Hi Pirsig Club members.<br>As no-one else posts I
have to start talking to myself (a sure sign of old
age). In my reply to Sara (Caledonia) I touched upon
Holland's law on "assisted death" (euthanasia) which has
raised a great interest here in Norway, and a weekly
radio program called "The Value Bourse" devoted one
entire emission on it. The gathered experts were
extremely vague - naturally - because this is a terribly
sensitive area, but a philosophy worth it's pay must be
willing to say something about anything so I wrote a
letter to the said program where I made some MOQ
(Metphysics of Quality) reflections around the issue. The
following is an edited version of it: <br><br>
************<br><br>Up to now we have had a relatively simple attitude
towards the "premature death" problem, be it
self-afflicted or helped by other or - most accentuated -
sanctioned by society. It is unworthy a modern welfare
state. Full stop! Looking back on history and the
cultures when this was normal conduct, we attributed it to
the harsh conditions that made it necessary for the
individuals to yield to (the demands of) their society. This
is the rational explanation of which communism is
the epitome: The economical conditions determinate
everything, all "evaluations" are just hot air. The people of
old did not look upon it that way (naturally -
otherwise they would not have followed the tradition),
rather sacrificed themselves when their time was up
because it was considered BEST thing to do. However - as
said - by the growing humanitarian consciousness this
gradually became regarded as inhuman, something that the
welfare state was supposed to make an end to. Medical
improvements were to keep people healthy until the end and the
society would provide for all needs unto the same end.
What the end would be like wasn't exactly defined.<br>
This is a absurdly compressed version of a
many-thousand year development. There may have been societies
with no self-sacrifice however marginal the
conditions, and other that sacrificed human beings freely in
all kinds of rituals, my point is that TO THAT AGE it
was the best thing to do. Now, if we for a moment
adopt the modern premises, the ECONOMIC conditions have
altered gradually, but we of today are the first to have
changed the BIOLOGICAL course of things to an extent that
it confronts us with a new indignity: Vegetable-like
human beings tucked away in institutions who everyone
silently hope will die, but about whom everyone keep up
the verbal pretences as well as denying them death.
The much sought for medical progress has become a
nightmare, not for society which has made it an industry,
but for the individuals themselves. This is a paradox
of enormous proportions. <br> We know that paradoxes
flourish when the model one thinks along doesn't fit
observations (ref. Greek physics and its many paradoxes) This
strongly indicates that we have an outdated model of
reality and that warning bells and whistles are blaring.
<br><br> ****************<br><br>End of part 1, part 2
will follow soon.
Hi Sara and all Pirsigeans.<br>Holland seems to
be Pirsig's most fertile ground beside Scandinavia,
wonder why. It looks like a pioneer country in many
respects - the last being the euthanasia approval which I
think is a wise step, but one that our bigoted pundits
condemn out of hand: it will lead to mass murder, it
sounds. Sensitive stuff though. <br><br>Re. your
omplaints about judging things properly I don't know if the
MOQ can provide a patent tool for particular
problems, many become disappointed by such a statement, the
Quality idea sounds like such a measuring rod - but IMO:
The thing that counts is to find the MEANING to what
happens. I mean, one may suffer all kinds of
disappointments, but they are tragedies only to the point they are
regarded pointless, once one sees a meaning, everything
can be endured - even gladly. <br><br>It may sound as
if I(want to make it sound)was such a profound
thinker when young, but in a general way I was haunted by
the absurdity of what RMP calls the subject/object
metaphysics (at that time I knew of no SOM of course, but
thought it was the way reality had been created). I can't
elaborate here, but the "mind/matter"-dualism robs ALL
existence of meaning. Then I had this my quality-like
insight that at first seemed like a revelation, but
slowly scared me when meeting blank stares (I don't
blame anyone) and for years I went around with the
dread of being insane. That's why the meeting with
Pirsig was such an enormous relief; finally one other
person with ideas like my own only much clearly
expressed. In another form admittedly, but
recognizable.<br><br>And finally here is the point of my "meaning"
agument. To me ZMM - and later the fullfledged MOQ of LILA
- changed absurdity into meaning. How/why? That's
the difficult part to convey, but I will go on trying
<br><br>It's easy to sound like a guru in writing, many are
disappointed upon meeting this shy and awkward person in
real-time settings, but one of the reliefs of the MOQ is
that the intellectual (writing) me is every bit as
real as the biological and social me. Your
depreciatory description of yourself may be just the opposite;
you are possibly regarded the most outgoing and
sociable person around. Anyway the activities you tell
about sound positive and constructive
(meaningful)enough for me, particularly the restoration of the
wooden schooner and sailing with it.<br>You will be all
right Sara ...You can sort of tell these things. <br>Bo
Hi Bo<br>I agree with your description of how the
MOQ kicks the chair from under other, conventional
philosophy, i see RP as giving the beautiful framework for a
new, all- inclusive way of dealing with life. <br>As I
said earlier: I have always had problems 'judging'
things - i.e. trying to figure out if 'this' is better
than 'that'... and consequently often come to a 'brick
wall' whilelooking at my life and making decisions:
whether it is study, work, plans, people around me, love
life, it seems like everything sometimes! <br>This lack
of ability to judge situations and people,has meant
my feeling unable to continue my projects/jobs in
life, with the ultimate result in a serious personal
breakdown recently, resulting from my self-image reaching
bottom. <br>I felt like a total failure despite having
refused to set up my own 'success' to judge myself by, by
relying on others to support and direct me and living in
an 'all or nothing' outlook. My adult life has all
been about 'dynamic' bursts of energy in several
directions (from Fine Art,to wooden schooner restoration and
sailing for the last 5 years), but I seem to lack the
skills to make the necessary 'static latching' to get me
to build on my creative experiences and
achievements!<br>I guess what I'm saying is Pirsig's approach and
writing style has encouraged me to personally see the
psychological repercussions of dynamic and static quality, and
am trying to use VALUE to heal myself!<br>Anyway,I'm
now believe in the positive power of practising calm
'quality' judgement in all spheres, and am trying to get on
with living a positive, constructive life. Not at all
easy, for someone who can always find an excuse for
themselves or others around them as to why things are
happenning.<br>I FEEL that you and RP are right in saying that we
all know what is quality innately, but I'm finding it
hard to access that instinctual nature. Too much
bourgeois 'civilisation' getting in the way, probably.
<br>I'm looking for tips on how to implememt MOQ on a day
to day level. <br><br>HELP!/any ideas or thoughts
anyone?/<br><br>lots of positive vibes (as the hippies used to
say)<br><br>from Sara (alias Caledonia)
Hi Geoff and Pirsig fans.<br>Thanks for the
welcome words, the "Balasoglou" name struck a note with
me so now I remember your presence at the
moq.discuss site <br><br>Yes, the MOQ discussion soon became
terribly profound - I was possibly part of that
development even if I tried to remind people about Pirsig's
word about ....reality, which is value is understood
by every infant. <br><br>I may reveal that the
history of the LILA SQUAD and its entries is soon to be
published as a printed book: "Lila's Child" by Dan Glover
-possibly with a foreword by Robert pirsig himself. You
wrote:<br><br>>I created this group as an alternative from
>MOQ.org discussion list. <br>>I think the general aim
of this group is to >discuss at a leisurely pace
the philosophies and >ideals of RP (rather then
the somewhat >seriousness of MOQ) <br><br>I see
the Quality Metaphysics as the epitome of the
philosophy and ideal of RP, but "Zen and the Art..." (ZAMM)
seems to attract more readers than the MOQ steeped
"LILA". <br><br>>I have full repect for MOQ but I felt
it was >just a bit to advanced for a person my
age (who >has never officially studied
philosophy.).<br><br>To have studied philosphy is no prerequisite for
thinking about existence - to the contrary. In the
beginning when (completely) obsessed with Pirsig's ideas I
tried to raise the interest of the philosophy faculties
at universities, but as with bishop and saints, true
thinkers are shunned by the philosophologists. They
believe that Pirsig is another world saviour and the MOQ
another sect - "Moral Rearmament" preferably.
Understandably too, the MOQ kicks the ground off from under
academical philosophy and who wants to undermine one's means
of living?<br>Keep posting.<br>Bo
Hi Bo,<br><br>Thanks for visiting my humble
discussion group.<br><br>I created this group as an
alternative from MOQ.org discussion list. <br>I think the
general aim of this group is to discuss at a leisurely
pace the philosophies and ideals of RP (rather then
the somewhat seriousness of MOQ) <br><br>I have full
repect for MOQ but I felt it was just a bit to advanced
for a person my age (who has never officially studied
philosophy.).<br><br>I was a member for a short time. I found the list
to be interesting but some things went straight past
me.<br><br>I had read some of your work previously and in fact
I used some of your essay for an assignment I did
last year on Robert Pirsig.<br><br>I hope that you
might read this message and would like to wish you luck
on your 're-entry' onto the world of Metaphysics of
Quality.<br>In fact you could compare your re-entry with Pirsig
own re-entry in ZMM. <br><br>Well thanks for reading
and I hope we can keep discussing. There is a lot
that I could learn from you.<br><br>Geoffrey
Balasoglou
Hello "enlightenedphilosopher"<br>Congratulations
with your site which I found just recently. Being a
survivor from the original "Lila Squad" (now moq.org)and
exhausted from more that three years of intense discussion
I planned to stay away from Internet groups, but a
few months of "convalescence" and the quality feeling
have started to return. From what I have read of the
entries till now it's not been so much discussion of his
ideas as a recognition of him as a writer and that's
very well. I see no point in keeping my identity
hidden and for those who have searched the Net for info
on Pirsig may have found my essay "The Quality
Event" at
<br><br><a href=http://home.online.no/~skutvik/
target=new>http://home.online.no/~skutvik/</a><br><br>It is from 1995-6 and even
if the said discussion
have deepened my understanding in the meantime the
piece still gives a fairly good rendering of Pirsig's
MOQ. I have thought of updating/amending it, but being
rather old (compared to you seventeen - ancient) and
also trying to maintain various "motorcycles", my time
is limited.<br>Keep up the good work
Geoff.<br><br>Bodvar "Bo" Skutvik
Hallo Geoff<br>Ive been 'offline' lately due to
becoming dangerously 'off my head'... but am back to say
Hi to all Pirsig fans, as his particular
philosophical framen#work helped me through a really rough
patch in my life. I hold MOQ close to my heart as a
beautiful framework, giving meaning to life, the universe
and everything.<br>I have never had religion to
resort to in times of personal stress or crisis and find
the abstract notion of beauty, an equating with truth
and goodness in Pirsig's MOQ my way of taking things
to a higher plane.<br>Speaking of such big ideas,
have you read Sophie's World? (by Jostein Garder) I
fould it a great, fascinating and fun introduction to
the world of philosophy, by mixing an adventure story
with the history of philosophy. Check it out!
Hi caledonia1963,<br><br>Good to see that you
have finished LILA. <br>I have also been 'enlightened'
from the books of Robert Pirsig. I used the term
'enlightened' lightly just reflecting the positive results of
reading ZMM and LILA. I first read ZMM a few years ago
now when I was just 15 years old! I felt it as being
a major event in my life. Not only did it introduce
me to philosophy, it is introduced me to the world
of books. Before reading ZMM I had not read a book
over 150 pages long. I was also not very interested in
reading. But this all changed after reading ZMM and Lila.
Now being 17 I enjoy reading books by Aldous Huxley,
George Orwell and many others. Before reading ZMM my
marks for English where very low 35% even in the year
before reading ZMM. With a change of school and the
reading of ZMM my marks shot up to the high 70%s. I have
never looked back and English is now one of my top
subjects rather then my worse subject. I actually read
LILA in a lot shorter time then ZMM. I think this is
due to the fact that ZMM was by far the most
complicated book I had ever read at the time and a slogged
through it at a snail paced speed.<br><br>Although I
might not be as 'educated' in philosophy as others
older then me I still can understand at least some of
Robert Pirsig's points and philosophies. I am still the
only person in my college to have read ZMM and LILA.
When I suggest reading it they seem to be put of by
the titles for some odd reason.<br><br>Well It is
nice to see people posting again (being the founder).
Well I have to go.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Geoff
Hi discovery lover <br>I was surprised to read
that your first language is not English as you
certainly write it very well. But I guess it's hard to
tell!<br>This is such a weird was to communicate - incognito,
annonymous and as an minimal personality!<br>I think the
prusuit of knowledge is a beautiful, important and
potentially very enlightening thing, and found your being
inspired to think deeply about our world (by stdying
Pholisophy) after reading pirsig fascinating! How's it going
/what are your philosophical ideas currently???<br>I
agree with your sentiment of enjoying LILA as a whole
experience. As I hinted, I find conventional philosophy hard
to grasp and relate to and pirsigs mix of
literature, truthfull self-study and deep ideas about our
universe really spoke to me.<br>I've 'come down' a bit off
my high of last week, but am still quoting pirsig
ideas to those around me and going over the
repercussions of his 'quality' principles in my world.<br>I
have always had problems 'judging' things - ie saying
this is better than that... and consequently often
come to a 'brick wall' concerning looking at my life
and making decisions: whether it is study, work,
plans, people around me, love life, well everything
really! This has meant long-term frustration and low-self
image. <br>This is daft really - why did I feel like a
'failure' when i refused to set up a 'success' to judge
myself by!<br>I'm now starting to believe in the
positive power of being able to practise calm 'quality'
judgement in all spheres, and finally get on with a
constructive life!<br>I guess what I'm saying is Pirsig's
approach and writing style has encouraged me to personally
see the psychological repercussions of dynamic and
static quality, and am trying to use VALUE to heal
myself!<br>My adult life has all been about 'dynamic' busrts of
energy in many directiopns, for a couple of years at a
time, usually, but without the necessary 'static
latching' to get me to build on my creative
experiences!<br>(Know what I mean?!!)
Hello,<br><br>I read LILA more that 3 years ago
and then it really impressed me. For long time after
that I couldn’t help thinking of things in terms of
‘dynamic quality’ and ‘static quality’ :-)) … oops, is
that the correct translation of these terms in
English? I have the intention to reread the book in
English, right now I have only some rather vague
impressions of what I read 3 years ago…<br><br>LILA was for
me one of these books that … you can never be the
same again after you read them. It was after I read
LILA that I became confident in my decision to study
philosophy and this is what I’m doing now. <br><br>I also
remember that I enjoyed the experience itself of reading
the book. I mean it wasn’t just the ideas of his
theory that I liked but also the whole atmosphere in
which the book involves you. It’s like when you are a
child and read a child’s book and it makes you dream of
a its fanciful world and you don’t want the book to
finish.<br><br>My best regards to all of you, Pirsig fans :-)
PIRSIG chat<br>Elation! It's been a tough slog
(see my member notes for clues why!), but I've just
finished LILA after months of sporadic, but careful
reading, and the sun has suddenly broken through the
clouds of depression which have been dogging me
recently... Pirsig's brave literary attempt to honestly
describe his personal intellectual struggles in a
believable setting really get through to me, where classic
philosophers leave me cold. I'm not an academician, but try to
think about things. I first read Zen & the ... 17 years
ago, but it's only now that the pieces seem to fit
together.... I found the last few chapters of LILA
particularly riveting, partly due to my own experiences of
boating life, but more because the pieces Pirsig's theory
really come together for me and made sense in my own
world. I had the feeling of 'coming home' - where
seemingly disparate problems are explained by getting an
idea of the depth and breadth of Pirsig's theory....
Anyway, enough babbling on, hallo to other Pirsig
readers! I'd be interested to hear about your personal
experiences of how the book has affected your ideas/life...
Hi all,<br><br>I just recently discovered a
brilliant concert/jazz/classical pianoist. His name is
Keith Jarrett. <br><br>The thing that made/makes him
different from other pianoists is that he improvises some
of his work. In the now famous Koln Concert Jarrett
completely improvised all the music. Before the concert he
cleared his mind and went on to stage with not a note in
his head. Quite remarkable.<br><br>I just like to
recommend him and was also wondering if any of you have
heard of him. <br><br>If you have any musicians that
you like, feel free to post and infom us about
them.<br>Even though the title of this group is 'The Robert
Pirsig Discussion Group'. We can talk about anything in
this club.<br><br>Thanks Geoff
Hi all,<br><br>I've had an interesting page
bookmarked for a while now and I thought it my be a interest
to you. <br><br>The site has a collection of the
most insperational books, films (movies) and quotes in
the world. <br><br>At 30th place on the ranked list
of books is 'Zen and the art of Motorcycle
Maintenance' by none other then Robert Pirsig. You also have
the ability to rate the books so if all of us voted 5
for most inspirational it could push Pirsigs work up
to the top 20.<br><br>The site is worth a visit, I
will keep you posted if I see any other good
sites.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Geoff
Hello Waco,<br><br>Thanks for joining the Robert
Pirsig Discussion Group. ZMM had a great and positive
effect on my life as well. It awakened my will to read
good books and gave me an introduction into philosophy
and quality itself!!<br><br>I recently wrote a speech
about Pirsig and his works (I have lost the copy
already!) and read it to my college (americans call it
high-school) class. They seemed to have enjoyed it. I included
Robert Pirsig's feeling on the schooling system and I
think I gave my English teacher a bit of a shock as
well! <br><br>I feel that this is a more relaxed and
less intense alternative to the great www.moq.org
mailing list. Sometimes the list there gets far too
confusing and difficult for a person my age. <br>Here there
is no pressure to post and it is open to any ideas
weither dealing with Pirsigs work or just everyday
philosophy and ethics in action.<br><br>There was certain
plans of creating a movie but it fell through after
pirsig rethought about its value. I agree with Pirsig
not making a movie out of ZMM. The Movie would never
capture the feeling and philosophies of the book. The
whole story would have been dramitised into something
it wasn't and it would do nothing for the book and
Pirsig's philosophy.<br><br>Well I just like to say to our
newest member and I wish you good luck.<br><br>P.S it is
never to early to start reading complicated books to
children. Remember Pirsig was reading his 11 year old son
Walden!! Which is quite hard I have read bits of
it.<br><br>Thanks Geoff,<br>geoffb@...
Hi there everyone!<br><br>I just wanted to say
hello and introduce myself a little. <br><br>I have not
read a book that has influenced my thinking more than
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
<br><br>Recently my wife and I moved our family to Jacksonville,
Florida, USA. During the unpacking I found my copy of ZAMM
and my daughter (who is 4) saw the cover (the old
violet paperback) and immediately felt that it was a
book for girls. I explained that it was for everyone.
She has pleaded with me to read it to her. "I know
that I will just love it," she told me.
:-)<br><br>Anyway, I found that I have missed its presence in my
life and so I started looking around on the web and
found my way here. <br><br>I am interested in talking
on this site, but I fear that it has been so long
since I have read either ZAMM or Lila that my comments
would be foggy at best and inaccurate at worst. But I
will probably read the books again and post some of my
comments. <br><br>I tend to be overly reticent, but I have
also found out that I find out my true feelings in the
process of trying to convey them to
others.<br><br>Anyway, just a question to throw out for consideration.
What do you think about the (presumably defunct) movie
of ZAMM?<br><br>Thanks for your time, and thanks to
you Geoff (always my preferred spelling of the name)
for getting this
started.<br><br>Waco<br>wglennon@...
Oh, dear, I'm also sorry for this. If you think it will take you too long to
type it all again you can leave it. We can still discuss Pirsig's work on this
board.<br>Regards, Diana
I seem to have lost my computer written notes of my speech. I may still type it
all out agian from a draft I still have. Sorry for the delay.<br><br>Geoff
Thank You for your interest discoverylover. <br>I don't have a copy here at home
but I can easily post my 2 page summary or full speech when I get to school on
Monday.<br><br>Thanks Geoff
Hi everyone.<br><br>I recently presented my 20
minute Pirsig presentation and everything went well. I
felt that I left my class interested in the books that
Pirsig wrote. I kept it entertaining and added a bit of
humour to the speech. <br><br>If anyone wants to read my
speech just post it on this board.<br><br>Thanks Geoff
Hello all,<br><br>I am currently working on a
school project and was wondering if any of you could
help me.<br><br>We are doing an author seminar and
while others picked the simple on more well known
writers I picked Robert M. Pirsig. <br><br>We have to
base our 20 minute seminar on our author and his
novels (ZMM and Lila for RP.<br><br>We have to choose a
focusing question on our writer. <br><br>I have thought of
some:<br><br>'Why is his books worth reading?'<br><br>'What is the
main and minor themes of his novels?'<br><br>'Why is
his books still relevant as they were 10 to 26 years
ago?'<br><br>If you think you could add to this list I would
appreciate your questions. If you could offer any help or
knowledge of the books to me please do.<br><br>Thanks Geoff
Hi GEoff,<br><br>What is a ICQ number ?<br><br>I
think an additional potential, compared to the MOQ, and
among others of course an potential of its own, is the
online meeting opportunity we have here.<br><br>I wonder
what is happening exchange wise on Your
site.<br><br>I'd like to meet You online.<br><br>Any suggestions
?<br><br>CU Andreas
Hi Andreas,<br><br>As you might know I am the
founder of this club and I felt that there was a need to
create a informal meeting and discussion place for fans
of the writer Robert Pirsig. Living in New Zealand
makes it hard for me to talk in Real-Time because of
the time difference but if anyone want's to discuss
anything philosophical my ICQ number is
13680936.<br><br>Thank You for joining Andreas and others,<br><br>Geoff
people and pathfinders,<br><br>I would like to
chat to You all. See how is it going and what is going
on.<br><br>we are spread all over the globe. to make a start
anyway I will be online CET 20:00 till
21:00.<br><br>hope to read from You all,<br><br>Andreas
Just like to say Hi to all the new members of the club. The club has a grand
total of 5 now. Thanks xtanced for sharing us that quote. <br><br>That is all I
have time for today,<br>Thanks Geoff
Now there r 4.... "Through wisdom and
understanding, helping bring people together in the spirit of
magickal, musickal dance, while co-creating a new paradigm
that preserves dynamic quality...The eternal moment
dictated by the strange attractor!?!"......This isn't
entirely relevant, and yet I wanted to throw it out there
as an introduction and/or beginning explanation of
where I'm coming from.....ps..the moq site is mentioned
in the intro to the 25th anniversary
edition......though I didn't find it until I purchased the book again
myself.
Hi David and Simon,<br><br>Our club has only 3
members, I was wondering if you could help me increase the
number of this group by emailing friends and other
pirsig fans you know. Just tell them to visit this page
<a href=http://au.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/robertpirsig
target=new>http://au.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/robertpirsig</a><br>an ask them to
sign up for the
club.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Geoff
All,<br><br>I just thought I would mention
moq.org here for people who might stumble across this
from a search engine.<br><br>I can't believe that
moq.org has been online since '97. I've searched for an
online community based on Pirsig's work various times
since then but I always searched for "Pirsig" not
MOQ.<br><br>Now, I know better.<br><br>ds
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