidays and trips in an
attempt to fix those events in our minds through looking
at a postcard or cute ceramic object. For me they
are a small example, particular to our culture, of
the human need to have memorials for life and death.
There are, of course, momentous and sometimes monstrous
examples - the pyramids in Egypt are probably the most
amazing tombs ever, (these guys had serious intentions to
be remembered!) and the multi-produced stone statues
of Lenin, once prominent in every Soviet town, were
grey reminders of the comminist dictatorship. <br>In a
way, we can see much of the seemingly relentless quest
of 'modern' civilisation where individuals aim at
attaining vast material wealth and possessions, (with the
American culture being the most extreme example), as an
extension of the 'make your mark' in life. Materialism
forming pyramids of money, rather than leaving your name
as a great thinker or do-gooder for humanity
overall.<br>Which brings me back to Pirsig. I see his writing as
the life's work of a man, which help individuals to
escape the reckless rush into consumer, 'me myself I'
mentality. The books are monuments to the beautiful search
for higher meaning in life, beyond earthly successes,
and try to form a connectedness to a greater GOOD.
<br>Yes, I see a higher level of consciousness as possible
for human beings. This will never be paradisical, we
have left the innocence and brutality of animal
existence long behind - but where we perhaps get a bit of
that interconnected cycle feeling of eden back again.
Through dedicating ourselves to MEANING, and living every
day in the pursuit of QUALITY in our life.
<br><br>Goodlove from Sara
I'm glad to be chatting again!<br>What were the
'consequent' pages you were reading Geoff? - Do let us know
how your reading makes sense to you,
personally.<br>Bo:I understand your view of language as "a leap from
one reality into another" and see the communication
of abstract ideas through language of key importance
in human evolution from the day-to-day, instinctual
living of animals to being more conscious beings capable
of seeing their actions and lives outside their
immediate physical surroundings.<br>Its hard to know what
started first, and I imagine a sort of gradual refinement
anyway - from living with and being aware of seasons and
the cycles of life and death and rejuvenation in
plants and animals through refining human grunts to
represent the abstract thoughts of life and death to form
the abstract concept and mental models.<br>You said
"Language is intangible, yet more real than the real thing
and when it entered existence* "death" became a
reality and the human beings started burial ceremonies* -
remember the RITUAL chapter in Lila!"<br>**Do give
details; and please remind me which is the 'ritual'
chapter in Lila, and how you see it relating to
Death.<br>Fascinating stuff! - It comes as no surprise that traces of
language and death artefacts are found at the same time.
The abstract notion of TIME is only accessible
through utilising language, and this central concept
gives reality to the notions of past, present and
future which in turn make DEATH an important event.Yes
humans were also immortal once, like animals still are
today! (as you rightly commented). We 'descended from
the garden of eden' (and paradise?) once the idea of
linear time took hold in human culture. With the concept
of one-directional, not cyclical reality, events
were assembled into a finite chain, called THE PAST.
For example, through story telling of mothers' and
fathers' lives, linking a person through generations
backwards, putting the individual in a fixed place in the
chain of time, rather than being an unconscious part of
'the great wheel' of life where each life is just part
of the great, repeating round of existence. Tracking
a 'history' through recounting the names and events
of ancestors' lives meant each individual's life
could hold special meaning, and we can imagine that
those who lived special lives, would be marked with
burial ceremonies accordingly.
Hello, I’m here too. In the last three days I
read some consequent parts of Lila. I found some
similar points with phenomenology. Phenomenology is a
reaction against the natural scientific way of explaining
the reality. As Pirsig says, “Should reality be
something that only a handful of the world’s most advanced
physicists understand?”<br><br>An implication of the above
problem comes to mind. It seems that people, who believe
in the might of science, become less certain in
their own ability to understand reality. That is, if
only a handful of experts can know the reality, then
the ordinary people would have to rely on those
experts’ knowledge. <br><br>MOQ, on the other hand, states
that one can rely on ‘his own sense of Quality’ – as I
recall Sara saying once.<br><br>I’m still on chapter 8.
Reading continues.
Hi Sara and Group.<br>Your "trannies" message was
directed mainly to Marco, but as he seems to be away
discovering China (Marco Polo!) and everyone else away on
holiday (this person is just back) I may throw in a word
or two. Languages and translation between the
various kinds is a most fascinating topic and I agree
with your observations here, however my linguistic
ability is limited so I turn to my favourite theme:
language in a MoQ context. <br><br>At the MD a dispute
arose after I had stated that no "primitive" language
has been found. One person said that babies' prattle
was a proto-language, and that languages are merely
sound-making. This is nonsense in my opinion, there is a leap
from one reality into another the moment one enters
the language realm. I have read about a famous person
(to us oldies at least) - Helen Keller - who was born
blind, deaf and mute, but had an awakening when someone
poured water over her hands and then wrote "water" in
the palm; she suddenly understood the principle of
language.<br><br>It's a mystery that it seems to be a complete thing,
how remote the tribe its language is fully developed,
not necessarily of the Indo-<br>European type and its
vocabulary limited to its natural habitat, but nevertheless.
In my opinion grunts and groans are in the same
group as bared fangs and raised bristles: "social
signals" that conveys approval/disapproval very clearly,
but it isn't language proper. Words, grammar, syntax
etc. is something completely different and is
inextricably connected with the the human race. Language and
burial ceremonies seem to have come about at the same
time, which means that language introduces the idea of
"death" into existence (naturally). I also made the claim
that animals are immortal, something that wasn't
understood either. <br><br>But what about the MoQ context?
As I see it, language was the ultimate "social
signal" (pattern) - but so volatile that the DQ
<br>hijacked it to escape the social stasis and enter a new
level in the Q-evolution. Not that language as such is
Intellect, IMO it plays the same role as the carbon atom in
the Inorganic/Biological <br>relationship. Carbon is
matter, yet the building block of life, language is a
social pattern yet the carrier of intellect. <br><br>As
usual SOM makes a mess of everything, in its context
language is (objectively) just sounds/signs, the meaning
is "just in your mind" and thus not real. In the MoQ
light it becomes clear: Each static level is
better/more real than the previous one. Language is
intangible, yet more real than the real ting and when it
entered existence "death" became a reality and the human
beings started burial ceremonies - remember the RITUAL
chapter in Lila!<br><br>(As the mail lists says): "Maybe
in reply to" Sara<br>Bo
Where is everybody?<br>Calling all Pirsig readers - write down a line...
someone! - and start this ghostly site again - I'm getting lonely here all
alone!<br><br>GOODLOVE<br>from Sara
Hallo is there anybody there? All on
holiday.<br>i hope my mail was not so dull it put anybody off
commenting on this forum!<br>im off for a spin on my
motorbike today, hoping for some philosophical
enlightenment , Pirsig-style, on the way!<br>GOODLOVE<br>fae
Sara
Hallo is there anybody there? All on
holiday.<br>i hope my mail was not so dull it put anybody off
commenting on this forum!<br>im off for a spin on my
motorbike today, hoping for some philosophical
enlightenment , Pirsig-style, on the way!<br>GOODLOVE<br>fae
Sara
HI all<br>Wll done for the mammoth task of
starting an Italian site,Marco. I hope it is fun as well
as serious hard work!<br>I thought I'd follow on on
the subject of translations... Not as dull or
straightforward as one would first think, they are something that
I've been involved in, mostly indirectly through my
man (English to German translator), but also by doing
copy typing and proof reading work for his former
business partner Tim Pownall (linguist extraordinaire),who
is the best translator from German or French into
English, (and a close personal friend of
ours).<br>Language cannot be simply automatically changed from one
country's tongue to another. A bad translation, especially
in literature or philosophy, can completely miss the
point of individual sentences, paragraphs, and even
whole works! On a smaller scale bad translation
can<br>leave out important emphasis, feeling or tone of the
piece.<br>So much more than a scientific representation of
thought in word form, each language is steeped in that
country's (or set of countries with English) CULTURE. The
translator needs to be sensitive to the culture of the
original work in order to understand it in the manner the
author hoped, and be able to make that 'sound right' by
making active sense to the reader in their mother
tongue. Using their own language's literary 'voice' and
traditions is a skill we all take for granted as one of the
many unsaid subjects we learn from introduction in
childhood. <br>--------------<br>Sounds like you need to try
your hand at doing the Norwegian market justice, BO,
by giving those non-english speakers a good version
of pirsigs works to read! No easy task I know, but
judging by your articles and research of the subject you
would seem very qualified... What better way to make a
lasting popularizing bid by reaching thousands more
Northern souls?<br>--------------------<br>Anyway, my
interest and experience around translators has led me to
have a new insight into language, and think about its
role and nature in human endeavor a lot over the last
15 years or so.<br>I was fascinated (as a fine art
student, struggling to maintain faith in making art work
at all) by the concept of the 'author' of a work -
and how this relates to how the work is seen or
understood by the audience.<br>In written work, this is
shown in the personage of the 'narrator' or 'narrative
voice' of a book or piece. How we, as individual
readers, relate to a written work has so much to do with
whether we understand, like or are enthused by the
author's chosen narrative voice when they write.<br>Easily
confused with the real person (who is the author
themself), this narrative voice is infact a seperate entity
and is created as a conjunction between reader and
writer, at the time of reading. That's why a book can
seem very different to us when reading the same one
years apart, or be very meaningful to some and garbage
to others! <br>Popularising:<br>Unfortunately, ZAMM
& Lila and do not 'make a meaningful narrative' for
many people, so translating these books into other
laguages is only one way of spreading the word.<br>The MOQ
has to be written and sung and danced and LIVED in as
many different ways and forms as there are people
inspired by the fundemental principle of QUALITY and
ultimate GOODness.<br> <br>We can all do it, day by day,
in our small ways - show your trust and belief in
GOOD and live true to QUALITY in all ways you
can.<br>Some of us may bring huge works into the world to
inspire many. <br>In order to spread what I have found as
a beautiful, helpful centre for my life, I am
looking for simple ways to express the MOQ central belief
in GOOD.<br>I know its sounds rather vague, but Im
making it up as I go along too!<br>I have taken my first
step at reaching out from an insular life of depressed
pity at the state of the world to SING with some folk
at a local arts centre. Oh the joy of creating a
positive sound!<br><br>Good luck to all, in your quality
creations!
Hi "deadlytoy" and Club.<br>Quite a password you
have chosen for yourself Marco, but warmly welcome to
this recreation home for us wounded on the
battlefields of the moq.org :-). No, really it has calmed down
lately - since the last upheaval at least - it looks
like people are becoming familiar with Internet
discussivons, they are just 4-6 years old and about to
mature.<br><br> By the way, I have at last found a way to relate
to the said sites: I'm subscribed, but uses the mail
filter to delete all posts and just look into the
archives and then respond to what I find interesting. I
find these YAHOO clubs pleasant and easy to navigate.
What about the moq.org. opening such a one instead of
the present mail-list type? Ask the steerers!
<br><br>Regarding the popularization question you are probably
right about Pirsig's force is his being no academic,
and my own opinion about university degree moqists..
well ... I had a message from one Anthony McWatt who
is working on a doctoral thesis about the MoQ and
who wanted to use parts of my "Quality Event", but
had got "red marks" from his consultant professor,
and asked for references and such. Well, that's the
name of the academical game :-) <br><br>Interesting
and true observations about translations and work in
general, the Norwegian ZAMM isn't good either ...and LILA
isn't translate at all.<br>Bo
Hi all! <br><br>May I come in? <br><br>I'm glad
to enter this small club. I'd say it's relaxing, as
I'm used to the crowded *agora* of MD and MF. Someone
of you (Bo, especially) already know me: I'm Marco,
one of the two Italian active contributors. <br><br>I
will not probably be active also in this forum, as
English is not my language and it's really hard for me
follow every mailing list. Mainly I'm here to whish you
fortune in the effort of growing this club. Far from me
any idea that this is a *competitor* of the two
MOQ.org mailing lists. Every *variation on the theme* is
always a good thing. <br><br>Coming to the thread, I
agree with Geoff that Pirsig readers are the
popularizer, right now. Nevertheless, along with Bo, I think
that there's the need for someone to deepen the MOQ
insights. The strange situation is that the MOQ has been
possible also thanks to the fact that Pirsig is not an
academic; but probably, in order to be deepened, now it
needs also some young and innovative academic.
<br><br>And in the meanwhile? Waiting for someone to deepen
it, we can work for another kind of development: the
*enlargement* to a wider range of people. Not that quantity is
quality, of course; but maybe, sooner or later, one among
the many will pop up and take the MOQ where RMP has
left it.<br><br>I subscribed to the MOQ.org lists two
years ago, and immediately I understood the great value
in the direction of a better MOQ understanding.
After 6 months, I felt I could help the MOQ and asked
the MOQ.org steerers for the consent to open an
Italian MOQ site. They agreed, and now, after one year,
the Italian site is working. It has been for me a
great experience. Even if the great part of the job is
about boring translations, I've learnt an incredible
amount of moq related things. <br><br>And the result was
not only personal. Today Italy is the first
non-English country for number of contacts to the MOQ site
(in absolute we are third, after USA and UK). I'm
still working to develop the site, and I do hope this
result will be confirmed. I've discovered that several
studies have been made in Italian universities, even if
there's not a solid *net* of MOQ students. <br><br>Joao,
I see that you had to read the English version of
Pirsig books. Aren't they available in your language?
It's a pity. I remember a French MOQer who said once
that the French version of ZAMM (or Lila?) was a
disaster, and he had to buy the English version to
understand. <br><br>Fortunately we have a good Italian
translations of both, and the books had a good success here.
They have been published by one of the most important
Italian book companies (Adelphi, the same, just as
example, who publishes Kundera). Pirsig's books hace
always a good evidence in our book stores.
<br><br>Actually, the low rate of non English speakers subscribed
to the lists is a sign that the MOQ can hardly be
developed in Latin, Slav or Asian countries. <br><br>In few
words, I think that if we want to increase the
popularization of the MOQ, we should help the MOQ to go out from
the English borders where it lies. I'm giving the
help I can, and I can assure you all it is *good*.
<br><br>It can be done with or without the help of MOQ.org.
On the net, as well as everywhere it's possible. If
someone has good ideas, I'll be glad to offer my help and
experience.<br><br>Ciao to all, and good luck<br>Marco
OK it may be relaxed here Bo, but i dont mind a
bit of controversy to stir the cobwebs in my
brain!<br>What is the particular shocker you were aluding to in
your mail? The idea of extraterrestrials actually
being 'inner' aliens from another state of reality
perhaps??<br>mmm, mumbo jumbo but with potential.<br>I remember
believing as a child that my cats could see ghosts as I
watched my frisky pets battling with some prey invisible
to me... sometimes for many minutes.<br>Sheer
imagination or as yet unexplained realities?<br><br>"write
on, McDuff", as Macbeth didn't say...<br><br>Sara
Hi Sara and Pirsig readers.<br>This small "club"
is such an relaxing place compared to the bedlam of
the Lila Squad and I should beware of introducing any
controversial matter, but Pirsig's Quality Metaphysics is
revolution. Most revolutions brings one 180 degree, but this
has so great momentum that it carries one full
circle. Nothing has changed but everything has. May I use
(our common) Colin Wilson as an point of departure.
<br><br>Yes, his "Outsider" ....!! This was in way back (1959)
and the - then young - Bo was deeply hooked. My early
admiration for CW was as an philosopher, but his stories
were great too because his ideas were never far off. I
won't say one negative thing about him (still buy
whatever he writes)it was only that with Pisig something
even bigger hit. You (all) know that Pirsig in his
Quality Metaphysics (QM) rejects the so-called
SubjectObject Metaphysics (SOM) but Wilson never made THAT step
(even if he hovers on the brink) and keeps up the
mind/matter division (which is SOM's main off-shoot). Of late
he has delved into UFOs, abduction, cattle
mutilations and in his last book "Alien Dawn" he comes close
to the QM again, but at 70 and aspiring to be a
metaphysical innovator you don't give credit to other
thinkers. Like this old hand who seldom enters any
dialogue, but merely lectures :-). <br><br>This piece is to
be continued in which I hope to return to the
"end-of-the-world-idea" in a quality perspective ..for the benefit of
Diana who found it intriguing. <br>Bo
Hi all!<br>Diana - yes, I like your description
about how pain helps us. I too am rather vague about
the process, as this is the first time in my life I
am trying to become conscious about these
things.<br>Dealing with 'inner space' can be considered like 'outer
space' - full of unknowns and surprises. My personal
inner journey to hopefully acquire more of what Jungian
psychologists call 'individuation' is helped by tring to talk
about such things here.<br>The road to living true to
one's own personal sense (mental and emotional) and
trying to quirkiness that makes us all different - is
the great human challenge. My path is currently
fuelled by those such as Pirsig, Dawkins and Clarissa
Estes (Women Who Run with the Wolves...Jungian analyst
and Story teller in the old, mythical way) who have
inspired me to deal with my own past and present pain as
the only way to access the depths of our inner
self.<br><br>Vaguely yours<br>Sara
Sara, I think I understand what you are saying
about pain. It seems to me that pain helps me ‘unlock’
myself; it opens a kind of sensitivity in me. Well, this
is a rather vague explanation, I’m yet to reflect on
it myself.<br><br>Diana
Thanks for this Jaoa...<br>I found it deeply sad,
but beautifully written piece.<br>COndolences to him
and all who have suffered the loss of a close loved
one.<br>Loss and suffering and how we use the deep experiences
to become bigger wiser, fuller humans is something
I've been dealing with personally too. Luckily not
through death in my family, but painful enough all the
same.<br>I am now beginning to see how pain - our own
psychic pain I mean - is something that, through dealing
with it honestly and bravely, is acually a source of
learning and deepening. <br>Sara
Hey Jaoa<br>I checked out the Tao of Poo site a
coupkle of days ago. Very sweet! I still have fond
memories or being read Poo as a child in Scotland.
<br>thanks for cheering the start to a cold dull day for
me!<br>I especially liked the intro page's example of Poo
centring his attention on his stomach asd the most
imposrtant issue of awaking. I have such existential
problems to do anything on awakening most morning
recently!<br>Websites keep me rising to the challenge of life - as does
my super real-life partner, (I think he's a teeny
bit jealous of my online
relationships!!!)<br>Bo<br>Thanks to you too for today's diversion - i finally
visited a site about Colin WIlson, who's seminal 1st work
gave me a sense of huge relief as a struggling
haphazard student in my late teenage years in Oxford...
though I did not really read it properly, the idea of
the outsider, especially the positive side of being
one (which I have felt I am since childhood!)has
remained in my core...<br><br>goodlove <br>fae Sara
For Diana: <br>As said I launched this my
"change-over-time" idea at another site but was informed that a
science-writer, Robert A. Wilson, had anticipated it by many
years. I searched for RAW on the Net and must see if it
matches mine - at least I doubt if any Pirsig/Quality
connection is to be found - and will suspend "the end of the
world" for a while :). Thanks for the interest and stand
by.<br><br>For Sara.<br>Welcome back from the Waddensee on the
"Yansa". So you did not know about Chris Pirsig? The said
afterword (written in Sweden in 1984) is to be found in the
"New Age Edition" of Bantam Books, but surely in other
editions. The afterword is too long to be copied (I have no
scanner), but your comments about crime and punishment are
very apt and explains a long way why LILA got such a
tepid/hostile reception by "intellectuals". <br><br>For
Joao<br>Regarding the bird and monkey examples I couldn't find the
source(s), but they are not important for the synchronicity
of ideas phenomenon, f.ex. Darwin and Wallace
developing the Evolution Theory in parallel.<br>Bo
Hi Bo<br>My version of ZMM did not have the
afterword you mention here. I am curious, perhaps rather
sensationally, and I know I should really concentrate on the
ideas rather than be interested in gory details, but
since the subject is opened I cant help but ask. Can
you copy or summarise it for
me?<br>--------------------<br>I was shocked and horrified to hear that Chris
was
murdered. How awful. <br><br>It must have made it difficult
to remain positive about human posential... and
perhaps explains the energetic strong argument about
eradicating the 'animal' level street gangs of inner cities
through reintroduction of police or army-type forces.
<br>Despite being fervently against martial law and diliking
police force in general, I see the logic that thugs,
hoodlums and bulies need to be forced to obey to the basic
social morals or good conduct and democracy, so we can
live together as more civilised humans, and look to
developing a more enlightened way of life. <br><br>I only
partially see Pirsig's point that the 20th century emphasis
on intellectual refutation of 19th cetury bougeois
strict and hypocritical morals led to the thughs gaining
power. <br><br>Any insights into these issues
anyone?<br>Sara
Hallo Clubbers... & Wow Joao!<br>A lot of words,
and ethusiasm, and desperation about the state of the
world - but I'm not clear about your message or
question or comments about the economic evolution.
<br>Seems to me your long list contains most of what means
life to us now - needs and epidemics, infact focussing
on the problems. Do not forget the good things we
humans have achieved with scientific, philosophical and
social development over the past 4000 years.<br>It's
easy to get lost in all the bad and depressing things,
especially as we can feel so helpless in this super
complicated western world.<br><br>I am reading a fascinating
book, which puts our personal present into the
perspective of evolution on earth.<br>'The Selfish Gene' by
Richard Dawkins (2nd edition). His enthusiasm about the
incredible results of evolution since the 1st beginnings
(molcules forming by random collisions) and the continuing
potential of life on earth is giving me hope that doom and
gloom scenarios need not overcome us!<br><br>Bo -
you'er sounding rather like a harbinger of 'end of the
world is nigh' in your posting. I hope Doom and Gloom
scenarios lift in your next posting<br><br>Hope, peace and
love brothers , sisters and quarks!<br>from an
ex-punk, non hippy, but hopefully someone on the path to
recognising that love is quality)<br><br>Sara
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